Shining Force

[Colonel M]

Arsome series from the Sega systems. Discuss it.

(Also hopes to make Tier lists for these games that aren't incorrect like the refixing of my SF2 one).

Favorite: SF2. Definitely an epic game IMO. RoTDD wasn't bad either but I slightly preffered the original in some areas. Supernova was badass though.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[TheEnd]

Awesome series indeed; I should get around to playing Shining Force 3 someday. Too bad my PC can't emulate Saturn too well...

I actually tend to have more fun playing Shining Force than Fire Emblem; not only it's more forgiving (lolreviving, lolegress), but also it doesn't annoy me with random low level ups. Well, except in SF1...

SF2 is indeed epic, but I had a better time with SFCD for personal reasons.

[grandjackal]

Shining Force is fucking awesome. Would have been astounding without revival. However, perfectly good as is.

Love me some of the original 2 games, though I never had the chance to play the third. Still though, Zylo is fucking awesome, and so is SF2 Luke!

Audience: SF2 LUKE SUCKS!

Well fuck you people!

[Colonel M]

I should re-whip that SF2 Tier list and this time rethink how it should work out. Maybe RoTDD can have one too since I got it back. Mawlock for his own seperate tier lawl.

Luke isn't wtfterrible since he has the movement and flight advantage, but his durability is perhaps my main qualm with him.

[grandjackal]

RotDD is garbage of a remake. Took everything good about the old game and ruined it. Whatever balance problems it had are made worse. Then threw in Narsha, Zuika and lolMawlock. It's rediculous.

At least the characters have a bit of personality then...But apply it to the past, lots more fun.

...Zylo rules.

[Colonel M]

Some of RotDD's mechanics I disagree with (balance being slightly lopsided but at least Hans / Ken became slightly useful) but the improvement of difficulty after beating the game more than once gave it something SF1 lacked. I don't think it's to the point where I'm going to brag to the top of the hill and back, but it's not that terrible of a remake IMO. Seriously though: why put Mawlock as early as the first battle!?!

[grandjackal]

Some of RotDD's mechanics I disagree with (balance being slightly lopsided but at least Hans / Ken became slightly useful) but the improvement of difficulty after beating the game more than once gave it something SF1 lacked. I don't think it's to the point where I'm going to brag to the top of the hill and back, but it's not that terrible of a remake IMO. Seriously though: why put Mawlock as early as the first battle!?!

I see just replaying the game fair enough, just add difficulty settings. Instead, you gotta beat the game again over and over to make it harder.

As for Ken and Hans, from my standpoint they're even worse. Ken just seems to not hit as hard, and Hans just..didn't get much fo a boost compared to everyone else.

[Colonel M]

You also have to remember that not everyone is WTFbroken though. Max was borderline upon it in the first one anyway, the new characters yes I'll concede to, Guntz was already there, Zylo is still a shining unit, then there's the only real noticable one like Earnest. Everyone else is more or less the same though some got a big dumping. Hans gets a benefit of some of the good arrows coming at him... sort of. He still sucks just not as badly as his SF1 counterpart. Ditto with Ken though his bad Def stands out a bit more. Though I feel Mae got nerfed slightly and the mages needs major level ups on promotion or continue to Lv 20 just to get the good spells sucks.

[grandjackal]

You also have to remember that not everyone is WTFbroken though. Max was borderline upon it in the first one anyway, the new characters yes I'll concede to, Guntz was already there, Zylo is still a shining unit, then there's the only real noticable one like Earnest. Everyone else is more or less the same though some got a big dumping. Hans gets a benefit of some of the good arrows coming at him... sort of. He still sucks just not as badly as his SF1 counterpart. Ditto with Ken though his bad Def stands out a bit more. Though I feel Mae got nerfed slightly and the mages needs major level ups on promotion or continue to Lv 20 just to get the good spells sucks.

Mae is basically Ken with defense.

Max was nowhere near this broken in the pass, before promotion he was pretty easy to kill. No longer the case, and on top of it they gave him that fucking Supernova spell. He's rediculous in the remake.

Hans got slightly buffed, but almost everyone around him got major buffs and got god tiers now. Ken's just went from not being worth your time to REALLY not being worth your time.

Oh, Hanzou and Musashi. Remember them? Nowhere near as hilariously broken as they are in the remake. Hanzou could practically solo the game once you get him.

[Colonel M]

Oh, Hanzou and Musashi. Remember them? Nowhere near as hilariously broken as they are in the remake. Hanzou could practically solo the game once you get him.

They still have availability issues. Just not as blinding as in FE1. Forgot about those two though. >_>;

(Lol Hanzou is awesome).

Don't forget that not even SD was perfect since there still is brokeness in the game (forging, Zag + Wolf, etc).

Edited August 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Oh, Hanzou and Musashi. Remember them? Nowhere near as hilariously broken as they are in the remake. Hanzou could practically solo the game once you get him.

They still have availability issues. Just not as blinding as in FE1. Forgot about those two though. >_>;

(Lol Hanzou is awesome).

Don't forget that not even SD was perfect since there still is brokeness in the game (forging, Zag + Wolf, etc).

They show up and beat the shit out of anyone in your team. Wolf and Zag seem tame compared to Hanzou and Musashi. Seriously, Hanzou is the Hatori Hanzou of strategy, he just murders like a motherfucker.

[Prince Levin]

Just got into this series recently. Played SF1 remake, SF2 and am in the process of playing SF CD. Zylo is cool, but it seems I have bad luck with beastmen since him, Gestalt...and now Gyan (SF CD bk 1) are pretty subpar (Zylo was definitely the best of the 3).

SF1 had really memorable characters like Gort the veteren Dwarf, Bleu the cowardly dragon, and Guntz the rhino in a steam suit...I also thought it had the better story out of SF1 and 2. However SF2 had a lot or humor and charm, and what was so cool was it was like a regular RPG such as say Dragon Quest but with strategic battles. Really unique in that way. SF CD is more like FE, in you go from battle to battle without any exploration.

It is a real fun series from what I've experienced thusfar, light hearted, with a simple but entertaining battle system. Terrain is used to great effect, and the map layouts are often very interesting making the strategic focus more on positioning.

BTW Shining Force 3, fan made translation patches are being made for Scenarios 2 and 3.

[Colonel M]

Now that I think about it the only thing that makes Zuika absolutely "broken" is his Terminator mode at half HP. Then he has durability to worry about though and, IIRC, some of the stuff caps somewhere. Earlygame (Epilogue Parts) are a given.

Peter and Karna still break the game in SF2 more than this guy almost, IMO only Mawlock perhaps breaks the game more (Karna is about equals to Narsha). Zuika's main advantage is the Terminator mode throwing him 2 range capabilities.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Now that I think about it the only thing that makes Zuika absolutely "broken" is his Terminator mode at half HP. Then he has durability to worry about though and, IIRC, some of the stuff caps somewhere. Earlygame (Epilogue Parts) are a given.

It;s hard to even get him there and he's strong as is. Once he goes rapeface, he's nigh unstoppable. He just runs around and murders everything.

Peter and Karna still break the game in SF2 more than this guy almost, IMO only Mawlock perhaps breaks the game more (Karna is about equals to Narsha). Zuika's main advantage is the Terminator mode throwing him 2 range capabilities.

Peter is incredibly strong, but only statistically since you get so much gold that revival shouldn't be an issue anyways. He is pretty rediculous, but I wouldn't consider him a gamebreaker by any means. Nor would I consider Karna one, she just joins a bit late for my tastes, and only thing she has going for her until she gets the heavy duty spells is trying to ram her level up with Boost. Just Boosting over and over is useless to my team and doesn't help me proceed faster when my guys are already buffed up.

Again, both are strong, but not on a Hanzou or a Zagaro scale. You couldn't just solo the game with them.

[Colonel M]

I'd say soloing with Peter wouldn't be that difficult. Dunno about Karna since Aura wouldn't be so useful but Boost is still useful in that game. Especially since you like Luke: Boost gives Def!

It's not that difficult to throw Zuika into Terminator / Overdrive / Whatever mode. You'd be surprised.

[Colonel M]

Whipped up a Tier list for SF2. Probably quite a few inconsistencies but I'm still debating on some characters.

-Peter Tier-

Peter

-Top Tier-

Jaha

Bowie

Sarah

Kazin

Gerhalt

-High Tier-

Chester

Rick

Karna

Slade

May

Elric

Luke

-Mid Tier-

Rohde

Tyrin

Randolf

Eric

Jaro

Frayja

Gyan

Taya

Lemon

-Low Tier-

Higgins

Janet

Zynk

Claude

Skreech

Sheela

Chaz

-Kiwi Tier-

Not Kiwi

Kiwi

Changes:

---

I'm going to assume it's the hardest difficulty. Efficiency as well so cutting down on the Egress abuse. As for the 4 units assume that they're joining early. Also assume that there isn't a penalty for taking them (I can imagine someone doing this for everyone but Karna).

Too bad I can't make it into a seperate topic so if you still want to discuss something other than the Tier list feel free to do so.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Whipped up a Tier list for SF2. Probably quite a few inconsistencies but I'm still debating on some characters.

-Peter Tier-

Peter

-Top Tier-

Karna

Sarah

Bowie

Gerhalt

Jaha

-High Tier-

Kazin

Slade

Chester

Rick

May

Tyrin

-Mid Tier-

Luke

Elric

Rohde

Lemon

Randolf

Jaro

Janet

-Low Tier-

Gyan

Zynk

Claude

Taya

Skreech

Sheela

Eric

-Bottom Tier-

Kiwi

Chaz

Higgins

Frayja

Changes:

---

I'm going to assume it's the hardest difficulty. Efficiency as well so cutting down on the Egress abuse. As for the 4 units assume that they're joining early. Also assume that there isn't a penalty for taking them (I can imagine someone doing this for everyone but Karna). Some I'm confused on:

- Eric. Where to put him.

- Higgins > Chaz? At least Higgins comes at a bit more of a reasonable timeframe. Chaz does at least have Freeze Lv 3 though... but 4 is IIRC 6 levels away.

- Elric a tier under May? I found him underwhelming even on the easiest of modes. In fact, I'm hard pressed to put him lower near Janet's place.

- Rohde? He's not that bad really and despite 5 Mov he has 2-3 range going for him and a little bit of Def too. I'm thinking a bit higher wouldn't be a bad idea.

- Rick and Chester > Slade and Kazin? Kazin's not bad but he's reliant on promoting early and then he runs into some MP problems due to it (assuming Sorcerer). Slade's earlygame is a bit underwhelming compared to these guys too.

- Sarah and Karna. This is eerily close IMO. One has been useful since the beginning and could likely be your only healer while the latter IS the best healer and has Boost to make it even more painful (Heal Lv 3 and Aura really helps too). Others stated how easy it is to get Karna going too if you got her late and decided to use a little Egress abusing.

- Randolf higher perhaps. Looking at those base stats assuming they're correct (38 HP | 40 Def | 52 Atk screams WTF!?!).

Too bad I can't make it into a seperate topic so if you still want to discuss something other than the Tier list feel free to do so.

Haw Haw Haw, so many things wrong...

1. Peter's teh best unit in hte game, but I'd still hesitate to put him in his own tier...

2. No way in hell should Karna be that high, especially not above Sarah. She just joins a bit late.

3. Bowie below Jaha. When Jaha dies, we don't have to restart a map, and we don't suddenly lose half our gold, key thing early on. Jaha's just too damn tough. This alone should put him above Gerhalt.

4. Chester and Rick can't hit 4 people at once and can be pretty decent as a Wizard anyways (blaze 4 is weak, but it's MP efficient). Slade though? Yeah, they could stand to be above him.

5. Eric's a pretty mid dude. He's basically a slightly harder hitting Chester that doesn't die as easy, but missing for about half the game.

6. LUKESHOULDBEHIGHERMOSTMOBILEANDEARLIESTCOMINGHEALEROMG! D :

7. I remember something about Elric insta-promoting...

8. Wtf is Tyrin doing in high?

9. Why the fuck is Lemon in mid? Being ok statistically for 3 battles while not caring about cursed equipment is not mid material.

10. Janet has no business being that high.

11. Gyan's mid material out of toughness alone.

12. Higgins should bottom out low.

13. You fucking kidding me? Frajya in bottom? He's at least mid.

[Colonel M]

Going at it piece by piece:

Haw Haw Haw, so many things wrong...

1. Peter's teh best unit in hte game, but I'd still hesitate to put him in his own tier...

No cost if he dies, pretty fucking durable, h4x attack, h4x flight, AND resistance to Fire? How does that NOT define him his own tier? He's almost Seth / Titania like except he doesn't deteriorate like them.

2. No way in hell should Karna be that high, especially not above Sarah. She just joins a bit late.

I've been inclined to put Sara > Karna anyway. Her being that high comes with Boost easily nuking her levels up the ass and one of the only users of Aura in general (only lolFrayja is the contender).

3. Bowie below Jaha. When Jaha dies, we don't have to restart a map, and we don't suddenly lose half our gold, key thing early on. Jaha's just too damn tough. This alone should put him above Gerhalt.

Bowie is also a frigging nuke and required to beat the Taros. Jaha also has some minor durability issues early on but over Gerhalt I can see. Bowie dropping is going to take a little bit more than "dying problems" though since he is pretty good on his own and dying shouldn't be a major major issue.

4. Chester and Rick can't hit 4 people at once and can be pretty decent as a Wizard anyways (blaze 4 is weak, but it's MP efficient). Slade though? Yeah, they could stand to be above him.

Technically Kazin is only hitting one person (more people targetted the less damage is delivered). I guess > Slade is fine then.

5. Eric's a pretty mid dude. He's basically a slightly harder hitting Chester that doesn't die as easy, but missing for about half the game.

Weren't you the one that stated that he sucked though? Perhaps in Mid wouldn't be so bad though.

6. LUKESHOULDBEHIGHERMOSTMOBILEANDEARLIESTCOMINGHEALEROMG! D :

...He's also not so great in durability and Atk is a bit underwhelming. He's pretty high just because of mobility and flight. Next.

7. I remember something about Elric insta-promoting...

*Facepalm*. K, I'll put him below May again.

8. Wtf is Tyrin doing in high?

Tyrin is one of the few units that can actually hurt more than one person and is capable of learning Lv 4 spells. Some don't come for a while though so I wouldn't have a major issue dropping him down a tier.

9. Why the fuck is Lemon in mid? Being ok statistically for 3 battles while not caring about cursed equipment is not mid material.

Availability is the main thing. I treated him as a Gato-like character and slid him in the very middle. Top of Mid is probably not a bad choice though, but if there ARE others that speak on it we'll see.

10. Janet has no business being that high.

She joins slightly later than Elric and is more or less the same. Low is almost pushing it as too low.

11. Gyan's mid material out of toughness alone.

I'd almost be inclined to, but then Zynk would be a decent contender because he has a chance of piercing Def (unfortunately it doesn't come out as often as I'd like it to). Bah, Gyan in Mid seems better.

12. Higgins should bottom out low.

13. You fucking kidding me? Frajya in bottom? He's at least mid.

Higgins is better than Frajya... sorta. The latter not only lacks combat but spells as well. I need to re-figure how the Spells work though. I'll put Frayja under Sheela for now until I figureit out.

[Dat Nick]

Frayja below Kiwi is far more mind boggling. Frayja is forced for a chapter and can heal as good as the next dude. What the hell is Kiwi doing, besides sucking?

Speaking of Kiwi, what the hell is he doing anywhere but dead last? I daresay Kiwi deserves his own tier.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Colonel M]

I put Kiwi < Frayja anyway.

As I said I have to look further into the spell ordeal. If he can at least get Heal Lv 4 or an Aura that's not Level 1 at a reasonable time I'll put him up more.

EDIT: Kiwi can absorb some non-Mage attacks earlygame. He's at least got the Def... so he's like a mini-utility unit in a sort of way.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Well Chaz is still better than Kiwi. Freeze 3 at base>>Kiwi.

[Colonel M]

Kiwi also didn't eat up a slot for a while. 12 units doesn't come until IIRC Rick joins.

I'm almost tempted just to put him below Chaz but Chaz doesn't really have anything other than Freeze Lv 3 that stands out and he also eats up a unit slot...

EDIT: Fuck it, Kiwi < Chaz it is.

Edited August 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Lemon is nowhere near Gotoh status, he's just another dude of which you can just slap cursed gear on without remorse (but they STILL effect him). He's not utility, he's just usable. I'd put him below the likes of Claude really.

[Colonel M]

I unno about under Claude only because I don't see anything that Claude is brining is a major positive. No problems dropping him but if anything he'd go over Zynk and Claude unless you have some reasoning to it...

[grandjackal]

I unno about under Claude only because I don't see anything that Claude is brining is a major positive. No problems dropping him but if anything he'd go over Zynk and Claude unless you have some reasoning to it...

Because we don't need to slap cursed gear on Claude and Zynk to make them worth the team, and thus they won't glitch up every now and then. Seriously, without cursed gear, Lemon turns no heads.