Fire Emblem Tier List

[CATS]

I'd prefer not to go on a chapter-by-chapter basis here, but take Chapter 17 for example (the first chapter Sain and Serra have together after Sain re-joins). Once you've cleared off the enemies in the middle part, you can send units with higher move ahead to attract the further enemies, or to get Raven to Lucius faster or something. Those times will come.

True, I'd rather not go into specific examples either, those often get messy.

Anyways, I don't see it happening very often considering that you need your main group in order to take on the enemies. If you didn't, all the mounted units would simply be toptier and everyone else would be somewhere underneath. Sending people ahead is still only worthwhile if they can actually take down the enemies on their own, and considering that this is early HHM we're talking about, how often is that going to be the case? I suppose I'm not fully qualified to speak, though, since I haven't actually played the game in quite some time. I'll have to fire it up again and probably come back to this point.

Back to my other point about this, if you have time where your mounted guys get to just blatantly charge ahead of everyone else, Priscilla goes with them and leaves Raven and Erk and whoever else behind, so it's going to affect her supports aswell.

He doesn't have to be alone to move out of her range. Why do you think KentxSain is one of the few often assumed support pairings?

Ofcourse you wouldn't send him alone, that would be suicidal. Sending him with a buddy strikes me as only slightly less suicidal, though, remembering that it's HHM and two non-Marcus PCs cannot fight for very long on their own, at all. I suppose there may be some side areas with only a few enemies that you'd send them to or something, though I can't really think of any off the top of my head. I imagine that even then you'd want them to stay with the main group, considering they're among the better fighters you get.

...What? I don't even see how that makes sense. You said "if you sent guys like Sain ahead, Priscilla would probably go with them too anyways." This means she's doing two things better. 1) She's healing guys Serra apparently can't reach

That goes with Priscilla's higher move. We're talking about her supports, which are negatively affected by her charging ahead of the foot units she's supporting with.

2) she's building support points with Sain.

No. Wind x Wind is terrible and does nothing for either one of them. This support isn't happening.

And I already explained why the "move gap" argument doesn't apply so much to Priscilla, since she's the one with the higher move doing the healing, not the other way around.

By simply saying "If Sain uses his full move, then"

Sain is only ever using his full move when there aren't enemies in the way. Sain doesn't get to just run past the enemies, he has to stop and fight them.

On any occasion when there are no enemies in the way, there'd be no reason not to send Priscilla ahead aswell.

You misunderstood me, or maybe I didn't describe it well enough. What I mean is that we can afford to take a chapter like Genesis defensively because going very fast will likely be extremely risky. I didn't say "dilly-dally and wait for all the enemies to come to you." I just mean that there's no reason to add unnecessary risk to the game, which, from my own experience, the Tactics rank would often force you to do. It just leaves determining a reasonable turn count per chapter to us, the debaters, and not the game itself.

Cool. What's a reasonable turn count, then?

Another question. Do we assume that you're getting all the Gaidens?

Serra won't heal every turn. It's rare you can get her to heal on the first turn, for example. Oh, and you can also beat all except, like, the last two within 6 turns. (Hai there Florina on chapter 7)

It's pretty close to every turn. First turn heals can happen on some chapters, aswell. C7, for example, there's a Shaman like two squares away from your starting units.

And a lot of them are also Axe users, which 4 of your units see WTA against, and then you have people like Wil, Rath, Luciua and Erk that rarely, if ever, see counters, and even our Lance guys can equip a Javelin when they're buyable and avoid counters.

Even with WTD the enemy axe users have hit in the 40's unless you're on terrain, and all the other enemies obviously have more. And even if that's the case, then just equip a lance if it comes down to that. It does the same damage as an Iron Sword even through WTD, and it's not like Sain or Kent will be at risk of death from taking a Brigand's counter, so it's just free EXP for Serra. You shouldn't need to do that, though, as going through an entire phase of combat without any units taking any damage whatsoever, or even anyone levelling up and gaining 1 HP, is incredibly rare.

Something you also forget is that LM has a fairly low enemy count except in Chapter 9, so even if they're accurate you just might not have anyone fighting at all.

Low, but not non-existent. Someone will be fighting.

So favoritism (aka Nils being glued to Serra) is perfectly fine to apply to Serra?

Define "favoritism," and explain how Nils refreshing Serra qualifies as favoritism.

You say my fighters will get the same experience, and while that's true, I can refresh them to, you know, beat the chapter faster, or get them to a better position for enemy phase or something.

Have you played LHM? You said it yourself above. The enemy density in LHM is more than absurdly low. In some chapters you actually have less enemies than PCs, and end up with multiple attackers left over who have nothing to attack, so refreshing an attacker is often pointless. And it's not like refreshing Serra is useless anyways. Healing isn't worthless.

Refreshing people for positioning purposes alone makes no difference, as Serra also has move and needs to be positioned just like every other unit. You might as well spend your refresh re-positioning a unit who will get extra EXP in the process.

If it lets her get an extra Heal just once per map, by chapter 24 she's closed the level gap by one. I think it can do something.

It requires Serra having nothing available to heal, however. This is not often going to be the case in HHM, particularly early HHM where no one has good Avo and even Oswin is taking damage from the enemy attacks.

Earlier bonuses are better. By the time Serra's supports build, they won't be as much help because everyone will probably be promoted and already owning face, while Priscilla can at least help others while they're more vulnerable and not ORKOing everything.

Priscilla's C supports might as well not even give any bonuses. lol, 2 avo.

Serra x Lucius C happens in fewer turns than Priscilla x Anyone B and already gives out a point of Def. Priscilla's B's do give out a point of Atk aswell, but Raven doesn't care about the bonuses asmuch considering he's, what, the best fighter in the game? Top 3 atleast. Erk doesn't care about Atk either as he's already 2HKO'ing nearly anything. I guess it helps him some against some promoted magic enemies later on.

Besides just that, if Priscilla's support ranks are higher than Serra's, then the fact that less of Serra's stats come from supports would be an advantage for her anyways.

From there, I suppose it depends on how quickly you think supports build, and the possibility of slower supports than these happening. That's basically subjective, I've seen it argued all sorts of different ways. The whole "we don't care about Tactics rank and we're going to play defensively and not add unnecessary risk to the game" attitude, though, would definitely point more towards having plenty of turns to build supports.

What I did say is that Raven is much better for Lucius, and Priscilla can form a decently fast triangle with Raven and Lucius, which is awesome in itself. With this setup, Lucius will be getting +4 Def and +7 avoid. If he traded B Priscilla for B Serra, he'd get a bonus 1 Def and 5 avoid, but would be having it active less often as a result.

Why would it be active less often?

Lucius isn't used every time. All that needs to happen is for him to get bad levels in Lyn Mode, and he's out.

Sure. We were talking about Kent x Sain A support blocking Serra from getting an A with Sain, though, and this is irrelevant to that.

You forgot Crit, and Hit, something that Sain actually does need on occasion.

And you forgot that Serra's affinity also gives full crit.

Are you seriously going to argue Hit > Avo?

SerraxLucius B: +1 atk, +2 Def, +5 avoid, +5 Hit, +10 crit, +5 Dodge

PriscillaxErk A: +1 atk, +1 Def, +7 avoid, +7 Hit, +15 crit, +5 dodge

Looks fairly similar to me. And Serra's fastest A's take like 45 turns more than Priscilla's, so they're not happening in enough time to really make a difference.

1 Def > 2 Avo

5 Crit and especially 2 Hit is almost totally irrelevant.

Guy, Lucius, Sain, Oswin, and Heath all respect the bonuses for varying reasons.

Guy likes the Atk that he gets, especially considering how garbage the rest of his list is, yeah. On the other hand, the support is considerably worse for Priscilla than Raven / Erk. So overall it's likely not helping her case much. I guess it comes into play during times when Erk isn't being used.

Serra is a better partner for Lucius than Priscilla, same thing with Sain, so w/e.

Oswin doesn't care too much about the bonuses he gets from Priscilla. He doesn't need more defense or attack. He already has high attack and over 9000 defense. The only way he could improve significantly would be to get more AS and move, which unfortunately aren't offered by supports. I guess the extra Def and Avo helps him against promoted magic enemies later on, but still, he easily cares about support bonuses less than nearly every other character. Plus, as with Guy, the support is worse for Priscilla anyways.

[Florete]

I don't have time to respond to everything now. If no one else posts before I get back, I'll edit this post with more, but for now:

Cool. What's a reasonable turn count, then?

It depends on the chapter itself. Enemies, collectibles, recrutiable characters, etc. all affect what our turn count will turn out to be.

Another question. Do we assume that you're getting all the Gaidens?

I don't know about everyone else, but I always assume all of them except 19xx because its requirements are just too ridiculous. Even if you get Nils to lv 7 in LM (which is unlikely as is), killing Kishuna in one turn is a major pain in the ass.

[CATS]

Well, sorry to make you post again, but I'm just going to address these again before I go to bed.

It depends on the chapter itself. Enemies, collectibles, recrutiable characters, etc. all affect what our turn count will turn out to be.

Ofcourse. What I mean is that since you are ignoring the Tactics Rank, there are no objective guidelines to determine how quickly you finish the chapter. Player A might be finishing a certain chapter in 20 turns and building 8 support turns during the chapter while Player B is more aggressive, lets Bartre or someone die and doesn't care, finishes the same chapter in 15 turns and only builds 5 support turns during that time.

I was wondering if we might be able to lay down some atleast semi-agreed turn counts to help with supports and such. This would probably require multiple people playing through HHM and offering their turn counts, though, so meh, it probably will never happen.

I don't know about everyone else, but I always assume all of them except 19xx because its requirements are just too ridiculous. Even if you get Nils to lv 7 in LM (which is unlikely as is), killing Kishuna in one turn is a major pain in the ass.

Very true.

What's everyone else think about 19xx, and Gaidens in general?

[Raven]

Well, sorry to make you post again, but I'm just going to address these again before I go to bed.

Ofcourse. What I mean is that since you are ignoring the Tactics Rank, there are no objective guidelines to determine how quickly you finish the chapter. Player A might be finishing a certain chapter in 20 turns and building 8 support turns during the chapter while Player B is more aggressive, lets Bartre or someone die and doesn't care, finishes the same chapter in 15 turns and only builds 5 support turns during that time.

I was wondering if we might be able to lay down some atleast semi-agreed turn counts to help with supports and such. This would probably require multiple people playing through HHM and offering their turn counts, though, so meh, it probably will never happen.

Very true.

What's everyone else think about 19xx, and Gaidens in general?

On Gaiden chapters, I believe every Gaiden chapter has reasonable prerequisites to unlock them, all except 19xx.

[Vykan12]

I was wondering if we might be able to lay down some atleast semi-agreed turn counts to help with supports and such.

Dondon has some.

What's everyone else think about 19xx, and Gaidens in general?

You play them if the benefits of extra exp + items gained outweighs the turns lost. In earlygame passing up gaidens is foolish, though not so much later on.

[dondon151]

Back to my other point about this, if you have time where your mounted guys get to just blatantly charge ahead of everyone else, Priscilla goes with them and leaves Raven and Erk and whoever else behind, so it's going to affect her supports aswell.

Even if Priscilla can't do both at the same time, she has the option of doing either one of them, which is superior to not having both options.

Sain is only ever using his full move when there aren't enemies in the way. Sain doesn't get to just run past the enemies, he has to stop and fight them.

He could run past them. If Sain doesn't ORKO his opponents, chances are your infantry units can catch up next turn and finish them off, leaving Sain to run forward some more.

Have you played LHM? You said it yourself above. The enemy density in LHM is more than absurdly low. In some chapters you actually have less enemies than PCs, and end up with multiple attackers left over who have nothing to attack, so refreshing an attacker is often pointless. And it's not like refreshing Serra is useless anyways. Healing isn't worthless.

Healing 1 HP is rather worthless. Healing insignificant amounts of HP (i.e. unit goes from getting 5RKOd to 4RKOd but there aren't 4 enemies around) is also rather worthless.

Refreshing people for positioning purposes alone makes no difference, as Serra also has move and needs to be positioned just like every other unit. You might as well spend your refresh re-positioning a unit who will get extra EXP in the process.

Again, maximizing EXP is not the goal.

Priscilla's C supports might as well not even give any bonuses. lol, 2 avo.

1 atk, 5 crit for C Lucius and 5 crit for C Erk are bonuses... C Raven is the shittiest one of them all but it's happening because Raven has no one better to support and it's fast.

Besides just that, if Priscilla's support ranks are higher than Serra's, then the fact that less of Serra's stats come from supports would be an advantage for her anyways.

This is kind of bullshit. Priscilla has superior or equal mag and def even with a level disadvantage, and this logic in itself is pretty flawed if supports are assumed to be in play.

Serra is a better partner for Lucius than Priscilla, same thing with Sain, so w/e.

I guess you missed what I said about support triangles being favorable, since you don't have to drag 4 units around, 2 of which are giving and receiving half bonuses because their support slots aren't full.

[CATS]

Even if Priscilla can't do both at the same time, she has the option of doing either one of them, which is superior to not having both options.

Correct, she has to pick one or the other. Either she goes ahead and leaves her supports behind, or she doesn't. You can't have it both ways. I don't particularly care which one it is, I'd just like for us to pick one so we can get on with things.

He could run past them. If Sain doesn't ORKO his opponents, chances are your infantry units can catch up next turn and finish them off, leaving Sain to run forward some more.

Oh, I see your point. We'll have Sain rushing ahead every turn and trying to run past all the the enemies, on HHM. He'll die, and then Serra can't support him! Brilliant, I must say.

Healing 1 HP is rather worthless. Healing insignificant amounts of HP (i.e. unit goes from getting 5RKOd to 4RKOd but there aren't 4 enemies around) is also rather worthless.

Refreshing an attacker who has nothing to attack is more pointless. Refreshing Serra atleast gets you EXP.

Again, maximizing EXP is not the goal.

It doesn't particularly matter what the goal is, since refreshing Serra isn't affecting anything else.

1 atk, 5 crit for C Lucius and 5 crit for C Erk are bonuses... C Raven is the shittiest one of them all but it's happening because Raven has no one better to support and it's fast.

Lucius x Priscilla isn't happening.

5 crit is even more lulzy than 2 avo.

This is kind of bullshit. Priscilla has superior or equal mag and def even with a level disadvantage, and this logic in itself is pretty flawed if supports are assumed to be in play.

Mag doesn't matter until they promote. Mend becomes buyable soon after Priscilla joins, and that's easily healing pretty much anyone to full HP, and since we're ignoring Funds rank you'll be using Mend all the time anyways if only for the slightly higher EXP gain. L9 Serra has the same Mag as base Priscilla anyway and a higher growth. If you want to go with Red Fox of Fire's 620 EXP thing, then Serra is L7 and has 1 point less Mag. Oh noes.

Superior or equal def? No, not at all. Base Priscilla is 16 HP, 3 Def, 6 Res. Base Serra is 17 HP, 2 Def, 5 Res. They're nearly the same at base, so there's no way Priscilla wins even with a level disadvantage. L7 Serra is 20 HP, 2.9 Def, 8.3 Res. L9 is 21 HP, 3.2 Def, 9.4 Res. Serra has more Avo too, for whatever that's worth.

How is this logic flawed? Stats that come from supports are not always present. Stats that come from, well, stats, are. This has always been a point, it's just that it's usually cancelled out by the fact that whoever has higher support ranks is also giving more bonuses to other people. Since Red kept saying "Giving bonuses > not," I figured I'd bring it up.

I guess you missed what I said about support triangles being favorable, since you don't have to drag 4 units around, 2 of which are giving and receiving half bonuses because their support slots aren't full.

You said something about having those three units functioning as a group. It's HHM and Lucius / Priscilla have negative durability, Raven is better off, but he's still very, very mortal. When is it going to be a good idea to send the 3 of them off away from the main group?

Anyways, if triangles are so valuable, Serra can hit one up with Oswin and Hector. This makes way more sense than a Lucius / Priscilla / Raven triangle considering that Oswin and Hector actually have def and might actually be able to hold their own away from the main group. The C's with Serra give practically the same bonuses as Priscilla's two B's (Priscilla's supports just give some extra Atk which barely matters), they just happen slower.

Or really not that much slower, considering that Serra can begin these supports in C12, while Priscilla's supports with Lucius and Raven can't start until Whereabouts Unknown. That's, what, 6 chapters that Serra gets to build supports before Priscilla can start? Indeed. Serra's Hector and Oswin supports are 66 and 71 turns to C, while Priscilla's Raven support is 48 turns to B and her Lucius support is 38 turns to even a C, 78 to a B. That's a 18 turn gap between Serra x Hector C and Priscilla x Raven B. So Serra just needs on average 3 support turns per chapter, and the gap closes. Then C Oswin is actually happening well before Priscilla x Lucius B.

Edited August 1, 2009 by CATS

[dondon151]

I'm running short on time here, but you're severely overestimating the quality of HHM enemies. By midgame Sain has no trouble going off on his own, and by on his own I mean accompanied by an entourage of any number of the 4 other cavaliers and paladins at your disposal. Likewise, after promotion Lucius is durable enough to not get 2RKOd by the toughest enemies around (Steel Lance WKs); in fact, I posted earlier that the more common enemies like Steel Bow archers and Steel Sword mercs can't even 3RKO Lucius. This gives him and Priscilla enough leeway to be attacked a couple of times on enemy phase. Also, neither of them need to be exposed to attacks in order to be near enough to support Raven.

You also don't seem to understand that giving free turns to Serra means that the player takes longer to complete the chapter. This is an instance that demonstrates why we abandoned ranked play tier lists, because maximizing EXP does not allow the player to maximize turn count

Edited August 1, 2009 by dondon151

[CATS]

I'm running short on time here, but you're severely overestimating the quality of HHM enemies. By midgame Sain has no trouble going off on his own, and by on his own I mean accompanied by an entourage of any number of the 4 other cavaliers and paladins at your disposal.

Define "midgame." Also, how fast is Sain building up his level when we use this logic:

You don't need to abuse Marcus in the first place to fulfill the tactics rank; if anything, you're encouraged to use Marcus more now because there's no EXP rank.

In other words, having Marcus eat up all the EXP during early chapters.

You also don't seem to understand that giving free turns to Serra means that the player takes longer to complete the chapter.

This isn't true. Not always, at the very least. For example the last turn of C8, when all the enemies are dead and you've reached the boss. Lyn is going to one-round that boss without needing any help from any of your other attackers, so you might as well just refresh Serra to heal something twice before killing the boss.

Anyways, what happened to this:

I've never understood why dancer units are rated so highly, especially the ones that can only refresh one unit per turn. One extra player phase means rather little when a larger percentage of the game progresses on enemy phase.

Do dancer units suddenly make a huge difference in LHM, despite the fact that it's about 1000 times easier than HHM?

This whole discussion brings a lot of questions about LHM to the table.

Do you try to absolutely maximize your turn count in LHM, no matter what? I would assume so because that makes it easier to argue Priscilla > Serra.

Do you give any thought to preparing for HHM while in LHM, such as giving kills to Erk before Wil? If so, to what extent? Would you be willing to take one extra turn in a LHM chapter so that Kent can kill off a couple more enemies and get another level before going into HHM?

Do you use the LHM stat boosters?

Does anyone skip LHM?

[dondon151]

Define "midgame." Also, how fast is Sain building up his level when we use this logic:

You don't need to abuse Marcus in the first place to fulfill the tactics rank; if anything, you're encouraged to use Marcus more now because there's no EXP rank.

In other words, having Marcus eat up all the EXP during early chapters.

Does using Titania prevent Boyd, Ike, Oscar, etc. from leveling up? Does using Seth prevent Vanessa, Joshua, Lute, etc. from leveling up? If you seriously think that using Marcus significantly slows down the EXP gain of other combat units, then you're not playing efficiently - in this case you're trying to solo chapters with Marcus which is clearly not the most efficient way to clear a chapter.

Sain can be promoted by chapter 24, maybe even earlier. Midgame is around that time.

This isn't true. Not always, at the very least. For example the last turn of C8, when all the enemies are dead and you've reached the boss. Lyn is going to one-round that boss without needing any help from any of your other attackers, so you might as well just refresh Serra to heal something twice before killing the boss.

Or you can have Lyn kill the boss and seize the throne/gate on the same turn.

Anyways, what happened to this:

I've never understood why dancer units are rated so highly, especially the ones that can only refresh one unit per turn. One extra player phase means rather little when a larger percentage of the game progresses on enemy phase.

Do dancer units suddenly make a huge difference in LHM, despite the fact that it's about 1000 times easier than HHM?

Despite what you think, I'm not contradicting myself. The argument here is not how significant dancer utility is to completing chapters more efficiently. The argument here is whether dancer utility is better put to use clearing a chapter more quickly or feeding EXP to a unit that really doesn't care too much about EXP.

This whole discussion brings a lot of questions about LHM to the table.

I assume you meant minimize turn count, and most of the time I skip LM because I don't have the time or patience to sit through those chapters.

Edited August 2, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

What the hell are you getting at with LHM, anyway? I don't see how Nils would be wanted more there any more than he is anywhere else: Especially since playing for ranks in LHM is silly [We're REALLY not going to use the robe and ring? I mean, REALLY?]

Do you use the LHM stat boosters?

Does anybody seriously not?

Edited August 2, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Quintessence]

I think any free help/booster is really useful, but it is not only that, LHM is important to have a better manipulation on Lyn specially, and other units you're interested in. Also it makes part of the game and it's important to play LHM to know the entire story and development of the game.

[Mekkah]

Lyn Mode stat boosters should always be used. The only reason not to is to promote Kent, Sain or Wallace there, since then you're going to have funds issues (which matters in a way because then Lyn goes from carrying a White to a Red Gem), but even that isn't a very big problem, and prepromoting Cavs isn't that awesome anyway unless you're going to advocate Lundgren abuse.

Giving the robe and the ring to someone like Erk or Matthew is going to help you a lot early on though, essentially allows them to take an extra hit and deal 4 more damage per doubling round (which is on about everything). Someone like Lyn or Florina works too, but they come later, during a less difficult part.

[CATS]

Or you can have Lyn kill the boss and seize the throne/gate on the same turn.

No, the goal in C8 is simply defeat enemy.

What the hell are you getting at with LHM, anyway?

I'm not necessarily "getting at" anything, I'm just curious. I mean, if people usually skip it for example, that would affect the placement of units such as Kent and Sain.

Lyn Mode stat boosters should always be used. The only reason not to is to promote Kent, Sain or Wallace there, since then you're going to have funds issues (which matters in a way because then Lyn goes from carrying a White to a Red Gem), but even that isn't a very big problem, and prepromoting Cavs isn't that awesome anyway unless you're going to advocate Lundgren abuse.

Well, in a mindset which is allowing Dart into High Tier, I imagine that getting a better Gem in HHM is not worth much of anything.

As for prepromoting a Cav, I dunno. 10/1 Sain has pretty similar bases to Marcus, who is apparently the best unit in the game. Sain loses in Str, Spd and Def by fractional amounts, and then Marcus just has a few points of HP, 5 or so Res, and a ton of Skl. Marcus has time to gain some levels before Sain shows up, but they're not doing him much good considering how shitty his growths are. Meanwhile, Sain has much better growths, so he'll catch up to Marcus's stats as you keep playing, maybe surpass him later on, too lazy to go check, nor am I really sure what endgame levels might look like.

On the other hand, if you're playing to finish LHM chapters in 4 turns and such, as is apparently the case, you're probably not getting anyone to L10 anyways.

[Mekkah]

Well, in a mindset which is allowing Dart into High Tier, I imagine that getting a better Gem in HHM is not worth much of anything.

I don't agree with Dart in High tier, but that's mostly because his start is quite bad.

As for prepromoting a Cav, I dunno. 10/1 Sain has pretty similar bases to Marcus, who is apparently the best unit in the game.

Marcus is also being the best unit during some of the most difficult chapters in the game. And don't forget about his higher weapon levels, and Sain loses hit by significant amounts due to 8 skl vs 15 and Marcus having 15% higher growth, which impacts his ability to use things like hand weapons as effectively.

[CATS]

Oh, don't worry, I'm not trying to argue Sain > Marcus at all. I just think that if Marcus is the best unit, then prepromoting a Cav in LHM to get another similar unit might be an idea worth considering.

[Dat Nick]

I don't agree with Dart in High tier, but that's mostly because his start is quite bad.

I think his analogy was closer to "In a mindset that isn't penalizing Dart for funds rank"

[dondon151]

If you say 10/1 Sain has similar bases to Marcus, then 10/0 Sain can afford to go off on his own as soon as he joins

[Florete]

Here's another can of worms: Why is Nino the worst character in the game, and to add to that, a full tier below the next? I know we don't usually count recruitment cost against a character, but is forcing us to use a bad character (Bartre) and then sucking on the field as a result really better than getting 5 quick levels and healbotting? Nino even happens to be forced on Night of Farewells, and it shouldn't take a whole lot to get her to level 10 so she can promote and use staves. And if the problem is a promotion item, you'd have to argue that 4 other magic users are in play at once, since 4 Guiding Rings are available by the time Nino can use one, and also 2 Earth Seals, one acquired at the end of Battle Before Dawn.

The only one in between them is Wil, but I haven't looked into his performance enough to make an accurate judgement on him. Still, as much as I do like Karla as a character, she's just terrible as a unit. At least Nino can find some value.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Dat Nick]

but is forcing us to use a bad character (Bartre)

It was argued already: Bartre doesn't suck so bad as he stops being doubled after earlygame. Most latergame enemies can only SOMETIMES double base Bartre.

[CATS]

Eh, I don't really see Nino even getting 5 levels in NoF. She's just that pitiful. She won't be making any kills unless you set them up for her, and with her 5 move I imagine it would be tough for her to keep up with everyone else. I guess more experienced players can make their own calls on that, though. I won't pretend that I've ever actually tried to give her any levels, so I'm not sure how difficult it would actually be.

I do remember there being a ton of slots open for VoD. Perhaps Nino could be put in there, get a few random levels, promote, and at least do something. On the other hand, there might be enough prepromoted filler units such as Vaida and Jaffar to edge Nino out of a spot. I'm too lazy to go and count them up or something, though.

And yeah, as Norton said, Mekkah made an argument earlier in the topic about how getting Bartre to 10/5 isn't much of a hassle. Considering how much earlier Bartre joins, it's likely easier to give him those levels than it is to give Nino 5 levels, so I suppose if I had to choose, Karla wins. I can agree with removing the tier gap between them though, as they're both just painfully and utterly worthless in general.

As for Wil, I think he's easily better than Nino. Joining so much earlier on a similar level makes him far more usable when he shows up. I do find it odd that Karla is ranked above him, though. I mean, at the very least, Wil is present in NLoC and can support Kent/Sain/Lyn with some chip damage in that chapter. Whereas you probably aren't going to even bother to recruit Karla.

[Florete]

So Bartre isn't terrible. But he's still a low tier unit, and I'd argue it's actually easier to get Nino 5 levels than to give Bartre 8+4 for a few reasons:

1. Bartre is taking experience when other units need it a lot more, and if he isn't used past 10/5 that can all be seen as experience Karla took from the early game team. Nino doesn't do that, she takes it when everyone is already awesome. If Bartre is actually in play, this isn't such a big deal, but we're discussing Karla's tier position, not Bartre's.

2. Nino is getting much more experience per hit and kill when she joins than Bartre was, so she won't need to be fed for very long.

3. Nino has much more reliable 2 range to get the experience without actually getting in the way.

[-Cynthia-]

Here's another can of worms: Why is Nino the worst character in the game, and to add to that, a full tier below the next? I know we don't usually count recruitment cost against a character, but is forcing us to use a bad character (Bartre) and then sucking on the field as a result really better than getting 5 quick levels and healbotting? Nino even happens to be forced on Night of Farewells, and it shouldn't take a whole lot to get her to level 10 so she can promote and use staves. And if the problem is a promotion item, you'd have to argue that 4 other magic users are in play at once, since 4 Guiding Rings are available by the time Nino can use one, and also 2 Earth Seals, one acquired at the end of Battle Before Dawn.

The only one in between them is Wil, but I haven't looked into his performance enough to make an accurate judgement on him. Still, as much as I do like Karla as a character, she's just terrible as a unit. At least Nino can find some value.

If we're not counting recruitment cost against a character, we don't care about the whole training Bartre to get Karla thing. If we apply it in her case, we have to apply it to everyone, or it's a double standard.

Karla starts off promoted, so she's less terrible than Nino at jointime.

[Dat Nick]

If we apply it in her case, we have to apply it to everyone, or it's a double standard.

Nobody else in that particular scenario is forcing themselves to be used. It would be rather silly not to consider it.

Edited August 3, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[_____]

Nobody else in that particular scenario is forcing themselves to be used. It would be rather silly not to consider it.

Karel and Harken, perhaps? Geitz and Wallace?