FE9 Tier list v3

[Chiki]

Mia is only one of two units who can actually cut a turn in Chapter 9, the other being Boyd. Those two are the only ones who can cut a turn from that chapter, so both have relatively unique utility.

You can argue that it's a waste of exp, but it really isn't. There's enough exp to get promoted Mia by chapter 9, Marcia promoted by 12, Kieran and Oscar promoted by 17-2, and Ike at a decently high level by 18. Also enough exp to promote Mist and your siege tome user.

Giving Mia enough exp to promote has little opportunity cost because no turns are lost from it.

Otherwise they are really mostly equal; neither is cutting a turn in an efficiency playthrough after Chapter 9.

I'd put Mia slightly over Zihark.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Olwen

[Espinosa]

The opportunity cost is all the combat and bonus experience that Mia needs to take that others don't get, not the turns it costs. If you haven't forgotten, this is the reason why Titania still tops the tier list. Others, like Shinon and Gatrie, also help cutting a turn in one or more maps, and do so at absolutely no cost; we're not giving them any more credit than we have for it. There are many ways how one can play the game, and not all of them should involve Boyd/Mia promoted for chapter 9. Aside from the turn shaved off in this particular chapter, a promoted foot unit as fast as earlygame is a bit of a luxury.

[Chiki]

But why care about the opportunity cost if no turns are lost?

Tier lists are measured based on cutting turns and reliability. I lost no turns nor did I have to RNG abuse further by giving Mia a crapload of exp. So why is this cost so great when in reality it doesn't change a thing?

And I completely disagree with Titania being at the top of the list, and so do many others.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Olwen

[Espinosa]

But why care about the opportunity cost if no turns are lost?

Tier lists are measured based on cutting turns and reliability. I lost no turns nor did I have to RNG abuse further by giving Mia a crapload of exp. So why is this cost so great when in reality it doesn't change a thing?

And I completely disagree with Titania being at the top of the list, and so do many others.

Taken out of Vykan's tier list FAQ:

Characters are compared based on how they contribute towards an efficient playthrough. By efficiency I am mainly referring to turn count and resource expenditure. Normally you’d expect a high tier unit to require fairly basic weapons and items while giving great returns in terms of their combat usefulness. Conversely, a lower ranked unit would probably require a lot of resources while giving less satisfactory combat returns.

Mia eats up a lot of resources (just because you can promote every useful unit just on time before they risk screwing you out of a low turn completion doesn't mean Mia's not competing with, say, Makalov, Jill or Astrid who also have meaningful contributions not linked to exclusive rights of cutting off a turn, when trained) and pays back with little of value.

Titania's case is similar. Marcia costs 2-3 turns just to be recruited (granted, without her you lose quite a bit more) and isn't skilled at combat before a heavy BEXP investment (possibly also stat boosters like Seraph Robe). Meanwhile Titania has been dominating the game and feeding on bosskill experience to continue her domination for a long enough time.

Also correct me if wrong, but your recentest run was played on Random Mode, as you wouldn't have met the magic numbers necessary for all sorts of tasks if your characters had average levels. That definitely compromises the reliability in that logic, and extra BEXP would be required to have your characters function adequately - BEXP that Mia had part in swallowing up at an early point of the game.

[Chiki]

Vykan doesn't mention resource expenditure just because he likes the look of his convoy when it's more full. The reason Vykan mentions resource expenditure is because it serves a greater purpose (low turns and reliability). Otherwise we'd make Volke top tier for making out convoys look fuller, which is absurd.

As for my playthrough, it's true that I played on random mode, but Hawk King tried getting to around chapter 12 by giving Boyd a load of bexp and he didn't complain about his units being weak. This was on fixed mode.

Units are superfluously powerful in this game anyway.

[Snowy_One]

True, but Zihark can hit things harder than Mia without Muarim (or any other support partner) around.

Sure enough he does. Rhys has finite Physic range, and with 6 promoted move the distance between him and your mounted unit with Boots increases substantially. It's not entirely unlikely that we're Sealing Rhys since he levels quite slowly and a BEXP investment into him is not a very profitable decision.

If Rhys's support with Mia activates, that means Mia didn't advance very far. While there are some situations where Mia might have something to do close to one's starting position, they shouldn't occur too often in efficient play.

Reyson might also have better things to do than help glue Rhys to Mia.

It doesn't really matter you know. Rhys is, quite possibly, the second-easiest support to keep in range due to his physic staves. Muarim doesn't have move-again (without equipping the ring at least which ruins his band). The ONLY time he has trouble in LTC or otherwise is if he gets paired with a high-movement unit who is always on the front lines. Neither Zihark or Mia are that. If Rhys really has trouble keeping in range, Muarim has it triple as his two primary uses are combat (which require him to be next to a foe) and shoving/smiting (which require him to be next to an ally). Either Reyson will need to be refreshing, you will have to do a lot more planning, or Muarim will be acting like a post and just standing around near Zihark for his bonuses. Rhys will at least do something, even if that something doesn't matter a lot in a LTC run. Vantage, Rhys.

Mia with her supports following her around + a drop vs Zihark may not be such a fair argument. How about I propose we argue Mia with basic weaponry against Zihark with a Steel sword forge (and later Silver forge)? Except I won't propose anything of the kind.

There is nothing saying Zihark can't take a drop or have his supports follow him. But his supports are Muarim (who is only good for avoid and some DEF), Ilyana (DEF and hit), and Brom (his only support that gives him attack, but ends with him engaged to Meg), so they don't really help his offense out unless he takes Brom. Even then it's only 1 attack, so it's not exactly earth-shattering. He can take a drop, sure, but that subverts the whole point of using him over Mia (which is that he doesn't need a STR boost). And he CAN take a skill, but Mia has him firmly thrashed there no matter what he does since, even if Mia and Zihark end up with the same skills, Mia doesn't need a vantage scroll which is easily one of the most valuable scrolls around while Zihark needs a vantage and possibly more depending on the skill choice.

Let's remember that Zihark and Mia are foot units, ones we're not (or shouldn't be) terribly dependent on for fulfilling most chapter objectives. They clear the way, wander off in another direction or shove once or twice. Bosskilling isn't so bad that we want to drag an additional unit for this purpose.

So why are we dragging Muarim in? Not to mention potentially giving up vantage to make Zihark compare to Mia?

29% is close to 1/3 of all attacks. When doubling, Zihark has a 50% chance to activate Adept. Paired with a killer weapon/Vague Katti/forge with crit, Zihark's chances of one-rounding an enemy he fails to double normally skyrockets. Mia has nothing of the kind.

As people enjoy reminding me, 20/20 isn't the only point in the game that matters. Zihark ranges between a 13 and a 29 throughout the game, lower if he doesn't level-cap. That means his 'average' skill will likely be around 20 or so. One out of every five, not one out of every three.

How many Swordmaster skill combos do you know? There's not exactly a whole lot of choice. Vantage/Wrath is no doubt effective but still leaves you at risk of death (considering you've already lost more than half of your HP)

Vantage/Wrath: No duh.

Vantage/Adept: Decent chance to kill an enemy beforehand (natural kill chance + SM crit boost + potential of adept)

Vantage/Guard: Not ideal, but can prevent an incoming attack outright.

Vantage/Resolve: VERY risky, but between the STR, critical, and speed the SM becomes a very glass cannon. People will wanna give resolve to Ike though.

Gamble+hit supports: With enough it can allow Gamble a decent chance to hit.

Just the ones off the top of my head.

Most of Mia's contributions involve a substantial investment. At base, Mia's not doing a whole lot; maybe just chip at some enemies in chapter 7 and help save the villages in chapter 9. The more you want from Mia, the larger investment you have to make, and you never get much for your bargain. Zihark certainly isn't somebody worth worshipping, but he's better than Mia when both exist.

Remember, anything bad about Mia's stats that you say also largely applies to Zihark as their stats are largely similar.

However, it doesn't matter. Even if Zihark joined with capped stats, he still can't time-travel. The turn-cuts Mia can provide before Zihark joins are something Zihark simply cannot reproduce. So, what turn-count reductions can Zihark provide to counter Mia's? Oh, wait.

Let's remember that Zihark and Mia are foot units, ones we're not (or shouldn't be) terribly dependent on for fulfilling most chapter objectives. They clear the way, wander off in another direction or shove once or twice. Bosskilling isn't so bad that we want to drag an additional unit for this purpose.

None.

But Muarim is all three in one product! He has the mobility of a mounted unit with the Demi Band,

No move-again and a lack of flight.

shoves and is good for smiting when you get the scroll,

Unless he spends his days shoving/smiting horse units and avoiding fighting (something that would keep him away from Zihark), useless.

and his utility is one of the reasons to use him. Banding Muarim deprives him of 1 AS and 3 Mt. It's no disaster and he's still doing great in midgame at base level, combat wise and being in the right places at the right time. He shouldn't run around untransformed getting into enemies' range, I'd argue.

His gauge starts at 5, so he will be without the band, and earlier you were telling me how oh-so-important Zihark's 3 STR lead on Mia (which could be fixed) was. So the fact that Muarim both loses 3 MT and is stuck wielding a weapon with only 1 MT more than an unforged steel sword should matter a whole lot.

Are you saying Ilyana will be 20/9 when Muarim joins? Possible certainly, but I doubt any other decision taken in a playthrough where this happens can be taken seriously. Also, you're welcome to switch a unit out any time they're not contributing much on a particular map. Muarim's midgame combat and lategame utility (there can never be too much shoving) is unique and you get it at absolutely no cost, whereas Ilyana has many competitors who do some of the stuff with certain benefits she lacks. Soren has Adept much like Zihark, for instance; Tormod gets extra movement and could work on staff rank for Rescue, and Calill has great bases and requires no Arms Scrolls for siege tomes.

This isn't about Ilyana, or even Muarim. This is about giving Zihark a support with a unit who slacks off hugetime in the late game, has transform issues and possibly STR and SPD issues as well, just so he can try to compete with a unit who is both more flexible and is capable of actually helping us to save turns before he even joins and against which his primary advantage is a little bit of MT that CAN be fixed multiple ways (and even overcome him potentially) and avoid which hasn't been shown to help lower turncounts yet in the slightest by you.

[Vorena]

You were judging Mia with your personal experience, and I'm judging her with mine. Personal experience is crucial am I right?

Put Mia in the top tier now! Personal experience means all!

Yay! Understood my integral part of personal experience.

Completely misunderstood the other part of limitations. Darn :(

[Life]

I agree with the conclusion but the arguments used are hilariously bad. It's Snowy arguing for Mia so I'm not surprised. But the mass level of retardedness behind Zihark astounds me.

First of all, Vantage is being over-hyped as the greatest skill ever on Mia. Realistically, all it does is may save her from dying to a low HP enemy on the player phase. Unless it can actually be paired with another skill (Wrath + Seraph Robe or Resolve) it's nigh on useless. The reason why Ambush was great on Lex was because he hit hard even with just an Iron Axe. Mia doing very minor chip damage and hoping for about a ~10% critical sometime before promotion strikes me as a funny joke.

I also believe I heard Gamble mentioned somewhere. And I'd like to point out that it's better served on Stefan due to his high Str (19 base). The opportunity cost there is losing out on a free Astra which strikes me more as a positive than a negative.

Also, the idea of supports is quite laughable. Muarim may be Zihark's best support but I think we're forgetting about the Move difference here and the fact that Muarim won't die while midgame Zihark has concrete defenses equivalent to a piece of china. The fact is, unless a support is double Earth, the bonuses are usually negligible. We should praise the heavens that this is the only game where supports are actually realistic to build but they still don't amount to much.

But my biggest issue is the one about a part of the pre-8 BExp not going to Mia because of the opportunity cost. Anyone who has actually played this game (clearly none of you with all of this TheorycraftFE bullshit here) knows that there is a shitton of BExp sitting there for your team after Chapter 7. Of COURSE PEMN but I'll have you know that it's enough to take every fighter you have up to Level 10 (including Mia) and STILL have enough remaining to spend on copious amounts of hookers and blow. I have checked this myself as has Interceptor. Mia walks into Chapter 11 with a retarded level lead on Zihark and proceeds to blow him out of the water. Or to put that as a colourful Game of Thrones analogy, Robb Stark gets a new sword and absolutely devastes the Lannisters, Red Wedding be damned.

But what am I trying to prove here? That these arguments are completely absurd. Mia is better than Zihark even when opportunity costs are considered but you jokers don't know how to argue for either of them.

[aku chi]

First of all, Vantage is being over-hyped as the greatest skill ever on Mia. Realistically, all it does is may save her from dying to a low HP enemy on the player phase. Unless it can actually be paired with another skill (Wrath + Seraph Robe or Resolve) it's nigh on useless. The reason why Ambush was great on Lex was because he hit hard even with just an Iron Axe. Mia doing very minor chip damage and hoping for about a ~10% critical sometime before promotion strikes me as a funny joke.

Generic enemies in this game have 0-5 luck. Swordmaster Mia often has 20-25% crit with generic weapons. With a Killer Edge or the Vague Katti, her crit is over 50%. Swordmaster Mia crit-killing enemies with Vantage is not a rarity. Vantage pairs nicely with Guard (low demand), Adept, and Wrath (and Resolve, but Mia is not getting Resolve).

Also, the idea of supports is quite laughable. Muarim may be Zihark's best support but I think we're forgetting about the Move difference here and the fact that Muarim won't die while midgame Zihark has concrete defenses equivalent to a piece of china. The fact is, unless a support is double Earth, the bonuses are usually negligible. We should praise the heavens that this is the only game where supports are actually realistic to build but they still don't amount to much.

I don't put much stock in supports, but Zihark isn't very frail in this game. He has 34.5 HP and 12 Def at 20/1. Muarim has 45 HP and 14 Def with the Demi Band. There is a difference, but it isn't huge.

But my biggest issue is the one about a part of the pre-8 BExp not going to Mia because of the opportunity cost. Anyone who has actually played this game (clearly none of you with all of this TheorycraftFE bullshit here) knows that there is a shitton of BExp sitting there for your team after Chapter 7. Of COURSE PEMN but I'll have you know that it's enough to take every fighter you have up to Level 10 (including Mia) and STILL have enough remaining to spend on copious amounts of hookers and blow. I have checked this myself as has Interceptor. Mia walks into Chapter 11 with a retarded level lead on Zihark and proceeds to blow him out of the water. Or to put that as a colourful Game of Thrones analogy, Robb Stark gets a new sword and absolutely devastes the Lannisters, Red Wedding be damned.

1. It takes close to all of your pre-C9 Bexp to promote Mia in C9. All to shave one turn off of a chapter under certain conditions. That is what has been discussed.
   
2. Opportunity cost must be taken into account when Mia receives resources, so whether or not Mia supposedly gets a giant Bexp dump before C9 is irrelevant to her ranking.
   
3. Any Bexp Mia takes before Zihark is recruited has a lower cost when given to Zihark, so any comparison where Mia gets more Bexp than Zihark (and Zihark is assumed no other resource advantage) is silly.
   

As for my opinion: Mia and Zihark are so similar that I believe they should be adjacent but I don't much care who is ranked higher. Aiene and I have (relatively) recently discovered a couple significant contributions that Mia can make that Zihark cannot, so I might lean slightly towards Mia > Zihark at this point.

[Shotguner159]

But my biggest issue is the one about a part of the pre-8 BExp not going to Mia because of the opportunity cost. Anyone who has actually played this game (clearly none of you with all of this TheorycraftFE bullshit here) knows that there is a shitton of BExp sitting there for your team after Chapter 7. Of COURSE PEMN but I'll have you know that it's enough to take every fighter you have up to Level 10 (including Mia) and STILL have enough remaining to spend on copious amounts of hookers and blow. I have checked this myself as has Interceptor. Mia walks into Chapter 11 with a retarded level lead on Zihark and proceeds to blow him out of the water. Or to put that as a colourful Game of Thrones analogy, Robb Stark gets a new sword and absolutely devastes the Lannisters, Red Wedding be damned.

Mia with BEXP vs Zihark without BEXP is clearly a fair comparison.

[Narga_Rocks]

Mia with BEXP vs Zihark without BEXP is clearly a fair comparison.

I'm glad you understand. If you are being sarcastic, on the other hand, what is your bexp doing in chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11 if you are sitting on it rather than giving it to Mia? Going to waste, that's right. If you save, say, 400 bexp for Zihark and don't bother using it, that is 400 bexp that isn't helping you in chapters 8, 9, 10, 11. This communist BEXP ideal that some people seem to have is stupid and I was hoping most of the userbase had gotten over it. If Mia uses 1000 bexp from chapter 8 until Geoffrey shows up in chapter 25, is Geoffrey then entitled to immediately get 1000 bexp before you can make a "fair" comparison with Mia? No, because that's stupid.

[Espinosa]

Has the option of promoting Soren before chapter 9 been considered? Both he and Ilyana also get enough weight to give that third Shove to Ike when promoted to Sages; Soren is around for long enough to make the better use of it, and could be given a substantial amount of BEXP (and maybe a Seraph Robe) before chapter 8 to have a better enemy phase there.

Why is Tormod above Soren and Ilyana anyway? Their early-midgame matters with all that chip damage. I understand that Tormod's extra mobility makes him applicable in a variety of situations but he misses out on a large portion (yes) of the game, including the desert (where Soren and Ilyana shine).

[Shotguner159]

I'm glad you understand. If you are being sarcastic, on the other hand, what is your bexp doing in chapters 8, 9, 10, and 11 if you are sitting on it rather than giving it to Mia? Going to waste, that's right. If you save, say, 400 bexp for Zihark and don't bother using it, that is 400 bexp that isn't helping you in chapters 8, 9, 10, 11. This communist BEXP ideal that some people seem to have is stupid and I was hoping most of the userbase had gotten over it. If Mia uses 1000 bexp from chapter 8 until Geoffrey shows up in chapter 25, is Geoffrey then entitled to immediately get 1000 bexp before you can make a "fair" comparison with Mia? No, because that's stupid.

If I'm not using Mia, I'm giving the BEXP to someone else straight away.

Lochem said that Mia with BEXP has a retarded level lead on base Zihark. Mia and everyone else had been given BEXP, but Zihark hadn't. Is Zihark somehow not entitled to getting an equivalent resource to what everyone else had been given?

[Snowy_One]

If I'm not using Mia, I'm giving the BEXP to someone else straight away.

Lochem said that Mia with BEXP has a retarded level lead on base Zihark. Mia and everyone else had been given BEXP, but Zihark hadn't. Is Zihark somehow not entitled to getting an equivalent resource to what everyone else had been given?

I wouldn't say he's 'entitled' to anything. But what does Zihark with Bexp do that Mia with Bexp doesn't do? He's got a bit more STR and that's about it. Conversely, what does Mia with Bexp do that Zihark with Bexp doesn't do? She's able to use it for several chapters earlier and may even have a natural level-lead on him assuming she's been fighting. Promoting Mia early to save a turn MAY be stupid, but it's DOABLE! Promoting Zihark early simply can't shave that same turn off.

So, what does Zihark offer that Mia can't?

[Dark Sage]

Wait Snowy is actually arguing LTCs

I thought he believed that people who did that were as bad as child molesters and people who talk in the movie theater.

[Chiki]

Has the option of promoting Soren before chapter 9 been considered? Both he and Ilyana also get enough weight to give that third Shove to Ike when promoted to Sages; Soren is around for long enough to make the better use of it, and could be given a substantial amount of BEXP (and maybe a Seraph Robe) before chapter 8 to have a better enemy phase there.

Why is Tormod above Soren and Ilyana anyway? Their early-midgame matters with all that chip damage. I understand that Tormod's extra mobility makes him applicable in a variety of situations but he misses out on a large portion (yes) of the game, including the desert (where Soren and Ilyana shine).

Cynthia doesn't listen to anything we suggest, lol. I said that a long time ago, along with Marcia > Titania.

[Life]

Snowy's actually said something smart for once. Congrats, you finally get the argument.

Tormod is above Ilyana also thanks to weapon ranks and the fact that a very small amount of the Chapter 15 BExp makes him outrange footunits and do very respectable damage. Above Soren is a little harder to understand because in practice, that small amount of chip that Soren delivers through chapter 9 is a lot more useful than the numbers suggest.

[Shotguner159]

I wouldn't say he's 'entitled' to anything. But what does Zihark with Bexp do that Mia with Bexp doesn't do? He's got a bit more STR and that's about it. Conversely, what does Mia with Bexp do that Zihark with Bexp doesn't do? She's able to use it for several chapters earlier and may even have a natural level-lead on him assuming she's been fighting. Promoting Mia early to save a turn MAY be stupid, but it's DOABLE! Promoting Zihark early simply can't shave that same turn off.

So, what does Zihark offer that Mia can't?

I'm not arguing that Zihak is better than Mia, I'm arguing that giving Mia BEXP and Zihark nothing then saying "Mia is better than Zihark" is favoritism.

[Narga_Rocks]

If I'm not using Mia, I'm giving the BEXP to someone else straight away.

Good.

Lochem said that Mia with BEXP has a retarded level lead on base Zihark. Mia and everyone else had been given BEXP, but Zihark hadn't. Is Zihark somehow not entitled to getting an equivalent resource to what everyone else had been given?

No, he isn't. You just said yourself that you use the bexp in chapter 8 in chapter 8. When chapter 12 comes around, all's square. If you want to give bexp to unit A, you could instead give it to unit B. If I give Mia 200 bexp in chapter 12, then to compare her to Zihark we should look at him with 200 bexp. But that's only with the chapter 12 alotted bexp. There is literally no reason to consider giving Zihark in chapter 12 equal bexp to what Mia got in chapter 8, because Mia actually did something with it in chapters 8 to 11. Or to look at this another way, the opportunity cost of giving Mia bexp in chapter 8 is that others in chapter 8 can't use it. But do they need it? Interceptor scorched all the enemies in chapter 8 while still getting Mia to level 10 or something with bexp. In other words, they don't need it. So the op cost of giving Mia bexp in chapter 8 is rather low (basically, what does a Boyd a couple levels higher actually do for you in those chapters compared to a Boyd that didn't get Mia's bexp (or the bexp of the unit from chapter 8 to 11 that you would use instead of Mia)). And then she is pretty good in chapters 9 through 11 because she has those extra levels and she can fight for even more exp. But Zihark needs you to save that bexp and do nothing with it for 4 chapters, thus reducing your overall army power for 4 chapters.

Have you ever heard of PV and FV of money? Would you rather I gave you 500 dollars now, or 500 dollars in 4 years (chapters)? What is 500 dollars worth now when we look at it in 4 years? Take an interest rate of 20% per year. 500 * 1.2⁴ = 1036.8. So basically, using an admittedly arbitrary interest rate of 20%, Mia gives us 1036.8 bexp worth of value for that 500 bexp, but Zihark only gives us 500 bexp worth of value for that bexp because we gave him 500 bexp 4 chapters later rather than using it earlier. Now, if you still want to compare Zihark and Mia with equal amounts of bexp given, 500 each, you need to somehow keep in mind that 500 bexp gives more bang for your buck with Mia rather than with Zihark. But how do judge how much more value is in Mia's use of bexp? Really, the comparison of each with 500 bexp is unfair, not fair, because Zihark is in essence given an unfair advantage over Mia. That's why it's easier to give him less bexp than Mia got, because it keeps the comparison fair. Take my, again admittedly arbitrary, interest rate of 20%. So Mia got 500 bexp. To make the comparison fair, we need to give Zihark bexp in chapter 8 terms. So, n * 1.2⁴ = 500 bexp, because we are giving him n bexp in chapter 8 but he shows up in chapter 12. We give him the equivelant of 500 bexp. n = 241 bexp. So, if you want a fair comparison, then 241 chapter 8 bexp is equivalent to 500 bexp in chapter 12. As such, you can set aside 241 bexp of chapter 8 bexp, and it is like giving Zihark 500 bexp in chapter 12.

So, maybe it's a little more fair to give Zihark some bexp than it is to give him none, because after all we did give Mia bexp. I'm not saying Zihark should get nothing, because it's impossible to say that Mia made so much use out of that 500 bexp that it is completely used up in 4 chapters by her performance and they start all squyare. It might be true, but it can't be proven. So instead, if we can come up with the relative value of that bexp based on the fact it helped us for 4 chapters rather than sitting in the convoy, then we can determine how much bexp Zihark deserves to make a fair comparison. So Mia got 500 bexp + some combat experience (how much?) and Zihark gets minor combat experience in chapter 11 and 241 bexp (or whatever fair number). Now make a comparison of their stats and it is actually (relatively) fair.

[Espinosa]

I personally have no trouble admitting Mia = Zihark. Mia shaves off one turn thanks to contributing two Shoves in a very specific narrow playthrough (where everybody can be used), but you have all the Laguz dudes whose Shoves cost you absolutely nothing and then perform them on far more numerous occasions throughout the game (because when you fail to level up, weight still stays the same). She can also save the Talisman village,but she can do that without any BEXP investment. Zihark can get the Killer Lance village in his join chapter, in turn, and functions better than Mia without any exp investment, combat or base.

Tormod is above Ilyana also thanks to weapon ranks and the fact that a very small amount of the Chapter 15 BExp makes him outrange footunits and do very respectable damage. Above Soren is a little harder to understand because in practice, that small amount of chip that Soren delivers through chapter 9 is a lot more useful than the numbers suggest.

All Sages get their offensive magic ranks up to D upon promotion anyway. Tormod doesn't need to work his ass to get to Meteor, but he'll still need to fight it out (chapter 17 is a good enough place for that I guess) to build the rest of his ranks, and let's not forget that he'll take much BEXP while the other two could feed off chip damage and finishing kills for much of the game, Soren especially has plenty of chapters for self-improvement. Meanwhile, Ilyana has no trouble whatsoever getting to Bolting.

[Chiki]

Snowy's actually said something smart for once. Congrats, you finally get the argument.

Tormod is above Ilyana also thanks to weapon ranks and the fact that a very small amount of the Chapter 15 BExp makes him outrange footunits and do very respectable damage. Above Soren is a little harder to understand because in practice, that small amount of chip that Soren delivers through chapter 9 is a lot more useful than the numbers suggest.

My 114 turn playthrough proved Tormod's move is completely meaningless.

[Espinosa]

My 114 turn playthrough proved Tormod's move is completely meaningless.

It doesn't necessarily have to be that in any other run though...

[Chiki]

It doesn't necessarily have to be that in any other run though...

If under perfect play conditions Tormod saves no turns, then Tormod saves no turns ever.

[Dark Sage]

there's more to tier lists than just turns you know.

[Chiki]

there's more to tier lists than just turns you know.

Tormod adds nothing to reliability.