FE9 Tier list v3

[Life]

Can Stefan rise? His boss-slaying abilities are hilarious. I can run numbers if anyone wants because the second half of the game is essentially "Ferry Stefan and Ike to boss".

If anyone wants me to put forth an actually argument regarding it, say so. And I will.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Kefka

[Anouleth]

Can Stefan rise? His boss-slaying abilities are hilarious. I can run numbers if anyone wants because the second half of the game is essentially "Ferry Stefan and Ike to boss".

I found that I never had so much trouble with a boss that I ever needed to ferry anyone to help. And I didn't have Jill, the premier flier in the game. At best, Stefan is killing a boss in 1 round where regular fliers or paladins would kill them in two rounds. But if that's the case, then rescue-dropping him is a waste of time since you spent more unit turns ferrying him than you saved by having him kill the boss.

[-Cynthia-]

The problem with that is that it's very easy to get Marcia/Jill/Tanith to similar offensive parameters as Stefan (and thus have similar bosskilling potential). Ferrying units is only a useful strategy if the unit in question can do the job better than the ferrier.

[Lord Raven]

I also find that wherever Stefan needs to be ferried, Ike replicates him almost exactly at that point in the game if you truly need a sword user to be doing it. In other words, he's actually not the best unit to do this with; his contributions aren't entirely unique.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

I also find that wherever Stefan needs to be ferried, Ike replicates him almost exactly at that point in the game if you truly need a sword user to be doing it. In other words, he's actually not the best unit to do this with; his contributions aren't entirely unique.

Actually, in cases where Ike needs to seize you'd much prefer another character to kill the boss. Ike can't kill the boss and seize in the same turn.

[Life]

Actually, in cases where Ike needs to seize you'd much prefer another character to kill the boss. Ike can't kill the boss and seize in the same turn.

Exactly. Take Chapter 21, for instance. At level 12, Laguzslayer!Stefan ORKOs Ena with a single critical hit at pretty reliable chances. Gamble may even make Stefan's case stronger.

[Lord Raven]

Getting Tauroneo into Resolve range and getting Marcia to Spear Ena (she only needs to do that twice + Laguzslayer on Tauroneo) is actually a suitable enough replacement. That's also virtually the only example anyway.

[aku chi]

Getting Tauroneo into Resolve range and getting Marcia to Spear Ena (she only needs to do that twice + Laguzslayer on Tauroneo) is actually a suitable enough replacement. That's also virtually the only example anyway.

Brainstorming:

If you didn't want to use a siege tome use and if you could get Stefan to survive, dropping him in C20 for a 2-turn clear could be of value (with the Vague Katti, Stefan is pretty much the only unit with a good chance of ORKOing Shiharam). It might be tricky to get Stefan to survive the rescue-drop, though.

Stefan can also 2-turn clear C19 at base. But then again, so can Tanith.

C23 is another boss that's tricky to ORKO (even Stefan needs to gain a couple points of Speed to double Petrine!). But Tanith or Marcia (if recruited and trained) have a good chance of being able to double Petrine and deal enough damage for her to be finished off by any other unit (including a siege tome user). Getting Stefan to Petrine seems like more work than it's worth.

That's about it for Stefan's boss-killing... I think Stefan is already very high for a 7-mov 1-range combat unit that joins halfway through the game, even if he is the best of that variety.

[Life]

Gamble says hi too. Gamble ensures a ORKO on Shiharam and Ena. I'd like to see if he can also do things against Gromall since Gromall in Resolve is nuts.

[Lord Raven]

Gromall is a joke, you don't need very much Magic and a Sonic Sword to ORKO him. Ike can take on Gromell easily with a Sonic Sword (something like a 2RKO, since Ike is likely to be some ridiculous level at this point), having that said.

If you didn't want to use a siege tome use and if you could get Stefan to survive, dropping him in C20 for a 2-turn clear could be of value (with the Vague Katti, Stefan is pretty much the only unit with a good chance of ORKOing Shiharam). It might be tricky to get Stefan to survive the rescue-drop, though.

How is this drop happening, exactly? Getting him to survive isn't the issue here, it's getting him to drop in the first place. I can't help but recall Marcia not being close enough in range after ~3 shoves/smites to rescue/drop someone.

Problem with Petrine is that she can get killed quite easily if ganged up on... hitting her twice with a Siege tome (read: Tormod, who can get into Petrine range in around 5 turns and has Reyson support to help him) and then attacking with Marcia/Kieran/Oscar is generally the idea with her. Stefan isn't necessary, and there's no way to efficiently ferry Stefan over since the Boots flier with Full Guard will want to carry Ike... therefore we need another flier carrying Stefan. It'll be a couple turns slower, that is for sure.

Chapter 19 early-clears aren't even worth discussing (especially if you are going for the Knight Ring). I'm sure even my balls can do it, and i'm fairly sure I have average sized balls.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Anouleth]

Gromall is a joke, you don't need very much Magic and a Sonic Sword to ORKO him.

The issue is more that you need 29 speed to ORKO him due to Resolve. That being said, it's so much better to kill him with fliers than with foot units. The only foot unit I'd go out of my way to use against him would probably be Calill or Lucia since they can ignore his Resolve and double him with effective weaponry (Lucia 3HKOes with the Sonic Sword and doubles, Calill can probably ORKO him with a Wind forge, Spirit Dust and supports).

Gamble says hi too. Gamble ensures a ORKO on Shiharam and Ena. I'd like to see if he can also do things against Gromall since Gromall in Resolve is nuts.

Shihiram can easily be killed with siege tomes and a flier. It's certainly much easier than trying to drop Stefan.

Moreover, as has already been pointed out, a Resolved Tauroneo will 2HKO Ena, so he can easily combo with a flier. Nor do I really understand how Gamble ensures a ORKO on Ena. While Stefan can probably reach about 100 crit between Gamble, the VK, and his natural critical rate, his hit rate will suffer. He only has about 45 display hit on Ena and that's not considering that Miracle will sometimes proc. You'd also have to remove Astra, which is probably more helpful. And even with 100% crit rate, Stefan only deals 6x2 damage at base. He'd need to reach level 14 in order to 6HKO. So you'd probably have to sink some BEXP into him as well.

(Gamble calculations: Ena has 50 avoid. Stefan has:

80 hit from weapon

54 hit from skill

5 hit from luck

=139 hit

-50 avoid

=89 hit

/2 from Gamble

=45 hit

Stefan's skill might be higher, but each point of skill is only another 1 hit, so even at max level he'd only have like 50 hit)

[aku chi]

Gamble says hi too. Gamble ensures a ORKO on Shiharam and Ena. I'd like to see if he can also do things against Gromall since Gromall in Resolve is nuts.

You know that part about Gamble cutting accuracy in half. That prevents any Gamble strategy from being 100%. Moreover, both the Laguzslayer and Vague Katti have middling Hit in the first place. Stefan will barely reach 100 Hit without Gamble. Besides, Stefan should keep Astra: it adds another 25-27% per round chance for crit-like damage. For instance, against Shiharam with the Vague Katti, base Stefan has 35 + 15 + 13 - 1 = 62% crit per hit. There is a ~90% chance that Stefan will proc either a crit or Astra against Shiharam. Those are pretty good odds, especially since our Sage or flier can finish off Shiharam the 10% of the time that Stefan comes up short. As for Stefan critting Ena with the Laguzslayer, I don't see that happening. Even with max Skill, Stefan has only 15 + 14 - 14 = 15% crit against Ena. With a 14% chance to proc Astra, we have a 53% chance to proc neither (at which point Ena uses an Elixer and we're sad).

How is this drop happening, exactly? Getting him to survive isn't the issue here, it's getting him to drop in the first place. I can't help but recall Marcia not being close enough in range after ~3 shoves/smites to rescue/drop someone.

Uh... Reyson. And surviving against the onslaught of Wyvern Riders is certainly an issue, though Vague Katti helps.

Stefan isn't necessary, and there's no way to efficiently ferry Stefan over since the Boots flier with Full Guard will want to carry Ike... therefore we need another flier carrying Stefan. It'll be a couple turns slower, that is for sure.

Here again you fail to consider any strategies other than your own. I guarantee that there exists a 4-turn clear of C23 that involves Stefan killing the boss. It probably features transformed Boots Reyson and lots of rescue-take-dropping. After all, I got 6-mov Soren to Petrine by turn 4 in a draft with no fliers. You are, of course, correct that Stefan isn't necessary. But as far as C23 goes, the only units that are necessary to a 4-turn clear are Ike and Reyson.

Chapter 19 early-clears aren't even worth discussing (especially if you are going for the Knight Ring). I'm sure even my balls can do it, and i'm fairly sure I have average sized balls.

Do your balls have 24 AS? Only two units in PoR have at least 24 AS at base. Stefan is one of them.

[Anouleth]

You know that part about Gamble cutting accuracy in half. That prevents any Gamble strategy from being 100%. Moreover, both the Laguzslayer and Vague Katti have middling Hit in the first place. Stefan will barely reach 100 Hit without Gamble. Besides, Stefan should keep Astra: it adds another 25-27% per round chance for crit-like damage. For instance, against Shiharam with the Vague Katti, base Stefan has 35 + 15 + 13 - 1 = 62% crit per hit. There is a ~90% chance that Stefan will proc either a crit or Astra against Shiharam. Those are pretty good odds, especially since our Sage or flier can finish off Shiharam the 10% of the time that Stefan comes up short.

If the Astra or criticalling are not important (Shihiram can be killed without them), then what exactly is the point of Stefan? It's not like Shihiram is a particularly fast boss. Jill and Marcia can certainly double him and deal better damage than Stefan could, and Tanith would only be slightly weaker. This is especially true when you consider that Stefan is only 5HKOing Shihiram with the Vague Katti. 2RKOing Shihiram is not particularly difficult.

It's funny how the flying units that are needed to put Stefan in position completely obsolete him. Jill + Tanith + Calill can kill Shihiram just fine. Or Marcia + Calill + Janaff. Or whatever.

As for Stefan critting Ena with the Laguzslayer, I don't see that happening. Even with max Skill, Stefan has only 15 + 14 - 14 = 15% crit against Ena. With a 14% chance to proc Astra, we have a 53% chance to proc neither (at which point Ena uses an Elixer and we're sad).

Astra wouldn't kill Ena anyway. If Stefan has 21 strength, he would deal 14 damage per hit, and with Astra would deal 49 out of Ena's 52HP.

Do your balls have 24 AS? Only two units in PoR have at least 24 AS at base. Stefan is one of them.

Yet many more units can be induced to have 24 AS quite easily. Nephenee needs to be about level 20/3 (with KW use). Astrid needs about level 20/4. Zihark needs 20/4.

And I'm sure that it's not very difficult to come up with a three turn strategy that kills Homasa in two rounds of combat instead of one.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

The issue is more that you need 29 speed to ORKO him due to Resolve. That being said, it's so much better to kill him with fliers than with foot units. The only foot unit I'd go out of my way to use against him would probably be Calill or Lucia since they can ignore his Resolve and double him with effective weaponry (Lucia 3HKOes with the Sonic Sword and doubles, Calill can probably ORKO him with a Wind forge, Spirit Dust and supports).

I actually didn't mean to say ORKO, I mistyped and meant 2RKO. My Ike had 9 Mag and had absolutely no problem with Gromall.

Uh... Reyson. And surviving against the onslaught of Wyvern Riders is certainly an issue, though Vague Katti helps.

My Shoves and Smites may have been on Reyson in fact so his movement wasn't completely outclassed for Marcia. And Marcia probably still couldn't land within one space of Shiharam; needless to say, this also means you have to half her speed and she has to survive a ton of riders with halve speed. Not going to happen.

Here again you fail to consider any strategies other than your own.

Nope, Stefan's just not that special that he deserves to have that as a point in his favor. I got a 5-turn and I know for a fact it would be slower if I were ferrying more than one unit, considering that the other units cannot fly over pitfalls and the enemies can be a little overwhelming in HM (for once) if you're rescuing someone. Edited November 21, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

If the Astra or criticalling are not important (Shihiram can be killed without them), then what exactly is the point of Stefan?

If you didn't want to use a siege tome use and if you could get Stefan to survive, dropping him in C20 for a 2-turn clear could be of value

Astra wouldn't kill Ena anyway. If Stefan has 21 strength, he would deal 14 damage per hit, and with Astra would deal 49 out of Ena's 52HP.

If Astra activates, Stefan has 6 opportunities to crit. Any such crit would result in Ena's demise.

Yet many more units can be induced to have 24 AS quite easily. Nephenee needs to be about level 20/3 (with KW use). Astrid needs about level 20/4. Zihark needs 20/4.

Granted.

My Shoves and Smites may have been on Reyson in fact so his movement wasn't completely outclassed for Marcia. And Marcia probably still couldn't land within one space of Shiharam; needless to say, this also means you have to half her speed and she has to survive a ton of riders with halve speed. Not going to happen.

Sigh.

Turn 1: [Mounted flier] rescues Stefan and moves east. Reyson vigors [mounted flier]. [mounted flier] moves east and drops Stefan 7 spaces away from Shiharam. [mounted flier] and Stefan attempt to survive enemy phase.

Turn 2: Stefan ORKOs Shiharam. [mounted flier] arrives.

Nope, Stefan's just not that special that he deserves to have that as a point in his favor. I got a 5-turn and I know for a fact it would be slower if I were ferrying more than one unit, considering that the other units cannot fly over pitfalls and the enemies can be a little overwhelming in HM (for once) if you're rescuing someone.

I could 4-turn C23 with Stefan being the only unit to attack Petrine. So you're (a) hindered by not using transformed Boots Reyson or (b) a poor tactician..

[Lord Raven]

k now good luck surviving the wyverns

transformed boots reyson has the downside of not being as efficient in other chapters as boots marcia (whichever chapter had Ena in it comes to mind as quite possibly the most major example of this). This "four mounted units with a ton of rescue drop utility" only works in theory and is only enough to save turns in a select few chapters, on top of how much of your experience is in normal mode and not hard mode which are pretty different.

Also, Astra has an absolutely pitiful chance of activation (skl/2). You're actually a lot better off using Wrath Ike. The chances of Astra activate, for reference, is ~24% if Stefan got two level ups between recruitment and Ena's chapter (also assuming perfect hit which I don't think is necessarily the case). Kind of a big if, but if you're going to hype Stefan with those chances, then you may as well hype any other unit because Wrath Ike has something like a 50% chance of a kill if Ena is weakened enough.

And Astra Stefan also has the potential to fight against Miracle, which once again every other unit does. And if you continue to hype Astra Stefan, then the OP and everyone on this forum should take your words with a grain of salt because you are going against a stance you used to assume against. Furthermore, ferrying Stefan over there costs far too many turns for it to be in his favor. 6 turns was mainly only possible because Marcia could be easily shoved and had 11 movement and ferrying Ike; Jill could not arrive there in time and frankly getting Jill there safely and awake is a solid burden of ~5 turns.

It's actually slightly retarded to not whittle Ena's HP down with Tauro/Marcia/Ike (even without Wrath on Ike) or whoever is ferrying Ike than getting Stefan over there. You can argue Boots Reyson all you want, but that does not get rid of the Sleep staff user. Nor is a Pure Water getting rid of Jill's pitiful resistance stat.

It's a shame, for a prepromoted unit with those offensive parameters, he really can't do anything unique by any stretch of the word due to his movement and weapon type.

By the time you get to Chapter 23, you will have plenty of units capable of taking on Petrine, which still reduces Stefan's unique factor to nothing. Stefan needs to grow two points of Speed too if he wants to double Petrine- so 4 levels, and at his leveling rate/the fact that he's unmounted, those 4 levels are iffy to get.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

If Astra activates, Stefan has 6 opportunities to crit. Any such crit would result in Ena's demise.

I'm 99.5% sure that you cannot crit on Astra in FE9 and FE10.

Also, is Ena not on a +def tile?

[Ether]

I'm 99.5% sure that you cannot crit on Astra in FE9 and FE10.

Also, is Ena not on a +def tile?

You can crit on Astra in FE9, just not FE10. And I am fairly sure Ena is on a throne, yes.

[aku chi]

I've been thinking about Bastian. I think he's more valuable than Lucia and Nasir.

The way I see it, Lucia has one okay chapter: 25. Lucia can help contribute to the C25 rout, especially if we forge her a Silver Sword. She's nothing special - poor Atk and terrible durability, but she can double and 2HKO the fastest enemies on the map. That's the extent of Lucia's helpfulness. She might as well not exist in chapters 26, 28, and Endgame. She might be able to help get some treasure in C27, but she does very poorly against the plentiful Generals in this chapter.

Nasir is just another shover in C28 (a good one, but that only counts for so much). He might try to contribute more substantially in Endgame, but the prospects of this are poor. If we have Nasir, we have an Ike who is trained enough to defeat the Black Knight, so the likelihood that Nasir + Ike could defeat Ashnard faster than Ike alone is slim.

Bastian, on the other hand, has a few chapters where he can be useful. Bastian can wield all three siege tomes off the bat, and so can use whichever leftover siege tomes remain. In C25, he can 2HKO just about every enemy with siege tomes at base. He can even double a few Warriors, Fighters, and a Halberdier. In C26, Bastian might able to land a siege attack on Bertram to help with the clear. In C27, Bastian can single-handedly clear away (ORKO) some of the chokepoint Generals that otherwise impede your progress (again, with siege tomes).

I think Bastian's potential contributions are more substantial than Lucia's or Nasir's. And while Bastian needs some siege tome uses to do anything meaningful, Lucia needs a Silver Sword forge and Nasir a Laguz Stone, so that doesn't seem so damning. Thoughts?

[Shadow Mir]

I've been thinking about Bastian. I think he's more valuable than Lucia and Nasir.

The way I see it, Lucia has one okay chapter: 25. Lucia can help contribute to the C25 rout, especially if we forge her a Silver Sword. She's nothing special - poor Atk and terrible durability, but she can double and 2HKO the fastest enemies on the map. That's the extent of Lucia's helpfulness. She might as well not exist in chapters 26, 28, and Endgame. She might be able to help get some treasure in C27, but she does very poorly against the plentiful Generals in this chapter.

Nasir is just another shover in C28 (a good one, but that only counts for so much). He might try to contribute more substantially in Endgame, but the prospects of this are poor. If we have Nasir, we have an Ike who is trained enough to defeat the Black Knight, so the likelihood that Nasir + Ike could defeat Ashnard faster than Ike alone is slim.

Bastian, on the other hand, has a few chapters where he can be useful. Bastian can wield all three siege tomes off the bat, and so can use whichever leftover siege tomes remain. In C25, he can 2HKO just about every enemy with siege tomes at base. He can even double a few Warriors, Fighters, and a Halberdier. In C26, Bastian might able to land a siege attack on Bertram to help with the clear. In C27, Bastian can single-handedly clear away (ORKO) some of the chokepoint Generals that otherwise impede your progress (again, with siege tomes).

I think Bastian's potential contributions are more substantial than Lucia's or Nasir's. And while Bastian needs some siege tome uses to do anything meaningful, Lucia needs a Silver Sword forge and Nasir a Laguz Stone, so that doesn't seem so damning. Thoughts?

I'd go a little further and push for Bastian > Rolf, because I don't see Rolf doing much of anything noteworthy.

[Lord Raven]

I'd go so far as putting Bastian above Rolf and cutting the tier off at him, making everyone Nasir and lower to be a Bottom tier unit.

Elincia should be bottom of Lower-Mid imo... I'm pretty sure a ton of people have argued just how good she is with the Rescue staff.

[-Cynthia-]

I've been thinking about Bastian. I think he's more valuable than Lucia and Nasir.

The way I see it, Lucia has one okay chapter: 25. Lucia can help contribute to the C25 rout, especially if we forge her a Silver Sword. She's nothing special - poor Atk and terrible durability, but she can double and 2HKO the fastest enemies on the map. That's the extent of Lucia's helpfulness. She might as well not exist in chapters 26, 28, and Endgame. She might be able to help get some treasure in C27, but she does very poorly against the plentiful Generals in this chapter.

Doubling and 2HKOing really isn't so bad, considering that's all some units in Upper Mid do- they just do it for longer.

Nasir is just another shover in C28 (a good one, but that only counts for so much). He might try to contribute more substantially in Endgame, but the prospects of this are poor. If we have Nasir, we have an Ike who is trained enough to defeat the Black Knight, so the likelihood that Nasir + Ike could defeat Ashnard faster than Ike alone is slim.

Maybe Nasir should move down? He does have good combat parameters, but low Mov+ transform time+ super low availability just makes his contributions kinda bad.

Bastian, on the other hand, has a few chapters where he can be useful. Bastian can wield all three siege tomes off the bat, and so can use whichever leftover siege tomes remain. In C25, he can 2HKO just about every enemy with siege tomes at base. He can even double a few Warriors, Fighters, and a Halberdier. In C26, Bastian might able to land a siege attack on Bertram to help with the clear. In C27, Bastian can single-handedly clear away (ORKO) some of the chokepoint Generals that otherwise impede your progress (again, with siege tomes).

I think Bastian's potential contributions are more substantial than Lucia's or Nasir's. And while Bastian needs some siege tome uses to do anything meaningful, Lucia needs a Silver Sword forge and Nasir a Laguz Stone, so that doesn't seem so damning. Thoughts?

Doesn't seem unreasonable. Bastian's previous position was based on using normal tomes, but he's not a terrible siege user so I could see him moving up a few spots.

[aku chi]

Doubling and 2HKOing really isn't so bad, considering that's all some units in Upper Mid do- they just do it for longer.

I meant that Lucia could double and 2HKO Swordmasters (and maybe Ravens). Lucia can also 2HKO Bishops, Sages, and Snipers (with a Silver Sword forge) - like everyone else. Even with a Silver Sword forge, Lucia usually fails to 2HKO Warriors and Halberdiers and has no chance to 2HKO beast laguz. Lucia also needs a Spd proc or two to double the fastest Swordmasters and laguz. Still, it might be worth more than what Nasir can do, sadly.

I'm not down with the Rolf hate. He needs a lot of Bexp, but he can develop a good offense post-promotion, especially against Wyverns. Considering that he can contribute in five rout chapters in addition to helping with secondary objectives in a dozen chapters, he may very well be underrated. Still, it's hard to rationalize a large Bexp dump for Rolf near his join time, considering the tough competition and his comparatively poor returns from Bexp. And Rolf is very nearly useless without Bexp. As you can see, I'm of two minds here.

[Lord Raven]

I'm not sure why covering Wyverns is such a big deal- at worst, they're a minor nuisance who are 3HKO'd. It doesn't help his case that Wyvern Lords aren't in particular abundance outside of a select couple throughout the game, either. It's not like Rolf has the ability to reach most of them.. I mean he can, but he's not doing anything unique when he gets there esp since Bows are 2x effective. Rolf is actually pretty bad.

[aku chi]

Rolf is actually pretty bad.

Of course he is; that's why he's in low tier. But is he so abysmal that he's less valuable than a mediocre unit with 1/4th his availability? Rolf is already three tiers lower than the worst units that share or better his availability.