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FE9 Tier list v3


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In my game Tormod and Soren both promoted in ch17, lots of exp there. Tormod because he could, and Soren because kicking out ilyana and Mia tripled his spoonfeed amount. Mist was 20/6 by that time, girl really started to tear things apart once she got a horse (favoritism there though) while Oscar was playing cards with Titania in the back.

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but clearly, in jushiro's tightly constrained world, there are no strategies that exist where tormod's celerity confers any advantage

If, in the most strict possible LTC playthrough, Tormod's Celerity does nothing significant at all, then I think you can extrapolate the fact that Tormod's Celerity is going to be useless in efficient playthroughs as well, which are much less strict.

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Look at it logically as well. Tormod is a sage. As a sage he has fairly iffy defenses. As a result of said meh-ish defenses we do not want him to end his turn on the front lines. Other units with low defenses tend to have some form of counter (good skills or high evade), or some service they can offer without exposing themselves (chanting) to make up for this. Tormod does not.

I'm not saying that his higher move is not an advantage, keep in mind, I'm just saying that, if your sages are likely only going to be moving 6 or so squares per turn, having 8 isn't THAT big an edge.

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If, in the most strict possible LTC playthrough, Tormod's Celerity does nothing significant at all, then I think you can extrapolate the fact that Tormod's Celerity is going to be useless in efficient playthroughs as well, which are much less strict.

That is not true. If, for instance, a non-Tormod Sage requires a smite from a rescue/take/dropped Mordecai in an optimal clear, Tormod could accomplish the same task without the need to ferry Mordecai. An optimal run might require two male Paladins, but a less strict, still efficient run could have Tormod contribute equally even when two male Paladins have not been trained and deployed. That's an advantage in this tier list even if it isn't an advantage in an optimal run.

(I still think Soren is better more valuable than Tormod, however. His early contributions (most substantial in C15) outweigh Tormod's advantages in C16 and beyond.)

Edited by aku chi
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Um no it doesn't

If, in the most strict possible LTC playthrough, Tormod's Celerity does nothing significant at all, then I think you can extrapolate the fact that Tormod's Celerity is going to be useless in efficient playthroughs as well, which are much less strict.

You can't apply this blanket statement to everything because it's not always true
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I think it's perfectly possible to conceive of strategies that are just as easy to pull off without Tormod. The only chapters that need siege tomes in a normal efficiency play through are 20, 21, 22, 25 and 27. And I think the only chapter in which Celerity is an advantage would be 25, which can be easily made up for by Smiters who aren't doing anything else anyway. Smite isn't needed for Soren/Ilyana in any chapters but 25 anyway. On 27 I'm not sure if even Tormod can reach the boss without assistance, I usually just have a mounted unit carry Soren/Ilyana to make up for that move. I think maybe Celerity should get a tiny bit of credit, but he isn't better than Soren or Ilyana or Calill.

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If, in the most strict possible LTC playthrough, Tormod's Celerity does nothing significant at all, then I think you can extrapolate the fact that Tormod's Celerity is going to be useless in efficient playthroughs as well, which are much less strict.

okay, so more than half of the cast is on an identical level because their marginal utility is exactly zero: anything that they can do can be supplanted with an alternate strategy using characters that amount to an equal turncount. good luck with that tier list.

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okay, so more than half of the cast is on an identical level because their marginal utility is exactly zero: anything that they can do can be supplanted with an alternate strategy using characters that amount to an equal turncount. good luck with that tier list.

No, I'm just saying that Tormod's Celerity isn't really useful. I don't know why you're bringing up something that's completely irrelevant.

We shouldn't give a character points just for having a skill. We should give them points if it's actually useful.. in Tormod's case, it isn't. It doesn't help at all, other than to not get a few Smites that never mattered anyway.

Edited by Aeine
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^ Yes but its SOMETHING. You yourself said Brom should get some sort of credit for being able to shove Marcia if he gets 2 statue frags. Well, Tomord should get some sort of credit for celerity.

The way I see it is this. Tormod has potential for better performance over the other Sages but he requires a significantly larger amount of resourses to do so. I would order them: Soren > Tormod > Callil > Illyana. But their performance is so close and so similar that they are all basically the same in my eyes.

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^ Yes but its SOMETHING. You yourself said Brom should get some sort of credit for being able to shove Marcia if he gets 2 statue frags. Well, Tomord should get some sort of credit for celerity.

The way I see it is this. Tormod has potential for better performance over the other Sages but he requires a significantly larger amount of resourses to do so. I would order them: Soren > Tormod > Callil > Illyana. But their performance is so close and so similar that they are all basically the same in my eyes.

Okay, a little bit of credit then. It isn't a necessity, but I guess it makes some strategies simpler.

How is Soren > Tormod > Ilyana? Why are Soren and Ilyana so different? I'd say Soren = Ilyana > Tormod. Ilyana makes up for those inferior stats with better supports.

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I'm not even sure Ilyana's stats are really inferior. Attacking RES is a big edge and, while she suffers lower speed, I doubt Soren is suddenly doubling when she isn't. Earlier join time, sure. Better stats? Ehhhh... Especially considering Ilyana can actually hold a tome for a while without AS loss (forged, granted), I'm not so sure.

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Okay, a little bit of credit then. It isn't a necessity, but I guess it makes some strategies simpler.

How is Soren > Tormod > Ilyana? Why are Soren and Ilyana so different? I'd say Soren = Ilyana > Tormod. Ilyana makes up for those inferior stats with better supports.

Ilyana is slower than the other sages which makes her offense significantly worse. At say, 20/4, Soren has 18 Spd, Tormod had 18 Spd, base Calill has 18 Spd, Ilyana has 16 Spd. PoR enemies aren't exactly speed demons, but she'll miss more ORKOs than her fellow sages (in this example 13-14 AS enemies).

It's easy to make up the Str difference by forging Soren a thunder tome (Calill and Tormod tend to be equal or stronger than Ilyana anyway) and it's easier to make a forge than to make Ilyana faster. She also loses in Mag to all of them at the levels presented, so she doesn't seem to win until supports come into play- and the other sages don't have terrible supports either.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Illyana uses siege tomes more reliably with her supports, but Soren beats her in everywhere else.

As far as supports improving siege tome reliability goes, Tormod and Callil both have supports that increase their hit so Illyana doesnt really have anything on them.

But like I said, They as so close to eachother the might as well all be the same. They are interchangeable.

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Illyana uses siege tomes more reliably with her supports, but Soren beats her in everywhere else.

As far as supports improving siege tome reliability goes, Tormod and Callil both have supports that increase their hit so Illyana doesnt really have anything on them.

But like I said, They as so close to eachother the might as well all be the same. They are interchangeable.

Soren has a Heaven affinity support for hit as well.

They're close but there are some differences. Tormod has Celerity, only Soren and Ilyana can help in C15, Soren and Ilyana can potentially have the best staff rank, only Calill can likely use all 3 siege tome varieties and is the cheapest in terms of resources.

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I don't think Ilyana's speed matters too much. Your mounts are likely to be getting the vast majority of the kills anyway and it's always risky to have your mages in the front lines. I think the main function of a Sage in an efficiency play through is just to use siege tomes, which Ilyana does best.

Btw Sorens supports are almost useless.

Edited by Aeine
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Stefan's heaven affinity gives Soren just as much hit as any of the other sages supports give.

Granted, I wasnt even considering it since Stefan isnt recruited often. However the Tier list assumes things like this.

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I think the main function of a Sage in an efficiency play through is just to use siege tomes, which Ilyana does best.

*snort of derision

Soren has more Mag.

Tormod has Celerity.

Calill and Bastian have better weapon ranks.

Tormod and Calill have better siege tome AS.

How is Ilyana the best at using siege tomes? Accuracy? Maybe Ilyana is a little above average in the Hit department, but Soren has better Hit without supports, a possible Heaven support, and additional reliability from Adept. Tormod has almost as much Hit with plenty of +Hit support options. Calill has +Hit supports and the weapon ranks to use all of the siege tomes (she can use Blizzard for extra Hit, unlike Ilyana). Even Bastian has very good base Hit and a swift Volke support for more Hit on top.

Edited by aku chi
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And if youre using 2 siege tome users, Tormod and Callil actually support with each other. And their other supports are better than Illyana's support options.

Illyana just really doesnt have anything unique over the other sages.

Edited by Hawk King
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Ilyana is a lot more likely to get supports in general, so in most playthroughs her hit would be better.

Secondly Ilyana has only 2 less hit than Soren at level 5 promoted.

Adept? Really? Weren't you the one complaining about how little uses siege tomes have? Even one use could be game changing.

Tormod x Calill takes 6 chapters to pull off. That means you won't be able to use siege tomes before that as well as Ilyana can. All things considered, Ilyana is the most reliable.

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Ilyana is slower than the other sages which makes her offense significantly worse. At say, 20/4, Soren has 18 Spd, Tormod had 18 Spd, base Calill has 18 Spd, Ilyana has 16 Spd. PoR enemies aren't exactly speed demons, but she'll miss more ORKOs than her fellow sages (in this example 13-14 AS enemies).

It's easy to make up the Str difference by forging Soren a thunder tome (Calill and Tormod tend to be equal or stronger than Ilyana anyway) and it's easier to make a forge than to make Ilyana faster. She also loses in Mag to all of them at the levels presented, so she doesn't seem to win until supports come into play- and the other sages don't have terrible supports either.

Why should they all be compared at the same level when they have different join times? Tormod will not be at 20/4 at the same time as the other sages. I highly doubt he'll even be promoted by the time Soren hits that point if they're all given the same amount of attention. I'll be conservative and say they grow at a rate of 1 level per chapter they're in, and assume they're deployed every chapter. Both Soren and Ilyana (I will not count her join chapter because she joins when it's half over) will be at level 13 in this scenario when Tormod joins. They both beat him or tie in almost everything. I think the level leads could be even bigger, because when I use Soren and Ilyana, Soren promotes at around chapter 15, and Ilyana in 17. I'm guessing that's on the other extreme though lol. They also have an advantage in support levels. Ike is available from chapter 1. Mia joins in chapter 7. Mordecai joins in 10. Tormod's supports build pretty fast, but his earliest support will start building in 17 (Devdan), meaning it'll be available in 18, I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I could have sworn that Tormod could support with Muarim lol. Anyways, at chapter 18, their fastest supports provide Soren with +1 offense and +15 avoid, Ilyana with +2 offense, +3 defense, and +15 accuracy, and Tormod with +1 offense and +5 hit. Tormod loses for quite a while. Does celerity really make up for all of that? If they're compared at the same level, then yeah, Ilyana is clearly inferior. Her statistical inferiority doesn't start to become apparent until near the end of the game if you give them all the same resources, though. Calill will be more on par with Soren and Ilyana as soon as she joins but the lack of staves really hurts her utility. I also think it'll hurt her exp gain since she will not have access to 'free' exp from staff usage.

So yeah, that's my reasoning for why I think it should be Soren>Ilyana>Tormod>Calill>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lulbastian

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Calill x Nephenee A support takes 5 chapters, and Tormod x Reyson A support takes 5 chapters. And Calill x Tormod B support takes 4.

Reyson is being used 99% of the time and Nephenee is better than Mia by alot.

Like I said though, their advantages over eachother are so minor that they are all interchangeable. It really comes down to a matter of preference if you ask me.

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Adept? Really? Weren't you the one complaining about how little uses siege tomes have? Even one use could be game changing.

My point with Adept was that it adds to Soren's reliability. If Soren has 25% Skill and 80% true hit, he actually has an 85% chance to hit at least once. That's something to consider. It's a fall-back that will rarely come into play, because Soren's Hit with siege tomes is pretty darn good.

But if we want to talk about wasting siege tomes, we shouldn't neglect that it is easiest for Soren and hardest for Ilyana to get the Mag to 2HKO Schaeffer (saving a Bolting or Meteor use over the 3HKO approach).

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Calill x Nephenee A support takes 5 chapters, and Tormod x Reyson A support takes 5 chapters. And Calill x Tormod B support takes 4.

Reyson is being used 99% of the time and Nephenee is better than Mia by alot.

Like I said though, their advantages over eachother are so minor that they are all interchangeable. It really comes down to a matter of preference if you ask me.

Oh yeah, I wasn't thinking about how likely it would be that their fastest support option would be deployed. So many different variables to consider...

My point with Adept was that it adds to Soren's reliability. If Soren has 25% Skill and 80% true hit, he actually has an 85% chance to hit at least once. That's something to consider. It's a fall-back that will rarely come into play, because Soren's Hit with siege tomes is pretty darn good.

But if we want to talk about wasting siege tomes, we shouldn't neglect that it is easiest for Soren and hardest for Ilyana to get the Mag to 2HKO Schaeffer (saving a Bolting or Meteor use over the 3HKO approach).

Again, shouldn't availability be taken into account? On average Ilyana would have to be 20/5 to reach the 2hko threshold if she is given both spirit dusts (is it safe to assume that the sages get priority when it comes to those?) and Tormod would have to be 20/4 with both spirit dusts. Ilyana has 12 full chapters to get from level 6 to 20/5. Tormod has 5 full chapters to go from 7 to 20/4.18 levels over 12 chapters (150 exp per chapter) is much easier to do than 16 levels over 5 chapters (320 exp per chapter).

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The Chp 15 pacifism Bexp and the 10 turns of training in Chp 17-3 should make it quite easy for any of the 3 mages to reach the necessary LV in time to use our siege tomes. Soren and Illyana will need less Bexp than Tormod though.

And remember, the mage band increases MAG growth by 10%

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On average Ilyana would have to be 20/5 to reach the 2hko threshold if she is given both spirit dusts (is it safe to assume that the sages get priority when it comes to those?)

The C22 Spirit Dust cannot have been used on a Sage by C22. So Ilyana would need to be ~level 20/9 or ~level 20/6 with Mage Band use. Soren, meanwhile, need only be ~level 20/4 or ~level 20/1 with Mage Band use.

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