FE9 Tier list v3

[aku chi]

Concerning the opportunity cost of Bexp, I'd like to correct some untruths I may have uttered in the past. I believe, in the lengthy Marcia vs. Oscar discussion, I claimed that the opportunity cost for giving Marcia Bexp, is the cost of that Bexp going to the next best candidate (Jill, or Astrid, or Kieran, or whomever). This is not entirely accurate, and I want to apologize for perpetuating this untruth. When considering the cost of a unit taking Bexp, it is the marginal value of that Bexp that is important.

Consider us giving Marcia 1400 Bexp before C12. At this time, we could have had ~3000 or ~2300 Bexp, depending on whether or not we stealth-cleared C10, respectively. When evaluating the cost of Marcia taking 1400 Bexp, it is that last 1400 Bexp out of our possible total that is the relevant number. Because regardless of whether Marcia takes that 1400 Bexp, there is still ~1600 or ~900 Bexp available for use elsewhere. We can assume that that Bexp will go to the best non-Marcia use (perhaps some is given to Oscar, Boyd, or Kieran, perhaps some is retained for Jill or Astrid). Having used that ~1600 or ~900 Bexp optimally, we are to consider the value of that additional 1400 Bexp that Marcia is taking. Specifically, we consider the next best use of that Bexp. If we've already "given" (actually or conceptually with the ~1600 or ~900 Bexp) Oscar and Boyd enough Bexp to ORKO, they are not the best use of the Bexp. If we've deferred some of the ~1600 or ~900 for Jill's use, Jill's gains from the Bexp are only a part of the cost. As you can see in this case, the cost of giving Marcia 1400 Bexp before C12 is still high, but it is not quite as high as considering the same Bexp chuck going entirely to Jill as if it were her first Bexp.

Consider a point further down the road, C16, where we're had an opportunity to accrue a large amount of Bexp. Let's suppose that number is ~4500 Bexp. When we consider giving Makalov (or Tormod, or whomever) a 1000 Bexp dump before C16, we are to consider the value of the last 1000 Bexp of our total ~4500 Bexp. Of that first 3500 Bexp, we might have given a bunch to Oscar, Marcia, Kieran, Jill, and/or Astrid. Depending on how many of these units we're training, we might have gotten all of these mounted units to ORKOing territory. So the marginal Bexp cost of 1000 Bexp in C16 might be the cost of giving the Bexp to Tormod or Makalov, or Mist, Nephenee, a Mage, or a Myrmidon.

That is all. Feel free to continue with your regularly scheduled material.

[Lord Raven]

Well, it's probably unaffordable but there is no reason to wait if you can afford it. You don't get interest on the stuff, and unless there are units who are also waiting for promotion (maybe Oscar and Makalov) to better weapon types, promoting her should take priority.

What if you want to spend it on someone else

No, it doesn't. There is absolutely no reason why we should care how expensive it is to overlevel Astrid, since that is not something we will be doing anyway. And certainly it is a strawman to suggest that this means that all characters are equal.

No but "I don't see any reason to BEXP Astrid past the point she one rounds" is a pretty halfassed point, because the same could be said about Makalov and then you have both characters are equal. And then this leads to BEXP being the tie breaker (as well as availability)

By which you mean "Astrid costs you less BEXP". BEXP is easily measurable, but I don't really care to guess exactly how many units of "flexibility" Astrid is "giving" us.

Yes it's measurable, that's why you can measure flexibility pretty easily based upon how many more units you can level with her

[Dark Sage]

Mia should probably go down, maybe down a tier or at least at the bottom of Upper Mid.

[Colonel M]

Mia should probably go down, maybe down a tier or at least at the bottom of Upper Mid.

You mean Mid Tier, right?

She's currently in Mid Tier.

[Dark Sage]

Yes. Thank you for catching that Tyrant-sama.

[Life]

Mia's perfect where she is... but Ilyana isn't. If we're using Ilyana as a combat unit, Soren already exists (and is much better since he actually can kill stuff) and Tormod comes along with equal stats and a +2 Move advantage later. If she's staffbotting, Rhys and Mist have better staff levels than her (Mist starts at E but gains D at least on promotion) and Mist gets a horse.

To me, Ilyana just overshadowed by everyone. She's worst at her job in everything and moves slowly. Bump her down a tier.

[Paperblade]

Mia is above units that have actual utility with no investment (Rhys/Gatrie/Sothe/mounts)

how is this not too high

[Samias]

I find Soren and Ilyana more or less equal, except Soren has better availability and Adept. Ilyana gets a lot of good supports to make up for her lack of a killer skill, many of which are not really contested supports. Not that Ilyana is fantastic in any capacity, but she shares the same speed growth as Soren and doesn't get weighed down by tomes like he does. If she does get moved down, top of lower-mid is as far down as I would go, but then you have her tiered below Volke...

Personally I think Haar could move up a little. His availability is not great but a lot of chapters love the durable flier.

[Hawk King]

^ Illyana has a 30% SPD growth. Soren's is 40%

They do not have the same SPD growth.

[-Cynthia-]

Mia is above units that have actual utility with no investment (Rhys/Gatrie/Sothe/mounts)

how is this not too high

Shinon has utility with no investment, Nephenee doesn't really (at least on an optimum mount spam playthrough). Is Shinon>Nephenee?

@Ilyana She is worse than Soren, but the thing is that she isn't *much* worse than Soren. He's a little faster, has higher Mag and Adept, Ilyana is a bit more durable with more useful weapon ranks (and weighed down less by tomes). I'm not really seeing what makes a tier gap between them.

[Life]

@Ilyana She is worse than Soren, but the thing is that she isn't *much* worse than Soren. He's a little faster, has higher Mag and Adept, Ilyana is a bit more durable with more useful weapon ranks (and weighed down less by tomes). I'm not really seeing what makes a tier gap between them.

The tier gap is that he's doubling with stronger tomes but she isn't. Soren starts at level 1 with a base of 8 Spd, 4 chapters earlier. He's gonna have 11 Spd (give or take) at level 8, just when Ilyana joins pretty much for the start of Chapter 9.

Fire and Thunder have the same weight. Soren now has 8 AS while Ilyana (at base) has... well, 6 AS. The difference here is so vast because Soren is doubling Mages even with Fire but gets WTA with Wind. He's barely missing 1RKOs with Adept. Ilyana only doubles while taking the Wind tome from Soren but fails to even 2RKO these mages. Similar story on the 4 AS Fighters. Soren 2RKOs them easily even with Wind. Ilyana almost misses the 5HKO (it's still a 3RKO) with Soren's Wind. Her Elthunder is still a 3RKO which does let her crit-kill but 12 Crit isn't anything to rely on, especially when you only hit once.

Ilyana's performance out of the gate compared to Soren's is quite pitiful. And bare in mind that Soren's only using Wind and Fire while Ilyana has a stronger weapon with Crit attached to it.

[Chiki]

He's gonna have 11 Spd (give or take) at level 8, just when Ilyana joins pretty much for the start of Chapter 9.

I seriously doubt he'd be level 8 by chapter 9. Level 6 sounds more likely, and even that may be too generous. Soren is a big burden on your team during the chapters he's in, so he probably won't be doing much...

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[Samias]

Yeah I was totally off on Ilyana's speed growth. They aren't even in the same in RD, where Ilyana's speed really IS an issue. Still, where Ilyana lacks stats, she makes up for it with a abundant, nearly uncontested supports. Her supports are other mid-tiers but she can get Earth from Zihark (or Lucia if you really wanted to...), Water from Mordecai, or Fire from Mia. Light isn't a very good affinity and her supports definitely don't need hit, but Ilyana will pretty much always find space in her partners' support pool, whereas Soren has an extremely contested Ike support and a nearly useless Stefan support. She's also a little closer to Rexbolt than Soren or Tormod. Looking over her base and averages though, it makes me think Ilyana SHOULD be moved down to the bottom of Mid or the top of Lower-mid. Ilyana can squeeze out some earlygame crits, but despite looking like a growth unit, she's actually got similar averages to Calill, who has much better overall weapon ranks and bases minus the ability to use staves.

[Chiki]

I admit I'm biased, but I'd rather Ilyana over Soren any day. She's not as much of a burden as Soren is early on; she has better weapon ranks and supports as well.

[Life]

I seriously doubt he'd be level 8 by chapter 9. Level 6 sounds more likely, and even that may be too generous. Soren is a big burden on your team during the chapters he's in, so he probably won't be doing much...

Chapter 8 is 8 turns long and Soren sits behind Ike or Boyd and snipes away. He gains a retarded amount of Exp from that chapter alone. A level of BExp takes him to 8 for the start of Chapter 9. Very reasonable.

Ilyana's supports aren't really that good if we're playing efficiently simply because of the Move differences. The only viable ones are Zihark and Mia and it's unlikely that both get fielded together. Her D in Thunder is really nice (and better than Soren's fat E) but all we need for Bolting is C Thunder. Soren has the jump on Wind (it means that he starts using Tornado a full 2 chapters before Thoron appears) and still has enough time to build up his Thunder rank for Bolting (15x2 uses of Thunder and then 10x2 of Elthunder before Chapter 17).

I'm not trying to sandbag Ilyana but the thing is, she really is mediocre and her current position doesn't reflect that.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Life Admiral

[Shadow Mir]

Chapter 8 is 8 turns long and Soren sits behind Ike or Boyd and snipes away. He gains a retarded amount of Exp from that chapter alone. A level of BExp takes him to 8 for the start of Chapter 9. Very reasonable.

Ilyana's supports aren't really that good if we're playing efficiently simply because of the Move differences. The only viable ones are Zihark and Mia and it's unlikely that both get fielded together. Her D in Thunder is really nice (and better than Soren's fat E) but all we need for Bolting is C Thunder. Soren has the jump on Wind (it means that he starts using Tornado a full 2 chapters before Thoron appears) and still has enough time to build up his Thunder rank for Bolting (15x2 uses of Thunder and then 10x2 of Elthunder before Chapter 17).

I'm not trying to sandbag Ilyana but the thing is, she really is mediocre and her current position doesn't reflect that.

Just pointing out something here, but that's all assuming that Soren doesn't activate Adept even once, as extra strikes granted by Adept don't give WEXP. Also, Soren getting to A Wind before you get Tornado doesn't exactly sound feasible unless you have him use ONLY wind magic, and that's discounting Tornado's 6 Mt.

[Chiki]

Chapter 8 is 8 turns long and Soren sits behind Ike or Boyd and snipes away. He gains a retarded amount of Exp from that chapter alone. A level of BExp takes him to 8 for the start of Chapter 9. Very reasonable.

Ilyana's supports aren't really that good if we're playing efficiently simply because of the Move differences. The only viable ones are Zihark and Mia and it's unlikely that both get fielded together. Her D in Thunder is really nice (and better than Soren's fat E) but all we need for Bolting is C Thunder. Soren has the jump on Wind (it means that he starts using Tornado a full 2 chapters before Thoron appears) and still has enough time to build up his Thunder rank for Bolting (15x2 uses of Thunder and then 10x2 of Elthunder before Chapter 17).

I'm not trying to sandbag Ilyana but the thing is, she really is mediocre and her current position doesn't reflect that.

Soren only has player phase action, so I'm afraid you're once again grossly exaggerating the amount of exp he can get. Think of him as an archer instead since that is the only way you can use him, then consider how little exp he can get.

Move differences? You yourself mentioned Zihark and Mia, and the move differences don't count with them since it's only one. One support is enough--Mia gives might and hit for Ilyana's siege tome abuse, helping make up for Soren's might advantage, and Zihark actually makes Ilyana much more able to dodge thanks to his amazing affinity.

Elthunder has more might and crit than Tornado, so there's really neither rhyme nor reason to state such a trivial advantage. Tornado only has one less weight than Elthunder, as well.

Ilyana has the jump on Thunder magic, and requires less babying than Soren (and isn't such a burden on your team early on), so imo she should be above Soren.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

Tornado is a complete non-factor for Soren:

• Soren isn't reaching A Wind.
  
• Elthunder has more Mt than Tornado against most foes.
  
• Soren can generally 2HKO all fliers with Elwind.
  
• Soren prefers to use Thunder anyway, because a forged Thunder is his best weapon and he wants to work towards wielding Bolting.

But Ilyana's weapon levels are no advantage over Soren. Soren gets D Thunder with promotion (before which he isn't even tempted to use the heavy Elthunder) and can use C17-3 to work towards C Thunder in time for C22's Bolting. So Ilyana's faster C Thunder is only relevant if you get the C16 Bolting (an inefficient treasure). Thoron is nice, but by the time Ilyana can wield it (if ever), Soren can out-damage her with Elthunder. Rexbolt is only available for Endgame, and thus a non-factor (generously assuming that Ilyana can ever reach S Thunder in an efficient playthrough). Meanwhile, Soren has early Elwind use and an effortless C Wind for Blizzard use.

Also, I disagree with Life Admiral that level 8 in C8 is plausible for Soren in an efficient run. Soren is pretty much deadweight in C4 and C6. Soren can help a little in C7 and has guaranteed combat in C5 and C8, but this will likely bring him around level 6-7 by the end of C8, at which point he's similar to Ilyana. Yes, Soren is just plain better than Ilyana, but his leads aren't massive. Ilyana can do almost everything that Soren can with only a little more resources. I think it's completely reasonable that Ilyana be in the same tier as Soren.

On the other hand, Aeine's LTC run demonstrates that Tormod's +2 mov over the other Sages is not essential, even if it is often helpful. Considering that Tormod > Soren seemed to be decided based on (unsubstantiated) claims that Tormod could reach siege targets that Soren could not, I submit that that move was made in error. Also, I've demonstrated ways in which Soren and Ilyana can make major LTC contributions in C15 and minor contributions in other chapters before Tormod is available. Soren > Tormod.

Edit:

Ilyana has the jump on Thunder magic, and requires less babying than Soren (and isn't such a burden on your team early on), so imo she should be above Soren.

Ilyana's Thunder magic lead is almost entirely irrelevant - and offset by Soren's Wind lead. Negative utility does not exist; Soren's only "cost" in his pre-Ilyana chapters is taking some Cexp in C5 and C8 that might have gone to Boyd, Oscar, or Ike - a minor cost which can be completely offset by his positive contributions in C7. So Ilyana and Soren start C9 on even footing, at which point Soren is just plain better. He has more Atk, more AS, Adept, and similar durability. With generic tomes, Soren is, at worst, slightly better than Ilyana. With a Thunder forge, Soren has noticeably better 1-2 range combat. Soren > Ilyana is abundandly clear.

Edited June 19, 2012 by aku chi

[Chiki]

Considering that Tormod > Soren seemed to be decided based on (unsubstantiated) claims that Tormod could reach siege targets that Soren could not,

The siege target only Tormod can reach without assistance is Hafedd at the end of Chapter 27. I don't know how important of an advantage that is because you can make up for that in other ways easily, but I'm just pointing it out. Personally, I used the Rescue staff.

Ilyana's Thunder magic lead is almost entirely irrelevant - and offset by Soren's Wind lead. Negative utility does not exist; Soren's only "cost" in his pre-Ilyana chapters is taking some Cexp in C5 and C8 that might have gone to Boyd, Oscar, or Ike - a minor cost which can be completely offset by his positive contributions in C7. So Ilyana and Soren start C9 on even footing, at which point Soren is just plain better. He has more Atk, more AS, Adept, and similar durability. With generic tomes, Soren is, at worst, slightly better than Ilyana. With a Thunder forge, Soren has noticeably better 1-2 range combat. Soren > Ilyana is abundandly clear.

On paper it might sound like negative utility doesn't exist, but in practice is that really true? What if Boyd, Ike or Oscar have to weaken someone for Soren to get the kill instead of charging in a way which could potentially save time? That was the entire reason I didn't use Soren in my run.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

The siege target only Tormod can reach without assistance is Hafedd at the end of Chapter 27. I don't know how important of an advantage that is because you can make up for that in other ways easily, but I'm just pointing it out. Personally, I used the Rescue staff.

Good to know.

On paper it might sound like negative utility doesn't exist, but in practice is that really true? What if Boyd, Ike or Oscar have to weaken someone for Soren to get the kill instead of charging in a way which could potentially save time?

• One doesn't save [turns] in C5 and C8.
  
• Oscar and Boyd aren't ORKOing in C5 or C7 (and may not in C8 depending on how much Bexp we give them). So Soren is going to be teaming up to kill with these guys anyway. The only difference, if we intend to train him, is that we'll try to give Soren the kill.
  

[Shadow Mir]

Meanwhile, Soren has early Elwind use and an effortless C Wind for Blizzard use.

You have a point, although Blizzard comes in chapter 23, which I'd say is late enough that Ilyana should be able to get a C in wind by the time it appears.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Golden Cucco

[Chiki]

• One doesn't save [turns] in C5 and C8.
• Oscar and Boyd aren't ORKOing in C5 or C7 (and may not in C8 depending on how much Bexp we give them). So Soren is going to be teaming up to kill with these guys anyway. The only difference, if we intend to train him, is that we'll try to give Soren the kill.

Negative utility may not exist in those chapters then. There are a few things to consider though:

1) Soren could become a target for random archers out of the fog in C5, potentially blocking Oscar/Boyd/Ike from getting exp if Soren is adjacent to them.

2) Soren could become a target for archers, again, in C8 (particularly an annoying Longbow one) and Javelin cavaliers.

Even ignoring those points, training Soren could potentially cost turns in C4, C6 and C7. Ilyana has excellent time to train without costing any turns at all in C9 and C11 due to game design itself, allowing her to get up to par.

Yes, Soren does turn out better than Ilyana, but I do think negative utility should at least be considered.

[aku chi]

Negative utility may not exist in those chapters then. There are a few things to consider though:

1) Soren could become a target for random archers out of the fog in C5, potentially blocking Oscar/Boyd/Ike from getting exp if Soren is adjacent to them.

2) Soren could become a target for archers, again, in C8 (particularly an annoying Longbow one) and Javelin cavaliers.

Even ignoring those points, training Soren could potentially cost turns in C4, C6 and C7. Ilyana has excellent time to train without costing any turns at all in C9 and C11 due to game design itself, allowing her to get up to par.

Yes, Soren does turn out better than Ilyana, but I do think negative utility should at least be considered.

If training Soren costs us anything we care about, we don't train Soren in that way. That's what I mean when I say that there is no negative utility. If we only have Soren run and hide in C4 and C6, and only contribute when it helps in C7, Soren can still reach level 6 by the end of C8 thanks to C5 and C8. So Soren is at least level 6 in the C9 base just like Ilyana, at which point he can be trained just like Ilyana, except he's a little better to start and a good deal better later on.

[Chiki]

If training Soren costs us anything we care about, we don't train Soren in that way. That's what I mean when I say that there is no negative utility. If we only have Soren run and hide in C4 and C6, and only contribute when it helps in C7, Soren can still reach level 6 by the end of C8 thanks to C5 and C8. So Soren is at least level 6 in the C9 base just like Ilyana, at which point he can be trained just like Ilyana, except he's a little better to start and a good deal better later on.

That makes sense, but there's still the issue of supports. Soren isn't likely to get any, while Ilyana supports both Mia and Zihark (both are unlikely to be fielded on the same playthrough, though). Mia would love Ilyana's might and def support, while Zihark and Ilyana both benefit from avoid and def.

At level 5 promoted, Ilyana with Zihark's A support has 61 avoid while Soren has 48 avoid with no supports (Ike and Soren are not likely at all to ever be near each other). This increase isn't one-way as Zihark's durability goes up a lot too thanks to Ilyana.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Aeine

[Shadow Mir]

That makes sense, but there's still the issue of supports. Soren isn't likely to get any, while Ilyana supports both Mia and Zihark (both are unlikely to be fielded on the same playthrough, though). Mia would love Ilyana's might and def support, while Zihark and Ilyana both benefit from avoid and def.

At level 5 promoted, Ilyana with Zihark's A support has 61 avoid while Soren has 48 avoid with no supports (Ike and Soren are not likely at all to ever be near each other). This increase isn't one-way as Zihark's durability goes up a lot too thanks to Ilyana.

The problem with that is that Ilyana/Zihark doesn't get to A rank until chapter 26 or something.