Clock Abuse Tutorial

[Hatari]

ok, thanks. need to restart the chapter then and use the save point after i force the boss to use up his entire weapon. yay marth is going to be the dumby who gets hit and heal.

Hopefully then...Wrys will get tons of exp healing him and hmm, dang, I'll need to buy some mend/heal staves before the arena in chapter 4.

*goes to read to figure out if you can clock abuse the arena since there really isn't any OHKO, unless you have 30 str and are against a mage...yay cord*

[Meteor]

You have to be especially careful when you're boss abusing not to kill him with a critical hit.

As for arena and clock abusing simultaneously, I'm not sure there's a way to do that. What I do instead is block a chokepoint with Wolf/Sedgar, and have them keep a cache of enemies to kill when I get up to 99 exp from the arena. It takes some care to actually get to 99 experience; you have to find wagers that will result in 30 experience, allowing you to reach 90, then kill an enemy from the map for the other 10.

[Hatari]

yeah, that's the only down side...critical, too bad we can't turn them off.

...the chokepoint would work with a boss too right? just damaging him, I mean...he heals himself too. Yeah, i'm trying to determine exp vs. wager...hmm, XD, should have done it from my last full arena run.

Edit: I'm thinking of doing another full arena run, so I might do that for normal mode. (not that many of you play normal mode, but it might be useful).

I'll see what I can come up with...

Edited February 21, 2010 by Hatari

[Sykil]

Tested

08-27-2009 11:10 [50, ?, 10, ?, ?, ?, 5, ?] Cleric Catria +3; by Uiru

with a Dark Mage Draug and got +Mag, Skill, and Spd, so that's at most

[50, ?, 10, 40, 60, ?, 5, ?]

assuming nothing funky happened. Woots.

Edited April 22, 2010 by Sykil

[GR8MasterGab96]

I found an Merric-friend +5 or +6(not sure)

27/8/2009 15:43 hp, mag, skill, spd, luck, def and/or res

WARNING!FOR THIS ONE TO WORK YOU MUST FINISH AN ENEMY WITH A DEATH QUOTE!!!!IT WONT WORK IF THERE IS NO DEATH QUOTE!!!

[shadowjam]

glad this is pinned, or else this post might've not existed. :)

anyway, I have a question.

I tested the res growth rate for marth to see if dynamic growths impact total growth rates so that if the stats involved increase too many consecutive times, then the total growth rate for a particular stat is below the total growth rate listed on the listed growth rates here, and I have trouble understanding that part on the topic creator's post that says "beware of dynamic growths".

^ Is it true or false that if marth's res increases enough, marth's res growth rate goes down to 1 after 5 level ups in res(2* .1 = 0.2; 0.2*5 = 1; 2-1 = 1), thus proving that part's statement true, or can marth increase res as many consecutive times as he wants, as long as the RNs generated are at least equal to or below 2, proving that dynamic growths don't impact the total growth rate if the total dynamic growth rate is negative, meaning the total growth rate for a particular stat doesn't figure the dynamic growth rate if negative, meaning if dynamic growths is negative, the growth rates don't go down from whatever stat's growth he/she started with, or wound up with after reclassing, as a result of dynamic growths?

Edited July 27, 2010 by shadowjam

[Meteor]

From what I've seen, negative dynamic growths are completely ignored. In fact, I'm not even sure they can ever become negative. After getting a +1 in a stat, I believe the dynamic growth gets reset to 0, instead of -10%. So, to answer your question, no. Marth's Res growth can never be less than 2% (I think).

I have not thoroughly tested this because it has never made a difference for me. If you find a definite answer, I would be curious to hear of your findings.

[shadowjam]

From what I've seen, negative dynamic growths are completely ignored. In fact, I'm not even sure they can ever become negative. After getting a +1 in a stat, I believe the dynamic growth gets reset to 0, instead of -10%. So, to answer your question, no. Marth's Res growth can never be less than 2% (I think).

I have not thoroughly tested this because it has never made a difference for me. If you find a definite answer, I would be curious to hear of your findings.

thanks for the assurance!

I'll try my best to thoroughly test it to 100% confirm!

^ I wasn't so sure if the growths can go below, and that's why I asked...

Since you're not 100%, more assurances from others might be necessary, provided my testing has yet to confirm or deny my thoughts as true at the time of the assurance.

^ One definite assurance. One with 100% certainty. That's all I need to calm my concerns...

edit: Test results confirmed, and you're right: growths rates don't go below the rate a character starts with/winds up with after reclassing, even if the dynamic growth rate is negative.

Proof: My level 9 marth with 7 resistance due to 1 level up in which the resistance did not increase... :)

edit 2: Never mind the above. Sure, in terms of status, the above test results are confirmed, but the final outcome is actually different than the one previously found. My apologies...

After some talk in pms, I discovered negative DGs impacting stat growths in a way that they CAN be below the stats characters had at their starting level/after reclassing. Note that I added some comments/alterations that are not in the original copy of the pm conversation that I'm disclosing below:

That lists an upper bound of 30 for Skill. Remember that it can be lower, so the true RN could be 0, while the growth is 20, in which case your results are still inconclusive. I happen to know that the lower bound for the 00:05 time is 50, which is what you really need. So, if you level Abel twice more using this time, you will find your answer.

Scenario 1 - Negative dynamic growths exist: he gains no Skl either time (15%) (20%).

Scenario 2 - Dynamic growths reset: he gains Skl the second time (50%) (55%).

After your reply, I restarted the chapter to put Abel back where he was before I leveled her up to level 8 on my previous attempt to test growths, then I re-leveled her to level 8, but I did so using a different time than before. The time I used that time is the time you mentioned.

The results?

Well, he didn't gain skill that time.

However, just before I decided to concede to what appeared to be the existence of negative dynamic growths, I found a new time, and decided to restart again, and test that new time. That time is:

9/28/2009 02:57 [45, ?, 15, 50, 20, 25, 10, 20]

levels 1-7 were the same as before, but this time, level 8 was reached using the new time I found:

prev level growth(# if -) result prev stat
1          50            +1       7
2          50(45 if -)   +1       8
3          50(40 if -)   +1       9
4          50(35 if -)   +1       10
5          50(30 if -)   +1       11
6          50(25 if -)   +1       12
7          50(20 if -)   +1       13
8          n/y           n/y      14

Next, I decided to test dark mage barst by using him to level up twice, with one of those times he leveled up resulting in a skill increase, then, while using the same time as the one I used in my most recent Abel test, which is the aforementioned 2:57 time), I leveled him three times more, as he has a default 45% growth rate in skill, to see whether the rn that will be generated results in a stat gain or not. If it gained for Barst on his first the second one of his first two level ups, as well as it did for my level 8 Abel upon arrival at lv. 8, that would prove my results inconclusive thought that neg. DGs don't exist as fact. But if it didn't gain for Barst but rather Abel, it would prove the rn rolled for skill is either ~49 or =50, which would virtually debunk prove true the negative DG theory.

Note: level 3-4 is not a result of clock abuse.

Results of barst test:

prev level growth(# if -) result prev stat
3          45             +1      6
4          45(41 if -)    +/-0    7
5          45->49(45 if -)+/-0    7
6          49->53(49 if -)+/-0    7
7          53->49(53 if -)+1      7
8          n/y            n/y     8

^ I figured that it would better to use the previous level instead of current level, because I read that DGs(dynamic growths) only influence the calculations on the next level-up, rather than the current level, meaning whatever DGs you see at the end of lv. 3(in the form of what stats increased and what stats stayed the same), or the DGs at the beginning of level 4, don't really kick in and show up on the rn comparison calculation until you level up again, which in this case, is the level up to lv. 5, also meaning the DGs at the beginning of level 7 don't show up on rng comparison until the level up to lv. 8. This is because DGs are added after the level-up screen goes away. What do you think now?

So, beware of dynamic growths, or else you'll never know if you will wind up with a unit that has 0 growth rates as a result of dynamic growths...

edit 3: In yet another test, this one to see how much the existence of neg DGs affects level-ups. According to the data for my lv. 12 marth's speed stat:

prev level growth(+/- #DG) result prev stat
1          50              +1       7
2          50(-5)          +1       8
3          50(-10)         +1       9
4          50(-15)         +1       10
5          50(-20)         +1       11
6          50(-25)         +1       12
7          50(-30)         +1       13
8          50(-35)         +1       14
9          50(-40)         +1       15
10         50(-45)         +1       16
11         50(-50)         +1(!)    17
12         50(n/y)         n/a      18        

^ Here I was, afraid of 0 growths... Now I'm not that afraid any longer: It may not be possible to see a 0 growth from DGs, but still, there's the possibility that neg DGs might make it take longer than if the DG is 0 to succeed in making a particular stat growth area's DG positive rather than negative or zero(to aid in gaining the only stat point that your units can gain by leveling up after reclassing to a class that normally has a starting growth rate of 0 in the stat which the point is gained, due to the DG reset), as well as either cap or near-cap that same stat, AND maintain that cap or near-cap after reclassing...

Edited August 1, 2010 by shadowjam

[GR8MasterGab96]

I have managed to get a pretty good time.

Ok let's see.

Cav!Cain's growth:75 35 0 50 50 40 20 0

Cav!Abel's growth:65 40 0 50 50 25 20 0

Lvl up, they gain hp, str spd luck def.

So, for now it' like this:

[65, 35, 0, ? 50, 25, 20, ?]

hope that helps.

The time is 27/8 2009 15:55.

EDIT, I think my game is fucked up, the 00:05 time on Frey gives only +5 and all the times posted here don't work. I tried the cleric Catria one on mage merric(it should at least give +3 but it gave me skl and luck. Can someone explain it to me?

Edited August 3, 2010 by Groner

[Jean-Marc]

I have managed to get a pretty good time.

Ok let's see.

Cav!Cain's growth:75 35 0 50 50 40 20 0

Cav!Abel's growth:65 40 0 50 50 25 20 0

Lvl up, they gain hp, str spd luck def.

So, for now it' like this:

[65, 35, 0, ? 50, 25, 20, ?]

hope that helps.

The time is 27/8 2009 15:55.

EDIT, I think my game is fucked up, the 00:05 time on Frey gives only +5 and all the times posted here don't work. I tried the cleric Catria one on mage merric(it should at least give +3 but it gave me skl and luck. Can someone explain it to me?

Are you using a DSi? It doesn't work the same way with a DSI. If not, have you put it to automatic? And for the Frey level up, you must defeat the ennemy in one hit.

[GR8MasterGab96]

Are you using a DSi? It doesn't work the same way with a DSI. If not, have you put it to automatic? And for the Frey level up, you must defeat the ennemy in one hit.

I am using a DSi but yes I normally kill the enemy in one hit.TELL ME HOW IT WORKS ON A DSI I COMMAND YOU!!

[shadowjam]

Are you using a DSi? It doesn't work the same way with a DSI. If not, have you put it to automatic? And for the Frey level up, you must defeat the ennemy in one hit.

I'm not Groner, but I can tell you that it works with a DSi, contrary to what you just said. But it doesn't automatically turn off when you get out of the settings screen, which is the only difference from clock abuse on DS/DS Lite to DSi, and since the trick doesn't work unless the power's turned off after the settings are changed, you'll have to manually do the power off. But there's a way to "fool" the game into thinking the power's off after a settings change, and do it successfully:

When the "Time Set" screen begins to scroll up, and the system tries to go back to the settings menu, but before the time screen has fully disappeared, I press, but not hold, the POWER button to go back to the DSi menu. Then, I control pad to the right quickly to select the game, then I quickly press A to start the game's boot sequence. Then I quickly press A to get past the title screen, and get to the game menu. Then I continue my game from there.

^ Outside of the aforementioned method above, I don't know if clock abuse will work on a DSi...

Edited August 3, 2010 by shadowjam

[GR8MasterGab96]

I'm not Groner, but I can tell you that it works with a DSi, contrary to what you just said. But it doesn't automatically turn off when you get out of the settings screen, which is the only difference from clock abuse on DS/DS Lite to DSi, and since the trick doesn't work unless the power's turned off after the settings are changed, you'll have to manually do the power off. But there's a way to "fool" the game into thinking the power's off after a settings change, and do it successfully:

When the "Time Set" screen begins to scroll up, and the system tries to go back to the settings menu, but before the time screen has fully disappeared, I press, but not hold, the POWER button to go back to the DSi menu. Then, I control pad to the right quickly to select the game, then I quickly press A to start the game's boot sequence. Then I quickly press A to get past the title screen, and get to the game menu. Then I continue my game from there.

^ Outside of the aforementioned method above, I don't know if clock abuse will work on a DSi...

WHAT!? This is the exact thing I do! I always end up with the fucked up game cart, damn...

[shadowjam]

WHAT!? This is the exact thing I do! I always end up with the fucked up game cart, damn...

Then are you using R4 or something similar that doesn't use the system clock?

Edited August 3, 2010 by shadowjam

[GR8MasterGab96]

Then are you using R4 or something similar that doesn't use the system clock?

No, but what's R4 anyway?

[shadowjam]

No, but what's R4 anyway?

It's a DS multipurpose game copier, or a device used to store and use/play a licensed developer's work-in-progress images, homebrew video games, or downloaded commercial games.

By the way, do you wait to execute any of the things I mentioned? Or did you do it too quickly? Maybe you need execute the steps to the process faster, or slower?

Edited August 3, 2010 by shadowjam

[Jean-Marc]

I found an Merric-friend +5 or +6(not sure)

27/8/2009 15:43 hp, mag, skill, spd, luck, def and/or res

WARNING!FOR THIS ONE TO WORK YOU MUST FINISH AN ENEMY WITH A DEATH QUOTE!!!!IT WONT WORK IF THERE IS NO DEATH QUOTE!!!

Depending on which class Merric was (I'm assuming Merric was Mage or Sage) The Growths for now are

Tried that time with Abel.

Here's the comparison:

HP ST MG SK SD LK DF RS

60 0 40 50 40 45 5 20 (if Mage)

60 0 30 50 45 45 5 30 (if Sage)

65 40 0 50 50 25 20 0

Abel only went up Skill. (maybe because of Dynamic Growths). This means HP went up because of dynamic growths. Strenght is just higher than 40, Speed is because of dynamic growths, I don't know about luck, maybe it's between 25-45, Defense probably didn't went up and I don't know about RES. So here's my current analysis about that time.

EDIT: I found another time! It's not completely great but it's worth trying!

01/01/2010 00:26 TC's way

HP:60

STR:20

MAG:??

SKL:40

SPD:40

LCK:30 (confirmed)

DEF:15 (confirmed)

RES:??

Here are the level ups that I tried:

Navarre: +HP +STR +SKL +SPD +LCK

Abel: +HP +STR +SKL +SPD +DEF

Draug: +HP +STR +SKL: +SPD +LCK +DEF

Cain: +HP +STR +SKL +SPD +LCK +DEF

I might find more precise numbers for that time soon.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Jean-Marc

[Meteor]

WARNING!FOR THIS ONE TO WORK YOU MUST FINISH AN ENEMY WITH A DEATH QUOTE!!!!IT WONT WORK IF THERE IS NO DEATH QUOTE!!!

Sorry, but that means it's almost worthless. This heavily reduces the number of times you can level up in a chapter, for one thing. And in many cases, it's ideal to be able to do 0 damage, then have a staff user level up. 0 damage = no kill = no death quote.

I found another time! It's not completely great but it's worth trying!

As of now, it's worse than the 8:11 time in every way. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you're duplicating work.

[Jean-Marc]

Sorry, but that means it's almost worthless. This heavily reduces the number of times you can level up in a chapter, for one thing. And in many cases, it's ideal to be able to do 0 damage, then have a staff user level up. 0 damage = no kill = no death quote.

As of now, it's worse than the 8:11 time in every way. I appreciate your enthusiasm, but you're duplicating work.

Okay, I'll try to find a better mage time then.

[GR8MasterGab96]

Edit about the death quote thing. I tried no death quote and the same lvl up happened. Weird...

My game is fucked up...

[Jean-Marc]

Edit about the death quote thing. I tried no death quote and the same lvl up happened. Weird...

My game is fucked up...

Dynamic Growths. I tried with base Merric and it didn't work well.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Jean-Marc

[GR8MasterGab96]

Dynamic Growths. I tried with base Merric and it didn't work well.

it was with base merric

[Jean-Marc]

Remember me saying that I'd find a better Mage level up? I found a good one:

12/21/2012 (Yeah Just for fun) 1:26

Base Merric +HP +MAG +SKL +SPD +DEF +RES

Meaning (for now):

HP: 60

STR: ??

MAG: 40

SKL: 50

SPD: 40

DEF: 05

RES: 20

At least this one is worth something.

[Meteor]

I'd be interested to see what Cleric Catria gets with that time. Merric is a pretty terrible unit for a clock abused team.

[LycopolisKing]

Just wondering, has anyone found a time for a perfect Marth upgrade in Shadow Dragon?

And if this can be used in New Mystery, I'm requesting a time for these growths...

35, 0 40, 40, 35, 75, 5, 40

If found, that will be my only instance of using this... _{I don't want to screw with the clock, so I'm content with using save points and simply praying for great natural upgrades, which is quite effective. :D}

So this only works with attacking? Hm, so say I had a Lena and an arena - I couldn't use the clock for her upgrades?

_{Note: The Maria in my sig was produced by watching and just plain getting blessed. ;)}

Edited August 20, 2010 by Sirius