FE9 Tier List v2

[Vykan12]

Tier list faq

Sirius requested I take over responsability of the FE9 tier list, hence the new topic.

Seinfeld tier

Titania

Top

Oscar

Jill

Kieran

Boyd

Reyson

High

Ike

Tanith

Marcia

Astrid

Makalov

Upper-Mid

Volke

Mist

Muarim

Nephenee

Brom

Zihark

Mordecai

Stefan

Lethe

Mid

Soren

Ilyana

Rhys

Geoffrey

Calill

Devdan

Lower-Mid

Gatrie

Haar

Largo

Tormod

Ranulf

Tauroneo

Sothe

Low

Mia

Janaff

Shinon

Elincia

Ulki

Nasir

Ena

Bottom

Rolf

Lucia

Bastian

Edited August 9, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dat Nick]

Hold up, why the new topic? Sirius just updated the list, any reason he can't keep doing it?

Not that I have any issues with Vykan heading this list if that's the way things must be.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Vykan12]

It's so I can edit the opening post instead of nagging Sirius to do it. I guess I could've asked a mod, but this seems simpler.

[grandjackal]

Anyways, where were we? Oh yes, Rolf.

I could see him above the hawks. By then, Rolf's offense is bound to be leagues better. Sure he's got no enemy phase, but Janaff and Ulki aren't transformed all the time anyways, have no 2 range and have shit for offense regardless (especially Ulki). Then count in bow weakness (especially since there are quite a few ballistae in the future, the future being the very next chapter), weakness to wind magic (couple dudes with blizzard just in their starting chapter), weakness to laguz weapons...

Woops, seems I forgot Shinon. Well...Shinon has ok earlygame considering. By the time he returns though...Rolf should be steamrolling him something fierce. A blow Shinon can't recover from quick enough. Even worse is there's no reason to have more than one archer on the team, which makes this particularly devestating to our drunk friend.

Seriously, it's better to compare him to Mia. Basically Mia is exactly the same except she comes earlier with vantage, but is stuck to weak melee. This is a double edged sword, as she DOES have enemy phase, but the question is is she durable enough to afford to be able to do enemy phase? If not, then I'd actually consider Rolf better. If so...then below Mia it is.

Edited July 23, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Even worse is there's no reason to have more than one archer on the team, which makes this particularly devestating to our drunk friend.

Huh? This isn't an argument against Shinon. Percival should be low tier because we already have 6 paladins when he joins.

[grandjackal]

Huh? This isn't an argument against Shinon. Percival should be low tier because we already have 6 paladins when he joins.

Shinon isn't anywhere near Percival performance though.

By the time Shinon returns, with how strong Rolf is...What reason is there to assume Shinon would be better by any means?

[Lord Raven]

SUPER TOP

By the time Shinon returns, with how strong Rolf is...What reason is there to assume Shinon would be better by any means?

What if you're not using Rolf?

[dondon151]

Uhh... because you have to assume that you're using Shinon? You can't say X char > Y char because Y char is less likely to be used.

Ninja'd by Lord Raven =X

Edited July 23, 2009 by dondon151

[Progenitus]

Seriously, it's better to compare him to Mia. Basically Mia is exactly the same except she comes earlier with vantage, but is stuck to weak melee. This is a double edged sword, as she DOES have enemy phase, but the question is is she durable enough to afford to be able to do enemy phase? If not, then I'd actually consider Rolf better. If so...then below Mia it is.

Exactly the same? Mia joins 5 levels higher, 2 chapters earlier. That already gives Mia a huge combat lead. I mean, when mia attacks, at least she does something. How long does it take for Rolf to even double?

Also, even if Rolf > Shinon when Shinon rejoins in ch 19, Shinon hasn't been massively sucking and being your worst unit from chapters 9-18. And Rolf has no answer to Shinon's earlygame.

Edited July 23, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Lord Raven]

And before that he's been damn helpful.

[grandjackal]

What if you're not using Rolf?

Considering Shinon needs 10 levels just to match Rolf at base promotion?

Exactly the same? Mia joins 5 levels higher, 2 chapters earlier. That already gives Mia a huge combat lead. I mean, when mia attacks, at least she does something. How long does it take for Rolf to even double?

Thus why I say he's never passing Mia, but just wanted to clear the dust I guess. As for how soon he can double, well there is a single soldier the next chapter he can double even at base. 2 levels, he doubles a bit more, but will need some work from there ;;>> But do consider how fast he levels.

Also, even if Rolf > Shinon when Shinon rejoins in ch 19, Shinon hasn't been massively sucking and being your worst unit from chapters 9-18. And Rolf has no answer to Shinon's earlygame.

Right, Shinon just returns the suck worse than a level 15/0 Rolf. Rolf's early suck doesn't even amount to the suck Shinon has later. You could say we don't bring Shinon later on, but then Rolf doing actual something would show he's better than neutral.

[Ether]

Except that Shinon's earlygame builds up a lot of positive contribution,while,to be better than him when he rejoins,Rolf needs to build up negatives.

Sure,Once that time comes,Rolf does better,but it's already something like +10 (Shinnon) Vs. -30 (Rolf)(just example numbers),and Rolf doesn't win by enough to offset that.

[Progenitus]

Thus why I say he's never passing Mia, but just wanted to clear the dust I guess. As for how soon he can double, well there is a single soldier the next chapter he can double even at base. 2 levels, he doubles a bit more, but will need some work from there ;;>> But do consider how fast he levels.

It's not just "how fast he levels". It's also how painful it is to give him kills. His fighting is awful.

Right, Shinon just returns the suck worse than a level 15/0 Rolf. Rolf's early suck doesn't even amount to the suck Shinon has later. You could say we don't bring Shinon later on, but then Rolf doing actual something would show he's better than neutral.

Shinon isn't that much worse than a 15/0 Rolf. 1-2 less str, 1 less def but 5-6 less HP.

And 15/0 doesn't actually sound that off for Rolf when Shinon rejoins. A guy like Kieran who joins 2 chapters later (note that we're probably doing BEXP route for chapter 10, so it's more like just 1 chapter later) but 11 levels higher is promoting sometime around chapter 17 or so. So Rolf has 1 extra chapter and closes the level gap to about 6 or so (maybe 4-5)?

Now you say "Rolf's early suck doesn't even amount to the suck Shinon has later?" Well, let's compare.

1/0 Rolf

18 HP, 5 str, 8 skl, 6 spd, 4 lck, 6 def, 2 res

10/0 Oscar

29.85 HP, 9.15 str, 9.5 skl, 10.15 spd, 7.1 lck, 10.45 def, 2.1 res

So Rolf loses ~12 HP, 4 str, 4 spd, 4-5 def to Oscar in raw stats.

Now when Shinon rejoins (let's say Shinon doesn't gain any levels earlygame, which would really alter this comparison since Shinon has uber growths)

20/1 SHinon

32 HP, 9 str, 15 skl, 13 spd, 9 lck, 9 def, 6 res

20/1 Oscar

38.35 HP, 15.65 str, 16.5 skl, 16.65 spd, 10.1 lck, 15.95 def, 8.1 res

Shinon loses ~6 HP, 6-7 str, 3-4 spd, 7 def

It doesn't look like Shinon loses by that much more to a top tier like Oscar in chapter 19 than Rolf does in chapter 9.

Also, consider that babying lategame is a bit easier than babying earlygame. We have more BEXP to use, as well as more stat boosters, better weaponry (Shinon comes with the brave himself, for starters), skills, more opportunities to forge, etc. Since we have less of all this earlygame, this means if we're babying Rolf, we HAVE to feed him kills, or at least more kills than what Shinon would need to be fed to him.

And, even if we just don't use Shinon when he rejoins, and have him hide in a corner or something, Rolf still needs to be better than an empty slot to get a positive utility. But that takes a very long time. Chances are that won't even happen until promotion, which for him happens at like chapter 21 or something because he joins so underleveled. So he's already sucking for chapters 9-whenever he promotes, which is more chapters than when he's being good, and then the magnitude of his suckage > magnitude of his positive.

Edited July 23, 2009 by smash fanatic

[-Cynthia-]

It's not just "how fast he levels". It's also how painful it is to give him kills. His fighting is awful.

I'm going to agree with smash. Even if we give him 8 levels of BEXP or whatever, he's mostly 3RKOing and getting like 2RKOd back and he has to be walled off since he's an enemy magnet. It might be more convincing if there was a time pre-promotion where Rolf isn't bad, otherwise he is accumulating a lot of negative utility.

I think a lot of Rolf's issues before promotion have been ignored. Vykan's stats were off for Ch 11/12/13, since he had Rolf using a forged Steel Bow and had other inaccuracies like Rolf ORKOing Mages when he didn't.

Shinon isn't that much worse than a 15/0 Rolf. 1-2 less str, 1 less def but 5-6 less HP.

Rolf will level faster, but Shinon has the better growths across the board(except for Luck I guess) as well.

And 15/0 doesn't actually sound that off for Rolf when Shinon rejoins. A guy like Kieran who joins 2 chapters later (note that we're probably doing BEXP route for chapter 10, so it's more like just 1 chapter later) but 11 levels higher is promoting sometime around chapter 17 or so. So Rolf has 1 extra chapter and closes the level gap to about 6 or so (maybe 4-5)?

Which means 20/5 by Chapter 21 is too much CEXP for Rolf and the comparison with Lucia/Bastian was probably off too (20/8).

Also, consider that babying lategame is a bit easier than babying earlygame. We have more BEXP to use, as well as more stat boosters, better weaponry (Shinon comes with the brave himself, for starters), skills, more opportunities to forge, etc. Since we have less of all this earlygame, this means if we're babying Rolf, we HAVE to feed him kills, or at least more kills than what Shinon would need to be fed to him.

Well apparently Rolf is entitled to like 8 levels of BEXP for some unknown reason, but he still sucks even with it all, just not quite as much.

I also still think Largo>Tormod, but I'll save that comparison for later.

Also, maybe you didn't understand the Rold vs. Mia comparison, that was Rolf with favoritism compared to Mia without favoritism. If we would give Mia the same amount of BEXP, she would be winning handily, they aren't "exactly the same".

Edited July 23, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

I just want to state on the record that I'm perfectly fine with Rolf where he is.

Speaking of Largo vs Tormod, I'm standing by a tier gap between Largo and Geoffrey being an overstatement: So I'm still advocating for Largo to move either right above Sothe or right under him.

[Xort]

I've been thinking,and I could honestly see Lethe and Mordecai switching places. In their joining chapters, she has lower ATK, but she also doubles more reliably. He does have a nice 4 point defense lead, and more HP, but she has about 15 extra Avo so it's not a total loss for Lethe. Also, Lethe starts the battle transformed, where Mordy has to wait until most of the fighting is done anyway, unless he uses a Laguz Stone.

As for later on, Lethe's SPD is consistently higher, meaning she'll be able to double more effectively. Let's take chapter 16. As laguz, we'll assume they're getting somewhere between .75 and 1 levels per chapter. Let's just suppose they're both about level 7. That would put them (untransformed) at:

Lethe: 15 AS

Mordecai: 11 AS

Mordecai really isn't doubling much. There are about 6 enemies he doubles, whereas Lethe doubles 22 of them. Of course, Mordy has more HP and DEF, but not doubling totally hurts his offense here.

As for supports, Mordecai wins here. Lethe's only option at this point is Jill, while Mordy has Illyana and Mist. We'll assume Lethe has C Jill, giving her basically nothing of value. Mordy might have C with Illyana and Mist. Clear win there.

In any case, Lethe's offense is only going to continue to beat out Mordecai's. Even at Endgame, where I'll assume they're both at level 14, Lethe will have about 20 SPD, where Mordy has 14. The slowest enemies in Endgame have 9 AS. He doubles, but that's only 8 of the enemies, or 20% of the enemies. Lethe, at 20 AS, only gets doubled by a Swordmaster, Ashnard, and the Brave Sword Pally. Mordy will win in concrete durability, but Lethe will have 17 more avo than him. Not spectacular, but seeing as 21 of the enemies in Endgame double him, he suffers pretty badly.

I dunno if this is really enough to have them switch places, and I'm sure there are several points I missed or wasn't very good about. All of my stat calculations were for the two while untransformed, since I can't be buggered to find out what the transformation bonuses are. Anywho, I still figure she's better.

[-Cynthia-]

I've been thinking,and I could honestly see Lethe and Mordecai switching places. In their joining chapters, she has lower ATK, but she also doubles more reliably. He does have a nice 4 point defense lead, and more HP, but she has about 15 extra Avo so it's not a total loss for Lethe. Also, Lethe starts the battle transformed, where Mordy has to wait until most of the fighting is done anyway, unless he uses a Laguz Stone.

As for later on, Lethe's SPD is consistently higher, meaning she'll be able to double more effectively. Let's take chapter 16. As laguz, we'll assume they're getting somewhere between .75 and 1 levels per chapter. Let's just suppose they're both about level 7. That would put them (untransformed) at:

Lethe: 15 AS

Mordecai: 11 AS

Mordecai really isn't doubling much. There are about 6 enemies he doubles, whereas Lethe doubles 22 of them. Of course, Mordy has more HP and DEF, but not doubling totally hurts his offense here.

As for supports, Mordecai wins here. Lethe's only option at this point is Jill, while Mordy has Illyana and Mist. We'll assume Lethe has C Jill, giving her basically nothing of value. Mordy might have C with Illyana and Mist. Clear win there.

In any case, Lethe's offense is only going to continue to beat out Mordecai's. Even at Endgame, where I'll assume they're both at level 14, Lethe will have about 20 SPD, where Mordy has 14. The slowest enemies in Endgame have 9 AS. He doubles, but that's only 8 of the enemies, or 20% of the enemies. Lethe, at 20 AS, only gets doubled by a Swordmaster, Ashnard, and the Brave Sword Pally. Mordy will win in concrete durability, but Lethe will have 17 more avo than him. Not spectacular, but seeing as 21 of the enemies in Endgame double him, he suffers pretty badly.

I dunno if this is really enough to have them switch places, and I'm sure there are several points I missed or wasn't very good about. All of my stat calculations were for the two while untransformed, since I can't be buggered to find out what the transformation bonuses are. Anywho, I still figure she's better.

Yeah, not including transform bonuses is kind of eh, they're on the site now you know :) Anyway, that +3 Spd makes a pretty big difference, Mordy doubles fairly reliably early, and only rarely gets doubled near Endgame. I do like how you covered Mordy's other advantages though, to make for a more fair comparison(though no mention of Smite). Maybe if you added the transform bonuses (we don't really care about untrnsformed laguz), that might make for a better comparison.

[Vykan12]

There are a couple things you're overlooking, Xort.

First, you seem to be underestimating their levels. Why would they both only be level 14 by endgame? If anything, they are amongst the most likely units to cap their level. Then you have to consider Mordy has an easier time getting speedwings than Lethe does with energy drops. Finally, Lethe doesn't even necessarily win damage output even if she doubles and Mordy doesn't. This is especially true against more durable enemies and also in lategame where low laguz Mt falters.

I'll need to see more #s before making a change.

[Dat Nick]

Then you have to consider Mordy has an easier time getting speedwings than Lethe does with energy drops.

Explain.

[Vykan12]

Most units have more trouble dishing out damage than they do actually doubling.

[-Cynthia-]

Ok, Tormod/Largo:

Just for kicks, let's see how Tormod does in his starting chapter:

Base Tormod is ORKOd by 10 enemies here. To 2RKO Tormod we only need 14 Atk, which every enemy except the thieves and mages reach. Basically, his durability is awful.

He's better offensively, but how much better?

He(forged thunder) can 2RKO all the Myrms, the theif and the archer, as well as the Knights. He 3RKOs everything else, except the boss/mages that he 4RKOs.

So yeah, he's going to need some BEXP. Question is, how much is fair?

We should have about 4000 BEXP at this time, assuming max BEXP. If we're using 10 characters, a fair amount of BEXP (10%) would give Tormod 4 levelups.

Level 11 Tormod is not getting ORKOd anymore, save for the boss. Defensively, 16 Atk is needed to 2RKO him,which every enemy except the theif, the mages, and one lone Iron Bow archer reach. Well over half the map 2RKOs him, essentially.

Offensively, he still 2RKO all the Myrms, except one weighed down that he ORKOS. He 2RKOS the fighters, ORKOS the Knight except for the highest level one. He generally 2RKOS most enemies, except a Steel Lance soldier he doubles, and he only 3RKOS promoted enemies. He's still usually 4RKOing Mages.

So basically, Tormod takes less rounds to die than it does to kill him, which is terrible at this point in the game, even when we factor in his 1-2 range.

Yadda yadda, it's really hard to see how Tormod can possibly be a positive before Largo joins, unless we want to dump epic amounts of resources into him. And while Tormod is relatively underleveled, he also has trouble gaining CEXP due to combat...issues. I'll put him at 20/4 when Largo joins, and I'll even give him a very favorable support set, which is a little questionable because Devdan and Calill are both pretty mediocre.

20/4 Tormod (A Devdan B Calill forged Thunder)

32 HP 32 Atk 18 AS 10 Def 18 Res 55 Avo

--/7 Largo (forged silver Axe/forged hand axe)

52 HP 42/33 Atk 20 AS 10 Def 3 Res 52 Avo

Largo is the more durable one here, except against mages who are raher uncommon(like like than 10% of enemies. To 2RKO Tormod, we need 26 Atk, 14 enemies on Ch25 reach this. No enemies 2HKO Largo.

When it comes to 3HKOs, we need 21 Atk to 3HKO Tormod, 26 enemies reach this. To 3HKO Largo we need 28 Atk, only 7 physical enemies reach this. Add in the fact that Largo does much better against boulders (1/5 of HP as opposed to 1/3) and Largo wins durability by a fair margin.

Offensively, Largo doubles 18 enemies, Tormod only doubles 13. When both KO in the same number of rounds, Largo wins due to higher crit. Largo wins offense if he uses a 1 range weapon. You might want to point out Tormod's 1-2 range, but Largo has pretty similar offense at 1-2 range anyway, so Largo's the offensive winner, epsecially if Tormod does not have a full support set. Really, the only advantage I see for Tormod is staves. Now, you might want to point out that Tormod could get more BEXP due to being underleveled, but we could easily do the same for Largo.

Let's look at a lategame comparison

20/13 Tormod (forged thunder A Devdan B Calill)

36.5 HP 36 Atk 22 AS 12 Def 22 Res 66 Avo

20/15 Largo(forged silver/hand axe B Muarim)

58 HP 48/39 Atk 24 AS 13 Def 6 Res 69 Avo

Same story basically, except Largo's Atk grew more, and the durability lead is a little higher.

So yeah, I'm not really seeing how Tormod's better unless we're valuing staves by a whole lot(and theere are plenty of staff users before Tormod joins and he doesn't get them for a while anyway). Or maybe I just hate children, who knows.

Edited July 25, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

Largo > Tormod for now. Perhaps the change is more in Tormod moving down, though Tino made a case that him and Ilyana should be reasonably close, so bleh.

[grandjackal]

Taur vs Ranulf anyone?

Basic layout.

Both

-Need to transform in some way

-Suck untransformed

-Weapon weaknesses

Taur

+Can counter when "untransformed", which is huge.

+Range weapons

+Effective weapons

+Forges

+Natural Resolve mixes well with other skills

-Worst move type imagineable

-Supports actually make him worse.

Ranulf

+Doesn't need to get his ass kicked to transform, which also means less actual shit combat.

+At max potential transformed (Taur's at half health, Ranulf isn't)

+Supports actually mean something to Ranulf.

+Sheer move difference.

+Demi-Band can keep him in a decent-stat transformed state.

-Has more weaknesses running around (laguz weapona dn fire magic>armorslaying weapons).

-Balls useless untransformed.

I'd say Ranulf's negatives do him in in the comparison, but feel free to argue it out.

[-Cynthia-]

Largo > Tormod for now. Perhaps the change is more in Tormod moving down, though Tino made a case that him and Ilyana should be reasonably close, so bleh.

Yeah, I could honestly see it going either way. Tormod obviously is getting stomped by Ranulf and Tauroneo in the durability department, but he has offense/1-2 range/lack of gauge over the former and offense/Mov over the latter, it's tough to call.

Tino did make the case for Tormod being close to Ilyana, but I think that has more to do with Ilyana being rather subpar lategame than anything else. Really, Ilyana's losing combat wise to almost everyone in Lower Mid(maybe not Taur) when they join, she might be a little overrated.

I would personally say the 3 Mov difference is pretty much a closer for Ranulf vs. Taur. Ranulf also has better offense unless Taur is in Resolve mode, but getting Taur into Resolve mode takes a while(harder than transforming Ranulf, especially when Demi Band is considered).

Edited July 25, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

I think lethe needs to go up. Edit: Not sure where though. I will let the data decide.

General Summary:I personally find that for lethe the guage is not a problem because she transforms at the beginning of the battle. By the time she is about to untransform for most battles the rest is mop up so I find her to be undetrimented by the gauge as long as you play a very offensive/low turn count playstyle which I feel many tier players play. Also on giant maps she can be carried by any of the cavalry units and as long as she is carried she will not lose gauge points. This makes her ideal for the prison chapter for taking out the boss and recruiting everyone and getting max bexp and it allows her to be transformed for just about any large map nearly the entire map like for example on chapter 21 and if she has to she can always just use a laguz stone. The key thing with lethe is that she is like a titania that joins later and ultimately kicks a bit more ass for midgame except for the lack of counter at a range and ultimately begins to falter towards the late game.

She has some of the best durability, high move, and doubles and kills most enemies in mid game very easily (or leaves them near death) and is a among the best of your units for quite some time.

Now excuse me while I prepare my data for how she does on a chapter to chapter basis which might take a while.

Edit Again: I prob won't be finished typing this all out until tomorrow.

Edit Final: OMG HER SUPPORTS ARE HORRIBLE! She ain't lacking for durability although no one wants her.... Oh well less stuff to type anyway. She is never building a support with ike and ranulf gives her nothing but avoid and has lolavailability so she is stuck with jill/muarim (who want others) for a +2 defense boost/+15 avoid at max... Might as well not even bother although it might be good for helping her out at endgame.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Lancelot