FE9 Tier list v3

[Mekkah]

People argue that giving all of your resources to Levin!Arthur in FE4 is the most efficient thing to do because he's going to save the most turns in the long run. Why doesn't the same apply to Marcia/Jill?

Probably because not the same "people". The world does not consist of you vs everyone else.

[Chiki]

Probably because not the same "people". The world does not consist of you vs everyone else.

You know something is wrong when people come into a tier list thread to make ad hominem arguments.

[Mekkah]

That's not even ad hominem. "If you were as talented at getting scholarships as you were in making petty yet unhelpful remarks, maybe you could have your own FE4 figures one day." is closer to ad hominem than anything I have posted.

[Chiki]

That's not even ad hominem. "If you were as talented at getting scholarships as you were in making petty yet unhelpful remarks, maybe you could have your own FE4 figures one day." is closer to ad hominem than anything I have posted.

That was in response to someone not contributing to the discussion at hand, just like what you're doing. I suggest you offer your opinion on the matter instead of making personal remarks.

[Hawk King]

Well Aeine, using your interesting scoring method above, (which I do like) I suppose Titania would have a +1 for Chps 1-11 and the rest would be the same as Oscar. Making Tits > Jill > Oscar.

I think Titania tier should be removed and the top tier should look somthing like this:

Marcia

Titania

Jill

Oscar

Kieran

Agree, disagree?

[aku chi]

It might make the map a little easier, but it's not necessary in the least. Oscar does nothing to clear this chapter more quickly.

That sounds like a slight advantage.

Karuma actually has a Soldier Band, not a Red Gem, which is for all intents and purposes a basically useless item. Oscar is not necessary in this chapter in the least.

Serenes Forest indicates that Karuma also drops a Red Gem. Oscar can also help recruit Ilyana, act as a wall to let Soren get more Cexp, and other minor contributions. It's nothing stellar, but I'd rather have Oscar in C8 than not.

A promoted Oscar is not useful in the least for 3-turn clears (I don't know where you get that idea)

Seemed useful to me.

No one cares about Oscar in this chapter; you really overstate his importance.

Oscar's contributions here are nothing special (I said as much). Nevertheless, Oscar can contribute towards the clear more than Jill.

I want to see this actually happen because it sounds quite implausible. It seems a little hard to believe with Ike having to be dropped 7 spaces away from from the seize square on turn 3. Can Oscar even bypass the pitfalls and walls and enemies?

I've pulled it off in a draft using transformed Reyson.

I greatly doubt that Oscar can help clear the chapter in 3 turns. First off, Ike has to be in Resolve range to one-round the red dragon guarding the boss by turn 2. Secondly, Oscar has to kill the boss on turn 2.. he just doesn't have the move to be able to reach him. There are tiger reinforcements that prevent us from 2-turning the chapter, which is why you have to rush so much.

I used transformed Reyson and a Rescue staff use to get a no fliers 3-turn clear in a draft. My 3-turn clear was on NM and the chapter's units does differ notably, so it might not be possible on HM - but I doubt it. Why does the boss need to be killed on turn 2 in a 3-turn clear? With transformed Reyson, I'll be bringing four combat units to the finish line, so two of them can team up to defeat the Red Dragon blocking the way.

I'll make a pointing system based on each's contributions in each chapter.

I'd like to think this comparison is too nuanced for a numerical comparison, but you've forced my hand into at least correcting your errors.

Chapter 2: No advantage

Chapter 12: No advantage

Chapter 14: No advantage

Chapter 17-2: Jill, 1

Chapter 2: Oscar can positively contribute to this rout; Jill cannot. Oscar, 0.5

Chapter 12: Oscar can positively contribute to this rout; Jill: not so much. Oscar, 0.5

Chapter 14: Promoted Oscar is one of the best units to kill Gashilama on turn 2 (notably more reliable than Marcia). Because Jill can't be smited by Mordecai, she cannot make this awesome contribution. Oscar, 1

Chapter 17-2: Jill's advantage is minimal. If Marcia is recruited, Oscar and Jill have the exact same role in the clear. And in cases where neither Marcia nor Jill are recruited, Oscar can facilitate the Lethe 4-turn clear by ferrying Mordecai for a turn-2 smite. Only in cases where Jill is recruited and Marcia isn't does Jill have an advantage. Jill, 0.5

Which results in:

Oscar: 8

Jill: 9

This, in a comparison which favors Jill in the first place. When we consider the significant contributions promoted Oscar can potentially make in chapters 10 and 11, and the resources reserved for better uses by giving Oscar his optimal resource bundle (~500 Bexp less, (no Boots, no stat boosters, no Full Guard)), I believe Oscar has the slight edge. Certainly, there is not a tier gap of difference between Oscar and Jill.

I think Titania tier should be removed and the top tier should look somthing like this:

Marcia

Titania

Jill

Oscar

Kieran

Agree, disagree?

Marcia > Titania has not been argued (and I strongly disagree with it). I also believe I demonstrated that Oscar is slightly more valuable than Jill, but I would be satisfied with the following top tier, at this time:

Titania

Marcia

Oscar/Jill in some order

Kieran

Edited August 10, 2012 by aku chi

[Hawk King]

Well I think removing the Titania Tier is pretty unanimous.

Now to argue Titania/Marcia, and Jill/Oscar

Kieran is a lock for the 5th spot right?

edit: Oh, the boss for Chp 8 does NOT have the Red Gem. The healer between the boss and the cavs has it.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Hawk King

[Lord Raven]

That was in response to someone not contributing to the discussion at hand, just like what you're doing. I suggest you offer your opinion on the matter instead of making personal remarks.

It was a contribution. He was saying the argument doesn't hold water because not everyone says that levin!arthur is the best use of resources. The same person arguing against marcia/Jill is not the same person arguing in favor of levin!arthur. It was a fairly obvious point, and if you think it's ad hominem then you don't know shit about what ad hominem is.

[Chiki]

Serenes Forest indicates that Karuma also drops a Red Gem. Oscar can also help recruit Ilyana, act as a wall to let Soren get more Cexp, and other minor contributions. It's nothing stellar, but I'd rather have Oscar in C8 than not.

http://www.serenesfo...boss_stat_h.htm

I remember getting Soldier Bands too. I think it's just a mistake on that page.

Seemed useful to me.

If Sage Soren would be useful in clearing Chapter 11, would you say he's a necessity? Should I give Sage Soren a point for being potentially able to kick ass in Chapter 11? Promoted Oscar isn't necessary for the 3-turn in the least, which already is easy enough in the first place.

Oscar's contributions here are nothing special (I said as much). Nevertheless, Oscar can contribute towards the clear more than Jill.

But he can be replaced by basically anyone, which is why I don't consider him to have any advantage over JIll.

I used transformed Reyson and a Rescue staff use to get a no fliers 3-turn clear in a draft. My 3-turn clear was on NM and the chapter's units does differ notably, so it might not be possible on HM - but I doubt it. Why does the boss need to be killed on turn 2 in a 3-turn clear? With transformed Reyson, I'll be bringing four combat units to the finish line, so two of them can team up to defeat the Red Dragon blocking the way.

Because of the dreaded tiger reinforcements, who arrive in incredibly inconvenient places if you don't kill the boss. But they don't appear at all if you kill him.

When we consider the significant contributions promoted Oscar can potentially make in chapters 10 and 11, and the resources reserved for better uses by giving Oscar his optimal resource bundle (~500 Bexp less, (no Boots, no stat boosters, no Full Guard)),

I don't know what you're talking about. Why compare Oscar and Jill to each other if one is receiving the Boots and the other isn't? Oscar's optimal resource bundle includes the Boots, and so does Jill's. Obviously Oscar > Jill if both are without the Boots.. but the Boots is so much more valuable when used on a flier, as I have demonstrated with my numerical examples. Jill > Oscar.

I know this system isn't perfect, but I think it's accurate enough. Anyway, let's argue for Marcia > Titania (assuming Marcia gets her optimal resource bundle, and assuming Titania gets the Boots and maybe an Energy Drop and Speedwing).

Chapter 1: Titania, 1

Chapter 2: Titania, 1

Chapter 3: Titania, 1

Chapter 4: Titania, 1

Chapter 5: Titania, 1

Chapter 6: Titania, 1

Chapter 7: Titania, 1

Chapter 8: Titania, 1

Chapter 9: Titania, 1

Chapter 10: No advantage

Chapter 11: Marcia, 1

Chapter 12: Marcia, 1

Chapter 13: Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 14: No advantage

Chapter 15: Marcia, 1

Chapter 16: No advantage

Chapter 17-1: Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 17-2: Marcia, 1

Chapter 17-3: No advantage

Chapter 17-4: Marcia, 1

Chapter 18: Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 19: Marcia, 1

Chapter 20: Marcia, 1

Chapter 21: Marcia, 1

Chapter 22: No advantage

Chapter 23: Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 24: No advantage

Chapter 25: Marcia, 1

Chapter 26: No advantage

Chapter 27: No advantage

Chapter 28: Marcia, 1

Endgame: Marcia, 0.5

Titania: 9

Marcia: 12

The main reason Marcia > Titania and Jill > Oscar is because of the map designs in this game. As you can see, all the chapters in which Marcia wins are because of her flight advantage over Titania, which results in a ridiculous number of turn cuts.

Honestly I can see Titania > Jill. Jill has some problems with doubling Petrine and Homasa, and does badly with magic attacks, and costs your team turns to recruit her.

I think Marcia should be in a tier of her own at the top, followed by the rest in another tier. But maybe that's just me.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Aeine

[Anouleth]

I know this system isn't perfect, but I think it's accurate enough. Anyway, let's argue for Marcia > Titania (assuming Marcia gets her optimal resource bundle, and assuming Titania gets the Boots and maybe an Energy Drop and Speedwing).

I don't really understand this logic. Why is Titania taking the Boots?

[Chiki]

I don't really understand this logic. Why is Titania taking the Boots?

Just to make the comparison fairer, and help people understand why flight is so important in this game.

[Anouleth]

Just to make the comparison fairer, and help people understand why flight is so important in this game.

I understand that flight is important, and it doesn't make the comparison fairer. Titania loses out by taking the Boots because she'd rather give them to Jill or Tanith and invalidate some of Marcia's turn gain advantages than take them herself.

[Chiki]

I understand that flight is important, and it doesn't make the comparison fairer. Titania loses out by taking the Boots because she'd rather give them to Jill or Tanith and invalidate some of Marcia's turn gain advantages than take them herself.

Problems with Jill:

1. By far the most important one is that she might not even be recruited. Recruiting her costs around 5-6 turns in itself, which is very significant when you want to play efficiently.

2. Horrible resistance. At level 10 promoted, Marcia basically has 7 resistance over Jill.

3. She has some speed issues, which prevent her from doubling bosses like Homasa, Ena, Petrine, and Bertram. All of these units have to be killed to clear the chapter.

Problems with Tanith:

1. By the time she appears, you've already lost some turn cuts in Chapter 16, 17-2 and 17-4.

2. Overall lame bases, which is incredibly important if you want a Tanith solo. Marcia at level 10 promoted has +5 HP, +3 Str, +3 Skl, +1 Def and +3 Res over her, whereas Tanith has +5 Luk. Great speed but crappy strength, which again, prevents her from killing the aforementioned bosses. Even Marcia with 23 strength can't kill Ena and Petrine, but she can bring them down enough for a siege tome user to kill them, whereas Tanith can't.

I think it might be a good idea to consider Jill vs. Marcia:

Chapter 3: I'll give this to Jill, because it costs one turn to recruit Marcia. Jill, 0.5

Chapter 9: Again, giving it to Jill. It's two turns this time instead of one. Jill, 1

Chapter 10: Marcia, 1

Chapter 11: Marcia, 1

Chapter 12: Marcia, 1

Chapter 13: Marcia can ORKO the ravens whereas Jill can't without a Speedwing. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 14: Giving it to Marcia here, because I believe Jill is unable to reach the boss without Mordecai's Smites. Feel free to correct me. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 15: No advantage

Chapter 16: Jill has an easier time killing the boss of this chapter than Marcia does, but on the other hand, Jill can't even be shoved by Lethe or Mordecai (untransformed). No advantage.

Chapter 17-1: No advantage

Chapter 17-2: Marcia, for being able to be shoved by Lethe and Muarim. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 17-3: No advantage

Chapter 17-4: Same reason as before. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 18: No advantage

Chapter 19: Marcia, 1, since she can kill Homasa.

Chapter 20: No advantage

Chapter 21: Marcia, 0.5, for being able to double Ena without needing a Speedwing.

Chapter 22: No advantage

Chapter 23: Marcia, 0.5, for being able to double Petrine.

Chapter 24: No advantage

Chapter 25: Giving it to Jill here, because her bases are more suitable for this rout map. Jill, 0.5

Chapter 26: Marcia can double Bertram. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 27: Going to give it to Jill here, because of those pesky tigers. Jill, 0.5

Chapter 28: No advantage.

Endgame: No advantage.

Jill: 2.5

Marcia: 7.5

Edited August 10, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

By far the most important one is that she might not even be recruited. Recruiting her costs around 5-6 turns in itself, which is very significant when you want to play efficiently.

if we're talking tier placements then this isn't relevant

[Snowy_One]

A bit off-topic but...

I'm curious. How exactly do you guys handle Ike seizing? I mean, even if you give it no value at all you simply cannot beat most chapters unless Ike is there on the seize spot. Does it simply not get mentioned? Does he get transported but not fight unless mentioned so? Or what?

[aku chi]

If Sage Soren would be useful in clearing Chapter 11, would you say he's a necessity? Should I give Sage Soren a point for being potentially able to kick ass in Chapter 11? Promoted Oscar isn't necessary for the 3-turn in the least, which already is easy enough in the first place.

• I never said Oscar was necessary for a 3-turn clear.
  
• If Sage Soren could contribute substantially (ferrying Ike, killing the tough enemies blocking the Escape) to the most efficient clear of C10, he should get credit for that. Because he has 6 mov, he cannot. Oscar can.
  
• Can you clear C10 in 3 turns while recruiting Kieran and Nephenee without promoted Oscar?
  
• Stealth clears of C10 should also be considered. In stealth clears, promoted Oscar is - get this - necessary to the fastest clears. Without promoted Oscar, stealth clears take 3-4 turns longer (depending on if you recruit Nephenee).
  

But he can be replaced by basically anyone, which is why I don't consider him to have any advantage over JIll.

So nobody gets any credit killing Ravens as they approach the ship in C12? That's silly. Everyone who can contribute to the rout should get a little credit.

Because of the dreaded tiger reinforcements, who arrive in incredibly inconvenient places if you don't kill the boss. But they don't appear at all if you kill him.

I'll need to refresh my memory of HM's C28 before evaluating the feasibility of a 3-turn no-flier clear.

I don't know what you're talking about. Why compare Oscar and Jill to each other if one is receiving the Boots and the other isn't? Oscar's optimal resource bundle includes the Boots, and so does Jill's. Obviously Oscar > Jill if both are without the Boots.. but the Boots is so much more valuable when used on a flier, as I have demonstrated with my numerical examples. Jill > Oscar.

What? The Boots certainly aren't in Oscar's optimal resource bundle. Marcia, Jill, and Reyson can make better use of the Boots than Oscar. In just about every playthrough, it's more valuable to use the Boots on someone other than Oscar. I compared Jill vs. Oscar under the assumption that they both get the Boots for simplicity (in an argument that favored Jill). When we consider that my argument understated Oscar's net value because he requires fewer resources than Jill, Oscar > Jill becomes apparent.

I'll get to Titania > Marcia later.

[Anouleth]

Problems with Jill:

1. By far the most important one is that she might not even be recruited. Recruiting her costs around 5-6 turns in itself, which is very significant when you want to play efficiently.

Why does that matter? Read the tier list FAQ:

"-The better a character is, the more likely they are to be in play in a given playthrough. This is mainly important when discussing supports."

Jill is, according to you, the second or third best character in the game. So obviously she is very likely, in fact certain to be in play if Marcia is not. If we're not recruiting or using Marcia (and Marcia isn't assumed), then she costs us nothing.

2. Horrible resistance. At level 10 promoted, Marcia basically has 7 resistance over Jill.

3. She has some speed issues, which prevent her from doubling bosses like Homasa, Ena, Petrine, and Bertram. All of these units have to be killed to clear the chapter.

None of which are convincing reasons to give Titania the Boots over Jill.

Problems with Tanith:

1. By the time she appears, you've already lost some turn cuts in Chapter 16, 17-2 and 17-4.

2. Overall lame bases, which is incredibly important if you want a Tanith solo. Marcia at level 10 promoted has +5 HP, +3 Str, +3 Skl, +1 Def and +3 Res over her, whereas Tanith has +5 Luk. Great speed but crappy strength, which again, prevents her from killing the aforementioned bosses. Even Marcia with 23 strength can't kill Ena and Petrine, but she can bring them down enough for a siege tome user to kill them, whereas Tanith can't.

Why does this matter in relation to the Boots?

I think it might be a good idea to consider Jill vs. Marcia:

Chapter 3: I'll give this to Jill, because it costs one turn to recruit Marcia. Jill, 0.5

Chapter 9: Again, giving it to Jill. It's two turns this time instead of one. Jill, 1

Chapter 10: Marcia, 1

Chapter 11: Marcia, 1

Chapter 12: Marcia, 1

Chapter 13: Marcia can ORKO the ravens whereas Jill can't without a Speedwing. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 14: Giving it to Marcia here, because I believe Jill is unable to reach the boss without Mordecai's Smites. Feel free to correct me. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 15: No advantage

Chapter 16: Jill has an easier time killing the boss of this chapter than Marcia does, but on the other hand, Jill can't even be shoved by Lethe or Mordecai (untransformed). No advantage.

Chapter 17-1: No advantage

Chapter 17-2: Marcia, for being able to be shoved by Lethe and Muarim. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 17-3: No advantage

Chapter 17-4: Same reason as before. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 18: No advantage

Chapter 19: Marcia, 1, since she can kill Homasa.

Chapter 20: No advantage

Chapter 21: Marcia, 0.5, for being able to double Ena without needing a Speedwing.

Chapter 22: No advantage

Chapter 23: Marcia, 0.5, for being able to double Petrine.

Chapter 24: No advantage

Chapter 25: Giving it to Jill here, because her bases are more suitable for this rout map. Jill, 0.5

Chapter 26: Marcia can double Bertram. Marcia, 0.5

Chapter 27: Going to give it to Jill here, because of those pesky tigers. Jill, 0.5

Chapter 28: No advantage.

Endgame: No advantage.

Jill: 2.5

Marcia: 7.5

So under your optimal deployment/net utility theory, Marcia's "benefit", or the number of turns she saves, is 5 turns? Isn't that less than Titania?

Edited August 10, 2012 by Anouleth

[Chiki]

• I never said Oscar was necessary for a 3-turn clear.
• If Sage Soren could contribute substantially (ferrying Ike, killing the tough enemies blocking the Escape) to the most efficient clear of C10, he should get credit for that. Because he has 6 mov, he cannot. Oscar can.
• Can you clear C10 in 3 turns while recruiting Kieran and Nephenee without promoted Oscar?
• Stealth clears of C10 should also be considered. In stealth clears, promoted Oscar is - get this - necessary to the fastest clears. Without promoted Oscar, stealth clears take 3-4 turns longer (depending on if you recruit Nephenee).

Nor did I say you claimed he was necessary; I was simply saying that being useful /=/ necessary. Is it easy to conceive of a strategy that 3-turns 11 without promoted Oscar? Yes. Why should this contribution matter?

The question is whether the contribution is meaningful or not as regards to my example of Sage Soren. Guidelines for a unit's contribution to a chapter to be meaningful:

Can a unit cut turns from a chapter? Promoted Oscar doesn't cut any turns from Chapter 10.

Can a unit make a chapter simpler to clear (having a simpler strategy should be preferred over having a much more complicated one)? The strategy of Chapter 10 is simple enough already, just charge with all your units while carrying Ike.

Can a unit be relied on to take attacks from enemies? Promoted Oscar is more reliable than unpromoted Oscar indeed, but the most he's going to do is use a Javelin on a Halberdier that Titania couldn't one-round. Not very meaningful.

Can a unit clear the chapter in said amount of turns without using resources? Promoted Oscar uses up bexp.

Can a unit help us gain further resources? As you said, promoted Oscar may be helpful to recruit Nephenee--however, I don't see why recruiting Nephenee is such an important thing. She's a subpar character anyway.

Also, I don't see why promoted Marcia can't replace promoted Oscar in Chapter 10 for a stealth clear, though I can concede if Oscar has some sort of niche over Marcia.

So nobody gets any credit killing Ravens as they approach the ship in C12? That's silly. Everyone who can contribute to the rout should get a little credit.

If everyone is equally good at killing Ravens (except flying Marcia), why should anyone's contributions matter? They all cancel each other out since it can be replicated by anyone. It's not unique in any sense.

What? The Boots certainly aren't in Oscar's optimal resource bundle. Marcia, Jill, and Reyson can make better use of the Boots than Oscar. In just about every playthrough, it's more valuable to use the Boots on someone other than Oscar. I compared Jill vs. Oscar under the assumption that they both get the Boots for simplicity (in an argument that favored Jill). When we consider that my argument understated Oscar's net value because he requires fewer resources than Jill, Oscar > Jill becomes apparent.

Explain to me how giving Jill around 1000 bexp and the Boots harms your team.

Why does that matter? Read the tier list FAQ:

"-The better a character is, the more likely they are to be in play in a given playthrough. This is mainly important when discussing supports."

Jill is, according to you, the second or third best character in the game. So obviously she is very likely, in fact certain to be in play if Marcia is not. If we're not recruiting or using Marcia (and Marcia isn't assumed), then she costs us nothing.

Why would anyone in their right mind give Marcia and Jill a bexp dump when there's one pair of Boots to go and recruiting both costs a lot of turns?

None of which are convincing reasons to give Titania the Boots over Jill.

Why does this matter in relation to the Boots?

But if Titania gives the Boots to other characters, why does that make Titania better than Marcia?

So under your optimal deployment/net utility theory, Marcia's "benefit", or the number of turns she saves, is 5 turns? Isn't that less than Titania?

It's not the number of turn she saves, it's just a pointing system to help compare characters to each other. It's just meant to be a general guideline.

Edited August 10, 2012 by Aeine

[Anouleth]

If everyone is equally good at killing Ravens (except flying Marcia), why should anyone's contributions matter? They all cancel each other out since it can be replicated by anyone. It's not unique in any sense.

Thank you for espousing Net Utility.

If Oscar doesn't get the Boots, then what sense is there in comparing them?

You compare Oscar + the number of turns that Jill saves through the Boots against Marcia + the number of turns that Marcia saves through the Boots. Or, alternatively, Oscar, versus Marcia + the number of turns that Marcia saves through the Boots - the number of turns that the optimum alternative would save through the boots (also known as the opportunity cost). After all, we always have a pair of Boots to give out, whether Marcia exists or not, and they always save us turns,

We compare individual characters to each other and determine how much faster they help us to clear the game;

That's not what anyone does. Unless you're comparing how the characters do in a solo, you compare a given team + Oscar against a given team + Jill. What else could "cut turns" even mean?

we don't compare teams to each other.

But by your arguments, we have to. We always have a flier, according to you. We always have Laguz performing smite chains. In the case of Oscar, we always have Kieran, and in the case of Kieran, we always have Oscar (since their turn count savings versus Titania are reliant on the presence of the other). You assume that we have all the other elements needed to perform these amazing 3 turns and 4 turns for Marcia, so why can't the same be done for Oscar? You're the one that wants to argue pure, net, marginal utility of Marcia and Jill versus their optimal alternative. You're the one that says that Titania is useless and should never be used after Chapter 11 because she loses 2 turns in the purest, most optimal playthroughs. Is that not the same as saying that Titania's "team" is worse than Oscar's "team": because Oscar sure as hell isn't delivering those turncounts singlehandedly, not when Oscar is performing a rescue chain with another character (Kieran) to move another character (Mordecai) to shove a third character (Marcia) after she's shoved by two more characters (Lethe and Muarim) and given the Boots by a Thief (Volke) and a mass of BEXP (courtesy of Titania since she helps us hit difficult BEXP targets in earlygame). How is it that Oscar can take credit for all these other contributions to suddenly be better when he's at best, 1/8th of the solution?

[Chiki]

You compare Oscar + the number of turns that Jill saves through the Boots against Marcia + the number of turns that Marcia saves through the Boots. Or, alternatively, Oscar, versus Marcia + the number of turns that Marcia saves through the Boots - the number of turns that the optimum alternative would save through the boots (also known as the opportunity cost). After all, we always have a pair of Boots to give out, whether Marcia exists or not, and they always save us turns,

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, are you comparing the number of turns a team with Boots Jill and Oscar saves compared to the number of turns Boots Marcia and Oscar saves in a playthrough?

[aku chi]

I'm curious. How exactly do you guys handle Ike seizing? I mean, even if you give it no value at all you simply cannot beat most chapters unless Ike is there on the seize spot. Does it simply not get mentioned? Does he get transported but not fight unless mentioned so? Or what?

The way I think about it:

Ike gets no credit for the act of seizing (or escaping). But the fact that Ike will be at the front lines in seize chapters shouldn't be ignored. Ike does get credit for everything else he does to help complete the chapter. So, in chapter 10, Ike probably gets no credit at all for the clear, because he's likely going to be carried to the escape square (literally or figuratively). In C28, on the other hand, Ike has stellar combat that is crucial in every efficient clear of the chapter, so he'll get a lot of credit.

Another way to think about it: Ike's contributions in each chapter are measured against a theoretical Lord with 1 HP and 0 in every other stat. If Ike contributes no more than this theoretical Lord (like in certaan C10 clears), he gets no credit.

Nor did I say you claimed he was necessary; I was simply saying that being useful /=/ necessary. Is it easy to conceive of a strategy that 3-turns 11 without promoted Oscar? Yes. Why should this contribution matter?

If this is your standard, then none of Jill's contributions (except in C25 and perhaps C28) should matter. Marcia can do what Jill does in every other chapter.

Now that you understand how absurd your standard is, consider mine: how much can this unit contribute to an efficient clear. Oscar can, if promoted, play a crucial role in the most efficient clear of C10. A 3-turn clear of C10 requires two 9-mov units: one to kill an enemy blocking the Escape squares and one to ferry Ike. Titania and Lethe are two such options. Promoted Oscar is another. Promoted Oscar, moreover, may be required in the most efficient clear that also recruits all units. If you have >1800 Bexp, I presume promoted Marcia could do what promoted Oscar does here.

If everyone is equally good at killing Ravens (except flying Marcia), why should anyone's contributions matter? They all cancel each other out since it can be replicated by anyone. It's not unique in any sense.

Calill, Tanith, Makalov, and, relevantly, Jill cannot kill the C12 Ravens. Oscar can.

If Oscar doesn't get the Boots, then what sense is there in comparing them? We compare individual characters to each other and determine how much faster they help us to clear the game; we don't compare teams to each other.

I don't understand the question. We're evaluating whether Oscar or Jill is more valuable in an efficient playthrough of Path of Radiance. Part of that analysis is determining how, when given their optimal resource bundle, they help us complete the game efficiently. Another part of that analysis is how valuable that optimal resource bundle would be when its elements are given to the next best recipients (the opportunity cost of the resource bundle). Because that second part is notoriously difficult and controversial, I crafted an argument that could demonstrate Oscar > Jill while only comparing how they help us complete the game efficiently. I did this by evaluating Oscar and Jill's contributions when they each receive Jill's optimal resource bundle. Because, in this argument, they are taking the same resource bundle, they suffer the same opportunity cost for those resources. As it turned out, Oscar and Jill were very nearly equally helpful when considered in this light. I am now pointing out that any (near) tie should favor Oscar, because this argument itself favored Jill. If Oscar receives his optimal resource bundle, the Boots are free to be used by a better recipient (Marcia, Reyson, or even Jill). As a result, Oscar's personal contributions are less stellar (he cannot, for instance 3-turn C24). But he no longer suffers the opportunity costs of taking the Boots, as Jill does.

[Hawk King]

I did Chp 10 is 3 turns, opened both cell doors AND killed the boss for the master seal without a promoted Oscar. So promoting him for Chp 10 would only be significant for a 5 turn stealth clear.

In Chp 11, a promoted Boyd is more valuable than a promoted Oscar. I could do Chp 11 in 3 turns with Titania arriving and Boyd killing the armor knight.

Promoting Oscar early really doesnt do anything special. If anything, it makes Titania become obsolete a little sooner.

[Defeatist Elitist]

You know something is wrong when people come into a tier list thread to make ad hominem arguments.

why can't you people say anything other than

[-Cynthia-]

This tier list doesn't assume specific characters on our team (except for forced characters). We're much more likely to use Marcia than Rolf for instance, but it's not guaranteed- thus specific strategies involving things like Shove chains may not always be relevant. This tier list is supposed to analyze characters with a variety of team compositions, not just the "best" one.

[Snowy_One]

This tier list doesn't assume specific characters on our team (except for forced characters). We're much more likely to use Marcia than Rolf for instance, but it's not guaranteed- thus specific strategies involving things like Shove chains may not always be relevant. This tier list is supposed to analyze characters with a variety of team compositions, not just the "best" one.

This is one of my annoyances with the list. We're supposed to analyze a variety of teams, right? So what about teams that DON'T use Titania? Or Marcia? Or whoever else? It seems that the list blanket-assumes that we use Titania to plough through the early-game and then use fliers to achieve a low turn count later on, but what happens when those units aren't fielded? Or not used in that manner? Doesn't seem to come up a lot IMO.