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Progenitus

ITT I rank the characters

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No post count so he isn't post farming, silly.

When did that happen? Then never mind.

Shinon is a lot better than Boyd.

Shinon >> Boyd is not the issue, the 4.5 point gap is. Consider that Boyd can counter twice during Enemy Phase and he's already coming close to what Shinon can do damage-wise during an entire turn. If he heals himself on Player Phase he's even health-neutral.

This will make more sense if smash ever adds context to his ratings by posting what they are rated based upon. He does not, for instance, say that these are based on Hard Mode, even though they are.

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It's a 3.5 gap, but nonetheless it's pretty outrageous. The "rating" reflects it pretty well though, considering like half its content is based on 4-E.

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It's a 3.5 gap, but nonetheless it's pretty outrageous. The "rating" reflects it pretty well though, considering like half its content is based on 4-E.

There's a general overrating of 4-E performace here in general, some characters who are only available for 4-E get as high as 8.0, characters who are only around for 4-E and are subpar choices are equal or better than characters who are actually useful for certain parts of the game (IE Lehran>Kieran? What?). I'm guessing availability might not factor in this at all, although he does claim limited availability affects certain scores (Tibarn, Naesala, etc.), so I have no idea what the reasoning is here.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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But it baffled me how Neph would appear on so many top 5 kills lists for people. Why this unit, who is simply above average, is used by so many. Why this unit is ranked so highly. But then NeoElfBoy indirectly told me why.

Hmm, this is definitely not because number of kills is directly correlated to availability!

<I>Characters who need to be babied a lot often show up very high on the Top Five...</I>

Yeah, especially Haar and Ike. Those two failures always show up unwanted in my top 5.

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It's a 3.5 gap, but nonetheless it's pretty outrageous. The "rating" reflects it pretty well though, considering like half its content is based on 4-E.

If Shinon were in any other class that had better 1-range options (like warrior or something), he would be better than Ike.

Even without that, he has ridiculously hilarious offense. His offense with silencer/forged bow is arguably better than JANAFF, since they have about the same att, and Shinon doubles everything except SMs, but Shinon has more crit, and Janaff shitstomps everyone else on the team in offense. Only, Janaff doesn't even show up until 3-7. Even before the silencer/forged bow is available, he has like 29 att/59 crit with the killer bow, which beats the shit out of everyone else on the team save for Ike.

And he's still good for just tanking crap when no one else has the durability to do so. I remember clearly in 3-1 where GOD TIER IKE died on me because he lured too many enemies at that far right chokepoint where you can move up to the top portion of the map (one of the enemies being a sage. maybe 2, I just remember Ike died and I was like "wtf"), and I didn't want to use Gatrie when I redid the chapter because he was too busy soloing the south portion of the map (and later solo the southwest reinforcements), and everyone else has crappier HP/def/res than him so they wouldn't survive it either... except Shinon. So Shinon lured the enemies out from the fog of war (weakened them with his crossbow), and then the rest of my guys cleaned up the enemies.

The fact that crossbow Shinon counters 1-2 range enemies better than liek everyone else on the team until forged hand axes/javelins are available just makes the whole thing even more hilarious (the people who have more att don't usually double, and the people who double have less att), especially since like 4 chapters after they're forgable he promotes into marskman and gets 3-range, which is so good it's something you can't just write off by saying "BUT HIS 1-RANGE IS HORRIBLE". And he still one rounds liek everything while even GOD TIER IKE WITH GOD TIER RAGNELL is sore out of luck if he's even slightly speed screwed.

Are you seriously suggesting Shinon isn't amazing?

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That's wonderful Shinon hype and all, but you didn't bring up Boyd's name a single time.

Shinon >> Boyd is not the issue, the 3.5 point gap is.

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That's wonderful Shinon hype and all, but you didn't bring up Boyd's name a single time.

Shinon >> Boyd is not the issue, the 3.5 point gap is.

Indeed. Also, I'm going to disagree with the notion that luring enemies to Shinon for Player Phase action is a good thing. The GM's aren't really lacking in durability, very few of them mind taking on lots of enemies on the enemy phase, so Shinon taking attacks and dealing no/inferior damage doesn't help much, it could actually be considered a hindrance in some cases.

1-2 range enemies are much less common than 1 range enemies, which he fails at countering in comparison to other top tier characters. 3 range really isn't all that wonderful either, sure it lets him hit 1-2 and 2 range enemies without taking a counter, but it gives him a chance to miss and doesn't solve his primary problem of countering 1 range enemies for decent damage.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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The GM's aren't really lacking in durability

True, but I think people exaggerate about GM durability slightly. Take Titania for example. She only has 36 hp/20 def/76 avo base, 60 hp/20 def/140 avo growth and comes in at a pretty high level (--/16/0). It only takes 32 atk/126 hit to 3HKO her at 50 real hit, and there happens to be some warriors and generals in 3-P that can pull that off. We really can't make full use of her movement until she promotes and gets a support (+2-3 def), but then her low concrete durability growths catch up to her anyways in part 4.

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Boyd doesn't do anything any other frontliner can already do, except they do it better. He has mediocre durability and way more doubling issues than the likes of Ike/Gatrie/Titania/Oscar, obviously against people like Mia/Ranulf/hawks too (only Haar has arguably more doubling issues, and even then he starts with the higher base. Boyd probably won't even beat Haar in spd until promotion), which results in generally inferior offense.

Shinon gives me a unit that can one round like anything I want on player phase, in a game where even GOD TIER IKE has some doubling issues.

Basically, you're telling me taht if I removed Shinon from the game, I'd notice it less than if I removed someone like Titania or Gatrie (who I gave the same score to, unless you're implying that all three should move down) from the game.

and yes, the durability of several GMs are pretty overrated. They're durable, but not THAT durable.

Shinon has like the best durability out of everyone in 3-P and 3-1 except Gatrie, since even Ike has about the same HP/def/avoid but loses res, and everyone else has some combination of inferior HP/def/avoid/res (Titania, for example, has 7 less HP than Shinon). When you consider that, on top of already losing durability, our tanks are taking counters on player phase while Shinon generally won't, and we only have two healers that get one rounded by the entire map and thus can't be healing all the time without risking their own lives and thus can't always be healing our tanks to full HP, and we can't always vulnerary because we actually have a limited amount right now (we have 5 vulneraries and 1 concoction for 9 fighters and 2 healers), there are definitely occasions where Shinon has to tank because no one else can. My scenario in 3-1 fits the bill perfectly, especially since it actually happened and wasn't some magical situation that I pulled out of my ass, unlike some people do here (I won't mention names).

Edited by smash fanatic

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Basically, you're telling me taht if I removed Shinon from the game, I'd notice it less than if I removed someone like Titania or Gatrie (who I gave the same score to, unless you're implying that all three should move down) from the game.

You're putting words into people's mouths again. Shinon having a 9.0 is not an issue (at this moment). Boyd being 3.5 points away at 5.5 is.

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Agreed. Boyd's rating should be a bit higher and Shinon should probably slam a bit into the 8.5 range if anything due to the limits of 1 range being fairly weak as well as limited (Bowguns suck but Crossbows are alright until later on). Boyd should be, IMO, about a 6.5-7 and Shinon the same or an 8.5. In other words the gap should close in like others have stated. I'm not doubting Shinon's great durability (honestly it is great) but that 1 range is just an issue I can't put my finger on. That isn't the point though.

Oh yeah, Oscar and Aran should drop some points. C'mon, 8/10 for Oscar? This isn't PoR where Paladins are great.

Edited by Colonel M

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It's funny how no one is addressing smash's exact post, but smash isn't addressing Interceptor's either. :(

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We now have, let's see, six people in general agreement about the basic point, people that do not ordinarily agree on things. This could be an important observation.

in before smash links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum and considers that to be a proper rebuttal.

It's funny how no one is addressing smash's exact post, but smash isn't addressing Interceptor's either. :(

In fairness to the people who are ignoring smash's tangential arguments, I don't actually need to finish this sentence because I've already said the important part. Without making excuses for anyone else who does it, smash has a bad habit of ignoring anything that's devastating to his case, owing to the fixation on victory.

I will now complete the circle of irony by responding to smash's posts in their entirety.

If Shinon were in any other class that had better 1-range options (like warrior or something), he would be better than Ike.

Great idea, you can start ranking people based on fantasy characteristics that they don't actually have. After you finish ranking Shinon The Warrior as a 10.5 because he's better than Ike, I suggest ranking Mia based on her performance if she was a Draco, and Mist as if she had a rocket launcher.

Even without that, he has ridiculously hilarious offense. His offense with silencer/forged bow is arguably better than JANAFF, since they have about the same att, and Shinon doubles everything except SMs, but Shinon has more crit, and Janaff shitstomps everyone else on the team in offense. Only, Janaff doesn't even show up until 3-7. Even before the silencer/forged bow is available, he has like 29 att/59 crit with the killer bow, which beats the shit out of everyone else on the team save for Ike.

This is a poor comparison, since Janaff is not lacking for 1-range and has king mobility. One of the things that makes Janaff good is that I can throw him into a bullpen on the other side of the map. The only valid point that you've made here is that Shinon has excellent Player Phase offense even when he fails to clean 2HKO.

And he's still good for just tanking crap when no one else has the durability to do so. I remember clearly in 3-1 where GOD TIER IKE died on me because he lured too many enemies at that far right chokepoint where you can move up to the top portion of the map (one of the enemies being a sage. maybe 2, I just remember Ike died and I was like "wtf"), and I didn't want to use Gatrie when I redid the chapter because he was too busy soloing the south portion of the map (and later solo the southwest reinforcements), and everyone else has crappier HP/def/res than him so they wouldn't survive it either... except Shinon. So Shinon lured the enemies out from the fog of war (weakened them with his crossbow), and then the rest of my guys cleaned up the enemies.

This is the one of the only scenarios where his durability actually means anything, though, and it's an edge case. In most situations, you have to protect him as if he were a a baby, because he hurts your efficiency even when he's in no danger of dying. When Shinon is not getting attacked because he's behind a wall of meat, it doesn't matter whether he's 2HKO'ed or 12HKO'ed, because his durability never enters into it.

The fact that crossbow Shinon counters 1-2 range enemies better than liek everyone else on the team until forged hand axes/javelins are available just makes the whole thing even more hilarious (the people who have more att don't usually double, and the people who double have less att), especially since like 4 chapters after they're forgable he promotes into marskman and gets 3-range, which is so good it's something you can't just write off by saying "BUT HIS 1-RANGE IS HORRIBLE". And he still one rounds liek everything while even GOD TIER IKE WITH GOD TIER RAGNELL is sore out of luck if he's even slightly speed screwed.

This is a weak point at best. Shinon being better at 1-2 range is only useful if fighting at 1-2 is something you'd actually do on a regular basis. Prior to forges and/or mastery skills, this is not actually the case. You are generally better off dealing with 1-2 and 2-range units on Player Phase, because they are far less numerous than the 1-range enemies that you can largely battle during Enemy Phase. There is another reason to eliminate these enemis during PP rather than EP: they are the units that can actually threaten your healers. If I clear the immediate area of ranged attackers, my healers and mages are in no danger if they are out of range of the remanining 1-range attackers.

Shinon's 1-2 game is actually pretty limited, too. Consider that the only good weapon he has is the Crossbow, it only has 35 uses, and it has 0 crit. It's good for maybe 9-10 clean kills, and then you're done. You don't get a replacement for this weapon until the middle of 3-8, and Bowguns are awful. Also adding insult to injury is that Shinon starts failing to 2RKO once things start reaching 19DEF or so (Halberdiers), and he's always a failure versus a General or a Draco. What's the worth of this ability if it doesn't give him reach against the units that are the hardest to kill anyway?

Are you seriously suggesting Shinon isn't amazing?

I'm pretty sure that what people are suggesting is that nothing about Shinon justifies a 3.5 point gap between him and Boyd. He is too high, or Boyd is too low, or both.

Boyd doesn't do anything any other frontliner can already do, except they do it better. He has mediocre durability and way more doubling issues than the likes of Ike/Gatrie/Titania/Oscar, obviously against people like Mia/Ranulf/hawks too (only Haar has arguably more doubling issues, and even then he starts with the higher base. Boyd probably won't even beat Haar in spd until promotion), which results in generally inferior offense.

This is a case for Ike/Gatrie/Titania/Oscar/Mia/Ranulf/Hawks/Jesus being better than Boyd, it does not mean that Boyd's frontlining is bad. He does, in fact, generally 2HKO and has a real chance of ORKO depending on deployment strategy.

Shinon gives me a unit that can one round like anything I want on player phase, in a game where even GOD TIER IKE has some doubling issues.

This is not in dispute. Shinon can usually one-round anything, if by anything you mean he's only clean-killing loladins and other toilet-paper targets. He needs crits for Generals and the like (so does everyone else, but it means he's not special). He starts getting borderline against targets as the game wears on, because his base STR is good but will not being going anywhere in a hurry. It's not a bad thing to be crit-killing, but having to rely on a crit kill when you only have Player Phase offense is a considerably worse than someone like Mia, who can just let enemies run into her on Enemy Phase and clean up the leftovers.

Basically, you're telling me taht if I removed Shinon from the game, I'd notice it less than if I removed someone like Titania or Gatrie (who I gave the same score to, unless you're implying that all three should move down) from the game.

That's not what people are saying at all. I don't think that it's a very convincing strategy for you to always compare Shinon to other units instead of comparing him to Boyd. You argue that Shinon can't drop because he's about as good as a Heron, or his peers in 9.0, but always you ignore the direct comparison between the two. I'm not even sure that an argument of "what if X didn't exist" is even valid, since chapter like 3-P and 3-1 don't actually allow us to remove GMs. Hypotheticals like that have the effect of unbalancing unit comparisons by creating situations that don't really happen.

and yes, the durability of several GMs are pretty overrated. They're durable, but not THAT durable.

The point of the comment was probably that there are no shortage of damage-soakers in the GMs, at least not to the extent that you'd continually have to rely on Shinon's poor Enemy Phase prospects. This is not like 1-3, where using Super-Kurth as a pinch-tank is an efficient strategy because everyone else gets obliterated. This is Part 3, where even units that get 3HKO'ed are viable frontliners, and there are a lot of units that easily meet that threshold.

Shinon has like the best durability out of everyone in 3-P and 3-1 except Gatrie, since even Ike has about the same HP/def/avoid but loses res, and everyone else has some combination of inferior HP/def/avoid/res (Titania, for example, has 7 less HP than Shinon). When you consider that, on top of already losing durability, our tanks are taking counters on player phase while Shinon generally won't, and we only have two healers that get one rounded by the entire map and thus can't be healing all the time without risking their own lives and thus can't always be healing our tanks to full HP, and we can't always vulnerary because we actually have a limited amount right now (we have 5 vulneraries and 1 concoction for 9 fighters and 2 healers), there are definitely occasions where Shinon has to tank because no one else can.

My counter-argument is merely that using Shinon's durability is a trade-off. Certainly there will be times when you might find it useful to have him plug a hole or soak hits, but it comes at the cost of potentially doing less damage to the enemies than you otherwise would. Shinon may be ahead in this one scenario, but 3-1 is just a short chapter, a ripple. Boyd is clutch in this chapter as well, just owing to the fact that you only have a limited number of people, and the NPCs are useless. I could just as easily have Boyd self-heal and plug a hole, giving up a limited heal and his Player Phase, but still keeping Ike from dying and still injuring the enemy severely.

My scenario in 3-1 fits the bill perfectly, especially since it actually happened and wasn't some magical situation that I pulled out of my ass, unlike some people do here (I won't mention names).

Smart of you to not mention names, because then you'd need to mention a situation, and then there's a danger that you're talking out of your ass and the magic isn't so fantastic. Easier to just weasel-word your way out of it and save the trouble of having to come up with a real argument.

Edited by Interceptor

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Smash shouldn't be using numerics first off to categorize and rate a character's performance. Also he overblows endgame performance on some characters and underrates it on others.

I find that shinon's durability advantage is rather meh myself. I don't think the greil mercs durability is overblown. I find that even ilyana can be a decent tank/2hko machine if I just dump 8 levels of bexp on her and promote her instantly at level 10 2nd tier on 3-3. This holds true for most of the greil mercs. Almost every single one of them can take bexp abuse and instantly promote. I don't even aim to get to level 20 with bexp abuse. Might as well promote as many of them as soon as possible since they still end up kick ass and tend to cap everything that matters by endgame.

Edited by Lancelot

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It's funny how no one is addressing smash's exact post, but smash isn't addressing Interceptor's either. :(

Interceptor? Who is Interceptor? I do not know anyone by that name.

You're putting words into people's mouths again. Shinon having a 9.0 is not an issue (at this moment). Boyd being 3.5 points away at 5.5 is.

I explain why Shinon is awesome, probably on par with Gatrie/Titania, and why Boyd is very, very average (and being average would give him ~5.5 score, since 5.5 is average). What more do you need?

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And at the height of debating maturity, Smash makes jokes about putting Interceptor on ignore.

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Smash put Interceptor on ignore because he can't stand the failure that eminates from what interceptor quotes in any of smash's numerous topics. This is perfectly understandable actually. I cannot read any of the hideous text that interceptor quotes myself.

Numerous others have also put interceptor on ignore as well if only for fear of the quotes.

Edit: It's like looking in the mirror.

Edited by Lancelot

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And at the height of debating maturity, Smash makes jokes about putting Interceptor on ignore.

So what do you want me to do; waste my time responding to int? He's never going to give up no matter what I say. I may as well talk to a wall.

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So what do you want me to do; waste my time responding to int? He's never going to give up no matter what I say. I may as well talk to a wall.

Irony is a wonderful thing. The best part is that the complaint is only actually more valid with a certain person that isn't int, thus making said statement even more ironic.

Edited by Narga_Rocks

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And Int is one of the few people on GFaqs and most likely (no offense to others) here who can provide an argument that Smash will ignore since it smashes his point.

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There's so much trolling coming from the circle jerkers and so much semen flying everywhere that I didn't realize I didn't respond to this.

Agreed. Boyd's rating should be a bit higher and Shinon should probably slam a bit into the 8.5 range if anything due to the limits of 1 range being fairly weak as well as limited (Bowguns suck but Crossbows are alright until later on). Boyd should be, IMO, about a 6.5-7 and Shinon the same or an 8.5. In other words the gap should close in like others have stated. I'm not doubting Shinon's great durability (honestly it is great) but that 1 range is just an issue I can't put my finger on. That isn't the point though.

A 6.5-7 for Boyd? That would imply he's quite a bit above average overall, since 5.5 is average. When, exactly, is he above average, and by a large enough margin to be that high?

2HKOing is pretty average offense, and his durability is pretty average, and he has average mobility, and fire is a pretty average affinity. What makes him above average?

And I don't see why Shinon isn't a 9. His offense is like the best on the team, save for maybe Ike (Ike seriously needs to watch for spd screwage). His damage output in one round is actually better than what people like Titania and Gatrie do in 2. Look at this.

Shinon attacks and most likely kills something on player phase, which is something you now don't have to worry about anymore.

Titania/Gatrie/Haar/etc. attack something, but most liekly don't kill it, and then on enemy phase that weakened enemy might run off and heal itself, or get healed by a bishop using physic, or run off to attack someone else weaker, like Soren or something, none of which are good things; the enemy isn't always going to attack Titania/Gatrie/Haar on the enemy phase. Or, they'll have to kill an enemy already weakened. Still an advantage for Shinon either way.

So, they have to at LEAST counter 1 enemy on enemy phase plus attack something on player phase just to still lose to Shinon attacking one thing on player phase, and you won't always be able to counter 2+ enemies (and sometimes you don't even counter anything at all. It's just everyone moves forward).

Also, Shinon has a greater attack range than unmounted units, since his 2-range allows him to attack up to 9 spaces away, while a person like Mia or Ike or (gasp) Boyd can attack 8 spaces away, and if they switch to 2-range they nerf their offense pretty badly. This also makes it easier for Shinon to stick with his supporter when building supports, since he has 8 spaces he can attack from while 1-rangers only have 4.

"but his 1-range is horrible"

So what? Not everyone on the team needs to be able to tank enemy phases. We don't have people like our healers tanking anything on enemy phase. So why is it suddenly bad that Shinon can't do this on enemy phase? He goes and one rounds something on player phase, and I let my tanks like Gatrie do their stuff on enemy phase, and they're both being ridiculously useful, they're just doing different things.

And this is ignoring that you can always trade with Shinon to his crossbow if you really need to have some kind of damage from him on enemy phase (and since you're building supports in early part 3, this is a lot easier than you think, since the supporter can just trade with Shinon), which makes it even more hilarious since Shinon with crossbow doesn't do that much less damage than everyone else in early part 3 even if they're using 1-range, except against generals.

He also pretty much has dibs on any special bows you pick up, since Rolf isn't very good and isn't played very often, and Leo is even worse and wants to use Lugh anyway, and Astrid is lolcrap, and the only other person who eventually gets bows that you might actually use is Oscar, but he'd prefer lances anyway. This means stuff like the brave bow are his personal weapons (he can use brave bow as early as 3-7. If you aren't using Jill or Zihark, you can trade it to them in 3-6 and then recruit them in 3-7. Not like you'll miss units you're not even using. If you're using both of them and don't want to recruit them to the GMs, the brave bow by the start of part 4 is still fine), which makes his offense even more ridiculous. Nevermind that the double bow comes along in 4-E and starts soloing maps even better than Tibarn.

Oh yeah, Oscar and Aran should drop some points. C'mon, 8/10 for Oscar? This isn't PoR where Paladins are great.

Oscar doubles at least the slow enemies (though he has issues for his first two chapters or so) and they make up a large portion of the enemies in GM chapters, and these are enemies taht people like Titania/Gatrie actually have issues doubling (or at least more than Oscar). 3-2, 3-5, 3-10, and 3-11 are really paladin heavy, and some chapters have almost the same number of generals as warriors/halbs/snipers combined (3-8, including reinforcements, has 16 generals. 13 warriors/halbs/snipers.) And if you crown him in 3-11 he'll probably start doubling warriors/halbs/etc (note that "3-11 crown lol" doesn't let people like Gatrie or Titania or Haar or Soren or Boyd start doubling. They have to take a speedwing/3-3 crown). Earth affinity also gives him good durability, and the mount is also good.

If Boyd is so good he deserves a 6.5-7, then Oscar's 8/10 is too low for him.

As for Aran, I'm not going to get into another argument about him. I do think, however, that he's one of the worst characters in the 8.0 bracket.

You're putting words into people's mouths again. Shinon having a 9.0 is not an issue (at this moment). Boyd being 3.5 points away at 5.5 is.

I explained why Boyd is average and why a 5.5 sounds fair to him.

I also said that Shinon is pretty equal to other units who got 9.0, namely Titania/Gatrie.

So why wouldn't the 3.5 gap remain?

Unless you're implying that Titania/Gatrie aren't worth a 9.0 either, but then that would imply that the hawks are possibly not worth a 9.0, since the tier list had a very long argument about Gatrie vs hawks which would imply that they are about equal, which would then imply that Tibarn isn't an 8.5, and then it's a chain reaction and everyone shifts down.

"but ur not directly comparing Boyd and Shinon"

And how would something like that work? Boyd and Shinon do two different things. Shinon's role is to pwn something on player phase. Boyd's role is to do a little work on player and enemy phases, except he doesn't do anything special in both.

Comparisons are ALWAYS made easier when you compare the units to others who fill a similar role or have about the same score/usefulness, since it helps get rid of a few subjective factors. For example, if you were to compare a healer to a fighter, you'd see how the healer fares against the other available healers. If you thought a unit was in high tier, you'd compare that unit to other high tiers, not say "oh look at how much d00d 1 beats this mid tier d00d 2", since that only tells us d00d 1 > d00d 2, but not by exactly how much.

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The irony of it all... So if Boyd is considered "average" do I dare ask how Aran and Oscar are well beyond that?

Or am I going to get a rock response to this statement?

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