Fire Emblem Tier List

[-Cynthia-]

Nobody else in that particular scenario is forcing themselves to be used. It would be rather silly not to consider it.

But then we should consider things like if Karel is in play Harken can't be used, or the opportunity cost of using Wallace etc. etc. I'm actually in favor of including recruitment requirements as part of a character's tier standing, but Vykan disagreed with me and that's what the Tier list FAQ says. Tier lists only considers a character's contributions once they are recruited.

Bartre doesn't have to be that high level to deal with Karla anyway, Swordreaver+ Iron Rune does most of the work.

[Florete]

For the most part, I do find recruitment requirements a non issue. Karel is worse than Harken, but he's still fairly decent. I don't know about Wallace, but I think he's low enough anyway. The game throws you quite a lot of money, so Dart and Farina's cost is hardly anything.

But Karla? Forcing us to use a Low tier character earlier on is not good. If Bartre isn't assumed to be in play, which is usually the case, then all he does can be put on her, which is the experience and promotion item he takes, and also his extra performance (since he'd at least be used somewhat as a result of being forced for a few maps).

[Dat Nick]

Karel and Harken, perhaps? Geitz and Wallace?

We don't HAVE to use Karel and or Wallace if we take them over Geitz and Harken.

We have to use Bartre. It's far different.

But then we should consider things like if Karel is in play Harken can't be used, or the opportunity cost of using Wallace etc. etc.

My honest opinion? It should be considered, as it's a negative that comes with them and should be held against them, not like we're going to chuck Karel to bottom tier again over it.

[CATS]

Agreed that recruitment costs should be considered. The team that uses Karla will have lower levels than the team which doesn't, due to feeding EXP to Bartre. Or the team that uses Karla just uses Bartre, which is still a pretty big negative when there's tons of better units I could've used in that slot. I don't really see how this can be ignored, as it is a direct result of the decision to use Karla.

I suppose it is ultimately the TC's decision, though.

Edited August 4, 2009 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

If there is an opportunity cost, it shouldn't be considered huge just because Bartre sucks. What if Bartre was an awesome unit? The opportunity cost would still exist.

[Dat Nick]

If Bartre was awesome chances are he'd be likely to be on our team and thus we wouldn't care so much.

[dondon151]

If Bartre were the second best character in the game and if he were necessary to recruit Karla, then Karla would get credit for his awesomeness, right? Just like how the actual Karla is (according to some) penalized for Bartre's crappiness?

I also think Wil is too low. He's not that much different from Rebecca, but he doesn't have to put up with early chapters of being one of the least durable units on the team.

Edited August 4, 2009 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

Rebecca's Spd growth is 20% higher and she has 1 more Spd at base, I think that might make the difference bewtween doubling and not doubling.

[Dat Nick]

If Bartre were the second best character in the game and if he were necessary to recruit Karla, then Karla would get credit for his awesomeness, right?

...Why would she? If Bartre were second best character in the game, we'd probably be fielding him anyway without giving two damns about what to do with Karla later.

Just like how the actual Karla is (according to some) penalized for Bartre's crappiness?

Um, yeah. Bartre sucks forever. He needs EXP to function and even when he gets it he will never EVER EVER one round anything ever. We have to baby his ass to a respectable level and have him chug a promo item that could have gone to somebody else earlier. That's a problem. It's silly to think it's anything but, and we're not just going to brush it aside because "We're talking about Karla".

Edited August 4, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[dondon151]

Wil loses at his join time when he can't double enemies (they're not weighed down generally), but starting at like chapter 22 (enemies have 6-8 AS), Wil beats Rebecca by like 4-6 damage per round of combat.

[Raven]

I've abolished Bottom Tier and moved Nino and Wil above Karla. Judging by what is said here,

I do personally think that requirements to recruit a unit are to be considered, but second in importance to the unit's usefulness as a whole.

My opinion in this whole "raising a rubbish unit to get a rubbish unit" Karla and Bartre situation is a good point that has been raised... Bartre, not the worst character, may not be able to double for shit, to get him to xx/05 requires him to be favoured and babied because of his lack of speed. It is this which makes it more difficult to get him to Lv5 promoted and to unlock Karla.

Karla in herself is a pretty awful unit and doesn't deserve to be outside of the low tier, but when coupled with the fact you need to favour a slow-ass unit to get enough experience to actually unlock her in the first place... It makes sense to me, anyway.

[dondon151]

...Why would she? If Bartre were second best character in the game, we'd probably be fielding him anyway without giving two damns about what to do with Karla later.

Um, yeah. Bartre sucks forever. He needs EXP to function and even when he gets it he will never EVER EVER one round anything ever. We have to baby his ass to a respectable level and have him chug a promo item that could have gone to somebody else earlier. That's a problem. It's silly to think it's anything but, and we're not just going to brush it aside because "We're talking about Karla".

So you're saying that if Bartre's bad and we have to use him to recruit Karla, then it's a point against her, but if he's good and we have to use him to recruit Karla, then it's not a point for her?

Here's the situation that we have: you and a few others believe that Karla should be penalized because she requires a unit that reduces efficiency to be played (I don't buy into this line of logic but w/e). What if Bartre increased efficiency rather than reduced it? Then, Karla requires a unit that increases efficiency to be played, but you evidently don't think that she deserves any credit for that. Why the double standard?

Let's reverse the situation in a different way. What if Karla joined in chapter 31x and turned the rest of the game into a total blowout? Let's say that Karla is still considered to be penalized for forcing Bartre to be played. Then, does Bartre also get partial credit for recruiting Karla? If a unit doesn't get credit for recruiting other characters (this is a precedent set in the FE9 tier list IIRC when someone tried to credit Ike with the performance of like a third of the characters in the game), then why should a unit be penalized for needing to be recruited by other characters?

To respond to your gripe about the promotion item, Bartre doesn't take a Hero Crest away from anyone else in a crucial timeframe because the criteria is that he promotes and reaches level 5 before like the third to last chapter in the game.

Edited August 4, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

...Why would she? If Bartre were second best character in the game, we'd probably be fielding him anyway without giving two damns about what to do with Karla later.

Um, yeah. Bartre sucks forever. He needs EXP to function and even when he gets it he will never EVER EVER one round anything ever. We have to baby his ass to a respectable level and have him chug a promo item that could have gone to somebody else earlier. That's a problem. It's silly to think it's anything but, and we're not just going to brush it aside because "We're talking about Karla".

So you're saying that if Bartre's bad and we have to use him to recruit Karla, then it's a point against her, but if he's good and we have to use him to recruit Karla, then it's not a point for her?

Here's the situation that we have: you and a few others believe that Karla should be penalized because she requires a unit that reduces efficiency to be played (I don't buy into this line of logic but w/e). What if Bartre increased efficiency rather than reduced it? Then, Karla requires a unit that increases efficiency to be played, but you evidently don't think that she deserves any credit for that. Why the double standard?

It's not a double standard. Recruiting Karla isn't a requirement to using Bartre, so if Bartre were awesome, we'd use him because he's awesome. Karla wouldn't get the credit because she's just a result of using him. Since he's bad, she turns into the result of forcing us to use a bad character. CATS said it earlier. The team that recruits Karla is weaker than the team that doesn't because the team that recruited Karla had to level Bartre to 10/5. Recruitment costs are generally thrown out in most cases because there isn't a single recruitment that does something like this to the team, at least not one I can think of.

[Vykan12]

If having to use Bartre is held against Karel, don't make it a major point at least. Nothing's more aggravating than a character's placement being heavily based on something that has so little to do with what they provide when in play.

And besides, Bartre only needs to reach lv 10/5, and he has an earlygame rather similar to Dorcas. It's not going to be that big of a hindrance to use him.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Vykan12

[Mekkah]

Some semi-objective banter on the matter.

And besides, Bartre only needs to reach lv 10/5, and he has an earlygame rather similar to Dorcas. It's not going to be that big of a hindrance to use him.

There's a big difference between them. Dorcas joins with a whopping 3 more base Spd (never mind any 20% procs he got during Lyn Mode). The gap between 6 and 3 AS means that anything between 7 and 9 AS is going to double Bartre and single Dorcas. Brigands and Cavaliers, in particular, are so much more threatening to Bartre. Of course Bartre has 40% Spd growth, but still, Dorcas' earlygame is only really awesome because of his decent base Spd.

Anyway, I can see Bartre getting to L10 through his forced use + a little bit more, but considering how slow EXP gain is he has to be almost a permanent member of the team to reach 10/5, and it's easier to do it earlier than later because a 10/1 Bartre is obviously going to be pretty damn annoying to feed kills to. Not just minimal kills either, but think 10 EXP per kill, mostly, for 4 level-ups. Then again, he prolly gains about as much by hitting as by killing. His main problem will obviously be his hit. ~24 base hit, so just short of 100 hit with Iron Axe. Then again enemy avo is dick except for fast swordies, and he has bows, so meh.

Overall, if having to train up Bartre to recruit Karla goes against her, we must also consider things like Nino's chance to get killed before we can recruit her (the monk she fights had 2% to critkill her in my playthrough). Or Jaffar's, seeing as he likes to run into Swordreavers blindly if his health is high enough.

People who think Nino > Karla also seem to forget to consider the huge amount of 3~10 ranged attacks in Night of Farewells that she can easily get killed by (or Ursula in her joining chapter), or the fact that fliers can pick her off and it's hard for her to go somewhere due to the 1-tile wide paths through the water that sometimes disappear. And then in Cog of Destiny she has trouble doing more than 5 damage to most enemies. Meanwhile Bartre's durability is on par with most people on the team the moment he stops getting doubled, and his atk is actually on the high end.

And of course we have to question how much more useful Nino's 10.5 mag healing with E staves is at 10/1. Healing is only useful in so far it allows other characters to take on more enemies without having to retreat and heal themselves, or hog attention from Pent or some other healer. But given the amount of protection Nino needs with her 25 hp/8 def/14 AS/40 avo, units might prefer using two vulneraries over getting healed by Nino, since you can use vulneraries in whatever situation you want, whereas if Nino heals you you're forced to build a wall of meat around her. I'd rather give up one or two player phase attacks than that, especially if you can kill enemies on enemy phase just as well as on player phase.

And then consider Karla's own fighting prowess. Yes, they exist. She has 21 atk/18 AS with a Killing Edge, and 55% crit (30 KE, 10 skl, 15 class). ~80% chance of killing at least once in two attacks. 30% of twice. Granted, she has issues damaging things even with one crit, but some things just don't go down easily.

For example, this 54 hp/10 def Warrior takes 12 damage from a normal attack by Karla, 36 from a crit, 48 from crit+hit, so anyone would be able to pick him off after one crit, and he's dead with two. It requires 38 atk and 15 AS for a clean 2HKO. Even some offensive monster with Silver Axe needs 23 str for that, which even Geitz, for example, won't have until 20/10 or so.

About the same goes for Wyverns and Paladins. She only needs one crit for most other enemy types. Heroes she likely needs two crits, but she's probably one of the few who can double those (15-16 Spd and 10 con, but they have large weapon variety, like 12 wt Silver Axes).

That's much easier to turn into a positive contribution than Nino, imo.

Edited August 4, 2009 by Mekkah

[Dat Nick]

So you're saying that if Bartre's bad and we have to use him to recruit Karla, then it's a point against her, but if he's good and we have to use him to recruit Karla, then it's not a point for her?

No, it's not a point for her for the reason that Bartre would be likely to be used anyway if he was good.

Why the double standard?

What double standard? If Bartre was the second best unit as you hypothetically stated he was, he'd probably be in play anyway, and we certainly wouldn't be using him just to get Karla.

Let's reverse the situation in a different way. What if Karla joined in chapter 31x and turned the rest of the game into a total blowout?

It's pretty much already a total blowout, but whatever. Let's go along with the goddess!Karla theory for a second: Yeah, the hassle of training Bartre's failure ass MIGHT be worth it if Endgame wasn't already a joke.

Then, does Bartre also get partial credit for recruiting Karla?

Are we talking about god-Bartre or crap-Bartre here?

If crap-Bartre, the negatives might actually be outweighing the payoff here.

If a unit doesn't get credit for recruiting other characters

Of course you realize this is a totally different issue. Eliwood can recruit Harken even at base level. Matthew can recruit Guy even at base level. Florina can be deployed to recruit Fiora and do absolutley nothing else for the rest of the game. Bartre has to be trained just to survive against Karla, I don't see why you're comparing the scenarios.

To respond to your gripe about the promotion item, Bartre doesn't take a Hero Crest away from anyone else in a crucial timeframe because the criteria is that he promotes and reaches level 5 before like the third to last chapter in the game.

Weren't you making a big deal about Nino having to use a promotion item earlier? You wanna explain how this logic doesn't apply to Bartre?

[Rodykitty]

I would treat Karla just like a crappy unit that you get early on that you level for mediocre results, because that's pretty much what she is, around 15 levels or something of EXP to get the stats she has. This would be the penalty Karla has regardless of Bartre's performance, and for Bartre, his suckitude falls on himself.

[CATS]

There's a big difference between them. Dorcas joins with a whopping 3 more base Spd (never mind any 20% procs he got during Lyn Mode). The gap between 6 and 3 AS means that anything between 7 and 9 AS is going to double Bartre and single Dorcas. Brigands and Cavaliers, in particular, are so much more threatening to Bartre. Of course Bartre has 40% Spd growth, but still, Dorcas' earlygame is only really awesome because of his decent base Spd.

Anyway, I can see Bartre getting to L10 through his forced use + a little bit more, but considering how slow EXP gain is he has to be almost a permanent member of the team to reach 10/5, and it's easier to do it earlier than later because a 10/1 Bartre is obviously going to be pretty damn annoying to feed kills to. Not just minimal kills either, but think 10 EXP per kill, mostly, for 4 level-ups. Then again, he prolly gains about as much by hitting as by killing. His main problem will obviously be his hit. ~24 base hit, so just short of 100 hit with Iron Axe. Then again enemy avo is dick except for fast swordies, and he has bows, so meh.

Overall, if having to train up Bartre to recruit Karla goes against her, we must also consider things like Nino's chance to get killed before we can recruit her (the monk she fights had 2% to critkill her in my playthrough). Or Jaffar's, seeing as he likes to run into Swordreavers blindly if his health is high enough.

I don't think Nino's recruitment has anything to do with Jaffar.

And of course we have to question how much more useful Nino's 10.5 mag healing with E staves is at 10/1. Healing is only useful in so far it allows other characters to take on more enemies without having to retreat and heal themselves, or hog attention from Pent or some other healer. But given the amount of protection Nino needs with her 25 hp/8 def/14 AS/40 avo, units might prefer using two vulneraries over getting healed by Nino, since you can use vulneraries in whatever situation you want, whereas if Nino heals you you're forced to build a wall of meat around her. I'd rather give up one or two player phase attacks than that, especially if you can kill enemies on enemy phase just as well as on player phase.

Meh, if protecting Nino is too much of a hassle, than simply let her die instead. Not like it matters.

And then consider Karla's own fighting prowess. Yes, they exist. She has 21 atk/18 AS with a Killing Edge, and 55% crit (30 KE, 10 skl, 15 class). ~80% chance of killing at least once in two attacks. 30% of twice. Granted, she has issues damaging things even with one crit, but some things just don't go down easily.

For example, this 54 hp/10 def Warrior takes 12 damage from a normal attack by Karla, 36 from a crit, 48 from crit+hit, so anyone would be able to pick him off after one crit, and he's dead with two. It requires 38 atk and 15 AS for a clean 2HKO. Even some offensive monster with Silver Axe needs 23 str for that, which even Geitz, for example, won't have until 20/10 or so.

About the same goes for Wyverns and Paladins. She only needs one crit for most other enemy types. Heroes she likely needs two crits, but she's probably one of the few who can double those (15-16 Spd and 10 con, but they have large weapon variety, like 12 wt Silver Axes).

That's much easier to turn into a positive contribution than Nino, imo.

You have to consider whether Karla's contribution in VoD is worth training Bartre earlier in the game, though. If not, then using Karla at all is an overall negative to your team's performance, period. Nino atleast doesn't have strings attached to her recruitment.

Anyways, this brings up another point. Recruiting Geitz requires you to put lots of levels into Lyn. She is in Upper Mid though, so I'm not sure if this is much of a detriment.

Edited August 4, 2009 by CATS

[Vykan12]

Meh, if protecting Nino is too much of a hassle, than simply let her die instead. Not like it matters.

For the purposes of comparing her to Karla, of course it does.

[CATS]

Even in dying and distracting a couple enemies for a turn, Nino has done something positive (plus since it's 10/1 Nino we can assume she got a heal or two in before death).

Karla really just comes down to whether her contribution in VoD makes a bigger difference than having to feed Bartre levels and a promo item. If the positive of her performance in VoD outweighs the negative of training Bartre, then she obviously wins. If not, she can't exist without hurting the team, so she loses.

Personally I'm inclined to say Nino takes the cake, simply judging by the fact that people never, ever bother to train Bartre even to 10/5 for Karla. If Karla in VoD outweighs the Bartre training needed to acquire her, then it would be done on each and every playthrough, since you'll almost certainly have room to field her in VoD (18 spots iirc).

[dondon151]

No, it's not a point for her for the reason that Bartre would be likely to be used anyway if he was good.

There is still the likelihood that Bartre won't be used, and since if we're assuming that Karla is in play then Bartre has to be used all the time, so Karla is indirectly responsible for Bartre's performance some of the time.

It's pretty much already a total blowout, but whatever. Let's go along with the goddess!Karla theory for a second: Yeah, the hassle of training Bartre's failure ass MIGHT be worth it if Endgame wasn't already a joke.

Are we talking about god-Bartre or crap-Bartre here?

If crap-Bartre, the negatives might actually be outweighing the payoff here.

It doesn't matter which Bartre. The point is, if Karla could make the rest of the game a total blowout (that is, more of a blowout than currently imaginable), then does Bartre get credit for that by recruiting her? Because my assumption is that characters don't get credit for units that they recruit, so I'm wondering why characters get penalized for characters that they need to be recruited with.

If you want to go along with the lines of logic that Karla should be penalized for Bartre, then I'm going to advocate Priscilla > Raven because she gets credit for both her performance and his.

Of course you realize this is a totally different issue. Eliwood can recruit Harken even at base level. Matthew can recruit Guy even at base level. Florina can be deployed to recruit Fiora and do absolutley nothing else for the rest of the game. Bartre has to be trained just to survive against Karla, I don't see why you're comparing the scenarios.

This is a matter of principle; if penalties work one way, then why doesn't credit work the opposite way?

Weren't you making a big deal about Nino having to use a promotion item earlier? You wanna explain how this logic doesn't apply to Bartre?

I was going to post something as a rebuttal, but then I realized that it wouldn't fly, so I retract this statement.

It seems at this point that comparisons between another unit and Karla are not unit vs. Karla, but rather unit vs. Karla + Bartre. Aside from what Vykan pointed out, that comparisons between units should be primarily between those units as a matter of principle, this line of logic still helps Karla. If Karla forces Bartre to be played, then she should get credit for whatever he contributes to the team prior to when she joins. Bartre is higher than Karla on the tier list. Therefore, Karla forcing Bartre to be played overall increases her utility.

Now, someone is going to inevitably argue "but Bartre has negative utility!" which, aside from the fact that I don't buy into this line of logic, is a rather difficult claim to logically and numerically support. For this claim to be true, Bartre's deployment relative to an empty unit slot has to in some way impede the player's progress over the course of the chapter; furthermore, this has to be true for every situation that Bartre can be used in (because unfavorable situations can obviously be avoided). As Bartre is generally 2RKOing and being 2-4RKOd back, and few units earlygame are doing much better, it's difficult to really argue him as a negative at any time, although he is for sure not as much of a positive as the other units in the army.

[CATS]

It seems at this point that comparisons between another unit and Karla are not unit vs. Karla, but rather unit vs. Karla + Bartre. Aside from what Vykan pointed out, that comparisons between units should be primarily between those units as a matter of principle, this line of logic still helps Karla. If Karla forces Bartre to be played, then she should get credit for whatever he contributes to the team prior to when she joins. Bartre is higher than Karla on the tier list. Therefore, Karla forcing Bartre to be played overall increases her utility.

What? No. Bartre is higher than Karla, but he is still on the lower end of the tier list. Bartre is contributing negatively by sucking and taking up a slot which I could've used to field a better unit. Yes, Karla gets credit for this because she forces it to happen, but since it's a negative that she's forcing, it decreases her overall utility, not increases.

Now, someone is going to inevitably argue "but Bartre has negative utility!" which, aside from the fact that I don't buy into this line of logic, is a rather difficult claim to logically and numerically support. For this claim to be true, Bartre's deployment relative to an empty unit slot has to in some way impede the player's progress over the course of the chapter; furthermore, this has to be true for every situation that Bartre can be used in (because unfavorable situations can obviously be avoided). As Bartre is generally 2RKOing and being 2-4RKOd back, and few units earlygame are doing much better, it's difficult to really argue him as a negative at any time, although he is for sure not as much of a positive as the other units in the army.

He's a negative because he takes up a unit slot. There's a slew of better units which could be fielded in that slot instead; and if I wasn't using Karla, I'd be fielding one of those better units in Bartre's stead, and I'd be better off. The team that's using Karla is doing worse than the team that isn't during those earlier chapters where they need to field Bartre. You can say "he's not that bad" or whatever, but the fact is, he is that bad. The tier list itself says so, and I don't really see how you can disagree as long as Bartre sits on the lower end of the list.

I agree that he isn't really a negative during the very early chapters, but those alone won't even be enough to get him to L10, much less 10/5. You're going to have to field him beyond just those first few chapters.

Edited August 5, 2009 by CATS

[Dat Nick]

There is still the likelihood that Bartre won't be used

If Bartre was the second best unit in the game, do you really think that scenario would be all that likely?

and since if we're assuming that Karla is in play then Bartre has to be used all the time, so Karla is indirectly responsible for Bartre's performance some of the time.

If we're actually using Bartre already then this entire logic crumbles itself into a ball and folds and burns.

then does Bartre get credit for that by recruiting her?

Certainly, since we were required to use Bartre for it: But then it's a question or whether or not the payoff evens out.

If you want to go along with the lines of logic that Karla should be penalized for Bartre, then I'm going to advocate Priscilla > Raven because she gets credit for both her performance and his.

Priscilla isn't required to be used longterm. If you don't play her, all you're required to do is to field her and talk to Raven.

This is a matter of principle; if penalties work one way, then why doesn't credit work the opposite way?

...That quote you just quoted explains why.

Now, someone is going to inevitably argue "but Bartre has negative utility!" which, aside from the fact that I don't buy into this line of logic, is a rather difficult claim to logically and numerically support. For this claim to be true, Bartre's deployment relative to an empty unit slot has to in some way impede the player's progress over the course of the chapter; furthermore, this has to be true for every situation that Bartre can be used in (because unfavorable situations can obviously be avoided). As Bartre is generally 2RKOing and being 2-4RKOd back, and few units earlygame are doing much better, it's difficult to really argue him as a negative at any time, although he is for sure not as much of a positive as the other units in the army.

Let me just clarify that I don't particularly care for Karla>Nino: I'm just bored and want to argue the logic behind it because I don't agree with it.

[Raven]

Karla is not all that good in herself. She wouldn't be outside of lower tier even if she joined automatically as an ally. She always needs to be using a Killing Edge, Wo Dao or maybe Silver sword to have a good chance of one-rounding anything. Even then, ~50% crit is not that reliable... Plus, she is only usable for... one, two, three - maybe four chapters, assuming you also visit the Gaiden chapter.

For her to be of any decent use in the Final chapter, you would have to really favour her usage in the Gaiden chapter which is filled with nothing but Berserkers.

The fact that you need to raise Bartre - a unit which is only moderately useful for the first couple of chapters he is forced into being fielded, but needs babying from then on - to a minimum of Lv10/5 is a hindrance on her behalf in terms of recruitment.

The argument of Priscilla > Raven isn't in the same category because there's no set level in which Priscilla needs to be in order to talk to and recruit Raven.

[Mekkah]

I don't think Nino's recruitment has anything to do with Jaffar.

I'm saying that if you want to count pre-recruitment things for or against a character, you have to take into consideration the chance of Jaffar/Nino dying before they can even be recruited.

Meh, if protecting Nino is too much of a hassle, than simply let her die instead. Not like it matters.

Even in dying and distracting a couple enemies for a turn, Nino has done something positive (plus since it's 10/1 Nino we can assume she got a heal or two in before death).

So we feed weak Nino EXP to get to L10 and use a Guiding Ring on her just to have her heal once or twice then die as an enemy distraction? Never mind that the enemies that killed her got through enemy phase taking even less damage than if they had attacked _Karla_.

Karla really just comes down to whether her contribution in VoD makes a bigger difference than having to feed Bartre levels and a promo item.

I've explained in my post how hard it is to feed Bartre kills. It seems a lot easier to me than feeding Nino kills. Your only response to that so far has been "I don't think Nino's recruitment has anything to do with Jaffar.".

Personally I'm inclined to say Nino takes the cake, simply judging by the fact that people never, ever bother to train Bartre even to 10/5 for Karla. If Karla in VoD outweighs the Bartre training needed to acquire her, then it would be done on each and every playthrough, since you'll almost certainly have room to field her in VoD (18 spots iirc).

What people never ever do is irrelevant, because that depends on personal preference, playstyle, etc. Tier lists should reflect unit worth, not player preferences.

Anyway, of course Karla isn't a net positive after considering what you have to do with Bartre. But neither is Nino. I think feeding Nino kills vs feeding Bartre kills is arguable (I think it's easier to do with Bartre, but Nino takes less time), but Karla's extra body in VoD seems a lot more useful than some heals I could have gotten in with vulneraries.

Or you can go the whole nine yards and just use Bartre normally. After he stops getting doubled by non-swordies he is basically another Dorcas in your team.