FE9 Tier list v3

[Chiki]

there are 10 melee enemy units; you're telling me that all but 2-3 of them are going to go after units that can counter or have higher concrete durability than shinon (remember that shinon has provoke)?

or that ike/soren are not going to somehow die, because ike's durability is pretty much trash at that point in the game?

when i think of marcia and jill in FE9, i think about my FE6 speedrun where i RNG abuse str level ups on thany and she caps str at like 12/7. except that you don't have to RNG abuse in this game to get a flying goddess.

and the thing is, FE6 marcus is absolutely ridiculous in that game on NM. he ORKOs basically everything at least up until chapter 8 and probably after that as well. but after chapter 8, a thany solo is so much better that marcus almost never sees use again. this is basically FE9 in a nutshell; just replace marcus with titania and thany with marcia or jill.

so i am perfectly convinced that marcia and jill are both "better" than titania. they break this game apart like in a speedrun except you don't even have to rely on absurd luck to get them there. probably the best part is that you can actually use both.

well, no, because you're just going to throw around your "optimal resource bundle" jargon and pretend like you understand exactly how much better titania is than jill because you're an economics major.

what does the tier list topic have anything to do with this argument? do you arbitrarily lose all capacity to understand arguments outside of that topic? i think my rhetorical argument is pretty clear, and i really can't be bothered to go on a chapter by chapter basis because it's impossible to convince you if i assert one thing and you just say otherwise.

like, just writing chapters off as "flying important" and "flying irrelevant" doesn't exactly reveal how much better flying is than being grounded.

Pretty funny how you're nitpicking even though you have a legitimate opinion and can't even bother to contribute. It's like you're trying to be annoying.

Anyway, I'm doing a playthrough up to Chapter 8 without touching Titania. Curious how many turns I'll be able to save...

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[-Cynthia-]

I'll note that reliability is important as well as lowering turn counts- Titania is good for reliable strategies early game because of her high hit rates and durability.

[dondon151]

Pretty funny how you're nitpicking even though you have a legitimate opinion and can't even bother to contribute. It's like you're trying to be annoying.

pretty funny how you're dodging the question even though you seem to have so much to say on the subject

there's nothing to say on the subject when this entire argument is you and aku chi squabbling over two diametrically opposing metrics and hawk king is on the sidelines trying to get a piece of the action

i stand by my previously stated opinion that neither you nor aku chi would agree with because i acknowledge both the fact that the existence of tanith and jill cheapens marcia's contributions and that a pure net utility metric is misrepresentative of a unit's worth because so many units have exactly 0 worth under that metric.

Edited August 11, 2012 by dondon151

[aku chi]

Anyway, I'm doing a playthrough up to Chapter 8 without touching Titania. Curious how many turns I'll be able to save...

You mean lose.

I appreciate the effort and am curious about the results. I would like to request that you play on fixed mode and (echoing Cynthia) that you document the reliability of your clears. I also recommend that you play chapter 9 to confirm that, without Titania, you cannot get a 4-turn clear (nor a 6-turn clear while recruiting Marcia). Best of luck!

a pure net utility metric is misrepresentative of a unit's worth because so many units have exactly 0 worth under that metric.

Net utility towards an efficient clear with no cost applied to deployment is the metric of this tier list, unless I am much mistaken. And under this metric, even the abysmal Ena comes out positive. Her ability to shove a couple units in her two chapters is a greater contribution than zero.

Edited August 11, 2012 by aku chi

[Chiki]

I'll note that reliability is important as well as lowering turn counts- Titania is good for reliable strategies early game because of her high hit rates and durability.

Good point, but there are some LTC strategies that are unreliable even for Titania. The chapter aku chi calls Titania's best, Chapter 7, is actually not that reliable. My 4-turn strategy has a reliability of maybe 20% due to Titania having to kill things with the Hammer. aku chi himself says 5-turning Chapter 7 is around 75% reliable, whereas 6 turning it is almost 100%.

I can't think of any unreliable strategies with Marcia.

I also recommend that you play chapter 9 to confirm that, without Titania, you cannot get a 4-turn clear (nor a 6-turn clear while recruiting Marcia). Best of luck!

After chapter 8, Oscar can be replaced by Titania anyway, so I think it'd be smarter to simply have them change their roles instead of not using Titania altogether.

Edited August 11, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

Good point, but there are some LTC strategies that are unreliable even for Titania. The chapter aku chi calls Titania's best, Chapter 7, is actually not that reliable. My 4-turn strategy has a reliability of maybe 20% due to Titania having to kill things with the Hammer. aku chi himself says 5-turning Chapter 7 is around 75% reliable, whereas 6 turning it is almost 100%.

Way to cherry-pick the only clear I documented in the first seven chapters where Titania's contribution is to any extent unreliable (aside from the C3 2-turn clear - which is an admitted longshot that can be gracefully transitioned into a 3-turn clear).

I can't think of any unreliable strategies with Marcia.

There are plenty of Marcia clears with middling reliability. In the C14 2-turn clear, she has a ~25% chance to die to Gashilama in most circumstances (if you give her an Arms Scroll and a Steel Sword forge, her reliability increases). In C15, the solo Marcia 2-turn clear has a ~75% reliability. In both cases, there exist equally fast, more reliable clears (granted: in two of the more reliable C15 clears, Marcia plays a prominent role). I'm not as familiar with lategame clears, but I expect Marcia can face non-trivial chances of dying in C25 and C28.

[dondon151]

Net utility towards an efficient clear with no cost applied to deployment is the metric of this tier list, unless I am much mistaken. And under this metric, even the abysmal Ena comes out positive. Her ability to shove a couple units in her two chapters is a greater contribution than zero.

Apparently, if it doesn't save turns, then the contribution is zero!

But here's the gist of the problem: let's say that there were 2 hypothetical units that were exactly the same in all aspects. Even if these units were good units, their net utility is both zero, because the benefit of using one of them is exactly the same as the benefit of using the next best alternative (the other one), hence they're relatively worthless - but clearly, they're not.

[aku chi]

Apparently, if it doesn't save turns, then the contribution is zero!

But here's the gist of the problem: let's say that there were 2 hypothetical units that were exactly the same in all aspects. Even if these units were good units, their net utility is both zero, because the benefit of using one of them is exactly the same as the benefit of using the next best alternative (the other one), hence they're relatively worthless - but clearly, they're not.

I've never argued either of those two things.

With respect to the second paragraph, I believe you're misunderstanding an old argument of mine when I was arguing Oscar > Marcia. My argument there was with regards to opportunity costs. For instance: because Boots Tanith could replicate all of the contributions Boots Marcia could make in chapter 18 and beyond, the additional contributions Marcia gains when given the Boots is outweighed (at the very least) by the opportunity cost of the Boots going to Tanith - who could then make the same contributions. That is not that same as saying that any contributions Marcia makes after C17 have no value because Tanith can make the same contributions. My argument applied to the marginal benefit Marcia derives from the Boots.

Now, I did overstate this argument when I defined the opportunity cost of Marcia's Bexp dump as the value that Jill would get from the same Bexp dump. I owed up to that overstatement here. I have mentioned in the past that it is difficult to evaluate opportunity costs. I am not immune to this. Therefore, in my two most recent arguments, Oscar > Jill and Titania > Marcia, I crafted arguments that makes it unnecessary to evaluate opportunity costs.

[dondon151]

That is not that same as saying that any contributions Marcia makes after C17 have no value because Tanith can make the same contributions. My argument applied to the marginal benefit Marcia derives from the Boots.

Then are you admitting that Jushiro's (somewhat flawed) comparison of Titania vs. Marcia is correct? That is, Titania herself is responsible for only a 9 turn reduction over the course of the entire game, while Marcia herself is responsible for a 28 turn reduction? Even if those numbers were off by a fair amount, Marcia has a large buffer over Titania with respect to their gross utility...

Now, I don't completely agree with that either, because the presence of Jill and Tanith definitely cheapens Marcia's net worth (the same way that Oscar and Kieran cheapen Titania's net worth for the latter 2/3 of the game). Like Anouleth pointed out earlier, Marcia's net worth over Jill is only ~5 turns (in addition to the cost of recruiting Jill, which is ignored).

Obviously, Jushiro's Titania vs. Marcia comparison is somewhat disingenuous because it assumes that Titania's contributions are replaceable by Oscar and Kieran's contributions, but does not assume something similar with Marcia's contributions. Even so, I'm confident that even were we to account for this oversight by a significant amount, Marcia still will account for more turns reduced than Titania (let's say, oh, 28 vs. 22). However, using a metric where "opportunity costs of contributions" are fully accounted for, Titania will account for more turns reduced than Marcia (5 vs. 9). So... which unit is better?

And this is essentially what you two have been arguing about for the past however many pages. Unstoppable force meets immovable object, etc.

Edited August 12, 2012 by dondon151

[aku chi]

Then are you admitting that Jushiro's (somewhat flawed) comparison of Titania vs. Marcia is correct?

No.

Even if those numbers were off by a fair amount,

They were.

Obviously, Jushiro's Titania vs. Marcia comparison is somewhat disingenuous because it assumes that Titania's contributions are replaceable by Oscar and Kieran's contributions, but does not assume something similar with Marcia's contributions.

Bingo! This is not a matter of disingenuity; it's a flawed analysis on its face. It's so flawed I refuse to respond to any more of the details for fear of anyone implicitly inferring that the argument itself has merit.

Even so, I'm confident that even were we to account for this oversight by a significant amount, Marcia still will account for more turns reduced than Titania (let's say, oh, 28 vs. 22). However, using a metric where "opportunity costs of contributions" are fully accounted for, Titania will account for more turns reduced than Marcia (5 vs. 9). So... which unit is better?

And this is essentially what you two have been arguing about for the past however many pages. Unstoppable force meets immovable object, etc.

Wrong. You're reading things I haven't written. I am absolutely convinced that Titania is more valuable than Marcia even when both receive Marcia's optimal resource bundle (that is, after all, the argument I made). I have not, and have not needed, to rely on the fact that Titania actually dominates Marcia due to the opportunity costs of the resources Marcia needs (and Titania doesn't) to make her optimal contributions. In short, Titania is more valuable than Marcia no matter how you look at it.

[Hawk King]

Aeine, with 20 LVs with a SPD band Soren can be a level lower, and giving Soren a speedwings is a better use than giving it to Titania for Chp 11 and then dropping her from the team after that. And I did have unpromoted Marcia arrive in Chp 11. I just found out that a different 3 turn strategy exists.

From Chp 12- endgame, Titania has less potential than both Kieran and Oscar. She requires valuable statboosters to match them statistically, and she lacks the wieght that they have. The most efficient "use" of Titania is to drop her from the team in Chp 12, in favor of 2 superior alternatives. Yes, she CAN be used all game but why would we use Titania who is a 3rd or 4th option when we have Oscar, Kieran, and Astrid?

Despite being a benchwarmer after Chp 11, I still think Titania's earlygame contributions earn her a Top tier position.

[-Cynthia-]

Aeine, with 20 LVs with a SPD band Soren can be a level lower, and giving Soren a speedwings is a better use than giving it to Titania for Chp 11 and then dropping her from the team after that. And I did have unpromoted Marcia arrive in Chp 11. I just found out that a different 3 turn strategy exists.

From Chp 12- endgame, Titania has less potential than both Kieran and Oscar. She requires valuable statboosters to match them statistically, and she lacks the wieght that they have. The most efficient "use" of Titania is to drop her from the team in Chp 12, in favor of 2 superior alternatives. Yes, she CAN be used all game but why would we use Titania who is a 3rd or 4th option when we have Oscar, Kieran, and Astrid?

Despite being a benchwarmer after Chp 11, I still think Titania's earlygame contributions earn her a Top tier position.

How much does Titania actually fall behind Oscar and Kieran anyway? Is it a significant enough difference that Titania is a "benchwarmer" compared to these other characters? Let's look at a comparison around Chapter 12, giving Oscar and Kieran both a little BEXP.

--/7 Titania 38 HP 15 Str 17 Skl 17 Spd `14 Lck 13 Def 10 Res

15/0 Oscar 33 HP 11 Str 12 Skl 12 Spd 9 Lck 12 Def 4 Res

15/0 Kieran 32 HP 12.5 Str 11.5 Skl 13 Spd 9 Lck 11 Def 2 Res

Titania beats them both here. Now if we BEXP them to promotion...

--/7 Titania 38 HP 15 Str 17 Skl 17 Spd `14 Lck 13 Def 10 Res

20/1 Oscar 38 HP 16 Str 16.5 Skl 17 Spd 10 Lck 16 Def 8 Res

20/1 Kieran 38 HP 17 Str 16 Skl 17 Spd 10 Lck 15 Def 6 Res

So if we BEXP them all the way to promotion, we get three very similar looking units.

At some unspecified point in the future...

--/13 Titania 43 HP 17 Str 20 Skl 20 Spd 16 Lck 16 Def 12 Res

20/12 Oscar 44 HP 21 Str 22 Skl 22 Spd 13 Lck 20 Def 11 Res

20/12 Kieran 44 HP 22.5 Str 21.5 Skl 22 Spd 13 Lck 20 Def 10 Res

20/14 Astrid 40 HP 21 Str 26 Skl 24 Spd 16 Lck 18 Def 14 Res

I didn't include the Knight Ward, which could likely boost all their speed a few points. The biggest difference is Def, but PoR enemies don't usually hit enough to make the Def lead relevant and durability is considerably boosted through supports. The Str difference is probably the most relevant, but I'll note that Titania likely has a Mt lead at 1 range over Oscar and Astrid at this point due to being able to use Silver Axes (either Titania uses a Silver forge and wins, or they use a Steel forge and she uses a Silver Axe, saving us a forge use).

tl;dr Titania "falling off" has been highly exaggerated I think and given how weak most PoR enemies are you'll barely notice the difference most of the time.

Edited August 12, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[PKL]

I agree with Cynthia except for one thing: Why not compare Titania with the same amount of BEXP given to oscar and kieran? Why is it that Kieran and Oscar can get BEXP'd but not titania?

[Chiki]

I agree with Cynthia except for one thing: Why not compare Titania with the same amount of BEXP given to oscar and kieran? Why is it that Kieran and Oscar can get BEXP'd but not titania?

She takes twice as much bexp as they do.

Aeine, with 20 LVs with a SPD band Soren can be a level lower, and giving Soren a speedwings is a better use than giving it to Titania for Chp 11 and then dropping her from the team after that

1. I never defended giving Speedwings to Titania in Chapter 11. I only did it for the sake of convenience.

2. How on earth can you justify training a Mage to Level 5 promoted and giving him the Speedwings by Chapter 15? Weren't you the one who advocated that we spend a lot of bexp on a unit like Boyd for Chapter 9 AND give Marcia a lot of bexp? How on earth can we train a Mage to Level 5 promoted by the time Chapter 15 shows up? That makes no sense at all.

Anyway:

Chapter 1: 3 turns (30% reliability), 4 turns (reliably)

Edited August 12, 2012 by Aeine

[CT075]

She takes twice as much bexp as they do.

a level 20/10 oscar takes equally as much bexp as a level 20/10 titania

[Hawk King]

Um Aeine, a LV 5 promoted Soren is the ALTERNATIVE to using Marcia.

Titania faces risks of death in Chp 9 and 11. Having 4 less DEF is pretty big. And the 4-5 STR is huge too. Not to mention the fact that a few of Oscar and Kieran's stats will be 1-2 point higher than average due to bands and the Knight ward.

Steel axes give 2 Wexp and are usable at rank E axes. Kieran will have no trouble getting to A rank when Silver becomes available, and if you know what you're doing Oscar should also be able to reach A axes in time.

Aku chi,

A LV 20/2 Oscar with a few STR band LV ups can ORKO the boss of Chp 9 with an iron axe forge, giving us a 4 turn clear without even deploying Titania. And a 6 turn clear with Marcia recruited requires too many units to give any one single unit the credit for it.

[aku chi]

I'll leave it to Anouleth to argue how competitive Titania is (compared with other Paladins) lategame. He seems to enjoy it...

Steel axes give 2 Wexp and are usable at rank E axes. Kieran will have no trouble getting to A rank when Silver becomes available, and if you know what you're doing Oscar should also be able to reach A axes in time.

A Axes for Kieran is a cinch. A Axes for Oscar is anything but. Still, Oscar can cruise to A Lances, so he can slightly best Titania's Atk late-game.

Aku chi,

A LV 20/2 Oscar with a few STR band LV ups can ORKO the boss of Chp 9 with an iron axe forge, giving us a 4 turn clear without even deploying Titania.

How does Ike get to the seize square by turn 4? I had to rescue/take/drop with both Titania and Oscar.

And a 6 turn clear with Marcia recruited requires too many units to give any one single unit the credit for it.

That's silly. Titania (or promoted Oscar) is the most noteworthy element of the clear. Titania clears out enemies, helps kill the boss, and helps transport Ike to the seize square. It's only in the last of these tasks that Titania has a bunch of company.

[Chiki]

Um Aeine, a LV 5 promoted Soren is the ALTERNATIVE to using Marcia.

Yeah, for one chapter. No one in their right mind is going to dump bexp into Soren for one chapter.

That makes no sense.

a level 20/10 oscar takes equally as much bexp as a level 20/10 titania

Uh.. we're talking about giving earlygame bexp.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Aeine

[CT075]

so are you telling me that it takes less bexp to bring oscar from level ~8 to level 20/1 (or whatever) than it does to bring titania from level /2 to level /6 (also whatever)

the argument is that we dump equal amounts of bexp into both, not that we give both an equal number of levels

[Chiki]

so are you telling me that it takes less bexp to bring oscar from level ~8 to level 20/1 (or whatever) than it does to bring titania from level /2 to level /6 (also whatever)

the argument is that we dump equal amounts of bexp into both, not that we give both an equal number of levels

Why would you give Titania exp from level 2 to level 6 when she barely benefits from it? Just a few stat-ups.

[CT075]

why is oscar the only one allowed to take that bexp

[Chiki]

why is oscar the only one allowed to take that bexp

You seem like a smart guy, I shouldn't have to explain this to you.

Oscar should be around level 14 at the beginning of Chapter 11. Titania should be level 5.

At the base of Chapter 11:

Lvl 14 Oscar: 32 HP, 11 Str, 11.5 Skl, 12 Spd, 11.8 Def, 3.3 Res, 8.3 Luk

Lvl 5 Titania: 36.2 HP, 13.8 Str, 15.4 Skl, 16 Spd, 12.6 Def, 8.8 Res, 12.8 Luk

Oscar needs 900 bexp to promote. With that same bexp, we can get Titania to level 9.

Lvl 1 Oscar: 38.3 HP, 15.6 Str, 16.5 Skl, 16.6 Spd, 15.9 Def, 8.1 Res, 10.1 Luk

Lvl 9 Titania: 39.4 HP, 15.6 Str, 17.8 Skl, 18.0 Spd, 14.2 Def, 10.6 Res, 14.6 Luk

Why on earth would I give Titania bexp to increase her str, skill, def and spd by two when I can have two amazingly strong Paladins anyway? Do you not realize how stupid that is?

[CT075]

without having actual numbers i would have zero way of figuring that out and i truly don't care enough to go find them

regardless i'll concede and leave the actual argument to someone who's done minimum ltc on this game

Edited August 12, 2012 by CT075

[Chiki]

without having actual numbers i would have zero way of figuring that out and i truly don't care enough to go find them

regardless i'll concede and leave the actual argument to someone who's done minimum ltc on this game

...I'm the only person I know of who has.

Here are the resources:

http://serenesforest.net/fe9/bonus_exp.htm

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=oscar&game=9e

http://fea.fewiki.net/fea.php?character=titania&game=9e

Edited August 12, 2012 by Aeine

[Hawk King]

Aeine, a promoted Soren makes a ton of other contributions. With him and 2 paladins a 3 turn of 17-1 is possible. He can ORKO Shisharam with siege tomes, And we need a siege tome user for a bunch of senarios anyway.

Aku chi, for Chp 9.

Oscar rescues Ike on turn 2 and moves to a square 2 spaces away from triggering the reinforcements. On turn 3 he moves in with a hand axe 2 spaces below the mage on the right and drops Ike down. Mage suicdes and yhe knight moves out of the way. turn 4 Oscar ORKOs Kotaff with Iron axw forge and Ike siezes.

For the 6 turn clear of 9 with Marcia recruited, Boyd can kill the boss better than Titania can, and a promoted Oscar can do it better too. Not to mention they also will get more Cexp than her. Yes you need all 3 of Titania, Oscar, and promoted Boyd to allow Ike to sieze on turn 6. They are all equally important.