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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

Also, why not chastise him for the mistake, instead of the apology is what I'm really asking. I mean if he admits he did wrong, then tearing him a new one doesn't help.

Edited by Meow

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would leave if that was the case.

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would leave if that was the case.

I see that on SO many forums. "I'll leave if the staff doesn't change." Then they either stay, or come back when nothing changes. People acting like them leaving is going to end the forum and teach the staff a "lesson" when not everyone leaves, and half the people who claim they're going to leave don't.

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would leave if that was the case.

I see that on SO many forums. "I'll leave if the staff doesn't change." Then they either stay, or come back when nothing changes. People acting like them leaving is going to end the forum and teach the staff a "lesson" when not everyone leaves, and half the people who claim they're going to leave don't.

You asked a question. I answered it.

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

Also, why not chastise him for the mistake, instead of the apology is what I'm really asking. I mean if he admits he did wrong, then tearing him a new one doesn't help.

He would lose respect, and with a loss of respect is a loss of power over your member base. Some would leave, but some would just cause shit. And once you ban a large group of people, the place kind of loses its spunk. And once that happens, the forum generally dies completely. If you can't follow your own rules, then you're a hypocrite, and neither you nor your rules are worth obeying.

Just because someone apologizes doesn't mean everything is honky-dory. If BK or anyone else who was involved doesn't feel like the apology was worthwhile (e.g. a lot of "well I was justified in doing this") or heartfelt, then there's reason to question it.

Edited by Crystal Shards

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

Also, why not chastise him for the mistake, instead of the apology is what I'm really asking. I mean if he admits he did wrong, then tearing him a new one doesn't help.

He would lose respect, and with a loss of respect is a loss of power over your member base. Some would leave, but some would just cause shit. And once you ban a large group of people, the place kind of loses its spunk. And once that happens, the forum generally dies completely. If you can't follow your own rules, then you're a hypocrite, and neither you nor your rules are worth obeying.

Just because someone apologizes doesn't mean everything is honky-dory. If BK or anyone else who was involved doesn't feel like the apology was worthwhile (e.g. a lot of "well I was justified in doing this") or heartfelt, then there's reason to question it.

Something tells me not enough people would care to kill the forum, but to each their own.

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

Also, why not chastise him for the mistake, instead of the apology is what I'm really asking. I mean if he admits he did wrong, then tearing him a new one doesn't help.

He would lose respect, and with a loss of respect is a loss of power over your member base. Some would leave, but some would just cause shit. And once you ban a large group of people, the place kind of loses its spunk. And once that happens, the forum generally dies completely. If you can't follow your own rules, then you're a hypocrite, and neither you nor your rules are worth obeying.

Just because someone apologizes doesn't mean everything is honky-dory. If BK or anyone else who was involved doesn't feel like the apology was worthwhile (e.g. a lot of "well I was justified in doing this") or heartfelt, then there's reason to question it.

Something tells me not enough people would care to kill the forum, but to each their own.

You don't have to care.

Edited by Crystal Shards

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

Also, why not chastise him for the mistake, instead of the apology is what I'm really asking. I mean if he admits he did wrong, then tearing him a new one doesn't help.

He would lose respect, and with a loss of respect is a loss of power over your member base. Some would leave, but some would just cause shit. And once you ban a large group of people, the place kind of loses its spunk. And once that happens, the forum generally dies completely. If you can't follow your own rules, then you're a hypocrite, and neither you nor your rules are worth obeying.

Just because someone apologizes doesn't mean everything is honky-dory. If BK or anyone else who was involved doesn't feel like the apology was worthwhile (e.g. a lot of "well I was justified in doing this") or heartfelt, then there's reason to question it.

Something tells me not enough people would care to kill the forum, but to each their own.

You don't have to care.

What I mean is not enough people will care to get pissed off and leave and accumulate to a high enough number to where it would kill the forum. I RARELY see that happen on any forum no matter how corrupt the staff is. Hell, you ever been to Datebayo? They ban you for all kinds of dumb shit, and yet their site is still thriving. The staff treats everyone like utter garbage. Something tells me people aren't here for the staff to treat them like this is a democracy...

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What I mean is not enough people will care to get pissed off and leave and accumulate to a high enough number to where it would kill the forum. I RARELY see that happen on any forum no matter how corrupt the staff is. Hell, you ever been to Datebayo? They ban you for all kinds of dumb shit, and yet their site is still thriving. The staff treats everyone like utter garbage. Something tells me people aren't here for the staff to treat them like this is a democracy...

I guess that's where our experience differs, because I've seen several forums fail thanks to hypocritical administrators. I didn't say this needed to be a democracy either; I don't really see where anyone did. I'm just saying that Josh needs to learn a little more self-control, so he doesn't get ripped apart as much--whether he apologizes or not.

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Hell, you ever been to Datebayo?

Apples and oranges. Dattebayo is a fansubbing group, for one, and their forums are always going to be getting people simply because of that.

Secondly, the Naruto fandom in general (Not all fans, just the assembled fandom) has routinely shown itself to be completely braindead.

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No one expects him to be the best admin, but he should at least not pull stunts he wouldn't want his own members/staff to pull. Having to apologize this much is kind of a problem.

That said, I was moving into my room at school and I have no idea what happened, so I can't really judge the apology.

Just throwin' this out there, but I just want to know: What would people do if he didn't stop pulling these "stunts"? What exactly is the plan then?

Also, why not chastise him for the mistake, instead of the apology is what I'm really asking. I mean if he admits he did wrong, then tearing him a new one doesn't help.

I'm sure the people who come here often will eventually get mad and not give a fuck about their behavior. A bad environment like that doesn't really attract new people. The forum would gradually die.

The admin has a lot of weight on his/her shoulders. They must continue to run their site in a mature, proper, and professional manner. If that doesn't happen, things will go bad.

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I see that on SO many forums. "I'll leave if the staff doesn't change." Then they either stay, or come back when nothing changes. People acting like them leaving is going to end the forum and teach the staff a "lesson" when not everyone leaves, and half the people who claim they're going to leave don't.

Actually, a lot of people do, it's just you don't notice because people who aren't there aren't exceptionally vocal. The only times you notice them is when they pop in briefly every now and then for quick amusement. ;3

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I'm on Meow's side here, so he made a mistake! He apologised, that's what people are supposed to do! Give the poor guy a break, you lot are always getting on his case!

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I'm on Meow's side here, so he made a mistake! He apologised, that's what people are supposed to do! Give the poor guy a break, you lot are always getting on his case!

People are always getting on his case? Gee, maybe it's because he does a lot of things that require people getting on his case?

Blindly defending him isn't going to help anything. Yes, he apologized, yes, he manned up- But if he does stuff like this again, what's this going to have accomplished? Jack shit.

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If Josh were to continue to pull these "stunts" - that is, basically trying to keep his ego in the worst ways possible - it would have a cumulative effect on the memberbase. Sure, some people loyal to him would stick around because hey, they don't care, but it would not only start to effect a lot of regular members, it would also impact word of mouth in terms of attracting new members. It's not something you see within a 24 hour period; it takes place over time, and ultimately affects the whole memberbase before they know what hit them.

If there's one thing I am concerned about, it's that Josh is the sole decision maker. Josh, I don't think you have the temperament for that. I was looking at the announcements forum and saw yet another apology you were basically forced into making. Yet another apology you had to make due to your decision making. You can spin that any way you want, but it's getting old. Not the fact that you made the apologies; despite the fact I had to really wring your arm, just making one takes guts. But the fact that you continually make decisions that require apologies after the fact is disconcerting. And that's not the fault of Tino for pushing for the unapprove system, nor is it Blacken's fault because he's continually - to this day - stirring the pot, nor is it Fox's, CMS's, or anyone's fault because they said something you construed as spam. It's yours. You're the leader here, and that goes beyond updating the forums and just having the big stick. It's your job to set the example, You're the leader of these people, and if you're not an effective one... your people will leave over time, either due to your actions or just due to the fact that there's less "lulz" to be had due to the lack of members.

Josh, what CMS was talking about with a system of "checks and balances" is not a democracy. You need someone to pull you back from the brink when you start to go over. I see when you start losing your cool; you start to flail, and lose control, and start lashing out at everyone. You've done it since you were 14 years old, and it's still a part of your makeup. You need another person - JESUS, where is Glenn when we need him? - to smack you back into shape when things start going wrong. You need another admin to play off of, who's strengths make up for your weaknesses and who's weaknesses make up for your strengths. Vincent is not that person; he's too passive, and has no desire to lead, he'd rather just help people with their games. I'm not that person; you and I could never have that coexistent relationship considering our history from the FESS days, and frankly, and with my own history, no one - even me - would see me as subordinate. Popo's not that person; she's a great lieutenant, but not a Colonel. Tino's not that person; he's too cold and impersonal. Glenn isn't around enough to be that person, and if he is, he needs to speak up quick. You need a second person to back you up, defend you when you deserve it... and grab you by the hair when you don't. A forum that's the size you want this to be cannot have *one* singular leader; it's too much work, and your personality is not equipped for it. I know this from experience; Eaichu, Dale and, yes, even Jet were there when I started to fall to my biggest vice: my temper. Dale was there to pull Jet back until the very end. When Blacken was on my staff, I was there to control him until I had to fire him; imagine if I wasn't around running things then. You have to put aside your ego on this one and get help; that's what REAL leaders do. No one's infallible, and trying to put across that you are - which you did, until I put such heavy pressure on you - just makes you look that much worse, and if you don't believe me, do a search on Yosef Stalin sometime.

Edited by Superbus

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If there's one thing I am concerned about, it's that Josh is the sole decision maker. Josh, I don't think you have the temperament for that. I was looking at the announcements forum and saw yet another apology you were basically forced into making. Yet another apology you had to make due to your decision making. You can spin that any way you want, but it's getting old. Not the fact that you made the apologies; despite the fact I had to really wring your arm, just making one takes guts. But the fact that you continually make decisions that require apologies after the fact is disconcerting. And that's not the fault of Tino for pushing for the unapprove system, nor is it Blacken's fault because he's continually - to this day - stirring the pot, nor is it Fox's, CMS's, or anyone's fault because they said something you construed as spam. It's yours. You're the leader here, and that goes beyond updating the forums and just having the big stick. It's your job to set the example, You're the leader of these people, and if you're not an effective one... your people will leave over time, either due to your actions or just due to the fact that there's less "lulz" to be had due to the lack of members.

Josh, what CMS was talking about with a system of "checks and balances" is not a democracy. You need someone to pull you back from the brink when you start to go over. I see when you start losing your cool; you start to flail, and lose control, and start lashing out at everyone. You've done it since you were 14 years old, and it's still a part of your makeup. You need another person - JESUS, where is Glenn when we need him? - to smack you back into shape when things start going wrong. You need another admin to play off of, who's strengths make up for your weaknesses and who's weaknesses make up for your strengths. Vincent is not that person; he's too passive, and has no desire to lead, he'd rather just help people with their games. I'm not that person; you and I could never have that coexistent relationship considering our history from the FESS days, and frankly, and with my own history, no one - even me - would see me as subordinate. Popo's not that person; she's a great lieutenant, but not a Colonel. Tino's not that person; he's too cold and impersonal. Glenn isn't around enough to be that person, and if he is, he needs to speak up quick. You need a second person to back you up, defend you when you deserve it... and grab you by the hair when you don't. A forum that's the size you want this to be cannot have *one* singular leader; it's too much work, and your personality is not equipped for it. I know this from experience; Eaichu, Dale and, yes, even Jet were there when I started to fall to my biggest vice: my temper. Dale was there to pull Jet back until the very end. When Blacken was on my staff, I was there to control him until I had to fire him; imagine if I wasn't around running things then. You have to put aside your ego on this one and get help; that's what REAL leaders do. No one's infallible, and trying to put across that you are - which you did, until I put such heavy pressure on you - just makes you look that much worse, and if you don't believe me, do a search on Yosef Stalin sometime.

I realized this over a month ago. The problem is, and I'll just say this honestly here: I don't see anyone on these forums fit to fill that position. The few people that may be fit for it, have no desire to do so, despite their activity on the forum. I know myself a lot better than you give me credit for. I realize my ego gets the best of me, and that I'm not very good at being the sole decision maker. It was much less of an issue when these forums started, and that's why these problems didn't occur back then (This is long before FESS closed). I've been looking for someone I can rely on to keep me in check for a long while, but I have failed to find anyone. This may not be the best place to discuss this, since it's in public, and it shows a huge weakness in me as a leader, but I don't give a shit right now, it needs to be said.

As of the current moment, my only option is to change myself, at least my temperament on these forums, until I can fit the position of being sole decision maker, without coming across as a tyrant. I think I may have been doing it right a long time ago, when I first made these forums, but when FESS closed and a bunch of people came here, I had people whipping my back telling me I needed to tighten things up. Maybe that was true in some sense, but the results of me attempting to do so were not good. I'll stick with my original plan, on how I was going to lead things. I've never talked about that with anybody, so you'll just have to wait it out and see how things turn out. I started returning to this, as of yesterday.

Edit:

As an afternote, those who are trying to push the point home; there's no reason for you to do so. I've already realized my mistake, I understand what the consequences of continuing that behavior could be and fighting with my other members over this issue is retarded. Just go back to posting normally. This is the main reason I locked this thread to begin with. The only real contributing post I see here so far is Superbus'.

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At least you are not in denial. That would be bad. Realisation is a good step forward. Taking it a step at a time is the best thing to do, the results will show sooner or later.

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As an afternote, those who are trying to push the point home; there's no reason for you to do so. I've already realized my mistake, I understand what the consequences of continuing that behavior could be and fighting with my other members over this issue is retarded. Just go back to posting normally. This is the main reason I locked this thread to begin with. The only real contributing post I see here so far is Superbus'.

I wasn't pushing the point home for your sake. I know you get it.

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As an afternote, those who are trying to push the point home; there's no reason for you to do so. I've already realized my mistake, I understand what the consequences of continuing that behavior could be and fighting with my other members over this issue is retarded. Just go back to posting normally. This is the main reason I locked this thread to begin with. The only real contributing post I see here so far is Superbus'.

I wasn't pushing the point home for your sake. I know you get it.

Regardless of whether or not it's for my sake, bickering over it with my other members is pointless. That goes for the ones that came to my defense as well. I don't want anyone fighting in this topic. Not anymore at least.

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Yeah, I was wondering why people were arguing with each other over an apology. o-O

Whenever you get a group of people together, you will inevitably have situations like this because it is in some people's nature to always see the fault. Whether justified or not, no one in a position of authority over others is exempt from criticisms of anything they do unless they take steps to quash the freedom of those people to criticise. (This will often draw criticism of its own) The simple fact of the matter is that no one in a position of authority over others is allowed to win in any case whatsoever. It's simply not possible.

This applies across the board from presidencies to internet forum moderation.

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I've got a great idea. How about we all pretend this never happened. That would be nice. :awesome:

Edited by Reinfleche

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Yeah, I was wondering why people were arguing with each other over an apology. o-O

Whenever you get a group of people together, you will inevitably have situations like this because it is in some people's nature to always see the fault. Whether justified or not, no one in a position of authority over others is exempt from criticisms of anything they do unless they take steps to quash the freedom of those people to criticise. (This will often draw criticism of its own) The simple fact of the matter is that no one in a position of authority over others is allowed to win in any case whatsoever. It's simply not possible.

This applies across the board from presidencies to internet forum moderation.

Sadly, this is the inevitable, total, and inescapable truth.

I think that's one of the most insightful things you've posted, Willfor.

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Yeah, I was wondering why people were arguing with each other over an apology. o-O

Whenever you get a group of people together, you will inevitably have situations like this because it is in some people's nature to always see the fault. Whether justified or not, no one in a position of authority over others is exempt from criticisms of anything they do unless they take steps to quash the freedom of those people to criticise. (This will often draw criticism of its own) The simple fact of the matter is that no one in a position of authority over others is allowed to win in any case whatsoever. It's simply not possible.

This applies across the board from presidencies to internet forum moderation.

Of course, but this isn't even about winning, so I find their arguments pointless. If somebody is unwilling to accept another person's apology, there's really nothing you can do about it.

IMO, if all people think about is "winning", you're going to get nowhere fast.

Edited by Eltoshen

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