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FE9 Tier list v3


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I'm not sure Soren's Heaven support can be counted on. First off it only exists when Stefan is played. If Stefan is not played for any reason he will lose out on all his hit. Secondly it won't be hitting a B-level until around chapter 24-25 even if it is in play. At that point Ilyana will have almost all her B's and maybe even an A or two.

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Can we really count on Mia/Zihark, two rather mediocre units, being in play either?

Yeah in other game Tormod would be much lower, but the plethora of BEXP we have make him easy to train. He is more expensive than Soren/Ilyana though (both of whom are more expensive than Calill). I suppose the question then becomes is the Celerity worth the cost?

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The Chp 15 pacifism Bexp and the 10 turns of training in Chp 17-3 should make it quite easy for any of the 3 mages to reach the necessary LV in time to use our siege tomes. Soren and Illyana will need less Bexp than Tormod though.

And remember, the mage band increases MAG growth by 10%

Ah, I see. I never knew people actually did the chapter 15 pacifism lol, it seems impossible to do it in a reasonable amount of time and get all of the treasures.

I don't think I've ever used the mage band on a mage before lol. Ya, I'm a noob. xP

The C22 Spirit Dust cannot have been used on a Sage by C22. So Ilyana would need to be ~level 20/9 or ~level 20/6 with Mage Band use. Soren, meanwhile, need only be ~level 20/4 or ~level 20/1 with Mage Band use.

Well, not by 22, but it can be used during 22. That'd probably waste a lot of time though, so I can see why people wouldn't want to use it during chapter 22. I'm not saying that Ilyana is better than Soren, not by a long shot xP

I DO think she's better off than Tormod though.

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Ah, I see. I never knew people actually did the chapter 15 pacifism lol, it seems impossible to do it in a reasonable amount of time and get all of the treasures.

Actually, the longer one waits, the more difficult the C15 pacifist clear gets. There are a variety of 2-turn, 3-turn, and 4-turn clear strategies that get some->most of the treasures and retain pacifism Bexp. See here for more detail.

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Other than the already mentioned Mia and Zihark, Gatrie isn't terribly likely to be in play and Lucia both isn't very good and shows up rather late. She can probably always get B Mordecai but that's only 5 Hit.

The point isn't that Ilyana can't have supports, but that her supports aren't super likely compared to her competition. Calill gets decent units in Tormod/Nephenee (and can switch to siege tomes with more hit). Tormod gets Calill, Devdan is ehh but Reyson is very frequently in play (and he can use Meteor which has more hit). Soren is a bit shakier, but Adept does improve his hit rates indirectly.

So in addition to the Mag difference possibly being relevant (2HKOing vs. 3HKOing), Ilyana's hit advantage only seems relevant if we give her supports and give none to the other sages- which doesn't seem to encompass most playthroughs.

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First off, it doesn't matter how well Ilyana's supports stack up against Calill's supports as I was comparing her supports to SOREN'S supports. So unless Soren got a gender change and traveled back in time with 'her' husband Ike/'Largo' it simply doesn't matter. Even if Ilyana's supports are inferior to Soren's in terms of the amount of hit they give, she would still 'win' since her redundancy in having multiple possible supporters trumps Soren's dependance on only one for hit.

Also, Adept is unreliable at best. You have a low chance of him doubling with the tome. I don't think it's a high-enough chance to be considered a significant edge under any circumstance.

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Ah, I see. I never knew people actually did the chapter 15 pacifism lol, it seems impossible to do it in a reasonable amount of time and get all of the treasures.

Done it on normal within 7 turns got all treasures not killed anyone. Here is the general strategy

chp15.png

Jill takes the hits for sothe and lethe, marcia distracts tigers and later kills the boss with ike's help i believe. If ravens have the choice they do not attack Lethe cause she has the claws, so she mercilessly just walked to Stefan. Was funny.

Edited by ncknck
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Look at it logically as well. Tormod is a sage. As a sage he has fairly iffy defenses. As a result of said meh-ish defenses we do not want him to end his turn on the front lines. Other units with low defenses tend to have some form of counter (good skills or high evade), or some service they can offer without exposing themselves (chanting) to make up for this. Tormod does not.

I'm not saying that his higher move is not an advantage, keep in mind, I'm just saying that, if your sages are likely only going to be moving 6 or so squares per turn, having 8 isn't THAT big an edge.

Thats some strange logic. Tormod operates as part of the group and unlike other mages, celerity allows him to do that. Defense is of no matter cause he never ends the turn endangered anyway, other units will protect him. In fact if he is the primary target he can be exploited as bait, other mages are slow for these tricks. Im actually happy if they even see combat. To pull that off, i had to aggressively push Soren forward so he can reach his target before its destroyed, so Soren actually ended up being more endangered simply because Tormod has the safety of striking from behind the front line.

I think iLyana's biggest disadvantage is that she competes with Soren for spoonfed cexp, and being similar units, there can only be one.. and Soren most likely has Ike's defensive support.

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Ah, I see. I never knew people actually did the chapter 15 pacifism lol, it seems impossible to do it in a reasonable amount of time and get all of the treasures.

Some of the treasures in the map aren't very useful and can be skipped. The only really important one is the Boots.

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Thats some strange logic. Tormod operates as part of the group and unlike other mages, celerity allows him to do that. Defense is of no matter cause he never ends the turn endangered anyway, other units will protect him. In fact if he is the primary target he can be exploited as bait, other mages are slow for these tricks. Im actually happy if they even see combat. To pull that off, i had to aggressively push Soren forward so he can reach his target before its destroyed, so Soren actually ended up being more endangered simply because Tormod has the safety of striking from behind the front line.

So by your logic, because Soren had less move, he was more likely to end up in front of the group and exposed than Tormod, because Tormod had more move?

I think iLyana's biggest disadvantage is that she competes with Soren for spoonfed cexp, and being similar units, there can only be one.. and Soren most likely has Ike's defensive support.

I usually use both Ilyana and Soren without problems.

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1) Why is Oscar > Kieran?

Oscar and Kieran have very similar combat in their shared availability (Kieran has an Atk lead, Oscar has a durability lead), but Oscar has 8 additional chapters of availability (where he is quite valuable).

2) Why are Oscar + Kieran > Boyd?

+2 mov, canto, rescuing, better AS (mostly due to the Knight Ward), better durability (Oscar especially), and sufficient Atk to 2HKO most enemies. Boyd has a sizable Atk advantage, but it's mostly overkill (although Boyd's 1-2 range combat with a Hand Axe forge is unmatched).

3) Why is Zihark > Mia?

*shrug

They're very similar. Mia has a few chapters of availability. Zihark has slightly better Atk and durability in their shared availability. I could probably be convinced either way here.

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Actually, the longer one waits, the more difficult the C15 pacifist clear gets. There are a variety of 2-turn, 3-turn, and 4-turn clear strategies that get some->most of the treasures and retain pacifism Bexp. See here for more detail.

Done it on normal within 7 turns got all treasures not killed anyone. Here is the general strategy

chp15.png

Jill takes the hits for sothe and lethe, marcia distracts tigers and later kills the boss with ike's help i believe. If ravens have the choice they do not attack Lethe cause she has the claws, so she mercilessly just walked to Stefan. Was funny.

Thanks to the both of you! That's amazing! I need to try those strategies sometime.

Thats some strange logic. Tormod operates as part of the group and unlike other mages, celerity allows him to do that. Defense is of no matter cause he never ends the turn endangered anyway, other units will protect him. In fact if he is the primary target he can be exploited as bait, other mages are slow for these tricks. Im actually happy if they even see combat. To pull that off, i had to aggressively push Soren forward so he can reach his target before its destroyed, so Soren actually ended up being more endangered simply because Tormod has the safety of striking from behind the front line.

I think iLyana's biggest disadvantage is that she competes with Soren for spoonfed cexp, and being similar units, there can only be one.. and Soren most likely has Ike's defensive support.

If he needs other units to protect him, doesn't that make him a liability on the front lines? tbh I think Calill has the edge on all of the other mages in terms of combat. She doesn't need any exp invested in her because she comes in at a reasonable level with bases that are just about on par with the mages would have if they got to her level, and she has instant access to all siege tomes. I'm mostly hearing about siege tomes so idk if sages are valued for their healing ability, so the knives may not be as big a detriment as I first thought it would be.

Are there any points at which siege tomes would help with efficiency/ltc before Calill exists? What do you guys consider to be the benefit of using mages aside from siege tomes? From my understanding of what's being said here, only Tormod can keep up with the rest of the group to even kill anything, so what I viewed as their biggest selling point (res targeting and eventual ability to use staves) seems to be overshadowed. I personally have no problem getting my non celerity mages cexp, but maybe I'm moving too slow to be considered efficient if that's happening.

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Are there any points at which siege tomes would help with efficiency/ltc before Calill exists?

A more relevant question is: do we expect to have any siege tomes before Calill is recruited? There is a Bolting treasure in C16, but it's far away such that the chapter can generally be cleared 2 turns earlier than you would have been able to reach the treasure. It's possible, but perhaps unlikely, that we'll get that Bolting in an efficient playthrough. Siege tomes are awesome, so we wouldn't have difficulty finding uses for Bolting in C17, C18, and C19. Bolting could help kill the northern Halberdier in C17-1 (who is tough to ORKO with a 1-2 range weapon). I'm not sure if a Sage can reach Oliver with Bolting in C17-4, but he has high resistance and so is a poor target anyway. Siege tomes can help with the C18 rout by damaging distant Ravens across the wall. In 2 or 3-turn clears of C19, a siege tome user could help kill Homasa and/or Ballistae operators.

What do you guys consider to be the benefit of using mages aside from siege tomes?

Contributing to routs where high movement or high durability aren't needed, and staff use. Also, Soren and Ilyana can make a significant contribution in C15 - due to their mage movement and effective fire damage.

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Oscar and Kieran have very similar combat in their shared availability (Kieran has an Atk lead, Oscar has a durability lead), but Oscar has 8 additional chapters of availability (where he is quite valuable).

+2 mov, canto, rescuing, better AS (mostly due to the Knight Ward), better durability (Oscar especially), and sufficient Atk to 2HKO most enemies. Boyd has a sizable Atk advantage, but it's mostly overkill (although Boyd's 1-2 range combat with a Hand Axe forge is unmatched).

*shrug

They're very similar. Mia has a few chapters of availability. Zihark has slightly better Atk and durability in their shared availability. I could probably be convinced either way here.

Ok thanks a bunch aku chi!

Here I go: Boyd > Kieran (and maybe even Oscar) and deserves to be in the top tier.

Boyd has 8 additional chapters of availability and in each one he is useful enough to warrant a place on your team for Chapters 1 and 2 (I think he can double in 2). Also in Chapter 2, the majority of enemies are axe users and Boyd and Ike are more useful than Oscar in this fight.

Also Boyd has an advantage in Chapter 5 due to the high amount of lance users and in Chapter 6 he and Titania can go on opposite sides to deal with the knights (you can also let him get the poleaxe, my reasoning to let him have it as that Titania is strong as it is and poleaxe would be overkill with her).

In Chapter 7, Ike is restricted by movement (to recruit Mia) and Oscar still has not enough Str and so Boyd and Titania are left to deal with the knights, if we do a comparison of Body and Oscar at this point they should be at the same level (as initially Boyd was one level below, but his advantage against lances in Chapter 5 helps him out here) and if we say they both gained 1 in Ch2, 2 in Ch3, 2 in Ch5 for Oscar and 3 in Ch5 for Boyd, 2 in Ch6 then we have:

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 9 35.35 11.2 7.5 9.15 6.45 6.75 1.75

Oscar 9 29.3 8.7 9 9.7 6.8 10.1 1.8

So, as you can see against the knight which will have like 10 Def, Boyd is going to be much more useful (with Axes, +3 more Str than Oscar) so he incontrovertibly also possess an advantage in this map too along with Titania.

Now in Chapter 8, he can use the Poleaxe (which Titania does not need because she is strong enough) and go for the cavaliers below or knights to the right, but either way Boyd is incredibly useful this chapter as he and Titania are the sole axe users and there are loads of lance users this level so they should be split up proportionally.

He doesn't possess any really useful advantages in Chapter 9 (Oscar actually beats him in this as movement is quite significant this chapter) but in 10 if you are going via the stealth route, you'll want to defeat the boss and again he can do this, along with maybe Soren/Titania. Therefore I have established his use for Ch7 to 10, and his axes are really good, he will be 1 Weapon Level higher than Kieran this means. (We have not even counted BEXP bonuses). So, now in Ch11 (he would have at least a 1 level lead ahead of Oscar). In terms of levels, if we assume Boyd gained 2 in Ch7, 2 in Ch8, 1 in Ch9 and 1 in Ch10 (in total 6) and Oscar gained 1 in Ch7, 1 in Ch8, 2 in Ch9 and 1 in Ch10 (in total 5). Then, if we compare Kieran to Boyd and Oscar:

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 15 39.75 14.8 10.5 11.85 8.55 8 3

Oscar 14 32.05 10.95 11.5 11.95 8.3 11.85 3.3

Kieran 12 30 11 10 12 8 10 1

So Boyd's got a 3 Level lead from Kieran (and we haven't counted any BEXP spent from Chap 7 onwards), he also has at least 3.8 Str more than Kieran. But he's also got a B in Axes whereas Kieran does not. Boyd also has an HP lead of 9.75 ahead of Kieran and 2 Res lead but Kieran has a 2 Def lead and Kieran has an AS advantage over both Boyd and Oscar AT THE MOMENT.

If we do the calcs, based off the character's best weapons at the time against a generic Lance Knight (so nobody has a disadvantage) with 29 HP, 7 AS 8 Def:

Boyd - Steel Axe: 25.8 Atk, 11.65 AS (11.85 - (15 - 14.8)), 32.25 Avo

Oscar - Steel Lance: 20.95 Atk, 9.9 AS (11.95 - (13 Wt - 10.95 Str)), 28.1 Avo

Kieran - Steel Axe: 22 Atk, 8 AS (12 - (15 - 11)), 24 Avo

Now only Boyd is 2HKOing this Lance Knight, the others don't have enough AS to double due to massive weapon weight penalties (also observe how even if they did double Oscar and Kieran will not kill this lance knight whereas Boyd will). Boyd's offense clearly far surpasses Oscar and Kieran at the moment as Kieran has a massive AS penalty associated with any axe other than an Iron Axe and same with Oscar, which restricts their offensive capabilities immensely. So far, only Boyd can handle a steel weapon with no substantial loss in speed (and even that small 0.2 disappears after one more level up). Also, even doubling with an Iron Axe or even a Steel Axe, Kieran would not be able to kill this unit because he has substantially lower Str (the 3.8 Str lead in doubling can really be beneficial to Boyd and give him up to a 7.6 lead in offense over Kieran enough to kill what Kieran could not), Oscar just would not be able to 2HKO any of these cavaliers even if he doubled.

In terms of avoid though, Oscar will have an Earth support with Ike right now or actually Kieran at some point but this won't happen for another 2 chapters. Anyways at the moment Boyd is combat-wise the best out of the 3 in terms of getting the job done - their durability being pretty much even as far as HP and Def are concerned (I think the 9 HP lead by Boyd is really the same as a 2 Def lead by Kieran) and Boyd/Oscar being the best to deal with mages.

However, Oscar and Kieran due to their movement are much more useful granted for Ch11, BUT they will only be able to take advantage of this at the end with the boss, because the enemies are much closer together at the start (especially those Cavaliers in that middle house on the left. Boyd will have ample time to catch up with them AND do some more combat fighting (with Short Axe even as he will have no penalties) BUT granted the boss fight goes to Oscar/Kieran, thus let's say Boyd, Oscar and Kieran draw for this chapter (with Boyd doing slightly better with his offensive and AS capabilities) and gain the same level ups (1 each I think is enough)

And Ch12, Boyd is the better as he no longer suffers from any speed penalties while Oscar and Kieran still do and so can do a lot of damage against the crows without any worries of getting doubled. Oscar and Kieran higher movement does nothing here because movement is restricted anyway (you're waiting for the crows to get on to the boat). Let's give Boyd 2 Lvls and Oscar and Kieran 1 each.

Ch13 is another example of Ch10 where Oscar and Kieran sure can go straight ahead while Boyd probably takes 1 more turn to get to the action, but seriously it's a question of one turn as when the units get to the combat, movement become irrelevant for the rest of the chapter (as the enemies keep coming TO you), not to mention Boyd and Kieran have an Axe lead over Oscar against the Halbrediers and no real sword problems coming from either side. Combat-wise Boyd will still be the better of Oscar/Kieran as Oscar will be at around 11.85 Str at Level 16 and still have 11.6AS with Steel (so 12.85 - 1.15 = 11.6AS) and 12.85 AS with Iron while Kieran has either 9.8 AS (Steel) or 12.8 AS (Iron) at level 14. Boyd will be Level 18 at this point and have 13.2 AS (no speed penalty), he's doing the best combat-wise again (I don't even need to talk about the offense because he has 16.6 Str vs. Kieran's 12 Str so now 4.6 more). But I'll give Oscar/Kieran the fact that they got there first and also they've got their Earth Support, so all of them get 2 Levels each.

Oh now wait, that means Boyd can now promote while Oscar is still 2 Levels behind and Kieran is 4 Levels behind. I will prioritise giving Boyd the Master Seal at Lvl20 because he will (let's face it) be the first one to get there (with Oscar coming in shortly after), so you might as well give it to him. Oscar and Kieran do well this map because it's one of the only maps where the enemies are spread out and so high movement is extremely useful, in other maps the enemies were gathered together in a few places which Boyd could easily reach and then contribute too. In this chapter, Oscar/Kieran can both use their movement to make a real difference. So Oscar and Kieran can gain 2 levels each here, Boyd gains 1 (because he is a promoted unit now so the movement gap reduces and he can reach places now faster than Ike).

Ch15 - And now we come to the dreaded desert map where Oscar (even if he is promoted) and Kieran will not be contributing. Boyd however, has 7 movement now and so can move 3 spaces on the desert sand and so can actually be quite useful (but this chapter is dominated by Soren/Ily, Marcia and Jill). Not to mention that the laguz give more experience so let's say Boyd gains 2 more levels and Oscar and Kieran 0.

Ch16 - Oscar is immensely useful, however the gap between Kieran and Boyd is non-existent. Let's do a stat-check:

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 20/4 48.25 21.6 16.5 16.45 11.35 12.25 7.25

Oscar 20/1 38.35 15.65 16.5 16.65 10.1 15.95 8.1

Kieran 18 33.6 14 13 14.4 9.5 12.4 2.8

Kieran still has 1AS speed penalty for using a Steel Axe so you are unable to play with him effectively again. Durability-wise too he is lower than both Boyd and Oscar, Boyd having 15 more HP than him and Oscar having over 3 Def more than him, both actually having at least 5 Res over him too. Even with the Knight Ward (which has to be given to someone mind you, I can't just let it be given to both Oscar and Kieran and add it to their stats) so +2 that 15 HP lead Boyd has is substantial.

Offense-wise Boyd is the best, Oscar is behind him and in Kieran's case he's last. So, it's up to you waiting for one more turn for Boyd to get there and getting the job done or waiting one more turn in any case for Kieran to finish off the enemy. Personally waiting for Boyd for one more turn is best option as that durability comes into play which Kieran doesn't have. But Kieran does still have the movement in this chapter where enemies are spread out, but because of Boyd's consistent battling reliability: Oscar gains 2 levels, Kieran gains 2 Levels (with feeding him some kills and being a lower level unit) and he gets his promotion and Boyd gains 1 Level.

Ch17 - All of the chapters have mud/swamp or whatever it is and so Kieran/Oscar's additional movement won't help here, they're fighting on equal movement as far as I'm concerned with Boyd and thus Boyd's superior combat prowess (axes over Oscar and stats, AS, Str, durability over Kieran) again helps out here. Boyd's superior combat prowess helps with the Wyvern Knights/Cavaliers in Part 2 (the really swampy bit) and the mages in Part 3 (OHKOing them actually but even if he gets hit he'll be fine whereas Kieran wouldn't, movement irrelevant here), and again with the knights and cavaliers, Boyd is the best here but yes Oscar and Kieran's superior movement helps but only till the swamp where Boyd will catch up, again no real benefit to higher move here. I see them all gaining the same levels here, 3 Levels each I reckon so (Boyd at 20/8, Oscar at 20/6, Kieran at 20/3)

Ch18 - Yes, fine, movement here DEFINITELY helps because the enemies are spread out immensely. 1 Level to Oscar + Kieran BUT 1 Level to Boyd because he can stay behind and attack the reinforcements.

Ch19 - Movement NOT IMPORTANT here. You want to avoid the crows attack range for the Knight's Ring, and so especially in that case Kieran and Oscar must NOT rush out and start killing the enemies. So, again they have no advantage here. All get 1 Level.

Ch20 - LOTS of Wyverns here, and so Boyd and also Kieran have a distinct advantage here over Oscar, movement NOT really important here as the top wyverns can be got to by Boyd (or the bottom enemies even) either way Boyd is still contributing in a really useful way. Quick stat check:

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 20/10 52.75 25.2 19.5 19.15 13.45 13.75 8.75

Oscar 20/8 42.2 18.8 20 19.8 12.2 18.4 10.2

Kieran 20/3 39 18 17 18 10.5 16 7

Even with Knight Ward, Boyd still > Kieran in stats, Boyd's 13.75 HP vs Kieran's 4.25 Def and 0.25 Res lead means Boyd = Kieran in durability, Oscar narrowly beats Boyd though with more Def + Res with a +10 HP difference from Boyd, I'll give durability to Oscar though. Boyd, however, has a lead in AS by 1.15 (which can be substantial) and 7.2 lead in Atk so Boyd definitely >>>> Kieran in offense, same with Oscar really 7.2 Atk (not counting the A in Axes bit as Silver Axe > Silver Lance anyway and even if you did give Oscar Axes they wouldn't be up to A yet) vs 0.65 (not enough by my reckoning to go against Axes and 7.2 Str lead).

In Avoid, Boyd has 51.75 Avo without supports, Oscar has 51.8 Avo without supports, Kieran has 46.5 without supports. If we say Kieran A Oscar and B Marcia (so 22.5 + 5 = 27.5 to Avoid and 1 to Atk) and if we say Boyd B Mist and B Brom (not an A yet with either because enough time has not passed) then Boyd has +4 Atk, +2 Def and if we say that Oscar has A Kieran (Ike has other higher priority people to support and Oscar has not built a high enough support rapport with anyone else to support them like Tanith), then he has +22.5 Avo.

So with their best weapons so far:

Boyd w/Silver Axe, 45.2 Atk, 19.15 AS, 51.75 Avo and 52.75 HP, 15.75 Def, 10.75 Res (Atk/Def support added)

Oscar w/Silver Lance, 33.8 Atk, 19.8 AS, 78.3 Avo and 42.2 HP, 18.4 Def, 10.2 Res (Avo support added)

Kieran w/Silver Axe, 33 Atk, 74.5 Avo, 18 AS and 39 HP, 18 Def, 9 Res (KW, Atk/Avo support added).

So, Boyd has the best offense incontrovertibly (all of his supports bar Titania are Ice and so he gets a substantial boost to Atk) and he can double just as well as Oscar and Kieran, so basically Boyd can take down ANYTHING Oscar and Kieran will have trouble with. Durability too now with the Ice supports give a nice boost to his defenses and now I think Boyd is effectively the best one to take down Mages (having high HP to soak up big hits too) and his higher HP makes up for the even smaller margin in Def now. Also yeah the supports give Kieran and Oscar the Avoid bonus but still I think Boyd beats them in 2 areas while Kieran beats him none except Avoid which I think does not really matter as Boyd has good avoid anyway and so I don't think it's a massive problem.

Chapter goes to Boyd definitely due to his high offense against high def Wyverns, he is definitely capable of 2HKOing them whereas Oscar and Kieran not so much. 2 Levels to Boyd, 1 to both Pallys

Ch21 - goes to Oscar/Kieran another map where yes movement is good, but would not discount Boyd from anything at the moment as he can deal lots of damage to Ena and also at the junction Oscar and Kieran would have to go right way (to keep the support bonus) straight up to Kasatai which leaves the other way completely open Titania and Boyd are good for this (you can keep Mist too to support Titania and Boyd) and by the time they come out the other side Boyd and Oscar/Kieran will be in the same place so there is no real battle in this particular chapter between Oscar/Kieran and Boyd as they will have to go different ways and end up at the same point from then on, yes Oscar/Kieran can reach the boss easily after this but in HM Boyd is the only one capable of defeating her in the most efficient way with Laguz Axe, Oscar and Kieran would take another turn anyway...so it doesn't really matter which way you do it. I'll give each 1 level.

Ch22 - movement does not matter in this priest chapter. To convey efficiency, the party should be split into 3 groups,each going for one side and then staying there to keep the reinforcements busy, movement is not useful therefore because everyone can reach the enemies to the right and left easily and not to mention Boyd can Shove/Smite (his Smite next to Mordes/Muarim is really good) and can be really useful this chapter. Tbh Oscar/Kieran are not good this chapter because the priests need to be shoved about which they can't do and they actually can get in the way (though we must assume no incompetence from the players so this is irrelevant), still their move advantage is not important in this chapter whereas Boyd's utility is.

Also Boyd is really good to have against the beast laguz in this chapter capable of OHKO them (esp cats) with Laguz Axe and supports, something which Oscar and Kieran might be able to do but Boyd does it much better without much threat of counter (because of the OHKO), therefore being probs the only unit capable of this he should be there, he is definitely the most secure character to send there. Boyd gets 2, Oscar/Kieran 1 level each. Also Boyd can survive a crit from the boss, same can definitely not be said of Oscar and Kieran (an example of where that 11HP lead helps).

Ch23 - pallys are good this chapter granted because they can manoeuvre around. I'll give them this chapter, but Boyd can still do some damage and they're at a high enough level where more exp is hard to come by. 1 Level to both, 0 Levels to Boyd.

Ch24 - arriving so again pallys are best. Also they can manoeuvre around the trees but so can Boyd tbh and they lose more Mov because of this anyway but still they can go around top much more effectively than Boyd but Boyd definitely gets the forest path way which he can get through without substantial move cost. They get 1 level both, Boyd can get those reinforcements, that tiny bit of utility here warrants another level up. 1 Level to Boyd, 1 Level to the pals.

Ch25 - there are 2 directions to go in so obviously Boyd's not going to be doing anything in one but he will be in the other unless Jill goes this way, but the Bolt Axe will get her, she needs to remain close by Boyd and so does Titania to keep support advantage, the side you sent the other 2 WILL get done quicker but other units will have to be inevitably sent to other side, and you don't want to split the pals up. Therefore I think neither side has an advantage in this chap, in fact if anything Boyd's higher HP means that he can soak up the rock hits as well (though we must again assume competence from the player to avoid this). Enemies are close together again and effect of the hill gives an impression of a long map but actually it's shorter than you realise. 1 Level to Kieran (as level exp catches up to Boyd and Oscar).

Ch26 - move is important but I think it is better to remain compact in this map because otherwise you have all of your fragile mages and stuff defending themselves it is better to keep the units back. Also the enemies in this chapter are actually quite strong and more compact in groups therefore movement is only important TO GET TO THESE GROUPS which Boyd can do, Oscar and Kieran only convey an advantage of getting to the boss while skipping the upper and left groups of enemies which I really think shouldn't be done because...another stat check:

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 20/10 52.75 25.2 19.5 19.15 13.45 13.75 8.75

Oscar 20/8 42.2 18.8 20 19.8 12.2 18.4 10.2

Kieran 20/3 39 18 17 18 10.5 16 7

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 20/16 57.25 28.8 22.5 21.85 15.55 15.25 10.25

Oscar 20/13 44.95 21.05 22.5 22.05 13.7 20.15 11.7

Kieran 20/10 43.2 21.5 20.5 20.8 12.25 18.8 9.1

Now with supports (Boyd A Mist now, B Brom, Oscar A Kieran B Tanith now, Kieran A Oscar B Marcia) + best weapons:

So with their best weapons so far:

Boyd w/Silver Axe, 49.8 Atk, 21.85 AS, 59.25 Avo and 57.75 HP, 17.25 Def, 12.25 Res (Atk/Def support added)

Oscar w/Silver Lance, 36.05 Atk, 22.05 AS, 100.3 Avo and 44.95 HP, 20.15 Def, 11.7 Res (Avo support added)

Kieran w/Silver Axe, 36.5 Atk, 20.8 AS, 80.35 Avo and 43.2 HP, 20.8 Def, 11.1 Res (KW, Atk/Avo support added).

Boyd still has his massive offense advantage with his Ice supports, Axes (over Oscar, Oscar still won't have A I reckon), and inherent str growth. Not to mention a massive level lead still apparent against Kieran and Oscar (why? because he'll be killing his enemies for sure whereas Oscar and Kieran won't). He's also got durability with a 13HP lead now over Kieran and Oscar and with +5 Def and +1.45 Res with Oscar and 3.55 Def with Kieran BUT 1.35 against Kieran too. Durability goes to Oscar = Boyd >>> Kieran (that extra 13 HP + 1.35 Res > 3.55 Def). AS goes to Boyd and Oscar again with Kieran behind them by over 1 (anything over 1 is substantial). But that avoid is still killer and massively in favour of Oscar and less so but still there with Kieran so now it's durability + offense vs avoid and movement and I think that because Boyd is guaranteed to kill people I think that makes thing more efficient than anything. Boyd is still > Kieran in my opinion with Boyd = Oscar.

Ch27 - They each get 1 Level here (Oscar gets 2), map makes it that all enemies are spread out Oscar > Kieran = Boyd. Oscar + Kieran good to take out thieves. Map goes to cavaliers (mostly Oscar though due to high durability).

Ch28 - One of those chapters where movement DOES NOT MATTER. You have some really dangerous Dragons here so Oscar and Kieran should pace themselves otherwise they will die. They shouldn't be using their full move range. Boyd is the best here again because he can soak up the Dragon attacks as well as use Laguz Axe to 2HKO Dragon something which due to his high offense he can do (I can't remember if they can all double) but either way it's taking Oscar/Kieran 3HKO the Dragon. Chapter goes to Boyd, he definitely gains 2 level ups because of the fact he can 2HKO anything this chapter with Silver Axe alone. 1 Level Up to Oscar and Kieran.

ChF - Again no real utility bonus to either side here, Boyd is good against the laguz, Oscar and Kieran can go around the sides.

So, in conclusion: Boyd conveys more utility than both Oscar and Kieran. He has a substantial level lead over Oscar and Kieran (because he'll be killing things with more Atk and lower speed penalties for higher Atk) whereas Oscar and Kieran with similar Atk will find it much harder to at least 2HKO. He is offensive-wise the best and can 2HKO practically anyone post Ch22 this is amplified by high Str growth, Ice Supports and Axes. His durability thanks to Ice supports is also better than Kieran's (higher HP and Res vs a bit more def by Kieran) and the same I would say over Oscar (much higher HP vs higher Def) and out of the three he is the best to take down mages and laguz (he can soak up the big hits). Yes the only thing I can really see Kieran having ahead of Boyd is movement but I've talked through each chapter and assessing how important movement is to each map.That AS too will be much better with Boyd in the beginning because he can afford to use the heavier weapons whereas everyone else will be having a much more difficult time. Over time Oscar = Boyd in AS (though still Boyd's offense takes advantage of it the most) but ALWAYS is better than Kieran's and can take advantage of axes much more substantially than Kieran. He is definitely better and makes more chapters more efficient than Kieran (11 vs 5 chapters). Kieran late arrival does not help the level lead and will not catch up with Boyd. Boyd > Kieran

With Oscar, it boils down to higher Avo vs higher offense and because Boyd has such good Offense that he can 2HKO many guys which Oscar can only dream of, he is definitely more useful in spite of the lower avoid (also Boyd's avoid is good anyway after a point the Avoid lead becomes redundant). Oscar can get to places faster but takes longer taking enemies down, Boyd is more durable and at the same time can OHKO mages and 2HKO others (especially laguz).

Who is the most efficient for each chapter:

Boyd (=11)

Ch 2

Ch 5

Ch 7

Ch 8

Ch 12

Ch 15

Ch 17 (P2 and P3)

Ch 20

Ch 22

Ch 26

Ch 28

Oscar (=10)

Ch 9

Ch 10

Ch 13

Ch 14

Ch 16

Ch 18

Ch 23

Ch 25

Ch 26

Ch 27

Kieran (=5)

Ch 14

Ch 18

Ch 23

Ch 25

Ch 27

Equal (=7)

Ch 6

Ch 11

Ch 17 (P1 and P4)

Ch 19

Ch 21

Ch 24

Ch F

Boyd > Oscar > Kieran is how I see it.

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Other than the already mentioned Mia and Zihark, Gatrie isn't terribly likely to be in play and Lucia both isn't very good and shows up rather late. She can probably always get B Mordecai but that's only 5 Hit.

The point isn't that Ilyana can't have supports, but that her supports aren't super likely compared to her competition. Calill gets decent units in Tormod/Nephenee (and can switch to siege tomes with more hit). Tormod gets Calill, Devdan is ehh but Reyson is very frequently in play (and he can use Meteor which has more hit). Soren is a bit shakier, but Adept does improve his hit rates indirectly.

So in addition to the Mag difference possibly being relevant (2HKOing vs. 3HKOing), Ilyana's hit advantage only seems relevant if we give her supports and give none to the other sages- which doesn't seem to encompass most playthroughs.

I can go with Calill > the other Mages, but Tormod still needs a lot of bexp and babying to catch up. Ilyana and Soren are going to be several levels ahead of Tormod when he shows up.

Adept is a really bad way to improve hit rate; I'd even say it's a negative rather than a positive. With only around 15 uses of siege tomes per game, even one siege tome use is gamechanging. For example, if you had to use Adept with 2 uses of Meteor / Bolting / Blizzard left, the tome would simply break.

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Adept is a really bad way to improve hit rate; I'd even say it's a negative rather than a positive. With only around 15 uses of siege tomes per game, even one siege tome use is gamechanging. For example, if you had to use Adept with 2 uses of Meteor / Bolting / Blizzard left, the tome would simply break.

Soren cannot be penalized for Adept, because if you really don't like it, you can remove it. But it's not hard to attack with Soren last if you're worried about an accidental siege tome use. And in the few cases where Adept is a boon (like against Schaeffer), Soren is more reliable.

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how does boyd have a level lead in all this exactly

oscar's early game is way better than boyd's because oscar can take a bunch of hits early game cause of significantly more defense and almost as much HP...

EDIT: A lot of your stuff is an argument through more of a turtling strategy or even a slow paced strategy. Oscar/Kieran can hit enemy lines faster than Boyd and they can live through them. Boyd's low defense makes it a little bit harder on him in terms of survival.

Edited by Lord Raven
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Soren cannot be penalized for Adept, because if you really don't like it, you can remove it. But it's not hard to attack with Soren last if you're worried about an accidental siege tome use. And in the few cases where Adept is a boon (like against Schaeffer), Soren is more reliable.

I'm not saying he should be penalized; I just don't think you can use it as a counterargument.

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Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 20/10 52.75 25.2 19.5 19.15 13.45 13.75 8.75

Oscar 20/8 42.2 18.8 20 19.8 12.2 18.4 10.2

Kieran 20/3 39 18 17 18 10.5 16 7

Lvl HP Str Skl Spd Lck Def Res

Boyd 20/16 57.25 28.8 22.5 21.85 15.55 15.25 10.25

Oscar 20/13 44.95 21.05 22.5 22.05 13.7 20.15 11.7

Kieran 20/10 43.2 21.5 20.5 20.8 12.25 18.8 9.1

How on earth is this inflated level happening when Boyd won't see nearly as much combat as Oscar or Kieran?
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how does boyd have a level lead in all this exactly

oscar's early game is way better than boyd's because oscar can take a bunch of hits early game cause of significantly more defense and almost as much HP...

EDIT: A lot of your stuff is an argument through more of a turtling strategy or even a slow paced strategy. Oscar/Kieran can hit enemy lines faster than Boyd and they can live through them. Boyd's low defense makes it a little bit harder on him in terms of survival.

Boyd has a level lead because (it's in the post) he does not have the AS penalties (or substantially less than Oscar) to be able to 2HKO guys. Boyd can kill far more easily than Oscar and therefore gets more exp (like the knights in Ch 6 or Ch 7) because of amazing combat prowess. Oscar can take hits but does not 2HKO anything early game (except mages). Yes his defense is lower than Oscar's at the beginning but his durability grows such that = Oscar's because the HP lead is amplified. And Rhys is there and if you assume no incompetence in the part of the player with Boyd, he will be healing Boyd in the early stages (Titania and Oscar being able to live through) - the only other character requiring healing probs Ike. Also durability by Chapter 6 is 6 HP vs 3.5 Def (Oscar winning of course but slightly I would call the HP lead substantial enough to warrant some durability).

I think I said in my early post why movement is not necessary in certain chapters. Sometimes it's because the enemies are close together or because the terrain is such, please consult what I've written for each chapter for more in-depth info.

Yes, but he can soak the hits well because of his high HP, he's the best of the three for dealing with mages and can OHKO eventually. It's not a turtling strategy, it's more of yes Oscar and Kieran may survive and may kill but Boyd may survive and will kill.

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Oscar is getting far more kills than Boyd. He has more move so he's attracting far more enemies than Boyd.

Yeah but he won't be 2HKOing them like Boyd will the soldiers in Ch5, knights in Ch7 or knights/cavaliers in 8. Lances < Axes, Boyd's AS > Oscar AS when talking about best weapons for each character at knight smashing time, and Boyd's Atk > Oscar's

Edited by pikablu
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