FE9 Tier list v3

[-Cynthia-]

In other games Nephenee's meh base stats and E lances probably would make her pretty subpar, though Makalov's base stats would also make him pretty unimpressive. BEXP allows us to fix many of these issues, but Makalov still has a Mov advantage with Nephenee not winning much of anywhere else. Unlike Boyd or Ike she can't really claim earlygame utility either so...she is where she is.

[Radiant Dragon]

I could see Nephenee above Makalov in a game without BEXP. He's not helping in 14 and useless in 15, so he's walking into Chapter 16 at level 10. Nephenee should be quite a bit higher than that, and she's been contributing since Chapter 11.

Unfortunately for her though, BEXP not only exists, but it exists in abundance, so Makalov's leads later on let him come out on top.

An hypothetical no-BEXP Tier List would be kind of interesting, though. Suddenly Oscar > Marcia and Jill makes sense.

[Anouleth]

I could see Nephenee above Makalov in a game without BEXP. He's not helping in 14 and useless in 15, so he's walking into Chapter 16 at level 10. Nephenee should be quite a bit higher than that, and she's been contributing since Chapter 11.

Not really. Compare a level 12 Nephenee to a level 10 Makalov. Nephenee is better in terms of combat, sure. But Makalov still has that all important mobility lead and his growths will eventually push him ahead. Maybe they might be in the same tier, but Nephenee would not be above him.

I also question if what a level 7 Nephenee does in Chapter 11 can really be called "contributing", with her Rolf-level offense. She 7HKOes Lance Knights, for instance.

Edited September 8, 2011 by Anouleth

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i approve of makalov above nephenee >: D

all honesty makalov has a tough start as well, but so does nephenee...

[aku chi]

...you reset and get the very high chance of winning.

Which is inefficient...

Is 75% real hit that unreliable that you can't do anything with it?

It is enough to hit 75% of the time... If you are depending on that hit to clear the chapter and you will otherwise lose if you miss, that 75% hit is indeed concerning. If, on the other hand, that 75% hit is not critical to the chapter's completion (or you have a contingency plan in the event of a miss), it is not concerning. This is pretty elementary risk management.

And then there's a third hit. In any case, the rate is _not_ 100%, and you seem to shit on any strategy that has less than 100% working rate.

I believe I've made myself very clear with respect to difference between reliability and risk. You are being obtuse.

In Chapter 12, failing the early clear results in Marcia's death roughly 24% of the time. The other 75% ends in the chapter clear. It's both extremities, but one has almost 3x the chance of happening than the other, so how is it an unreliable clear? It is once again very easy to reset so that it works, either through screwing with Biorhythm or just simply doing it again. It is next to nothing as far as manipulation goes.

Are you talking about Chapter 15? My intent is not to argue that the ~75% reliable 2-turn Marcia Laguz Lance strategy should not be considered for an efficient run. My intent is to suggest that that strategy is not necessarily preferable to a more reliable 3-turn clear (of which there are many). It depends upon how we evaluate risk, and also any additional benefits we can gain from an additional turn (an extra treasure or two, perhaps). In my opinion, 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also be considered. My intent is to increase the scope of discussion, not diminish it. Marcia should be credited for enabling the most reliable (albeit ~75% reliable) 2-turn clear of C15. But units that can contribute significantly to more reliable 3-turn clears or 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also get some credit.

Prove it. I barely had anyone outside of Marcia at 20/3 by that point, whereas units like Soren who have very little move and get very little CEXP and I have no incentive to give any BEXP to due to that low move will receive nowhere near enough to hit 20/7. Remember how badly BEXP slows down after 20/1 or 20/2. 20/7 for Soren at that point in the game is unlikely, especially considering how impractical it is to have an army of 20/10 or 20/15 units by endgame.

You were training a non-optimal number of combat units. It's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/7 by C22, just as it's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/15 by Endgame. As for "proof", "proofs" are used in deductive reasoning. I think the word you're looking for is "demonstrate". I'm not quite in the mood to play 22 chapters of PoR to demonstrate how an optimal number of combat units can be 20/7 by C22. You can probably search for past HM efficiency logs to satisfy your desire for such data.

This is irrelevant. A unit who receives very little combat outside of relatively limited Siege tome use does not make good use of BEXP.

I've demonstrated how Soren can benefit from Bexp. If Soren is leveled to 20/7 and given a Spirit Dust, he can 2HKO Schaeffer with Meteor in C22 and OHKO Ballista operators with Bolting in C23.

I wasn't aware of how it was relevant.

It is suspicious that your perception of how much Bexp is available differs depending on the argument you're currently making.

Every single chapter where you show some argument against some low turn clears because they're not "100%" where you give examples of an extremely heavy resource dumped unit that also has a non-100% chance of clearing the chapter. Said resource dumped unit would not even receive the full resource dump.

1) I believe I've already addressed this specific criticism repeatedly.

2) That last sentence makes no sense. You are committing a couple fallacies, I believe. The first is assuming that all efficient runs feature resource distribution similar to your own. There is no one definitive efficient run (if there was, this tier list would be dull and devoid of controversy). There are a variety of efficient strategies, which require different units to be deployed and resources to be distributed differently. The second is that of begging the question. When arguing that a unit shouldn't receive certain resources you are assuming that they don't receive those resources.

Remind me why Soren's contributions in these chapters are large enough to place him over Tormod.

Consider yourself reminded.

If that truly *was* the case, then why is Reyson a whole tier below Marcia? There is no way that a Boots Reyson is *that* much better than a Boots Marcia considering how long this tier list has been argued on efficiency standards, and the amount of people who have played this game.

Marcia has 11 extra chapters of availability over Reyson, several in which she can make very significant contributions. I think it's pretty obvious that Reyson is the best unit in the chapters he is in.

Again you misunderstand/misrepresent my argument. It is not that Reyson is a considerably better Boots candidate than Marcia. It is that Reyson is an excellent Boots candidate (as is Marcia) and can provide unique contributions. He should be considered as a Boots candidate, along with Marcia (and probably Jill). Again, my goal is to increase the scope of discussion, not reduce it.

Proof? Titania can Hammer the knight extremely easily. Mordecai's more likely to be hanging back and baiting out a vigilante or something so Lethe (or Mordecai) can reach Zihark. If not, then Titania can still take out the Knight with ease with a Hammer.

Titania does not have perfect hit with the Hammer. And we were talking about C10, where there are no Vigilantes.

When is Titania ferrying Ike? Only place I can think of is Chapter 16 to the throne -- Marcia does that too, and in reality she won't be experiencing *heavy* combat until Turn 3 or 4 anyway where she'll be dropping Ike. She has no reason to be ferrying Ike in any other chapter aside from Chapters 1, 6, and to some extent 9 (Marcia is doing most of the ferrying, Titania clears out enemies extremely quickly so she's still not ferrying if you recruit Marcia).

We were talking about a non-stealth clear of C10. If we want to 3-turn it, we need a 9-mov unit to basically solo the chapter and clear the path to an Escape square and another 9-mov unit to rescue Ike and ferry him to the Escape square. I was suggesting transformed (via laguz stone) Mordecai as a potential 9-mov destroyer in this chapter. It isn't the only way to acheive this clear (promoted Oscar works even better), but it is (I argue) the best use of a laguz stone on a unit not named Reyson.

An early rout is more reliable than a late rout, considering it keeps you safe for longer. You love to harp on lack of reliability for things that have a rather large chance of working, but you really hate it when it ends up applying to your own arguments.

It is trivial to stay safe and leave enemies to kill on each of C17-3's ten turns. This is not a matter of reliability, it's a matter of making the best use of ten turns that are going to transpire no matter what we do.

He's not integral to a clear and it's a minor thing -- any well built mounted unit or unit in general can get you the Rescue staff by Turn 2. Any powerful physical unit can too. But the fact is that Marcia is still contributing far more than Oscar is overall, especially in that chapter. What, the fact that Oscar gets you a Rescue staff as opposed to Marcia being able to kill Shiharam by Turn 2 (or contribute heavily to the kill, you need a Siege tome) is grounds for arguing him over her?

Getting the Rescue staff is not a minor thing: it contributes to saving 2-3 turns in future chapters. And only a very durable, very offensively profficient 9-mov unit can get the C20 Rescue staff in 2 turns. I would certainly agree that Marcia's contributions are greater in C20, but Oscar can still make a very significant contribution in the chapter.

Marcia is definitely more valuable than Tanith in their shared chapters though simply because of the resource dump. Marcia is far more likely to get the resource dump anyway, not that this comparison actually matters in any argument being made because we already agree on Jill > Marcia > Tanith.

It matters because you made a statement that I disagreed with. You're still making that same statement. Allow me to retort.

First, let me clarify that I'm considering only performance in chapters 18-Endgame. Therer is no debate that Marcia is more valuable than Tanith in chapters 10-17.

In a particular efficiency playthrough, there is some resource bundle, MBundle, which it is optimal to give Marcia. This might include ~1000 Bexp, a Dracoshield, a Seraph Robe, maybe an Energy Drop, a near monopoly on the Full Guard, and maybe the Boots. Because MBundle is Marcia's optimal resource, Marcia is most valuable when we give her MBundle.

Assume, for this argument, that Tanith receives MBundle. Now we consider a Tanith with ~1000 Bexp (instant 4 levels) and all of the stat boosters and other resources we discussed as being in Marcia's optimal resource bundle. Marcia with MBundle doesn't have any notable leads over Tanith with MBundle except a couple points of Strength lategame after Tanith caps level. Tanith, meanwhile, can wield all of the magic weapons to grab difficult ORKOs against Wyvern Lords, Tigers, and Cats; double the very fastest enemies (like Homasa and Petrine) with ease; has a small durability advantage at first; and has the very useful Reinforce skill. I think it's easy to see that in this theoretical comparison, Tanith with MBundle is better than Marcia with MBundle in chapters 18-Endgame. Because they're taking the same set of resources (MBundle), Tanith is also more valuable (distinguished from better by taking into account opportunity costs).

But MBundle is not Tanith's optimal resource bundle. Therefore, there are other units that can derive more value from some of these resources. So by distributing MBundle to units who make better value of the resources, like Marcia, we can actually improve Tanith's value to the team. Tanith is no longer quite as good, but she allows other units to put some of those resources to better use. Via the transitive property of comparisons, Tanith is therefore more valuable than Marcia in their shared chapters. This is tha case even when Marcia is better than Tanith because of the resources she has taken, quod erat demonstrandum.

What the hell happened to this debate? I'm not even sure what the purpose is. Only like one or two points focus on Marcia vs Oscar, and like one or two points focus on Tormod vs Soren.

It's quite simple, really. You've written a lot of different things I've disagreed with. I've retorted. There is no higher purpose. Don't feel compelled to respond to every paragraph I type.

[Anouleth]

Are you talking about Chapter 15? My intent is not to argue that the ~75% reliable 2-turn Marcia Laguz Lance strategy should not be considered for an efficient run. My intent is to suggest that that strategy is not necessarily preferable to a more reliable 3-turn clear (of which there are many). It depends upon how we evaluate risk, and also any additional benefits we can gain from an additional turn (an extra treasure or two, perhaps). In my opinion, 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also be considered. My intent is to increase the scope of discussion, not diminish it. Marcia should be credited for enabling the most reliable (albeit ~75% reliable) 2-turn clear of C15. But units that can contribute significantly to more reliable 3-turn clears or 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also get some credit.

I'm not sure who came up with this "75% reliable" number, but I can tell you that the reliability of killing Muarim in two turns can be improved above 95% by giving Marcia a skill band, Secret Book, and Vantage. A lot of resources to swallow, however.

EDIT: it looks like at some point this argument was originally about 2-turning Chapter 14 and skipping Makalov and the various other items. I can't imagine what happened in between!

You were training a non-optimal number of combat units. It's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/7 by C22, just as it's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/15 by Endgame. As for "proof", "proofs" are used in deductive reasoning. I think the word you're looking for is "demonstrate". I'm not quite in the mood to play 22 chapters of PoR to demonstrate how an optimal number of combat units can be 20/7 by C22. You can probably search for past HM efficiency logs to satisfy your desire for such data.

I have some data here. And it's not even like my playthrough was perfectly efficient. I trained Rolf, for chrissakes.

In a particular efficiency playthrough, there is some resource bundle, MBundle, which it is optimal to give Marcia. This might include ~1000 Bexp, a Dracoshield, a Seraph Robe, maybe an Energy Drop, a near monopoly on the Full Guard, and maybe the Boots. Because MBundle is Marcia's optimal resource, Marcia is most valuable when we give her MBundle.

Assume, for this argument, that Tanith receives MBundle. Now we consider a Tanith with ~1000 Bexp (instant 4 levels) and all of the stat boosters and other resources we discussed as being in Marcia's optimal resource bundle. Marcia with MBundle doesn't have any notable leads over Tanith with MBundle except a couple points of Strength lategame after Tanith caps level. Tanith, meanwhile, can wield all of the magic weapons to grab difficult ORKOs against Wyvern Lords, Tigers, and Cats; double the very fastest enemies (like Homasa and Petrine) with ease; has a small durability advantage at first; and has the very useful Reinforce skill. I think it's easy to see that in this theoretical comparison, Tanith with MBundle is better than Marcia with MBundle in chapters 18-Endgame. Because they're taking the same set of resources (MBundle), Tanith is also more valuable (distinguished from better by taking into account opportunity costs).

I don't know if I really agree with this line of logic. MBundle in Chapter 18 is not the same as MBundle in Chapter 11 (just as the Chapter 2 Speedwing is much, much more valuable than Bryce's Speedwing). Of course, that's just another point in favour of Tanith, I guess.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

will respond fully later

I'm not sure who came up with this "75% reliable" number

It's a *really* funny story, because apparently the 30% displayed hit with 40% killer axe crit is a *really* big deal in terms of 2-turning without Makalov.

[Anouleth]

will respond fully later

It's a *really* funny story, because apparently the 30% displayed hit with 40% killer axe crit is a *really* big deal in terms of 2-turning without Makalov.

Uh, Gashilama has way more than 30 display hit. Somewhere between 45 and 50. I guess you could have Marcia pull out an Iron Sword forge, but she needs to be like level 20/11 to have the strength to 2HKO him, which is pretty unreasonable.

And I don't really share in your indignation at the audacity of someone caring about units dying and strategies completely failing.

Edited September 15, 2011 by Anouleth

[Lord Raven]

Forged Steel Lance, and I'm fairly sure 75% is actually her chance of living through Gashilama- if he has between 45% and 50% then he has 25 or less percent of killing her. This strengthens the point some more, especially considering the Steel Lance's far larger attack than an Iron Sword. A 75% is not at all a bad chance.

Which is inefficient...

Explain. An efficient low turn strategy still requires resets no matter what happens simply due to trial and error. Resetting 25% or less of the time is extremely easy.

It is enough to hit 75% of the time... If you are depending on that hit to clear the chapter and you will otherwise lose if you miss, that 75% hit is indeed concerning. If, on the other hand, that 75% hit is not critical to the chapter's completion (or you have a contingency plan in the event of a miss), it is not concerning. This is pretty elementary risk management.

You will not lose if you miss. The 25% chance refers to her chance of death, which is failing a 2-turn but it is also killing your most useful unit at that point in the game. You will reset anyway for Marcia if she gets killed.

I believe I've made myself very clear with respect to difference between reliability and risk. You are being obtuse.

There's still not a 100% chance Soren can clear it on his own or with the help of Callil.

Are you talking about Chapter 15? My intent is not to argue that the ~75% reliable 2-turn Marcia Laguz Lance strategy should not be considered for an efficient run. My intent is to suggest that that strategy is not necessarily preferable to a more reliable 3-turn clear (of which there are many). It depends upon how we evaluate risk, and also any additional benefits we can gain from an additional turn (an extra treasure or two, perhaps). In my opinion, 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also be considered. My intent is to increase the scope of discussion, not diminish it. Marcia should be credited for enabling the most reliable (albeit ~75% reliable) 2-turn clear of C15. But units that can contribute significantly to more reliable 3-turn clears or 4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should also get some credit.

You know the reason why it's a 75% win rate? Because of Laguz Lance accuracy and wanting to hit with two 87% hits. You know Marcia is the only one who can do that at that point in the game? Jill will have a hard time doubling.

4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should be considered but you know which unit is still reaching Muarim in 4 turns? Marcia! Or a mage but who would put a Mage in the middle of a bunch of laguz that will eat his ass for dinner? There's also thieves who tink Muarim really well. And then there's the fact that you can gain the Physic Staff and boots *extremely* easily in two turns as not only I have done but many others have done. Trust me, while those 4-turns should be considered, it should be as heavily factored as the fact that the 2-turn allows for more reliability securing the max BEXP for the chapter and keeping your thieves alive when they nab treasure.

Who is contributing more significantly to a more reliable 3-turn clear, exactly? I can only think of Jill who can still miss quite easily and doesn't even double unless you didn't recruit Marcia and didn't otherwise do a resource dump.

You were training a non-optimal number of combat units. It's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/7 by C22, just as it's trivial to have 6-8 combat units at 20/15 by Endgame. As for "proof", "proofs" are used in deductive reasoning. I think the word you're looking for is "demonstrate". I'm not quite in the mood to play 22 chapters of PoR to demonstrate how an optimal number of combat units can be 20/7 by C22. You can probably search for past HM efficiency logs to satisfy your desire for such data.

I've demonstrated how Soren can benefit from Bexp. If Soren is leveled to 20/7 and given a Spirit Dust, he can 2HKO Schaeffer with Meteor in C22 and OHKO Ballista operators with Bolting in C23.

I don't give a fuck what the word is because that's petty semantics. Anouleth's is also around 12 more turns than mine and also note that Tormod did Soren's job in that chapter. Also note the myriad of arguments as to why Tormod may just be equally as efficient as Soren to do that and how he only needs to be at a lower level due the advantages he possesses over Soren- including Mage Band, Spirit Dust, and Attack supports which actually act as around 2 Spirit Dusts' worth of magic on their own. That on top of a Spirit dust and reliable hit boosting supports.

It is suspicious that your perception of how much Bexp is available differs depending on the argument you're currently making.

I said jack shit about availability I'm just saying you're getting much less out of using BEXP on Soren than other units.

1) I believe I've already addressed this specific criticism repeatedly.

And I've addressed that Tormod is still better at it just now v_v

2) That last sentence makes no sense. You are committing a couple fallacies, I believe. The first is assuming that all efficient runs feature resource distribution similar to your own. There is no one definitive efficient run (if there was, this tier list would be dull and devoid of controversy). There are a variety of efficient strategies, which require different units to be deployed and resources to be distributed differently. The second is that of begging the question. When arguing that a unit shouldn't receive certain resources you are assuming that they don't receive those resources.

Nope I'm assuming the strategies are similar to my own- where someone with low move is actually getting a small amount of combat (save Ike who is getting rescue dropped into combat) and therefore I have little obligation to give them a resource dump.

Consider yourself reminded.

You mean that argument where you said Tormod > Soren around the end anyway? And where you said for the first half of the game that Soren isn't helping much and in the second half of the game you said that Tormod is more likely to do things and receive combat? Cause you know, those are entirely grounds to argue Tormod above Soren.

Marcia has 11 extra chapters of availability over Reyson, several in which she can make very significant contributions. I think it's pretty obvious that Reyson is the best unit in the chapters he is in.

4 laguz stone uses doesn't make him the best char all the time.

Again you misunderstand/misrepresent my argument. It is not that Reyson is a considerably better Boots candidate than Marcia. It is that Reyson is an excellent Boots candidate (as is Marcia) and can provide unique contributions. He should be considered as a Boots candidate, along with Marcia (and probably Jill). Again, my goal is to increase the scope of discussion, not reduce it.

Then what point are you attempting to make in terms of the tier list?

Titania does not have perfect hit with the Hammer. And we were talking about C10, where there are no Vigilantes.

Once again what is your point?

We were talking about a non-stealth clear of C10. If we want to 3-turn it, we need a 9-mov unit to basically solo the chapter and clear the path to an Escape square and another 9-mov unit to rescue Ike and ferry him to the Escape square. I was suggesting transformed (via laguz stone) Mordecai as a potential 9-mov destroyer in this chapter. It isn't the only way to acheive this clear (promoted Oscar works even better), but it is (I argue) the best use of a laguz stone on a unit not named Reyson.

Marcia is the best way to do this then. Or Lethe instead of Mordecai. Or even Titania. Once again, your point?

It is trivial to stay safe and leave enemies to kill on each of C17-3's ten turns. This is not a matter of reliability, it's a matter of making the best use of ten turns that are going to transpire no matter what we do.

It's still weird about how obsessive you are about reliability when it leads to a more reliable and safe clear of the chapter- regardless of 10 turns passing- when you can just kill everything as soon as possible and prevent yourself from getting killed and having to restart the chapter or something. My units may have been underleveled, but if they as non-promoted units could rout the chapter really early I don't see what difference it makes with a higher level team, especially because they'll be able to rout faster. Soren still has a hard time getting combat, and with the right weapons he still is not doubling enough to hit D Thunder and he still doesn't get +1 Wpn level upon promotion.

Getting the Rescue staff is not a minor thing: it contributes to saving 2-3 turns in future chapters. And only a very durable, very offensively profficient 9-mov unit can get the C20 Rescue staff in 2 turns. I would certainly agree that Marcia's contributions are greater in C20, but Oscar can still make a very significant contribution in the chapter.

Compared to clearing the chapter it's pretty minor, and that still doesn't mean Oscar is the crux of the strategy. Oscar is not doing the rushing to the boss. Oscar is not able to arrive at the arrive square. Oscar only sits back and essentially fights the residual enemies; in which case, it's still very easy to position Tanith so that she doesn't get attacked much and gets Rescue on Turn 2, so you can still keep your "durable" unit back.

First, let me clarify that I'm considering only performance in chapters 18-Endgame. Therer is no debate that Marcia is more valuable than Tanith in chapters 10-17.

Then why argue at this point about Tanith and Marcia? What purpose is this serving at this point?

[Radiant Dragon]

Trust me, while those 4-turns should be considered, it should be as heavily factored as the fact that the 2-turn allows for more reliability securing the max BEXP for the chapter and keeping your thieves alive when they nab treasure.

I don't believe a the 2 turn clear is any more reliable than the 4 turn clear, except that it makes it less likely for Marcia to crit a Laguz or something. In all of my 4 turn clears of this chapter, I've never had a problem keeping both the Laguz and the Thieves (Sothe can easily nab Guard, the Silver Blade, the western Coin and Shine without facing any chance of death, although I'll admit I've never used him to get the Boots and Physic) alive.

[Lord Raven]

I actually don't see the difference between the two either way. Either way, Marcia needs to attack and kill Muarim in one round unless you want other Laguz to die (unless you want Jill to lure them away... valid enough tactic).

[Radiant Dragon]

I actually don't see the difference between the two either way. Either way, Marcia needs to attack and kill Muarim in one round unless you want other Laguz to die (unless you want Jill to lure them away... valid enough tactic).

Actually, you don't. Turn 2 is spent weakening those two Tigers so they'll run and heal. Turn 3 you attack Muarim with a weapon that doesn't 2RKO him. Turn 4 you finish him (on the Player Phase, otherwise a Cat suicides onto Marcia) after you've gotten Stefan and the treasure you want.

This does require Marcia (or Jill) to have the Laguzguard though, but I doubt that's a problem.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Lord Raven]

But wait... if you're using Jill to rescue Sothe then she needs the laguzguard in order to survive the nearby crow... I'm not sure but I remember Jill had a couple durability problems once she rescued sothe- enough that she needed the laguzguard. Still beside the point as both things are being considered, and technically the 4-turn is not a 100% chance either (just like the standard 2-turn).

Edited September 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[Radiant Dragon]

But wait... if you're using Jill to rescue Sothe then she needs the laguzguard in order to survive the nearby crow... I'm not sure but I remember Jill had a couple durability problems once she rescued sothe- enough that she needed the laguzguard.

Why would Jill need to rescue Sothe? I use her to rescue Lethe to recruit Stefan, but I make sure she only gets attacked once (by a Cat) while rescuing her. She never needed to heal. This is assuming Jill isn't at base level, though.

Still beside the point as both things are being considered, and technically the 4-turn is not a 100% chance either (just like the standard 2-turn).

No, but it's a lot better than ~75%.

[Lord Raven]

Why would Jill need to rescue Sothe? I use her to rescue Lethe to recruit Stefan, but I make sure she only gets attacked once (by a Cat) while rescuing her. She never needed to heal. This is assuming Jill isn't at base level, though.

Mine wasn't at base level here but I guess I had some weird stats on her anyway (no defense).

No, but it's a lot better than ~75%.

How so? 75% is still pretty high.

[Radiant Dragon]

Mine wasn't at base level here but I guess I had some weird stats on her anyway (no defense).

This is why I love Fixed Mode, and am sad that it hasn't been implemented in any other game.

How so? 75% is still pretty high.

Not as high as it could be, though. This is mostly a matter of opinion however, and I don't see the value in trying to convince you to change your opinion on this matter after seeing your last response to aku chi.

[Lord Raven]

Not as high as it could be, though. This is mostly a matter of opinion however, and I don't see the value in trying to convince you to change your opinion on this matter after seeing your last response to aku chi.

This is some of the shit we really need a committee to discuss and nail down because for the love of God something like this really causes contention among the masses over reliability turncounts.

[Radiant Dragon]

This is some of the shit we really need a committee to discuss and nail down because for the love of God something like this really causes contention among the masses over reliability turncounts.

Why does there need to be contention? Consider how units contribute to both strategies and be done with it.

[Lord Raven]

That's impossible to do objectively simply because I value a "somewhat reliable" clear (somewhat actually meaning applying the concept I brought up in my own thread to my strategies) as opposed to a 100% reliable clear. Obviously, you prefer the reverse.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Mercenary Raven

[aku chi]

Explain. An efficient low turn strategy still requires resets no matter what happens simply due to trial and error. Resetting 25% or less of the time is extremely easy.

Reseting is obviously inefficient. You are, at the very least, forced to replay the entire chapter over again from the start. There's also the additional inconvenience of physically restarting the system and re-navigating through the game's menus. Reseting is also not in any way required in an efficient run. I've made a couple no-reset efficient runs myself. Trial and error is helpful when deriving efficient strategies (which only needs to be done once). Once you have the efficient strategies, you needn't restart unless they're unreliable.

You will not lose if you miss. The 25% chance refers to her chance of death, which is failing a 2-turn but it is also killing your most useful unit at that point in the game. You will reset anyway for Marcia if she gets killed.

Exactly. A critical unit dying is synonymous with "losing".

There's still not a 100% chance Soren can clear it on his own or with the help of Callil.

There's no more reliable 1-turn strategy, and a 2-turn clear is almost guaranteed in the unlikely event that we miss. I don't know what point you're trying to make.

You know the reason why it's a 75% win rate? Because of Laguz Lance accuracy and wanting to hit with two 87% hits. You know Marcia is the only one who can do that at that point in the game? Jill will have a hard time doubling.

4-turn clears that recruit Stefan should be considered but you know which unit is still reaching Muarim in 4 turns? Marcia! Or a mage but who would put a Mage in the middle of a bunch of laguz that will eat his ass for dinner? There's also thieves who tink Muarim really well. And then there's the fact that you can gain the Physic Staff and boots *extremely* easily in two turns as not only I have done but many others have done. Trust me, while those 4-turns should be considered, it should be as heavily factored as the fact that the 2-turn allows for more reliability securing the max BEXP for the chapter and keeping your thieves alive when they nab treasure.

Who is contributing more significantly to a more reliable 3-turn clear, exactly? I can only think of Jill who can still miss quite easily and doesn't even double unless you didn't recruit Marcia and didn't otherwise do a resource dump.

There are (near) 100% reliable 3-turn rescue-drop strategies to clear C15. Either Jill or Marcia can safely drop a promoted unit (on turn 2) that can deal good damage to Muarim (a Sage or Swordmaster are ideal) and finish off Muarim on turn 3 with high accuracy. There is no debate that a Bexp-infused Marcia is a very valuable unit in C15. But her solo 2-turn strategy is not the only efficient strategy that should be considered for the purpose of this tier list. As for additional items, Guard and the Silver Blade are certainly nice to have. It's probably not a motivating factor, but it is a nice bonus (the Silver Blade is the most powerful sword until C24 and Guard is a nice skill).

I don't give a fuck what the word is because that's petty semantics. Anouleth's is also around 12 more turns than mine and also note that Tormod did Soren's job in that chapter. Also note the myriad of arguments as to why Tormod may just be equally as efficient as Soren to do that and how he only needs to be at a lower level due the advantages he possesses over Soren- including Mage Band, Spirit Dust, and Attack supports which actually act as around 2 Spirit Dusts' worth of magic on their own. That on top of a Spirit dust and reliable hit boosting supports.

I guess when one argument doesn't work you prefer to switch to another in stride. Tormod possesses no Mage Band or Spirit Dust "advantage" over Soren, since those are resources both can use. As for Tormod's extra attack from supports, they aren't even sufficient to counter Soren's natural Magic lead (and won't always be in play/range, yadda, yadda...). Moreover, Soren is likely to have a small but notable level lead over Tormod with an equivalent amount of Bexp. Oh, and Soren can match Tormod's accuracy even with his supports due to far superior Skill. And Soren has a potential Heaven support with Stefan.

Nope I'm assuming the strategies are similar to my own...

That's exactly what I accused you of.

You mean that argument where you said Tormod > Soren around the end anyway? And where you said for the first half of the game that Soren isn't helping much and in the second half of the game you said that Tormod is more likely to do things and receive combat? Cause you know, those are entirely grounds to argue Tormod above Soren.

Reading comprehension is clearly not one of your strongest suits.

4 laguz stone uses doesn't make him the best char all the time.

Reyson is absolutely essential for saving at least 1 turn in almost every chapter he's in. There is no other unit that can make that claim. I can't believe this is even debatable. Reyson's unique utility is unparalleled.

Marcia is the best way to do this then. Or Lethe instead of Mordecai. Or even Titania. Once again, your point?

LOL. Yeah, we'll give Marcia 1800 Bexp so she can still fail to 2HKO the Knight blocking the Escape square. Lethe also fails to 2HKO the tough units blocking the Escape square. Promoted Oscar or transformed Mordecai are our best options. Titania with a Hammer is our third best choice.

It's still weird about how obsessive you are about reliability when it leads to a more reliable and safe clear of the chapter- regardless of 10 turns passing- when you can just kill everything as soon as possible and prevent yourself from getting killed and having to restart the chapter or something. My units may have been underleveled, but if they as non-promoted units could rout the chapter really early I don't see what difference it makes with a higher level team, especially because they'll be able to rout faster. Soren still has a hard time getting combat, and with the right weapons he still is not doubling enough to hit D Thunder and he still doesn't get +1 Wpn level upon promotion.

All of your units (with the possible exception of Tormod) should be promoted by C17-3, Soren included. Sage Soren has enough durability to take an attack or two on enemy phase and enough AS to double most units with Elthunder. Soren can make great progress towards C Thunder here. It is trivial to get Soren to C Thunder (or Fire) by C22 if you plan for it.

Then what point are you attempting to make in terms of the tier list?

It's quite simple, really. You've written a lot of different things I've disagreed with. I've retorted. There is no higher purpose. Don't feel compelled to respond to every paragraph I type.

This exchange has ceased to have any value (if any value it had). I don't plan to respond again unless you bring up a new point of signifigance.

[Anouleth]

How so? 75% is still pretty high.

How can you not understand how 95% is higher than 75%? This just seems like you being needlessly obtuse.

[Radiant Dragon]

There are (near) 100% reliable 3-turn rescue-drop strategies to clear C15. Either Jill or Marcia can safely drop a promoted unit (on turn 2) that can deal good damage to Muarim (a Sage or Swordmaster are ideal) and finish off Muarim on turn 3 with high accuracy.

How exactly do you 'finish off' Muarim on turn 3 when he doesn't attack until you attack him? Or does he suddenly get aggressive on turn 3?

[aku chi]

How exactly do you 'finish off' Muarim on turn 3 when he doesn't attack until you attack him? Or does he suddenly get aggressive on turn 3?

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Marcia or Jill drop off their cargo on turn 2. Your flier (perhaps equipped with the Laguzguard) doesn't have a weapon equipped, so the transformed Tigers attack them. If you're dropping off a Sage, you can position it so that only 1 Tiger is in range. You place your flier directly behind your cargo, so their way isn't blocked on the next turn. On turn 3 you attack Muarim with both your cargo and your flier using high-accuracy weapons, finishing him off on player phase. For instance, a Sage can attack with a Fire forge (or slightly less desirably with a Thunder forge or Elfire) and Marcia (doubling) can finish Muarim off with a Steel Lance forge. Or, Jill can damage Muarim with a Steel Lance forge and your Swordmaster (doubling) can finish off Muarim with a Steel Sword forge.

Vioala! Nearly 100% reliable 3-turn clear!

[dondon151]

Lord Raven has a valid point with his somewhat facetious committee post because taking 1-2 extra turns on every chapter amounts to a big difference later in the game in plausible player unit levels. In the worst case scenarios, they can be like FE6 where the player can go for a 2-4 turn warpskip with a success rate of under 50% or a much longer 6-10 turn completion with a higher success rate (but still not 100%; it can be anywhere from 60-90% based on how many turns are dedicated to killing the boss).

Furthermore, resetting is not always less efficient than a slower clear. Use FE9 chapter 15 as an example. Performing a 2 turn strat twice has a 93.75% chance of at least one success (if each attempt has a 75% chance of success) while performing a 4 turn strat has a 95% chance of success. If we calculated expected values, the expected value of attempting the 2 turn clear is much less than the expected value of attempting the 4 turn clear. Furthermore, I'd say that turns 1 and 2 are shorter than turns 3 and 4 because there are fewer transformed laguz on the earlier turns and the 2 turn clear has 1 enemy phase while the 4 turn clear has 3 enemy phases.

Or if we want to take an extreme example, it's probably much faster in some games (where it exists) to repeatedly do "warp bosskiller to boss, warp lord to seize" with like a 12% chance at winning the boss battle than to play through the entire chapter. Another point in favor of the fast completion is that there are fewer uncontrolled variables and the player can just autopilot through the actions instead of having to think about enemy positions.

Edited September 16, 2011 by dondon151

[Radiant Dragon]

@aku chi: Ah, okay. To me it sounded like you were describing the dropped unit damaging Muarim on the Enemy Phase, then working with the flier to finish him on the next turn.