FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

I can see an argument for Rolf over Bastian. I mean, siege tome use after Chapter 24 isn't really that useful, and there's a big difference between siege tome use and Rolf's chipping; that while there's no cost to using Rolf and having him chip things, the limited number of siege tomes in the game demand that when Bastian uses that Meteor tome, Tormod/Calill/Soren must go without.

[Colonel M]

I can see an argument for Rolf over Bastian. I mean, siege tome use after Chapter 24 isn't really that useful, and there's a big difference between siege tome use and Rolf's chipping; that while there's no cost to using Rolf and having him chip things, the limited number of siege tomes in the game demand that when Bastian uses that Meteor tome, Tormod/Calill/Soren must go without.

Yeah but the issue with this argument is Bastian can still "chip" too. And Bastian's is more than likely better since he gets minor effectiveness on certain enemies like Laguz and Wyverns.

[aku chi]

Yeah but the issue with this argument is Bastian can still "chip" too. And Bastian's is more than likely better since he gets minor effectiveness on certain enemies like Laguz and Wyverns.

Wyverns are weak to bows in PoR. Rolf with the Laguz Bow covers every single weakness that Bastian can hit.

I do believe Rolf is underrated - or overhated. He has so much more availability than Bastian, he doesn't have to do much to outweigh Bastian's mediocre contributions in his chapters.

[Shadow Mir]

Wyverns are weak to bows in PoR. Rolf with the Laguz Bow covers every single weakness that Bastian can hit.

I do believe Rolf is underrated - or overhated. He has so much more availability than Bastian, he doesn't have to do much to outweigh Bastian's mediocre contributions in his chapters.

Even so, Rolf's still a black hole, needing all that babying just to give pretty much nothing in return. Also, there are only two Laguz Bows.

[Colonel M]

Wyverns are weak to bows in PoR. Rolf with the Laguz Bow covers every single weakness that Bastian can hit.

I do believe Rolf is underrated - or overhated. He has so much more availability than Bastian, he doesn't have to do much to outweigh Bastian's mediocre contributions in his chapters.

Except getting him anywhere near those things has a cost. For someone who's a self-proclaimed armchair economist, you would think I wouldn't have to point out the bloody obvious even in this scenario.

[Anouleth]

Yeah but the issue with this argument is Bastian can still "chip" too. And Bastian's is more than likely better since he gets minor effectiveness on certain enemies like Laguz and Wyverns.

Right, except that Rolf also gets effectiveness on laguz and Wyverns since he can use the Laguz Bow, and his effective bonuses are much, much bigger.

Look, Rolf only needs to be what, level 20/2 to be quite arguably comparable to Bastian (1 more attack when Rolf uses a Steel forge and Bastian a Thunder forge, but more speed and more movement and better weapon access). And there's the other 15 chapters where Rolf exists and Bastian doesn't.

Except getting him anywhere near those things has a cost. For someone who's a self-proclaimed armchair economist, you would think I wouldn't have to point out the bloody obvious even in this scenario.

I don't think it would take a significant amount of BEXP at all to see him reach 20/2 in time for Chapter 25.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Anouleth

[Snowy_One]

Besides, for that cost, there is also a benefit. Rolf isn't some 'black hole' who you dump resources into and see no tangible benefit. In fact, the three closest things to actual 'black holes' in the game are Reyson, Sothe, and Ena. Reyson's job is completely stat-independent, so throwing a load of BEXP on him is pointless, Sothe can't promote which greatly hampers his endgame potential and stealing, and Ena only has a few chapters to even exist. Rolf's benefits are just very minor, but not non-existent. Spending Bexp on him gets you basically a ranged swordsmaster who can't counter. If Rolf was a 1-ranged unit instead of a 2-ranged unit, I suspect he would be a tier or two higher easy. He is NOT a horrible unit on his own, just a costly one with one downside that some people can't stand (lack of counters).

Bastion is a late-joining unit who has only two ways to contribute, one of which is doing exactly what Rolf has been doing for the majority of the game except worse (Rolf can get decent Player Phase offense, Bastion cannot), and the other is using what is left of the siege tomes if your better sages haven't used them up already.

Also, why is it so important to push Mist up so fast? For 10 and 11 she's just going to be another staff user, 12 and 13 are too confined for her movement from a promotion to really matter, and 15 is sand. So unless having a mounted Mist on 14 is REALLY that important, I don't see why giving her BEXP early is a must.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Snowy_One

[aku chi]

Except getting him anywhere near those things has a cost. For someone who's a self-proclaimed armchair economist, you would think I wouldn't have to point out the bloody obvious even in this scenario.

Really? Have you ever run out of Laguz Bow uses (assuming you've even played this game)? The cost associated with Rolf using the Laguz Bow is minimal. On the other hand, getting him the weapon rank to wield the Laguz Bow is non-trivial. He either needs to engage in combat a few dozen times or promote.

But on the subject of veiled accusations of hypocrasy: how is it that those who profess that there is so much Bexp in this game that its use is nearly costless can make such a big fuss about using Bexp on Rolf?

[Colonel M]

It's "hypocrisy".

Right, except that Rolf also gets effectiveness on laguz and Wyverns since he can use the Laguz Bow, and his effective bonuses are much, much bigger.

Rolf has to have C Bows to use the Laguz Bow, which requires at least one of three things:

1) Train his weapon rank to D, then dump an Arms Scroll

2) Train his weapon rank to C

3) Promote him

Rolf's Bow gives him 2 WEXP he hits, and since he isn't doubling for a while, 2 is likely all he's getting. You would have to shoot the bow 35 times for Rolf to get C Bows. That may not sound like much in theory, but when most of the work is done by Paladins, he's only hitting once most of the time (well okay, there are some enemies that Rolf can double, but that's down to the Fighters on the beach and I think a Soldier he hits for 10/28 damage, which... is okay at best. Then Armor Knights, which he can't even dent). Iron Bow Forge isn't always the ideal choice, either, since that drops his WEXP gain to 1-2 (2 if he doubles).

In Chapter 10, only one Soldier has 2 AS. Armor Knights obviously are excluded because, well, they're a little too tough for him.

So this leaves two logical choices on what to do:

- We dump BEXP onto him

- We train him

Training him is borderline inefficient as it is (and why you're even suggesting him to be used is almost as shitty of an idea as using Sophia, but whatever, we'll play your game), which practically leaves BEXP. If we're dumping Marcia BEXP, like we really should, chances are we're looking at roughly 2550 BEXP, assuming it's untouched. This assumes we stealth Chapter 10, and I did not include a few random things that are a little too variable (escaping units and not deploying units in Chapter 8, since that's dependent on the player). Marcia starts at Level 5. To get her to 20/1 ASAP, that would require... about 1,883 BEXP. That leaves about 717 BEXP. That's roughly enough to leverage Rolf to Level 8, if you seriously wanted to do that.

Of course, that requires a slew of issues. We have other units such as Ike, Boyd, Oscar, and Kieran that could always use BEXP; especially Ike since his combat parameters are shaky at best, and then we have Nephenee who joins the group and always appreciates the extra padding. We probably have Jill on the way after Chapter 11, and then there's Astrid in 12 and Makalov who joins a little later. Now re-calculating what you obtain from 11 to, let's say 15. Now we have about 1400 extra, which gives us about 2,117 BEXP combining with the 717. If Jill didn't gain a level and then we plowed her to 20/1, that leaves about 670 BEXP. The remaining BEXP could take Astrid up to roughly Level 14.

Chapter 15 is where the major BEXP comes in, and that's because of the "pacifist" route giving you 1460 alone.

Now, if I can take roughly 4 units from base to 20/1, yes, there is a plentiful amount of BEXP. The issue lies that there's a huge line of units, BEFORE ROLF, that can use it better. Rolf's bow damage towards flying units may help a little, but it takes a slew of effort for little gain. If Rolf were miraculously to make to Level 11 by Chapter 12, he still does... 14-15 damage on Ravens with his bow. I guess that could be argued better than some units, but also consider he can't counter from one-range and dies anyway. I guess being able to snipe it helps... but the map can be cleared even without his help.

Flying-units, that leaves about... Chapter 13's Ravens, which I guess I can count as "fair enough", there's 2 Wyvern Riders in 17-2, 2 Wyvern Knights in 18 with some Ravens, 2 Wyvern Knights and a Lord in 19. It's not until Chapter 20 where Wyverns are even that "common". It's usually Ravens, which are too fast to double and Rolf is likely failing ORKOes constantly unless you pour a shitload of BEXP into him.

And all for what? Something mediocre.

I mean for fucks sake, I would give Soren and Ilyana BEXP before Rolf, and I consider them the bottom of the barrel. You have your slew of Paladins that can use it, your two flying units that can transform into Gods with it, take something mediocre like Tormod, Nephenee, Mia, Zihark, Soren, and Ilyana into competent combatants, and can give a small incentive to just leaving Ike alone for the most part until Chapter 18 (well he might need a few levels tops and obviously he's going to gain some throughout the course of the game). Then you have units like Titania who want to stay on top of their game and can always use a smidgeon of the stuff or two. Don't forget Mist, who would like the horse as soon as possible.

Okay, Rolf exists for 15 chapters more than Bastian. What is Rolf doing aside from blowing BEXP into a shitty unit and constantly shooting ourselves in the abdomen?

I don't think it would take a significant amount of BEXP at all to see him reach 20/2 in time for Chapter 25.

If you never touched Rolf, it would take 2185 BEXP to get to 20/1. That does include the 20 -> Promotion. I honestly don't think Rolf is gaining that many levels on his own without any help either (don't even try arguing something ridiculous like 10 Rolf).

Really? Have you ever run out of Laguz Bow uses (assuming you've even played this game)? The cost associated with Rolf using the Laguz Bow is minimal

If you really thought that I was talking about the Laguz Bow of all things, which only has roughly one competent user with it (Astrid), I think you definitely fell off your rocker.

No, the answer was towards dumping a shitload of BEXP that can be used by other units that have (likely) better results before Rolf, not to mention the possible extreme cost associated with it.

I mean, christ, you're talking about a unit that costs about 3 kiloMias worth of resources over a unit that doesn't really have that much of a cost to him. Okay, so Lyre is available more in Radiant Dawn than Bastian. Am I going to suddenly argue Lyre > Bastian just because, with the same arguments being used here, that I can dump a shitload of resources and make her good? Here, watch this:

- 1 Seraph Robe

- 3 Energy Drop

- 2 Speedwings

- 3 Dracoshields

Base Lyre after stat boosters - 54 HP | 13 Str | 15 Spd | 13 Def

Base Ranulf - 55 HP | 14 Str | 15 Spd | 13 Def

Ta-da, look what I just made, and she has more levels to grow!

Edited May 8, 2012 by Colonel M

[Snowy_One]

Now, if I can take roughly 4 units from base to 20/1, yes, there is a plentiful amount of BEXP. The issue lies that there's a huge line of units, BEFORE ROLF, that can use it better.

Isn't there a rule, or at least a guideline, about not denying resources to a unit just because another unit can use it better? And before you start, no. I stated that Bastion's siege utility was pointless because there were up to four other sages who could also preform it and had been around for longer and had better stats and that the situation where you would need more than two units siegeing at once were limited at best, not that he should be denied resources or have it held against him.

Also, in your Lyre example you are giving her an excessive amount of limited items to make her comparable where as with Rolf we are giving him some BEXP (not even as much as the other units in your examples) to get started and allow his contribution.

[Colonel M]

Isn't there a rule, or at least a guideline, about not denying resources to a unit just because another unit can use it better? And before you start, no. I stated that Bastion's siege utility was pointless because there were up to four other sages who could also preform it and had been around for longer and had better stats and that the situation where you would need more than two units siegeing at once were limited at best, not that he should be denied resources or have it held against him.

You could basically replace "Bastian" with "Rolf", "siege utility" with "anything", and "four other sages" with "anyone", and thus have the other counterargument. Well, scrap the "two units sieging at once were" and replace it with "an Archer not on a horse is". Nuke the final starting at "not that he".

e where as with Rolf we are giving him some BEXP (not even as much as the other units in your examples) to get started and allow his contribution.

Start naming benchmarks with Rolf. Here's your 8 Rolf:

7.8 Str | 9.5 Spd

Rolf's Bow - 15.8 Atk, 9.5 Spd

Iron Bow Forge - 18.8 Atk, 9.5 Spd

Let's see what this does in Chapter 11, shall we!

Hey look, he ORKOes Myrmidons and Fighters! Oh whoops, too bad they're just the Vigilantes. Silly me!

- Does 3-4 damage on the Cavaliers. The lowest AS is 6. With the forge, he does about 8 damage tops. Unless he doubles the one.

- Thunks Armor Knights. Well, Iron Bow forge can do... double... 1s and 2s.

- 14-16 damage on Soldiers out of 26/28 HP. This is probably the only time he does something "significant". The Soldiers have 1 & 3 AS. The Iron Bow forge still misses ORKOes.

- 10 damage to the Myrmidons and Mages. Make it about 14 tops with Str proc'd and Iron Bow forge.

- 12 damage to the Priests. Up that to 16 with Str proc'd and Iron Bow forge.

- Gets doubled by Mackoya.

So. Fucking. Intense! SHOW ME MORE ROLF!

Here's 10 Rolf:

8.6 Str | 10.5 Spd

Rolf Bow - 16.6 Atk | 10.5 Spd

Iron Bow forge - 19.6 Atk | 10.5 Spd

- Well at least now he can double that one 6 AS Cavalier. For 10 damage. If he's lucky on Spd, he can get 3 more Cavaliers that have 7 AS. With the Iron Bow forge and a Str proc... it makes it to about 18 damage. It's not bad I guess. But it's only on 4 Cavaliers.

- Thank Cob. He can finally dent Armor Knights! Someone call Guinness! Oh wait no he can't, silly me! *snickers*. Well he can on the Iron Bow anyway. For about 8 damage tops.

- He can now kill the Level 9 Soldier... and two Myrmidons.

10 Rolf takes about 841 BEXP. Now let's use the same BEXP on Kieran who's Level 12 for example... who I could project to Level 18:

14 Str | 14.4 Spd

Iron Axe forge - 27 Atk | 14.4 AS

- ORKOes all the Cavaliers.

- ORKOes Armor Knights with Hammer (14-6=8, max AS on AKs is 4).

- Can OHKO a Mage.

Should I continue or...?

Edited May 8, 2012 by Colonel M

[Snowy_One]

You could basically replace "Bastian" with "Rolf", "siege utility" with "anything", and "four other sages" with "anyone", and thus have the other counterargument. Well, scrap the "two units sieging at once were" and replace it with "an Archer not on a horse is".

I could do that and also replace 'Rolf' with any unit not in the top two or three tiers and have a justification as to why they should be in the bottom. Oh. And FYI, Bastion's speed will always suck, while Rolf can at least manage some semi-decent. In fact, Rolf's stats are comparable to Astrid's (nearly identical at 20/10) when at equal levels. Sure, she'll have a higher level for most of the game, has axes after promotion, and mounted movement, but when I compared the two side by side, I actually had to look up at the web address when switching tabs to remember which was which twice as the two were very similar stats-wise.

Start naming benchmarks with Rolf. Here's your 8 Rolf:

7.8 Str | 9.5 Spd

Rolf's Bow - 15.8 Atk, 9.5 Spd

Let's see what this does in Chapter 11, shall we!

Hey look, he ORKOes Myrmidons and Fighters! Oh whoops, too bad they're just the Vigilantes. Silly me!

- Does 3-4 damage on the Cavaliers. The lowest AS is 6.

- Thunks Armor Knights.

- 14-16 damage on Soldiers out of 26/28 HP. This is probably the only time he does something "significant". The Soldiers have 1 & 3 AS.

- 10 damage to the Myrmidons and Mages.

- 12 damage to the Priests.

- Gets doubled by Mackoya.

So. Fucking. Intense! SHOW ME MORE ROLF!

I find it funny that you felt the inclination to make his attack a non-.5 decimal point, but then listed his damage in whole numbers. Regardless...

Remind me when I said Rolf's offense early on was good? What's that? You can't? Because I'm not a big enough idiot to claim a growth unit is A-okay right off the bat and said that the BEXP was mainly to get him started on contributions? Because I'm not looking to compare him to high-end tier units who just had a load of BEXP dropped on them like you seem to be used to doing?

Edited May 8, 2012 by Snowy_One

[Anouleth]

If Rolf was a 1-ranged unit instead of a 2-ranged unit, I suspect he would be a tier or two higher easy. He is NOT a horrible unit on his own, just a costly one with one downside that some people can't stand (lack of counters).

If he's costly with a major downside, then he is a horrible unit. I might as well say that Bastian isn't horrible, just a unit with one downside (availability).

Bastion is a late-joining unit who has only two ways to contribute, one of which is doing exactly what Rolf has been doing for the majority of the game except worse (Rolf can get decent Player Phase offense, Bastion cannot), and the other is using what is left of the siege tomes if your better sages haven't used them up already.

I agree with this except your misspelling of Bastian.

It's "hypocrisy".

Rolf has to have C Bows to use the Laguz Bow, which requires at least one of three things:

1) Train his weapon rank to D, then dump an Arms Scroll

2) Train his weapon rank to C

3) Promote him

Rolf's Bow gives him 2 WEXP he hits, and since he isn't doubling for a while, 2 is likely all he's getting. You would have to shoot the bow 35 times for Rolf to get C Bows. That may not sound like much in theory, but when most of the work is done by Paladins, he's only hitting once most of the time (well okay, there are some enemies that Rolf can double, but that's down to the Fighters on the beach and I think a Soldier he hits for 10/28 damage, which... is okay at best. Then Armor Knights, which he can't even dent). Iron Bow Forge isn't always the ideal choice, either, since that drops his WEXP gain to 1-2 (2 if he doubles).

It's irrelevant. Even if Rolf somehow isn't promoted by Chapter 25

Training him is borderline inefficient as it is (and why you're even suggesting him to be used is almost as shitty of an idea as using Sophia, but whatever, we'll play your game)

Apparently, my playthrough is inefficient then. So what kind of target is the tier list going for then? sub 155 turns? sub 150?

Okay, Rolf exists for 15 chapters more than Bastian. What is Rolf doing aside from blowing BEXP into a shitty unit and constantly shooting ourselves in the abdomen?

Oh, just shut up. We get it. Rolf is bad. I am not denying that he's bad. The question is whether he is worse than Bastian. And no, he isn't. Bastian does nothing for those fifteen chapters. Rolf chips. Chipping is better than nothing.

Rolf does not magically suck up BEXP. He is not some vampire that steals into the BEXP tent after hours and gorges himself on delicious game abstractions. This is as ridiculous as ye olden days where people would say that Jeigans "hog EXP". The only BEXP that Rolf takes is the BEXP you give him. And you don't have to give him ANY if you don't want to.

If you never touched Rolf, it would take 2185 BEXP to get to 20/1. That does include the 20 -> Promotion. I honestly don't think Rolf is gaining that many levels on his own without any help either (don't even try arguing something ridiculous like 10 Rolf).

Oh, yeah, I'm seriously suggesting that we literally never use Rolf until Chapter 25 and then give him 2185 BEXP.

Speaking as someone who has actually used Rolf, he does not need /that/ much BEXP. He needs a lot, that's true, but he can gain a decent amount of CEXP on his own. Level 10 is certainly within his reach by Chapter 25. And definitely level 20. I think you are believing your own hyperbole. Rolf is bad. But he is not unusable by any stretch of the word.

[Colonel M]

Then you better start naming when we're using Rolf and what not. If you can't even buy his use by Chapter 11, for instance, that's already part of his "availability" lead lost in the void.

I could do that and also replace 'Rolf' with any unit not in the top two or three tiers and have a justification as to why they should be in the bottom.

It's kind of shocking how this hasn't been done to begin with, but the main reason I argue it is the circumstance the game throws at you. Since we're arguing efficiency, BEXPing anyone not named Marcia at first is kind of a bad idea. And I also named what I could do with Rolf's BEXP into other units. Sure, we can leave Kieran at base and he's okay, but why do that when I could put said BEXP into Kieran and have him steamroll Chapter 11 without an issue? And that's with the same BEXP given to Rolf from 1-10.

Kieran isn't the only example. Let's take your favorite unit into account. Mia or Soren Ilyana? Hmm..

Let's start with Mia first. 841 BEXP to give out. Mia starts at Level 6, so assuming she's never been touched once... that shoots her to Level 14.

14 Mia - 10.2 Str | 17.8 Spd

Iron Sword forge - 20.2 Atk, 17.8 AS

- She'll do about 14-16 damage, much like Rolf does on these things. Except, well, she doubles all of the Cavaliers.

- 14 damage at minimum against Armor Knights.

- Fails to ORKO the Level 9 Soldier, sadly.

- But she does ORKO the Myrmidons and the Mages. Even the Thieves.

- 14 damage on Mackoya. Well, it's more than Rolf can do honestly.

Ah, but she can also have a C Rhys! Add 2 more damage for shits and giggles.

Now for Ilyana... she's also Level 6, so that can make her to Level 14.

12 Mag | 11.4 Spd

Thunder forge - 21 Atk

- She doubles at least 3 of the Cavaliers and easily ORKOes them. The rest that can't be doubled she cooks them for about 17 damage.

- Armor Knights are ORKOed, as are Soldiers and the Myrmidons. I think at least one of the Thieves are OHKOed.

I mean, they don't exactly scream that much better (especially Mia, but in return she can usually damage more than one enemy per turn), but still. Why must we keep going with this? If that's the case, answer these questions for me.

1) How much BEXP are we giving Rolf?

2) Up to what level? And, finally

3) What chapter?

Start shoveling answers. Pronto.

Apparently, my playthrough is inefficient then. So what kind of target is the tier list going for then? sub 155 turns? sub 150?

That's irrelevant. The point isn't what the suboptimal turncount is, it's if Rolf is contributing anything positive efficiency-wise aside from "chipping", which is almost as sickening as hearing it from Grandjackal.

Oh, just shut up. We get it. Rolf is bad. I am not denying that he's bad. The question is whether he is worse than Bastian. And no, he isn't. Bastian does nothing for those fifteen chapters. Rolf chips. Chipping is better than nothing.

Okay, watch this.

- Wendy chips a wall in Chapter 8.

- Sophia can chip a Wyvern Rider in her joining Chapter.

- Douglas comes late just like Bastian.

Therefore, Wendy and Sophia > Douglas, right? At least, if we're speaking strictly on chipping something.

Rolf does not magically suck up BEXP. He is not some vampire that steals into the BEXP tent after hours and gorges himself on delicious game abstractions. This is as ridiculous as ye olden days where people would say that Jeigans "hog EXP". The only BEXP that Rolf takes is the BEXP you give him. And you don't have to give him ANY if you don't want to.

Then please, for the love of flying fuck, tell me what the "benchmark" is.

This also is a different statement from "ye olden days", as we'll call it. Jeigans may have hogged EXP, but they also contributed towards an efficient playthrough at little to no cost at base. You hand them their weapon, they go to town, and in some cases might hit the bench later. Rolf doesn't have that option really.

Oh, yeah, I'm seriously suggesting that we literally never use Rolf until Chapter 25 and then give him 2185 BEXP.

Okay, shut up. I never even suggested that Rolf would use it until Chapter 25. Name the chapter. No, really, name the fucking chapter when you can do it.

Speaking as someone who has actually used Rolf, he does not need /that/ much BEXP. He needs a lot, that's true, but he can gain a decent amount of CEXP on his own. Level 10 is certainly within his reach by Chapter 25. And definitely level 20. I think you are believing your own hyperbole. Rolf is bad. But he is not unusable by any stretch of the word.

1) Obviously, any unit can reach that level by that point. Wendy could even reach Level 10 by the time we recruit Douglas if we wanted to.

2) Bastian also isn't unusable by any stretch of the word, and doesn't cost a single BEXP point to do so.

If you're going to present a legitimate argument on Bastian < Rolf, do me one favor, and one favor only:

Don't use "chip" as your argument. Then, I won't be so dismissive to your argument and I'll actually look at this argument seriously instead of some benign troll parade.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Colonel M

[Anouleth]

Then you better start naming when we're using Rolf and what not. If you can't even buy his use by Chapter 11, for instance, that's already part of his "availability" lead lost in the void.

It's kind of shocking how this hasn't been done to begin with, but the main reason I argue it is the circumstance the game throws at you. Since we're arguing efficiency, BEXPing anyone not named Marcia at first is kind of a bad idea. And I also named what I could do with Rolf's BEXP into other units. Sure, we can leave Kieran at base and he's okay, but why do that when I could put said BEXP into Kieran and have him steamroll Chapter 11 without an issue? And that's with the same BEXP given to Rolf from 1-10.

Kieran isn't the only example. Let's take your favorite unit into account. Mia or Soren Ilyana? Hmm..

Let's start with Mia first. 841 BEXP to give out. Mia starts at Level 6, so assuming she's never been touched once... that shoots her to Level 14.

14 Mia - 10.2 Str | 17.8 Spd

Iron Sword forge - 20.2 Atk, 17.8 AS

- She'll do about 14-16 damage, much like Rolf does on these things. Except, well, she doubles all of the Cavaliers.

- 14 damage at minimum against Armor Knights.

- Fails to ORKO the Level 9 Soldier, sadly.

- But she does ORKO the Myrmidons and the Mages. Even the Thieves.

- 14 damage on Mackoya. Well, it's more than Rolf can do honestly.

Ah, but she can also have a C Rhys! Add 2 more damage for shits and giggles.

Now for Ilyana... she's also Level 6, so that can make her to Level 14.

12 Mag | 11.4 Spd

Thunder forge - 21 Atk

- She doubles at least 3 of the Cavaliers and easily ORKOes them. The rest that can't be doubled she cooks them for about 17 damage.

- Armor Knights are ORKOed, as are Soldiers and the Myrmidons. I think at least one of the Thieves are OHKOed.

I mean, they don't exactly scream that much better (especially Mia, but in return she can usually damage more than one enemy per turn), but still. Why must we keep going with this? If that's the case, answer these questions for me.

1) How much BEXP are we giving Rolf?

2) Up to what level? And, finally

3) What chapter?

Start shoveling answers. Pronto.

That's irrelevant. The point isn't what the suboptimal turncount is, it's if Rolf is contributing anything positive efficiency-wise aside from "chipping", which is almost as sickening as hearing it from Grandjackal.

No. He's an archer, after all. He's somewhat limited to either chipping enemies at range or killing enemies at range, and he's certainly not going to do much of the second.

And pray tell; what does Bastian do if not "chipping"?

Okay, watch this.

- Wendy chips a wall in Chapter 8.

- Sophia can chip a Wyvern Rider in her joining Chapter.

- Douglas comes late just like Bastian.

Therefore, Wendy and Sophia > Douglas, right? At least, if we're speaking strictly on chipping something.

Except that it's far easier to train Rolf than Wendy (Rolf has more viable movement, far better 2-range and at least he can damage enemies even if it's for poor damage. He also gets 1-rounded less and is far more accurate). And also Sophia. And while Rolf definitely beats Bastian if you expend even the slightest effort in training him, the same is not true for Wendy and Douglas, with 10/1 Wendy getting the snot kicked out of her by base Douglas (he has 8 more strength, far better weapon ranks and way more durability. Wendy has a little bit of speed but still won't double anything). Sophia has literally all of three chapters to try and scrape together levels before Douglas shows up. And unlike in FE9, both Sophia and Wendy have to pay for their promotion items.

This also is a different statement from "ye olden days", as we'll call it. Jeigans may have hogged EXP, but they also contributed towards an efficient playthrough at little to no cost at base. You hand them their weapon, they go to town, and in some cases might hit the bench later. Rolf doesn't have that option really.

You misunderstand. The same fallacy is at play in both situations. Jeigans do not hog exp. It is true that when they kill an enemy, the exp cannot go to another unit, but this is a trivial description since that is true of all units in every Fire Emblem.

Okay, shut up. I never even suggested that Rolf would use it until Chapter 25. Name the chapter. No, really, name the fucking chapter when you can do it.

There is no point. You would never dump 2185 BEXP into Rolf.

1) Obviously, any unit can reach that level by that point. Wendy could even reach Level 10 by the time we recruit Douglas if we wanted to.

Uh, I doubt it. When she's getting ORKOed and does virtually no damage and struggles to reach enemies or even hit them. You must be nuts if you seriously think Wendy is as easy to train as Rolf, since you are saying that Wendy can gain 9 levels in 9 chapters but Rolf cannot gain 19 levels in 17 chapters, one of which is a four-parter.

And also even if Wendy does reach level 10/1 and we shell out for her Knight Crest bling, Douglas still beats her.

[Dark Sage]

Let's see if I got this whole thing right:

Rolf is made redundant by every single unit in the game and steals large amounts of BEXP we could've given to get a hotshot Marica = sweet man.

Bastian's siege toming is made redundant by 3-4 people we may or may not be using = douchebag

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dark Sage

[Anouleth]

Let's see if I got this whole thing right:

Rolf is made redundant by every single unit in the game and steals large amounts of BEXP we could've given to get a hotshot Marica = sweet man.

I trained Rolf and I had a hotshot Marcia.

Bastian's siege toming is made redundant by 3-4 people we may or may not be using = douchebag

Are you so stupid as to not realise the obvious difference; that while we will want many dedicated combat units, we only need one siege tome user?

[Dark Sage]

Are you so stupid as to not realise the obvious difference; that while we will want many dedicated combat units, we only need one siege tome user?

Of course I do. The thing about Bastian is that while we do only need one siege tome user, the rest may not be guaranteed to be in play. In Rolf's case, everyone who does make him redundant (nearly everybody else) are always in play, so it's a little weird to still hype him up, especially when he costs BEXP and Bastian doesn't.

But maybe we are assuming one siege tome user is being used, in which case, I could see Rolf>Bastian since the only argument Bastian has over Rolf at that point is not needing BEXP.

[Lord Raven]

let's be honest now, rolf's potshots and bastians potshots are both pretty terrible, but at least bastian requires no effort for ineffective output whereas rolf requires some effort for pretty overall ineffective output

[Anouleth]

let's be honest now, rolf's potshots and bastians potshots are both pretty terrible, but at least bastian requires no effort for ineffective output whereas rolf requires some effort for pretty overall ineffective output

Are you talking about in the sense of physical time? Because certainly, even assuming deployment for Rolf, a speedrun or TAS might very well choose not to move him and have him act under the basis that the benefit of his combat performance is not worth the time to move him and watch his animation.

[Lord Raven]

what are you even talking about

[Colonel M]

No. He's an archer, after all. He's somewhat limited to either chipping enemies at range or killing enemies at range, and he's certainly not going to do much of the second.

And pray tell; what does Bastian do if not "chipping"?

The issue boils down to this: both of their "chips" are still different. Yes, they are still likely damaging units more than killing (just like you noted with Rolf). The key difference is that Bastian can actually kill things or come damn near close with maybe a forge tops. While the number of units he doubles is few, he still can, and sometimes will, kill enemies.

Now, I obviously realize that Bastian really isn't that good. Yet, to be fair, you didn't have to put up with any suck to get to where Bastian is. The same with Rolf, but Rolf's "chips" are like the crumbles in the bag. They're almost insignificant. Almost. I have had an issue or two with ORKOing enemies in Rolf's joining chapter, for example, but to be fair it was when I was half-assing the game and used just about everyone in Hard Mode. I think one of my units got screwed too (I think Oscar IIRC).

Also, once again, Bastian can still use siege tomes. Considering that the only Mage at base that can use them well is Callil, and it kind of helps his case. Not completely, since it is true you can probably make Tormod swallow BEXP to do it too (and Arms Scrolls), but that sort of hurts Rolf's case too since that means more BEXP probably lost in the void.

Except that it's far easier to train Rolf than Wendy (Rolf has more viable movement, far better 2-range and at least he can damage enemies even if it's for poor damage. He also gets 1-rounded less and is far more accurate). And also Sophia. And while Rolf definitely beats Bastian if you expend even the slightest effort in training him, the same is not true for Wendy and Douglas, with 10/1 Wendy getting the snot kicked out of her by base Douglas (he has 8 more strength, far better weapon ranks and way more durability. Wendy has a little bit of speed but still won't double anything). Sophia has literally all of three chapters to try and scrape together levels before Douglas shows up. And unlike in FE9, both Sophia and Wendy have to pay for their promotion items.

Let's start from the top. The main reason wasn't even close to them "promoting". Nonsense, this was based solely on "chipping something", much like the Rolf argument. Both of these units can chip, correct? Just like Rolf can also chip. Obviously, they have major differences (two don't exist in a game where BEXP is around), but Douglas is still over them for more reasons than he can simply "chip" better and greater availability. They both also have piss poor combat parameters otherwise and contribute little-to-nothing in an efficient run.

How this bounces back to Rolf vs. Bastian is that you're arguing Rolf partially on him being able to "chip". Just like I can have Rolf "chip" a unit and climb to promoted status, I can do it with Wendy. Wendy can very likely be higher than 10/1 by the time we arrive with Douglas if we're doing it right (and Axe rank is barely relevant anyway).

You can replace Wendy with Wolt if you want even, who is currently below Douglas in FE6's tier list.

Which is why I'm asking for you to argue something other than "chip". Almost any unit can theoretically "chip" something before another unit that is available than another unit, but it still means little-to-nothing at the end of the day.

Also, Rolf still has to "pay" for his promotion item, just not by monetary means (BEXP or CEXP). If we want to get technical, Sophia finds a Guiding Ring for free. It has a cost, yes, but so does said BEXP and CEXP. Hence, there's still a "payment".

You misunderstand. The same fallacy is at play in both situations. Jeigans do not hog exp. It is true that when they kill an enemy, the exp cannot go to another unit, but this is a trivial description since that is true of all units in every Fire Emblem.

The issue boils down is that I can apply it to more than BEXP and CEXP. Rolf is technically not a "black hole", so to speak, with BEXP. Yes, with BEXP Rolf can make a contribution. Yet, so can almost anyone else is the main point.

All units have a cost associated with them no matter what, whether it boils down to deployment slots, turns, kills, CEXP, SEXP (Staff EXP for the perverts), BEXP, weapons, items, positions, skills, class, etc. Obviously, we try to take them with some leniency into account, as otherwise we would have a "Use", "Don't Use", "Maybe Use" tier list. It can be done, of course, kind of like how dondon151 made it with, but even his tier list had some leniency behind it.

Point of the matter is, Rolf does not "hog" BEXP. Rolf "wants" BEXP like many other units, and wants CEXP like many other units. We don't give BEXP to Rolf and suddenly bench him for the rest of the game. If we're putting BEXP into Rolf for some strange reason, chances are we're at least trying to use him. The question is very simple: does his cost outweigh his benefits enough to lever himself above Bastian who has little-to-no cost. To you, it's "yes". To me, it's "no".

There is no point. You would never dump 2185 BEXP into Rolf.

Of course not, you would (likely) use some BEXP and have Rolf get the rest through CEXP or something. I mostly blame Snowy_One here for making your argument seem a little more "crippled" because I actually proposed an example to which he had no real counter other than "Remind me when I said Rolf's offense early on was good? What's that? You can't? Because I'm not a big enough idiot to claim a growth unit is A-okay right off the bat and said that the BEXP was mainly to get him started on contributions? Because I'm not looking to compare him to high-end tier units who just had a load of BEXP dropped on them like you seem to be used to doing?" which might as well be interpreted as "I concede I'm just too butthurt to admit it".

That's why I'm actually asking you, if you /seriously/ used Rolf, what exactly you did to get him to at least "mediocrity" and thus evaluate the situation thereafter. We're obviously combining BEXP and CEXP on Rolf since having him do solely one of the other is almost as absurd as Snowy's arguments.

Uh, I doubt it. When she's getting ORKOed and does virtually no damage and struggles to reach enemies or even hit them. You must be nuts if you seriously think Wendy is as easy to train as Rolf, since you are saying that Wendy can gain 9 levels in 9 chapters but Rolf cannot gain 19 levels in 17 chapters, one of which is a four-parter.

And also even if Wendy does reach level 10/1 and we shell out for her Knight Crest bling, Douglas still beats her.

Of course I'm not completely denying Rolf getting to 20/1 alone on CEXP by 17 chapters, but then if his contribution was nothing more but the crumbles in my Pringles can, it doesn't really equate to anything, if at all. Even Wendy can hit 10/1 before we hit Douglas. Then again, Wendy sucks so much that obviously she isn't worth bothering. Yet in the same vein... it almost, and I hint almost, can be argued with Rolf. Even if you use Wolt as an example, Wolt can reach 20/1 before we hit Douglas. Does it really matter though? Not really.

Are you talking about in the sense of physical time? Because certainly, even assuming deployment for Rolf, a speedrun or TAS might very well choose not to move him and have him act under the basis that the benefit of his combat performance is not worth the time to move him and watch his animation.

What?

Edited May 8, 2012 by Colonel M

[Anouleth]

The issue boils down to this: both of their "chips" are still different. Yes, they are still likely damaging units more than killing (just like you noted with Rolf). The key difference is that Bastian can actually kill things or come damn near close with maybe a forge tops. While the number of units he doubles is few, he still can, and sometimes will, kill enemies.

Right, and Rolf kills more enemies and doubles more enemies and also has better movement.

Versus Cats (Elfire/Laguz Bow)

Bastian

20 damage (3HKO)

Rolf

18 damage (3HKO)

Versus Warriors (Thunder Forge/Steel Forge)

Bastian

21x2 damage (3HKO) (doesn't always double)

Rolf

18x2 damage (3HKO)

Versus Snipers

Bastian

18 damage (2HKO)

Rolf

16 damage (2HKO)

Versus Halberdiers

Bastian

20 damage (2HKO)

Rolf

17x2 damage (3HKO)

And Sages, Ravens, Bishops, Rolf obviously wins by a mile. And Rolf also has the crit boost so sometimes he will crit where Bastian would not, which is important when they don't ORKO anything. And the movement advantage. And Brave Bow access.

Now, I obviously realize that Bastian really isn't that good. Yet, to be fair, you didn't have to put up with any suck to get to where Bastian is.

Except that I do not lose anything by "putting up" with Rolf. He is not going to magically suck up BEXP, or cockblock me when I clumsily seduce Kieran. In fact, I gain because he chips and weakens enemies. An infinitesimal gain, perhaps, but it's not a cost.

The same with Rolf, but Rolf's "chips" are like the crumbles in the bag. They're almost insignificant. Almost. I have had an issue or two with ORKOing enemies in Rolf's joining chapter, for example, but to be fair it was when I was half-assing the game and used just about everyone in Hard Mode. I think one of my units got screwed too (I think Oscar IIRC).

And Bastian's Chapter 9 performance is actually insignificant because it's not a thing.

Also, once again, Bastian can still use siege tomes. Considering that the only Mage at base that can use them well is Callil, and it kind of helps his case.

What do you mean by "well"? Since Tormod has better range with them, every mage has better attack with them. I guess he's faster with them with Soren, so he can have that solace.

Not completely, since it is true you can probably make Tormod swallow BEXP to do it too (and Arms Scrolls), but that sort of hurts Rolf's case too since that means more BEXP probably lost in the void.

Well apparently he will never ever get any BEXP anyway, so I hardly think it matters. I know just how futile it is to argue for any conceivable resource for a unit in lower mid or below, so I'm not even going to bother arguing for BEXP.

Although I also used Tormod in my Rolf-using playthrough, so it's not like we can't have our cake, eat it, and hollow it out into a summer home all at once.

Let's start from the top. The main reason wasn't even close to them "promoting". Nonsense, this was based solely on "chipping something", much like the Rolf argument. Both of these units can chip, correct? Just like Rolf can also chip. Obviously, they have major differences (two don't exist in a game where BEXP is around), but Douglas is still over them for more reasons than he can simply "chip" better and greater availability. They both also have piss poor combat parameters otherwise and contribute little-to-nothing in an efficient run.

Sounds a hell of a lot like Douglas to me, so I have no idea where you're going with this. Plus, I don't think your tier list assumes deployment, but I think this one does.

How this bounces back to Rolf vs. Bastian is that you're arguing Rolf partially on him being able to "chip". Just like I can have Rolf "chip" a unit and climb to promoted status, I can do it with Wendy. Wendy can very likely be higher than 10/1 by the time we arrive with Douglas if we're doing it right (and Axe rank is barely relevant anyway).

Rolf's chip is fairly infinitesimal in utility, but it's an adequate tiebreaker for two units who are pretty damn similar for their shared lifespan. Plus, even if Wendy chips that Chapter 8 wall, that's not going to catapult her to level 10. You need to chip lots of enemies, and Wendy simply can't.

You can replace Wendy with Wolt if you want even, who is currently below Douglas in FE6's tier list.

Wolt is probably a fairer argument, but Wolt's chip damage is actually pretty significant.

Which is why I'm asking for you to argue something other than "chip". Almost any unit can theoretically "chip" something before another unit that is available than another unit, but it still means little-to-nothing at the end of the day.

Okay, chip damage before Bastian exists and just being plain better after Bastian exists.

Also, Rolf still has to "pay" for his promotion item, just not by monetary means (BEXP or CEXP). If we want to get technical, Sophia finds a Guiding Ring for free. It has a cost, yes, but so does said BEXP and CEXP. Hence, there's still a "payment".

If Rolf goes up and chips an enemy that was going to die anyway, then that does not cost anything except for a negligible amount of money to pay for his weapon, and a moment of our time (worthless). If he is somehow taking kills, that rather puts a hole in your refrain of Rolf being completely useless and unable to do anything in a world of ORKOing God-Paladins.

The issue boils down is that I can apply it to more than BEXP and CEXP. Rolf is technically not a "black hole", so to speak, with BEXP. Yes, with BEXP Rolf can make a contribution. Yet, so can almost anyone else is the main point.

I don't think I've even suggested giving Rolf BEXP. In fact, I have taken great pains to suggest he's not. If he does, training him becomes almost trivial. I had him promoted in midgame; let alone by the time Bastian joins.

All units have a cost associated with them no matter what, whether it boils down to deployment slots, turns, kills, CEXP, SEXP (Staff EXP for the perverts), BEXP, weapons, items, positions, skills, class, etc. Obviously, we try to take them with some leniency into account, as otherwise we would have a "Use", "Don't Use", "Maybe Use" tier list. It can be done, of course, kind of like how dondon151 made it with, but even his tier list had some leniency behind it.

Nope. Just not true! One could easily conceive of a unit who had no cost. Like, say, FE7 Merlinus.

Point of the matter is, Rolf does not "hog" BEXP. Rolf "wants" BEXP like many other units, and wants CEXP like many other units. We don't give BEXP to Rolf and suddenly bench him for the rest of the game. If we're putting BEXP into Rolf for some strange reason, chances are we're at least trying to use him. The question is very simple: does his cost outweigh his benefits enough to lever himself above Bastian who has little-to-no cost. To you, it's "yes". To me, it's "no".

Except that even if you don't give Rolf BEXP, ever, he is still strictly >= Bastian because he has 15 chapters of chipping and then both of them exist and hey Rolf is better.

That's why I'm actually asking you, if you /seriously/ used Rolf, what exactly you did to get him to at least "mediocrity" and thus evaluate the situation thereafter. We're obviously combining BEXP and CEXP on Rolf since having him do solely one of the other is almost as absurd as Snowy's arguments.

I believe I gave him about 1k of BEXP over earlygame and midgame. He was promoted in the Chapter 17 base.

Of course I'm not completely denying Rolf getting to 20/1 alone on CEXP by 17 chapters, but then if his contribution was nothing more but the crumbles in my Pringles can, it doesn't really equate to anything, if at all.

It's greater than or equal to zero. And Bastian is hardly better than a 20/2 Rolf.

Even Wendy can hit 10/1 before we hit Douglas. Then again, Wendy sucks so much that obviously she isn't worth bothering. Yet in the same vein... it almost, and I hint almost, can be argued with Rolf. Even if you use Wolt as an example, Wolt can reach 20/1 before we hit Douglas. Does it really matter though? Not really.

If it's the case that Wolt can do that without incurring any significant costs and in a reasonable time frame and there's consensus that 20/1 Wolt is better than base Douglas, then yes, Wolt should absolutely be above Douglas.

I think we can secretly call this as a conceding line. He didn't even mention physical time nor even hinted it.

How would you define "effort"? Work done? Calories expended? Buttons pressed?

[Colonel M]

In that case, I argue Boyd > Kieran.

Boyd is around longer than Kieran and can always "chip" a unit at least once every chapter.

See I can make retarded devil's advocate arguments too. Not like it matters, since the only thing you're arguing is that Rolf's shit for chip is better than a unit that still costs a forge at most.

Oh yeah, that Brave Bow. If we're denying Bastian his siege tomes, I see no reason why I can allow Rolf to have either the Laguz Bow or the Brave Bow. Or any weapon. Since, well, Astrid and Shinon can use those bows too!

Except that I do not lose anything by "putting up" with Rolf. He is not going to magically suck up BEXP, or cockblock me when I clumsily seduce Kieran. In fact, I gain because he chips and weakens enemies. An infinitesimal gain, perhaps, but it's not a cost.

Sure you did. You lost time putting up with Rolf. If we're accounting for chip being the main reason I can raise Rolf, why not penalize him for the amount of time I have to move him to do little-to-nothing while I'm at it!

And Bastian's Chapter 9 performance is actually insignificant because it's not a thing.

I can make Rolf's Chapter 9 performance insignificant too.

Here, let me just accidentally toss his Bow. Or shove him in a corner. Or have someone carry him! Hey, I'll let Titania carry him! That way the enemies will be kept alive and there's CEXP for everyone!

What do you mean by "well"? Since Tormod has better range with them, every mage has better attack with them. I guess he's faster with them with Soren, so he can have that solace.

Ah, but Tormod doesn't exist early enough! What about Soren and Ilyana!?! They exist much earlier than Tormod, and they chip for a longer time too!

I guess I'm arguing Soren and Ilyana > Tormod while I'm at it. Add that to the bucket list.

Although I also used Tormod in my Rolf-using playthrough, so it's not like we can't have our cake, eat it, and hollow it out into a summer home all at once.

Once upon a time I benched Rolf.

And everyone got their cake because he didn't steal CEXP.

Rolf's chip is fairly infinitesimal in utility, but it's an adequate tiebreaker for two units who are pretty damn similar for their shared lifespan. Plus, even if Wendy chips that Chapter 8 wall, that's not going to catapult her to level 10. You need to chip lots of enemies, and Wendy simply can't.

Except they aren't similar.

Rolf's chips are so insignificant because they do pitiful damage on most enemies.

Bastian's chips are almost pointless, except that at least he can use siege tomes to back out of his rut and damages enemies harder in his frame than Rolf did in his framespan.

Okay, chip damage before Bastian exists and just being plain better after Bastian exists.

Except to be plain better than Bastian, you have to do something other than chip for insignificant damage.

If Rolf goes up and chips an enemy that was going to die anyway, then that does not cost anything except for a negligible amount of money to pay for his weapon, and a moment of our time (worthless). If he is somehow taking kills, that rather puts a hole in your refrain of Rolf being completely useless and unable to do anything in a world of ORKOing God-Paladins.

Ah ah ah! Time is money, after all, and money is everything!

I also never mentioned Rolf being attacked. Well, he shouldn't, anyway.

I don't think I've even suggested giving Rolf BEXP. In fact, I have taken great pains to suggest he's not. If he does, training him becomes almost trivial. I had him promoted in midgame; let alone by the time Bastian joins.

Speaking as someone who has actually used Rolf, he does not need /that/ much BEXP. He needs a lot, that's true...

I see the word need.

That means you're either suggesting it or hinting to suggest it.

Nope. Just not true! One could easily conceive of a unit who had no cost. Like, say, FE7 Merlinus.

I still have to deploy Merlinus, and if I am to retain the weapon I buy from the shop, he might need to be protected.

Nevermind that Merlinus isn't a unit in FE7. Otherwise, forts are too!

Except that even if you don't give Rolf BEXP, ever, he is still strictly >= Bastian because he has 15 chapters of chipping and then both of them exist and hey Rolf is better.

Hey what if Rolf only chipped only once per chapter? I guess he's not better than Bastian statistically is he?

It's greater than or equal to zero. And Bastian is hardly better than a 20/2 Rolf.

Sure he is. He never had to train to get to his level (well the player didn't have to train Bastian anyway).

How would you define "effort"? Work done? Calories expended? Buttons pressed?

Personally, I would define "effort" at the moment as "pointless conversation between now two people playing devil's advocate".

I believe I gave him about 1k of BEXP over earlygame and midgame. He was promoted in the Chapter 17 base.

Ah look, you still gave him a resource.

Well... guess all hope is lost for the Rolf brigade meow.

[aku chi]

What a disappointing reply.

Anouleth's argument:

Premise: Rolf can get to 20/2 by C24 with no Bexp.

Premise: 20/2 Rolf is at least as valuable as base Bastian in their shared availability.

Conclusion: Rolf > Bastian

Your red herrings:

- Giving Rolf Bexp is inefficient and costly. This is irrelevant, because Anouleth's argument does not involve giving Rolf Bexp.

- Training Rolf without giving him Bexp is somehow costly. How can this be, when deployment is assumed no cost, and the only resources we're giving Rolf are free and generic bows (effectively costless)? So long as we don't slow down, or expose Rolf to an enemy on enemy phase, Rolf cannot be hurting our efforts. His utility in the chapters before Bastian shows up is greater than or equal to zero.

- Anouleth's argument would imply Boyd > Kieran (and such). This is false because Kieran dominates Boyd in their shared availability and thus fails the second premise of Anouleth's argument.

What you should be arguing:

Either (1) Rolf cannot reach 20/2 by C24 in an efficient playthrough without Bexp or (2) Base Bastian is more valuable in his chapters than a 20/2 Rolf.

Edited May 9, 2012 by aku chi