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FE9 Tier list v3


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Brom > Devdan

Summary:

...[T]hese two units are almost worthless without some investment, so that's not the relevant comparison. Besides, Brom's better than nothing performance in chapters before Devdan joins is at least as valuable as whatever chip base Devdan can pull off. And when both are given ~900 Bexp before C17-1 (a realistic way to use them), Brom is the more valuable contributor. I think Brom > Devdan is quite clear.

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I see no mention of how Brom has a hard time just reaching enemies, much less gaining significant experience off them and helping the team by doing so (Note: Picking off enemies that are left behind in a non-rout map is worthless).

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I see no mention of how Brom has a hard time just reaching enemies, much less gaining significant experience off them and helping the team by doing so (Note: Picking off enemies that are left behind in a non-rout map is worthless).

[Devdan's 1 mov advantage is not] very important at all when both are going to be left behind in most maps. Devdan's biggest movement advantage is C25.

...[T]he most important part of a comparison: what these units can do. Devdan can contribute a little to the routs in C17-1, C18 (dealing with the Wyvern Riders), and C25. He might be able to contribute a little to secondary objectives in some other chapters. Brom can do the same thing as Devdan in C17-1 and C18. He can also help in the C13 rout. He can also help with secondary objectives in chapters 11 and 14 (when we have fewer units). Most importantly, Brom's "overkill durability" makes him a potential rescue-drop candidate in chapters 20 and 25. This is something Devdan cannot do with his mediocre durability. So, how is Devdan better again?

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It's not just 1 less move, they get the worst terrain costs and they're the hardest to Shove and Rescue. For Brom in particular, even if he can reach enemies, he can't double and doesn't usually do much damage.

Huh? Brom's speed is only barely behind Devdan's, even without KW usage, and his strength is far higher.

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@aku chi, I suppose that's what I get for only skimming, and while I'll let most of that slide, I don't think Brom is ever worth Rescue-dropping since, by that time, he won't have "overkill" durability.

Huh? Brom's speed is only barely behind Devdan's, even without KW usage, and his strength is far higher.

For one, I wasn't making a point about Devdan's combat being good or anything; I know it isn't good (though I have a feeling it's less costly to make him good than to make Brom good). For two...At even levels maybe, but what level do you actually think Brom will reach? I doubt people like hearing draft runs used as evidence for tier lists, but one of my runs ended without Brom even promoting by the end simply because he could never reach any enemies (see the log here if you feel like it). Granted I didn't have Devdan, but I'd rather use someone who can keep up with my other foot units for Shoving and possibly killing/distracting a few enemies that were missed than someone who twiddles his thumbs.

Lower them both if you have to, I don't really care specifically about Devdan vs Brom, I just can't see how Brom is two tiers above any single unit. If you want to disagree with that, attack my Shinon > Brom. What does Brom actually contribute in his entire existence that is worth more than Shinon's help in early maps?

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Huh? Brom's speed is only barely behind Devdan's, even without KW usage, and his strength is far higher.

I wouldn't call it 'barely'. Devdan's base SPD is 13. I won't claim it to be good, but we're not comparing it to Mia here, just Brom.

Brom's base SPD is a whopping... 7. A 7. He has a 25% growth rate. In order to tie Devdan's base SPD he has to get to roughly level 20/3 or 20/4 or so, Devdan's joining level. Devdan can end the game with 18-19 or so SPD if he's used without any items. Brom hits 17 only at 20/20. Since Devdan joined pre-promoted his chances of hitting endgame levels are MUCH higher than Brom's, especially if we factor in that Brom has lower movement. So it seems much more likely that Devdan will be going faster.

Also, Brom's STR lead isn't that big. At max level he has a 3-point lead on Devdan, but Devdan joins with 14 STR which is very solid and likely what Brom will have about that time if used. Sure, Brom can get +4 attack from his supports, but so can Devdan. Tormod won't mind supporting Devdan at all and neither would Nephenee.

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If Brom gets Knight Ward for every level, he matches Devdan at Lv.19 Tier 1. At this level, he'll also have one more strength than Devdan.

I don't know if Brom deserves 11 levels of BEXP'd Knight Ward levels though for his contributions, if he has any beyond Shove chaining and visiting houses. He might help out here and there on the boat maps, where routing the enemy is either the chapter goal or clears the map faster.

I'm with Red Fox here. I don't see what Brom's doing over Shinon. Shinon has a few maps where he's pretty sweet (Ch.7 comes to mind), whereas Brom's just... meh for his entire existence, even if his existence is longer than Shinon's.

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I don't think Brom is ever worth Rescue-dropping since, by that time, he won't have "overkill" durability.

If Brom has anything going for him, it's his physical durability. Brom has more concrete physical durability at 20/1 than many units have at 20/20 (including Marcia, Tanith, and - more relevantly - Devdan).

For one, I wasn't making a point about Devdan's combat being good or anything; I know it isn't good (though I have a feeling it's less costly to make him good than to make Brom good).

Read the argument I linked. Devdan needs about as much Bexp to double as Brom. But Devdan also needs the Bexp to 2HKO (which Brom accomplishes with relative ease). Truly, Brom needs to promote if he is to make any meaningful combat contributions after C13, but he is very solid if given the ~900 Bexp he needs to promote by C17-1.

I doubt people like hearing draft runs used as evidence for tier lists, but one of my runs ended without Brom even promoting by the end simply because he could never reach any enemies (see the log here if you feel like it).

You cannot prove a negative. If I drafted Marcia and never used her, that wouldn't imply that she was useless. My draft run here demonstrates how Brom can contribute in an efficiency playthrough. Brom was instrumental in a 2-turn clear of C20 and a 3-turn clear of C25 (and also helped some in the other routs).

Granted I didn't have Devdan, but I'd rather use someone who can keep up with my other foot units for Shoving and possibly killing/distracting a few enemies that were missed than someone who twiddles his thumbs.

* Brom can shove Reyson just as well as Devdan.

* When we clear chapters in 1-5 turns with mounted units, Devdan's +1 mov is insignificant.

Lower them both if you have to, I don't really care specifically about Devdan vs Brom, I just can't see how Brom is two tiers above any single unit.

There is only one unit with more availability lower than Brom: Rolf. The tier list already reflects that Brom is a relatively poor unit.

If you want to disagree with that, attack my Shinon > Brom. What does Brom actually contribute in his entire existence that is worth more than Shinon's help in early maps?

Sure, but let me start by suggesting that Shinon might deserve to move up a tier. His contributions (almost entirely in the early-game) are comparable with Largo and Tauroneo's, I judge. And on the other side, maybe a tier gap between Brom&Devdan and Janaff&Elincia isn't warranted, but neither, in my opinion, is a tier gap between Gatrie&Geoffrey and Brom&Devdan.

So, Shinon has some early-game contributions.

Chapter 3: This is probably Shinon's best chapter. Shinon is a crucial component of a unreliable but risk-free 2-3 turn clear. Shinon is also helpful, though not necessary, in a variety of 3-turn clears.

Chapter 4: Shinon can help Titania finish off the boss for a 2-turn clear. In other clears, Shinon can at least act as bait for this chapters numerous enemies.

Chapter 5: Shinon can tank some enemies to make it a little easier to funnel Cexp into your desired targets.

Chapter 7: Shinon is underwhelming here, but he can contribute to the rout and/or help get a treasure.

And Brom has some lesser contributions before Shinon returns:

Chapter 11: I've found Brom to be useful here as Vigilante bait; he can make it easy to acquire the Vigilante Bexp. Brom can also help get the Dracoshield (like many others).

Chapter 13: De facto rout. Brom can help with the rout, help open treasure chests, or plug the Defend square.

Chapter 14: In the smallest of contributions, Brom can light the way for a turn 1 attack or head west to get the Spirit Dust.

Chapter 17-1: Brom certainly struggles with the terrain, but he can expose himself to some enemies to help with the rout.

Chapter 17-2: If, for some reason, you gave a promoted Brom both Statue Frags, he can shove Boots Marcia to help with a 2-turn clear. There is another 2-turn clear that uses two male Paladins to ferry Mordecai instead.

Then Shinon returns. In most chapters, Brom and Shinon are similarly useless. They can shove Reyson or contribute in small ways to secondary objectives (getting treasures). Shinon has +1 mov, Brom has better combat. It's a wash. But there are a few chapters where Brom has notable leads (and none where the same can be said of Shinon):

Chapter 18: Brom is a better candidate to kill the Wyvern Riders in the south (he can do it on enemy phase and has better durability). If the turn 7 reinforcements become a factor, Brom is also better able to kill them.

Chapter 20: Brom can be a critical element in a rescue-drop 2-turn clear. Shinon can, at best, help visit for Savior.

Chapter 25: Brom is a potential rescue-drop candidate. His high durability and good offense (if properly leveled) can be very valuable if neither Jill nor Haar are trained. Shinon can help a little (and I mean little) in the rout, but nothing like what Brom can do.

We shouldn't neglect to mention that Shinon's earlygame contributions are costless whereas most of Brom's contributions beyond C14 require a sizable Bexp-dump. With said Bexp dump, though, Brom can make some very valuable contributions (especially in chapters 20 and 25) that exceed anything that Shinon can do. Brom > Shinon

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I wouldn't call it 'barely'. Devdan's base SPD is 13. I won't claim it to be good, but we're not comparing it to Mia here, just Brom.

Brom's base SPD is a whopping... 7. A 7. He has a 25% growth rate. In order to tie Devdan's base SPD he has to get to roughly level 20/3 or 20/4 or so, Devdan's joining level. Devdan can end the game with 18-19 or so SPD if he's used without any items. Brom hits 17 only at 20/20. Since Devdan joined pre-promoted his chances of hitting endgame levels are MUCH higher than Brom's, especially if we factor in that Brom has lower movement. So it seems much more likely that Devdan will be going faster.

You haven't refuted my point. Brom's speed is likely going to be just as good, or higher, thanks to greater potential with the KW.

Also, Brom's STR lead isn't that big. At max level he has a 3-point lead on Devdan, but Devdan joins with 14 STR which is very solid and likely what Brom will have about that time if used.

By that point, Brom can have +2ATK from supports and is about to promote. Devdan is playing catch-up, in other words.

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You haven't refuted my point. Brom's speed is likely going to be just as good, or higher, thanks to greater potential with the KW.

That's if you staple the KW to Brom, ensure he gets a lot of level-ups, AND don't give anything in return to Devdan. That's not exactly a fair comparison.

By that point, Brom can have +2ATK from supports and is about to promote. Devdan is playing catch-up, in other words.

If you gave Brom a lot of BEXP or are willing to seal him. Remember, chapter 17 has a lot of terrain Brom will suck with and 15 was a wash for him in every way possible. If we were playing easy mode I might agree with you about his promotion, but he's got several things against his EXP gain. Almost every unit has more movement than him making it hard for him to move, when he does reach a enemy he may not have the speed to double (so unless you're weakening and not killing them he will have problems), and he's wrecked by special terrain.

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Lower them both if you have to, I don't really care specifically about Devdan vs Brom, I just can't see how Brom is two tiers above any single unit. If you want to disagree with that, attack my Shinon > Brom. What does Brom actually contribute in his entire existence that is worth more than Shinon's help in early maps?

I would say it would be pretty easy to apply this for a number of units in PoR. What does Mia/Zihark/Stefan do that's worth more than Shinon's help in early maps? If we start turning this into a maximum efficiency list, they'd drop to Bottom tier too, by virtue of not doing anything due to being outclassed by mounts.

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If Brom has anything going for him, it's his physical durability. Brom has more concrete physical durability at 20/1 than many units have at 20/20 (including Marcia, Tanith, and - more relevantly - Devdan).

It's largely superfluous; most units with good combat make better rescue-drop candidates.

You cannot prove a negative. If I drafted Marcia and never used her, that wouldn't imply that she was useless.

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't just choose not to use Brom. He got so little experience because he was useless. I let him kill whenever possible, that opportunity just didn't arise often, and I didn't waste BEXP on him. I wouldn't care if he came with all his stats capped, he still wouldn't be able to reach anything.

* Brom can shove Reyson just as well as Devdan.

* When we clear chapters in 1-5 turns with mounted units, Devdan's +1 mov is insignificant.

5 turns is 5 more spaces, more if he gets to use Reyson himself. This can help directly on maps like 18 and 21, and help with those "secondary" objectives anywhere. It might be insignificant if Brom wasn't falling behind everyone.

There is only one unit with more availability lower than Brom: Rolf. The tier list already reflects that Brom is a relatively poor unit.

So are you saying Brom is only higher than units because of availability? Because I can see everyone in Low tier being better than Brom. Availability isn't worth much when you don't do anything with it.

Chapter 11: I've found Brom to be useful here as Vigilante bait; he can make it easy to acquire the Vigilante Bexp. Brom can also help get the Dracoshield (like many others).

Chapter 13: De facto rout. Brom can help with the rout, help open treasure chests, or plug the Defend square.

Chapter 14: In the smallest of contributions, Brom can light the way for a turn 1 attack or head west to get the Spirit Dust.

Chapter 17-1: Brom certainly struggles with the terrain, but he can expose himself to some enemies to help with the rout.

Chapter 17-2: If, for some reason, you gave a promoted Brom both Statue Frags, he can shove Boots Marcia to help with a 2-turn clear. There is another 2-turn clear that uses two male Paladins to ferry Mordecai instead.

11 may as well be useless. Those guys are so weak you can basically give anyone a Vulnerary to tank them, if you care in the first place. 13 and 14 can even be done by someone like Rolf. 17-1 has some merit due to enemies spawning everywhere. 17-2 is lol; a 2 turn clear is not that important.

Yeah, he exists. He can do stuff that you have to exist to do. If you all want to believe he's better than units below him for that then, well, I concede.

In response to the rest of it, I'd say Shinon is a better backup unit; I can't point out specific spots, but in general he's better at keeping up with your team and picking off problem (weaker) enemies. Someone misses a hit or something and Shinon is there, etc.

We shouldn't neglect to mention that Shinon's earlygame contributions are costless whereas most of Brom's contributions beyond C14 require a sizable Bexp-dump. With said Bexp dump, though, Brom can make some very valuable contributions (especially in chapters 20 and 25) that exceed anything that Shinon can do. Brom > Shinon

Only problem is that that BEXP is better put just about anywhere else. I can go with putting resources on for Brom vs Devdan since they both just need it, but Shinon's early stuff is without cost and largely irreplaceable; better than feeding Brom resources to be a useless unit.

I would say it would be pretty easy to apply this for a number of units in PoR. What does Mia/Zihark/Stefan do that's worth more than Shinon's help in early maps? If we start turning this into a maximum efficiency list, they'd drop to Bottom tier too, by virtue of not doing anything due to being outclassed by mounts.

You generally need some kind of support aside from the mounted units, and non-armor foot units are the choice for that. My argument here isn't that Brom's contributions are weak (although that is definitely a point against him), it's that they largely do not exist.

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It's largely superfluous; most units with good combat make better rescue-drop candidates.

I can count the better rescue-drop candidates on two fingers: Boyd and Nephenee. And even Boyd can have trouble enduring the rescue-drops in chapters 20 and 25 that I mentioned. And neither Boyd nor Nephenee comes ready-made for rescue-dropping; they need training and Bexp like Brom (Boyd a little less so). Besides, we must credit units for what they can accomplish, even if other units can make the same contributions. Otherwise, Geoffrey would be worthless.

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't just choose not to use Brom. He got so little experience because he was useless. I let him kill whenever possible, that opportunity just didn't arise often, and I didn't waste BEXP on him. I wouldn't care if he came with all his stats capped, he still wouldn't be able to reach anything.

Your draft run demonstrates that FE9 can be completed efficiently without using Brom. The same can be said for Makalov, Nephenee, and many other units. My draft run demonstrates that Brom can be used in meaningful ways to complete the game efficiently.

5 turns is 5 more spaces, more if he gets to use Reyson himself. This can help directly on maps like 18 and 21, and help with those "secondary" objectives anywhere. It might be insignificant if Brom wasn't falling behind everyone.

There are 10 good to superb 9-mov combat units available come C18. It is fantasy to suppose that Devdan is not also falling behind some subset of these units in every chapter (except perhaps C25). The number of secondary objectives that Devdan can reach by turn X that Brom cannot is vanishingly small. To suggest that Devdan is a part of the front line in C18 - the most linear rout chapter in the game - is ridiculous. And if Devdan is making it to C21's throne room, it is on the wings of one of our fliers, same as Brom.

So are you saying Brom is only higher than units because of availability? Because I can see everyone in Low tier being better than Brom. Availability isn't worth much when you don't do anything with it.

I said exactly what I intended to say. Aside from Rolf, Brom has an availability advantage over every unit tiered below him. There are chapters where Brom can contribute and these other units cannot. So I wouldn't be surprised if certain units in low tier are more valuable than Brom in their shared availability (Elincia is obvious).

Only problem is that that BEXP is better put just about anywhere else. ...better than feeding Brom resources to be a useless unit.

Nonsense. Mounted units are obviously better Bexp candidates than Brom. And maybe we want to raise Mist and/or a Sage, so that's some more Bexp. But, as you go on to point out: "You generally need some kind of support aside from the mounted units". I suggest Brom as that non-mounted support unit. Sure, Boyd and Nephenee are clearly better, and the Swordmasters have some advantages as well (and some disadvantages), but Brom can contribute to routs and via flier rescue-drops. Seemingly, you have a personal distaste for armors, but unless you can demonstrate that Brom cannot make contributions akin to the other non-mounted combat units, you cannot argue for Brom alone to move down the tier list.

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Your draft run demonstrates that FE9 can be completed efficiently without using Brom. The same can be said for Makalov, Nephenee, and many other units. My draft run demonstrates that Brom can be used in meaningful ways to complete the game efficiently.

My draft run demonstrates that Brom can't contribute to an efficient clear at all, or in only extremely minimal ways, even when one tries to use him.

If you can't get anywhere, you can't do anything. I really don't think you realize the gravity of Brom's problem here.

There are 10 good to superb 9-mov combat units available come C18. It is fantasy to suppose that Devdan is not also falling behind some subset of these units in every chapter (except perhaps C25). The number of secondary objectives that Devdan can reach by turn X that Brom cannot is vanishingly small. To suggest that Devdan is a part of the front line in C18 - the most linear rout chapter in the game - is ridiculous. And if Devdan is making it to C21's throne room, it is on the wings of one of our fliers, same as Brom.

I never assumed Devdan, or any other 7-move unit, was a part of the front line, but even aside from the front line, you can't just act like Move doesn't matter.

I said exactly what I intended to say. Aside from Rolf, Brom has an availability advantage over every unit tiered below him. There are chapters where Brom can contribute and these other units cannot. So I wouldn't be surprised if certain units in low tier are more valuable than Brom in their shared availability (Elincia is obvious).

In order to continue this, I really need to know how much availability is being valued. I'm pretty sure this tier list adopted the standard of free deployment at the very least, so I understand that being there > not. But if it's enough to get Brom a tier over units like Janaff (auto transform, flight, fairly consistent doubling and decent combat with just an Energy Drop), Ranulf (high move, reasonable bases), and even Tauroneo if just for Tauroneo's starting position on that horrible map he joins in, Rolf seriously needs to go up. He sucks, but with similar investment, he can be a decent support unit and can do all the secondary things Brom can do (chests, villages, etc.) but better. How the hell are Bastian, Ulki, Largo, and Elincia better than that? I'm definitely not saying Rolf > Brom, but two tiers is too much under the logic being used.

And of course, Shinon needs to go up, but that seemed fairly agreed on, correct?

Nonsense. Mounted units are obviously better Bexp candidates than Brom. And maybe we want to raise Mist and/or a Sage, so that's some more Bexp. But, as you go on to point out: "You generally need some kind of support aside from the mounted units". I suggest Brom as that non-mounted support unit. Sure, Boyd and Nephenee are clearly better, and the Swordmasters have some advantages as well (and some disadvantages), but Brom can contribute to routs and via flier rescue-drops. Seemingly, you have a personal distaste for armors, but unless you can demonstrate that Brom cannot make contributions akin to the other non-mounted combat units, you cannot argue for Brom alone to move down the tier list.

It's not something so simple to be proven just by talking about it. Interceptor's run from a year or two back that helped us create a lot of the standards in the tier list had similar use (or non-use) of the armors as my draft run I already linked. I remember him saying they probably wouldn't promote until, like, Ch 23. I do have a distaste for most armors, but it's because their hindrances are really problematic, not a personal vendetta.

Point being, if there's ever a place where "Personal Experience Means Everything," it's probably somewhere like this. You don't really see how problematic - or not problematic - the move issue is until you see it for yourself.

Personally, I find Brom next to useless. He can't reach anything on his own and his combat doesn't get good fast enough to be worth the investment. But if that mediocrity for as long as it exists is what's keeping him up, I guess things could be worse.

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My draft run demonstrates that Brom can't contribute to an efficient clear at all, or in only extremely minimal ways, even when one tries to use him.

That you personally did not use Brom in a draft run is insufficient to demonstrate that Brom cannot make any contributions. I don't know how I can explain this any better.

I never assumed Devdan, or any other 7-move unit, was a part of the front line, but even aside from the front line, you can't just act like Move doesn't matter.

Tell me where it matters. Tell me what Devdan, with his 7 mov, can do that Brom, with his 6 mov, cannot do in an efficient playthrough. I will grant C25, because Brom's mov is terrible there. Thankfully, he happens to be a much better rescue/drop candidate than Devdan (if well trained), so he is more valuable in C25. C17-1 sounds like it might be a potential win for Devdan, because Brom might be additionally slowed down by mud. Anything else?

In order to continue this, I really need to know how much availability is being valued. I'm pretty sure this tier list adopted the standard of free deployment at the very least, so I understand that being there > not.

If the goal of the tier list is to rank how much units can contribute to efficient playthroughs, and deployment of the unit being tiered is costless, then availability matters insomuch as the tiered unit can contribute in those chapters of availability. When we're considering the lower tiers, even small contributions like Brom helping us get Vigilante Bexp in C11 can be significant because the units in the lower tiers have generally smallish contributions.

Janaff (auto transform, flight, fairly consistent doubling and decent combat with just an Energy Drop)

Only ORKOing Sages (and the occasional Myrmidon) at 1 range is not what I would call "decent combat" in this game.

... Rolf seriously needs to go up. He sucks, but with similar investment, he can be a decent support unit and can do all the secondary things Brom can do (chests, villages, etc.) but better. How the hell are Bastian, Ulki, Largo, and Elincia better than that? I'm definitely not saying Rolf > Brom, but two tiers is too much under the logic being used.

Rolf does need to go up. I don't know how far, but Bastian > Rolf is silly. But Brom > Rolf is pretty obvious. Rolf is not as competent at getting secondary objectives because he has no enemy phase combat and poor durability. Rolf needs considerably more Bexp to promote than Brom. And Rolf is not a rescue-drop candidate like Brom is (something you continue to ignore).

And of course, Shinon needs to go up, but that seemed fairly agreed on, correct?

I believe that it would be possible to draft a compelling Shinon > Tauroneo and/or Shinon > Largo argument. (Ranulf should probably remain above that trio.)

I remember [intercepter] saying [armors] probably wouldn't promote until, like, Ch 23.

Units promote whenever we give them enough Bexp to promote. I believe that efficient playthroughs seek to promote (nearly) every unit before C17-1. Brom is no exception. I previously reasoned that Brom would need ~900 Bexp to promote in C17's base. That's a lot, but no more than Marcia, Jill, Makalov, Nephenee, Soren, and Ilyana (and less than Tormod and Rolf).

If you can't get anywhere, you can't do anything. I really don't think you realize the gravity of Brom's problem here.
Point being, if there's ever a place where "Personal Experience Means Everything," it's probably somewhere like this. You don't really see how problematic -or not problematic - the move issue is until you see it for yourself.

What part of "I meaningfully used Brom in an efficiency draft run" did you fail to understand?

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That you personally did not use Brom in a draft run is insufficient to demonstrate that Brom cannot make any contributions. I don't know how I can explain this any better.

I used Brom, he just couldn't do anything. I don't know how I can explain this any better. If a unit has 0 Move, are you going to say I didn't use him just because I didn't have him fight enemies?

But Brom > Rolf is pretty obvious. Rolf is not as competent at getting secondary objectives because he has no enemy phase combat and poor durability. Rolf needs considerably more Bexp to promote than Brom. And Rolf is not a rescue-drop candidate like Brom is (something you continue to ignore).

Uh, did you miss: I'm definitely not saying Rolf > Brom?

I haven't ignored Brom being a rescue-drop candidate. I have more than once pointed out that I don't think it's worth much.

Units promote whenever we give them enough Bexp to promote. I believe that efficient playthroughs seek to promote (nearly) every unit before C17-1. Brom is no exception. I previously reasoned that Brom would need ~900 Bexp to promote in C17's base. That's a lot, but no more than Marcia, Jill, Makalov, Nephenee, Soren, and Ilyana (and less than Tormod and Rolf).

There's no arbitrary chapter where everyone gets promoted. If Marcia is promoted at 15 and Brom at 25, that's the way of things. I'm only going to feed Brom BEXP so much as it is good for me to, which, as far as I'm concerned, is quite little.

What part of "I meaningfully used Brom in an efficiency draft run" did you fail to understand?

What part of "Brom failed to be able to contribute to my efficiency draft run" did you fail to understand?

At this point we're getting nowhere just using our runs against each other.

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What part of "Brom failed to be able to contribute to my efficiency draft run" did you fail to understand?

At this point we're getting nowhere just using our runs against each other.

I believe you are commiting a form of argumentum ad ignorantiam. You are falsely concluding: "Brom cannot contribute" from "Brom did not contribute".

Let me try another analogy. Suppose that, starting in C16, an additional Paladin, Paladin1, would be able to make a host of contributions throughout the rest of the playthrough. Further suppose (for simplicity) that a second additional Paladin, Paladin2, would provide zero marginal benefit. Either Astrid or Makalov could be Paladin1. Now suppose, in this playthrough, I gave Astrid a Bexp-dump and used her as Paladin1. Makalov, in this run, wouldn't make any contributions. It would not be accurate to claim: "Makalov failed to be able to contribute". He didn't contribute, but he would have been able to contribute if I had given him the Bexp dump instead of Astrid. By similar logic, you cannot claim that "Brom failed to be able to contribute" to your playthrough. He didn't contribute. But if you had allocated resources differently, or used different strategies, Brom might have been able to contribute in an equally efficient version of your playthrough.

Your run demonstrates that it is possible to complete the game efficiently without using Brom. Well, it's possible to complete the game efficiently without using Jill. These facts are irrelevant to the tier list. The tier list, so far as I understand it, measures potential contributions to an efficient playthrough. My draft run demonstrates that Brom can make substantial contributions to an efficient playthrough. Those are relevant.

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I disagree with your assertion of argumentum ad ignorantiam. If Brom needs 3 turns to be able to do something but I'm clearing the map in 2 turns, he's worthless and there's nothing I can do about it (except prolonging the map, but I'm obviously not doing that). That is the logic I'm working under. Not "Brom sucks because I haven't seen him be good." That would be argumentum ad ignorantiam.

But anyway, I'll let this one go. I still don't like all the attention Brom needs to "contribute" and think he could stand to go down a tier (with Devdan if need be), but even if it's just for availability, I guess most of the units currently below him can't really do much more.

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Criteria of a tier list:

1. A character is useful if they help us cut turns.

Brom can potentially help us cut turns in 17-2 with Boots Marcia and 2 Statue Frags. As long as Brom enables us to cut turns, he should get credit for it. It doesn't matter if it's "pure LTC" or not, that's just in your head. Does it help us cut turns? Yes, so give him points for it.

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Like what?

I would call my own logged playthroughs efficient. I don't care right now to trawl this board and find other playlogs to hold up as examples of what I would call efficient, but there are many others (p. sure Interceptor and Narga both have logs, but they'll be quite far back).

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Well, concerning C17-2, the 2-turn clears are really restrictive. Of course, units that can contribute to those clears should get credit, but so should units that contribute to the less restrictive 3-turn clears. Jill, for instance, cannot replicate Marcia's role in C17-2's 2-turn clears, but I think it's obvious that she is the second most valuable unit in C17-2, because she can single-handedly clear the chapter in 3 turns (which only Marcia and Jill can boast - Lethe needs some shoves/smites, I believe). If this tier list only cared about the most optimal playthroughs, Mordecai would be the second most valuable unit in C17-2 due to his role in the 2-turn clears (how Jill would even be tiered in such a list is a mystery to me).

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