FE9 Tier list v3

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Mia by level 13 is a bit ludicrous, especially considering she more than likely won't be able to get a level in two of the chapters mentioned(her join chapter and Chapter 10, considering we go stealth). Assuming we give her 411 BEXP in Chapter 8, she'll gain two or three levels, depending on how much you had her fight in the previous chapter. This would put her around level 8 or 9 going into that chapter.

411 BEXP at level 9 leaves her 16 BEXP from 4 levels.

Considering it's mostly a defense chapter by that time, you probably don't want her on the frontlines due to her bad durability and not so reliable avoid, so she'll more than likely gain less than a level. She'll probably gain another level (or two) in the next chapter, and then we'll skip chapter 10 due to not many participating in it.

Ch8 is quite easy to keep her alive in, given you play accordingly. She can hold the left with someone else fine since there is only one unit with 2 range who is an archer whom you can take out on turn 2. From there, she can vulnerary up on player phase and let vantage kills do the damage. Soren can also back her up to great effect also due to the lack of 2 range, and between kills and damage exp, more than one level should come easy. Ch9 has fail hit bandits. Ch7 is probably her worst, but she can still do some. The exp gained in Ch7 will be offset by her gains in the next two chapters.

[Narga_Rocks]

EDIT:I'm having a deja-vu here.A unit with great availability that starts off a little shaky,and then becomes a killing machine without fear of death for a massive timeframe with resources that no one else is even comparable with...it's the RD tier list all over again.

Those two situations are not comparable at all. I wouldn't even consider PoR Mia to be on the same planet as RD Mia. Maybe if the VK/Wrath came a bit earlier and Mia's start wasn't so godawful, but they don't and it is.

I am a bit surprised, though, to be seeing arguments here that I thought were dead back in 2007. What's old is new again!

Yeah, Mia needs a lot to fix her issues here (and can't).

Vague Katti only lasts 25 kills and while it's great in that time period she's still got range to worry about. There is nothing we can do to fix her durability. Well, 7 avo from Largo, but not likely to fix much, and it's really late. Say level 11 and 37 hp and 28 spd and 17 luck and 14 def (rounded the last two up). I haven't played this in a while, so I'm not sure when to say this level, but I'll go with chapter 25.

73 avo. Enemies have decent enough hit that this is a problem, even now when her speed and luck are pretty high and other units are almost invincible. Warriors she's practically laughing at, at least when they equip axes, but lots of enemies are over 100 hit (including lance users). If she had an earth option, or maybe even if she had two units with wind/thunder/dark that she could support (and early), she'd be better here. She's counting on 3HKOing the enemy and staying away from bow users. Oh, and 17 or 18 str means 26 or 27 mt with a killing edge without supporters, or I suppose 29 mt with A Rhys, though Rhys is squishy and we are trying to make her invincible (at 1 range, anyway) and make use of it. There are a fair number of things she doesn't 3HKO. I suppose a steel forge with +9 crit would help her 3HKO more stuff, but it's still annoying.

I think she's better than Taur here, and I don't remember the game well enough to say anything more.

And nothing to fix 12 whole chapters since there is no wrath yet. Forges aren't something you can make more than one of per chapter, and money is limited enough you can't stick crit on everything, and enemy luck doesn't wash away the first 4 or 5 for units without an innate crit boost like it does in RD. You can't move skills. In RD she can be made rather durable by her fourth chapter, and she's still very useable beforehand and has better offence than many, and in 3-3 better than most. Oh, and 70% hp growth, 45% str growth, 40% def growth on a SM. That's just not right. What was IS thinking. 50% hp growth and 40% str growth and 20% def growth in PoR. Much more swordmaster-esque. RD Mia is like Lex!Lakche or something. I mean, not really, but she's much closer than PoR Mia.

I'm not sure PoR Mia is in the same universe as RD Mia. She's a bit closer to Mia in RD in EM or NM, though, at least when compared to the rest of the team. She's faster in this game than the rest of the team, but they still double a ton of things anyway. Kinda like Mia in RD in EM.

edit1:

Ch9 has fail hit bandits.

I don't even want to think about those bandits. That has got to be the one time in all my playing of Fire Emblem that I truly got rng screwed. Well, 19 luck for a level 20 Micaiah was pretty bad, but not detrimental.

She got hit 3 times in a row by <30% listed hit rates. Even if I just say 30%, that's still only 18.3% true. That's just a ~0.613% chance of dying, and she died. And since I'm pretty sure one of them was ~20 listed, it's more like <.3%. Not that I'm holding that against her. It's only happened once in like 3 or 4 playthroughs of PoR and 3 of RD and 1 of FE4. But it happened to her. I'm still bitter.

edit2:

I suppose if they left supports like they were in the previous games and fire gave +.5 atk, +2.5 acc, +2.5 Avoid, +2.5 crit she'd be significantly better than she is now. And an A Rhys would mean +15 avo and +15 crit. Oh what could have been. Ilyana still isn't helping, though: +0.5 atk, +0.5 def/res, +2.5 acc, +2.5 crit.

Still, A Rhys, B Ilyana: +5 mt, +1 def/res, +25 acc, +15 avo, +25 crit. That would be cool. +40 crit + skill/2 + 50 + 9 (from forge).

Edited September 23, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Sol Hiryu]

411 BEXP at level 9 leaves her 16 BEXP from 4 levels.

Ugh, I'm more tired than I thought. You're right, it does give her around four levels, more or less. However, this still does not change the fact that her durability is very bad around this time. Level 9 Mia only has 7 Def and 23 HP, with only 38 Avo.

Ch8 is quite easy to keep her alive in, given you play accordingly. She can hold the left with someone else fine since there is only one unit with 2 range who is an archer whom you can take out on turn 2. From there, she can vulnerary up on player phase and let vantage kills do the damage. Soren can also back her up to great effect also due to the lack of 2 range, and between kills and damage exp, more than one level should come easy. Ch9 has fail hit bandits. Ch7 is probably her worst, but she can still do some. The exp gained in Ch7 will be offset by her gains in the next two chapters.

I'm not sure about that. All she has to attack with are a Wo Dao, which does laughable damage without a crit, or an Iron Sword, which only gives her 13 Atk. She more than likely won't get a forge here, since this is the first chapter you can make one. Even with Vantage, she's facing some significant risk. Let's look:

2x Myrmidon lv 7 (steel sword)

21 hp, 15 atk, 4 AS, 92 hit, 9 avo, 4 def, 1 res, 4 crit, 1 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 8 (steel sword)

21 hp, 15 atk, 5 AS, 95 hit, 12 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

1x Myrmidon lv 8 (steel blade)

22 hp, 19 atk, 1 AS, 97 hit, 4 avo, 5 def, 1 res, 5 crit, 2 cev

IIRC, most of these ones are on the left. If they aim for her, they have around a 54 to 59% chance of hitting her. This can quickly add up into a 3HKO by themselves, but if other enemies are attacking her...

3x Soldier lv 8 (steel lance)

26 hp, 17 atk, 1 AS, 88 hit, 4 avo, 7 def, 2 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

I'm pretty sure one or two of those are on the left. She gets 3HKOed again, but she's looking at 60% listed hit while she 3RKOs him. Healing her and putting her on the frontlines is a very bad idea with her HP/Def ratio, especially at these rates. Vantage will not save her or give her a safe enemy phase in Chapter 8.

But her being around level 12 seems like a safe number. It still doesn't change the fact that her performance is entirely lackluster until promotion.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You really are tired if you mentioned the Wo Dao.

Anyways, her durability stems from the fact that she will take only one attack per turn with the correct blockage setup and so not have to worry about 3 hit kills.

[Sol Hiryu]

...I meant the Slim Sword. Crap. *sighs*

I suppose I'll just have to wait until I actually get some sleep before I make any more posts off the top of my head. =/

EDIT: For the sake of the argument, I do agree with Mia > Taur, but I honestly think it's really close as far as they're concerned.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Sol Hiryu

[Zkirsche]

Goodness, I though people already had neutral utility downed when it comes to availability >_>. Whatever, I'll get to that now.

For chapters 19, 20 and a good part of 21, she has wrath + vantage combo activated for epic win, so positive utility please.

As for the rest...

Giving her ~100 bexp (<10%), and a level in chapter 7:

Level 8 Mia with a steel sword: 22 HP, 16 Atk, 10 AS, 27 Avo, 7 Def, 2.5 Res, 5 Crit

She ORKO's 12 enemies, 2RKO's a majority, 3RKO's The armours she can't double (Albeit with the armour slayer) and any other enemies she can't double except for the cavalier which she 5RKO's, but she doesn't need to face him anyway. Considering it's easy to only have her getting attacked once or twice per enemy phase, I won't bother with durability.

In chapter 11, giving her 2 levels of combat from chapters 8 and 9 and 3 levels from bexp gets her to Level 13, and I think her performance has been explored enougth at level 13 in chapter 9, so I'll leave it at that. In chapter 13, giving her an extra 2 levels from chapter 11 we get a Mia which looks like this:

Level 15 Mia with a killing edge, 'C' Rhys, 'C' Ilyana: 26 HP, 20 Atk, 17 AS, 43 Avo, 9 Def, 4 Res, 37 Crit

She can ORKO 18 enemies on the map (Using the wyrmslayer to ORKO the ravens), and 2RKO's the rest. Negative utility? I'm not seeing it. It takes 18 or more attack to 3RKO Mia, only 13 enemies achieve this (well, 1 of those 2RKO's her), meaning only 16/38 enemies 3-RKO her. It's not too bad, not enougth for negative utility, at least. Especially considering she has a >30% chance of not being hit in the first place thanks to a crit.

Chapter 18 comes along and we have this...

Level 20/2 Mia with a steel sword, 'A' Rhys, 'B' Ilyana: 33 HP, 25 Atk, 23 AS, 59 Avo, 13 Def, 9 Res, 24 Crit

It appears I underlevelled Mia in my comparison, oh well.

This is 2RKO'ing things, yes, but this is under the assumption she can't get 1 forge over a great portion of the game when other sword users have likely made one for them selves and trading things around is easy and that she doesn't get a crit eventually, which isn't incredibly unlikely. Most enemies 4RKO her but a few can 3RKO her. Not that it matters as she has a good chance to dodge or instablick anyway. Take the wyverns as an example. She has a 42% chance of not even getting struck by their lances. That's pretty good.

Overall, I fail to see how she can amount to neutral utility overall and I can easily see how she can amount to a positive contribution overall.

though remember Taur can fix his AS with Resolve.

Isn't that like, incredibly hard to get him down to?

[grandjackal]

I think you mean Laguzslayer.

But yeah, it seems that we have ignored how useful vantage can be it seems. Might not be a cure-all, but it does help quite greatly. Makes me wonder if she could skyrocket. Lol, Largo finally has a viable support that wants him.

In fact, I don't really see her under Devdan. Gatrie might have earlyame utility, but if Mia isn't a negative at times, I see no way she can't be beating him either.

Perhaps under Rhys is asking to much?

Edited September 23, 2009 by Kuja

[Interceptor]

Goodness, I though people already had neutral utility downed when it comes to availability >_>.

FE9 HM is so ludicrously easy that I'm having a hard time understanding how a unit could be so bad that they actually slow you down significantly over the course of their time with the army. The only way to shit on Mia's utility in this game would be to deploy an army that's so bad that her contribution is actually a significant portion of the total output, aka invalidate the entire premise of an efficiency tier list.

Or does this tier list not care about efficiency at all?

[Zkirsche]

Perhaps under Rhys is asking to much?

Well, it depends on whether you view her performance in chapters 7-18 as a negative or not, as her performance with wrath + Vantage in chapter's 19-25 (considering Geoof's poor mobility in chapter 25)(7 chapters) is better than any leads Geoffrey might have in the chapters 26-E (4 chapters).

So yeah, Mia > Geoff might be plausable.

[grandjackal]

So with this in mind, let's think supports.

Mia is getting A Rhys, end of story. Illyana? Illyana couldn't give a damn for 1 ATK. She'd definitely prefer Zihark and Mordy. Who does this leave?

Largo of course. He now has a viable support. Muarim gets Lethe when she's in play, but she's not always in play. Muarim basically has no one else except Largo. This means a B B Muarim and Mia is possible for him.

+1 ATK, +1 Def, +15 avoid, +15 hit.

After 3 chapters, he'd seem a bit like this.

level 10 Largo

54 HP, 23+1 Str, 22 Skill, 21 Speed, 12 Luck, 10+1 Def, 3+1 Res. 56+15 hit, 54+15 avoid, 11 crit+bonus.

...OK, perhaps he doesn't change much. At least Mia gets avoid.

[Ether]

So with this in mind, let's think supports.

Mia is getting A Rhys, end of story. Illyana? Illyana couldn't give a damn for 1 ATK. She'd definitely prefer Zihark and Mordy. Who does this leave?

Largo of course. He now has a viable support. Muarim gets Lethe when she's in play, but she's not always in play. Muarim basically has no one else except Largo. This means a B B Muarim and Mia is possible for him.

+1 ATK, +1 Def, +15 avoid, +15 hit.

After 3 chapters, he'd seem a bit like this.

level 10 Largo

54 HP, 23+1 Str, 22 Skill, 21 Speed, 12 Luck, 10+1 Def, 3+1 Res. 56+15 hit, 54+15 avoid, 11 crit+bonus.

...OK, perhaps he doesn't change much. At least Mia gets avoid.

Mia could get Ilyana possibly.The support is fast,and helps her get her own att sooner,and the def doesn't hurt.As for Ilyana,people always bitch about how Z wants Muarim/Brom over her,and none of Ilyana's other options are outstanding.I'd rather have Ilyy's 1 Def earlier over Largo's 5 Avo later anyway.

Also,I agree with her moving over Geoff.

[Zkirsche]

Indeed, Ilyana isn't such a bad support when you consider most of her options have otehr options to consider. Ilyana also doesn't mind Atk, if you read my debate with Tino, you'll find that sometimes her Atk falls just short of a 2HKO on a few physical enemies, the Atk can help this.

[Ether]

Indeed, Ilyana isn't such a bad support when you consider most of her options have otehr options to consider. Ilyana also doesn't mind Atk, if you read my debate with Tino, you'll find that sometimes her Atk falls just short of a 2HKO on a few physical enemies, the Atk can help this.

Plus if she also supports Mordy that's +2 Att with Mia.

[Zkirsche]

so... any thoughts on Mia > Geoff, Cynthia?

[Progenitus]

wtf, geof roflstomps her, this shouldn't even be a debate

mia is one of the worst units on the team for a loooooong time. Her durability is garbage and her offense isn't much better and she has no 2-range (screw the SS).

Geof is really good in the few chapters he exists in. He has hueg durability and if he has any issues at all doubling it goes away really fast (lolparagon, lol55spdgrowth). I guess his att is rather bleh, but it should be moar than Mia anyway, and he has a horse and actual 1-2 range.

[Narga_Rocks]

wtf, geof roflstomps her, this shouldn't even be a debate

mia is one of the worst units on the team for a loooooong time. Her durability is garbage and her offense isn't much better and she has no 2-range (screw the SS).

Geof is really good in the few chapters he exists in. He has hueg durability and if he has any issues at all doubling it goes away really fast (lolparagon, lol55spdgrowth). I guess his att is rather bleh, but it should be moar than Mia anyway, and he has a horse and actual 1-2 range.

Have you ever considered reading over more than just the most recent post? Or how about actually countering the points people have made in those (unread by you) posts before making general statements with nothing to back it up and acting like you've proven a point?

Well, probably not.

[Interceptor]

wtf, geof roflstomps her, this shouldn't even be a debate

Is this, or is this not, a tier list that is supposed to be measuring a unit's contribution to efficient/speedy game completion? Anyone can feel free to take that one, we know that smash won't answer.

[-Cynthia-]

so... any thoughts on Mia > Geoff, Cynthia?

I'm not reall seeing it tbh, unless we want to make the entire tier list an availability fest.

Geoffrey is really good from 26-E, like Kieran level good, and this requires a minimum of resources. Mia has a pretty bad start, then she's fairly goodish from 18-25, then he beats her pretty handily for the last few chapters(horse, 1-2 range, durability, ORKOing a lot more, prettymuch everything).

Edited September 24, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Interceptor]

I'm not reall seeing it tbh, unless we want to make the entire tier list an availability fest.

Geoffrey is really good from 26-E, like Kieran level good, and this requires a minimum of resources. Mia has a pretty bad start, then she's fairly goodish from 18-25, then he beats her pretty handily for the last few chapters(horse, 1-2 range, durability, ORKOing a lot more, prettymuch everything).

So then the answer to my question is that this tier list does not measure contributions to efficiency? Units are ranked by statistical comparisons to the stuff that they're around?

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

so... any thoughts on Mia > Geoff, Cynthia?

I'm not reall seeing it tbh, unless we want to make the entire tier list an availability fest.

Geoffrey is really good from 26-E, like Kieran level good, and this requires a minimum of resources. Mia has a pretty bad start, then she's fairly goodish from 18-25, then he beats her pretty handily for the last few chapters(horse, 1-2 range, durability, ORKOing a lot more, prettymuch everything).

With fair share of 411 BEXP and a level per chapter, Mia > Zihark at Zihark's join time. That's not much of a bad start.

Geoffrey also happens to beat Nephenee, Brom, and especially Zihark late game for approximately the same reasons. Maybe he should move up?

[Sol Hiryu]

I wouldn't say that Mia beats Zihark at join time...the latter has more Str, a Spd lead, and has Adept. Their defense is about even. */random*

Also, I think I get what Interceptor is talking about. Mia is really awful at first, but if used, her contributions to an efficient playthrough should be taken into account. Her use of resources are counted against her, true, but her use of them to help the team through the chapters where Geoffrey doesn't exist should be taken into account.

Using no resources > using resources, obviously, but we also have to consider that Mia has used those resources when Geoffrey didn't exist, and she's been using them fairly decently in those chapters. If this list is ranked solely on how they perform in chapters at certain levels/with resources and whatnot, then she loses to Geoffrey instantly.

...however, her contributions to the team over the period of 17 chapters makes it more even. If I recall, it's the thing that got Ike above Tanith, and how Rolf managed to get out of Bottom. Yes, availability works both ways, but it's still an advantage if she's doing something positive over time.

(Which isn't to say characters with more availability > characters with less, far from it.)

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I wouldn't say that Mia beats Zihark at join time...the latter has more Str, a Spd lead, and has Adept. Their defense is about even. */random*

These numbers again:

Level 13 Mia (knight band equipped when leveling up with BEXP): 24.5 hp, 10 str, 2.1 mag, 13.15 skl, 17.2 spd, 9.15 lck, 8.6 def, 3.75 res

Level 10 Zihark: 25 hp, 10 str, 1 mag, 13 skl, 15 spd, 6 lck, 7 def, 0 res

and then there's Vantage vs Adept

[Narga_Rocks]

I wouldn't say that Mia beats Zihark at join time...the latter has more Str, a Spd lead, and has Adept. Their defense is about even. */random*

These numbers again:

Level 13 Mia (knight band equipped when leveling up with BEXP): 24.5 hp, 10 str, 2.1 mag, 13.15 skl, 17.2 spd, 9.15 lck, 8.6 def, 3.75 res

Level 10 Zihark: 25 hp, 10 str, 1 mag, 13 skl, 15 spd, 6 lck, 7 def, 0 res

and then there's Vantage vs Adept

And then in chapter 12 Zihark gets bexp, too.

Of course, level 13 is only:

26.65 hp, 11.35 str, 14.5 skill, 16.8 spd, 7.2 lck, 7.9 def, 0.6 res.

Of course, a 2 hp lead and 1 str lead and similar spd and less/same luck isn't exactly making me think he's so superior at jointime.

As for Vantage vs. Adept, until Mia starts having OHKO chances, I'm not sure how good it is. It's really just effective on stuff that has been weakened, but I suppose it's not like enemies are never near enough to death when they attack that it's irrelevant. That probably gives her a durability lead until his supports kick in, but soon after she'll have wrath.

Would it be worth considering guard? She could use it in the chapter 16 base. It's skill%, so that's annoying since a level 17 Mia only has 14 skill, but combining a 14% guard with a whatever% critrate before wrath appears is better than crit alone, until wrath. I suppose it's only 3 chapter difference, though, so maybe it's insignificant.

[Interceptor]

Also, I think I get what Interceptor is talking about. Mia is really awful at first, but if used, her contributions to an efficient playthrough should be taken into account. Her use of resources are counted against her, true, but her use of them to help the team through the chapters where Geoffrey doesn't exist should be taken into account.

Using no resources > using resources, obviously, but we also have to consider that Mia has used those resources when Geoffrey didn't exist, and she's been using them fairly decently in those chapters. If this list is ranked solely on how they perform in chapters at certain levels/with resources and whatnot, then she loses to Geoffrey instantly.

...however, her contributions to the team over the period of 17 chapters makes it more even. If I recall, it's the thing that got Ike above Tanith, and how Rolf managed to get out of Bottom. Yes, availability works both ways, but it's still an advantage if she's doing something positive over time.

(Which isn't to say characters with more availability > characters with less, far from it.)

Precisely.

Obviously, being around isn't a get out of jail free card. Take the fictional character, Smish Phonetic, who shows up in Ch. 1, with 1 in every stat and 5% in every growth. Smish is around forever, but he'll be about as useful as tits on a bull and won't do anything useful no matter how much you plow things into him. Mia, OTOH, is poor but turns out fairly decent overall, in addition to having a neat trick availible to her. Given her current position in the doghouse, it's concievable that there is upward mobility in store for her.

But, that's efficient play. If this list is just about dividing up resources inefficiently, Soviet Russia style, and doing snapshot combat comparisons, so be it. Don't let this poster piss in your Cheerios. I just couldn't help but notice the lack of specific tiering guidelines in the OP, so I was curious.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Interceptor

[Dat Nick]

Take the fictional character, Smish Phonetic

I lol'd

But really, I'm not even seeing what makes Mia "horrible" to begin with. Yeah her start is bad but it shouldn't be enough to cancel out a solid game once she starts getting levels. Furthermore, I have to ask why "resource use", in this case just being EXP and a skill nearly nobody wants anyway is being weighed so heavily against her, and yet nobody considers Boyd consuming "resources", in this case being EXP, as any issue whatsoever. Can we stop only punishing bad characters for this? It's getting old.