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-Cynthia-

FE9 Tier list v3

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Soren actually has a fairly sizable MAG growth lead- like 15% IIRC, and at 20/1 it's actually like a 1.55 point difference that looks like 1 because rounding, but would be 2 points after just another level. Devdan isn't that good and I don't think there's really a point to having 2 Sages. Reyson is there but I think that if Tormod is getting danced by him, he's going to move out of range before Sieging so I'm not really sure how often it would actually come into play. Soren's also there for some of those early rout and defend chapters where everybody needs to chip in (and if Mia gets +points for it, so should Soren).

Tormod can reach normal combat more often, true, but Soren is a bit better at it, and I think having effective damage against fliers is also more useful than having it against beasts.

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It depends on the chapter really- in like C22 we don't really have anything else to do other than siege the boss so keeping supports in range is easy. If you use Calill+ another Sage you can use multiple siege tome uses without needing a Reyson refresh.

Tormod +2 Mov in reaching combat seems significantly more important than Soren's 1-2 Mag and like 1 Spd lead over Tormod. Effective damage against fliers isn't very relevant because they both should ORKO wyverns with a thunder forge anyway.

We can clear defend chapters with or without Soren. I guess he helps in the C7 rout a little, but his combat is pretty bad here.

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Marcia requires around 1350 Bexp to save the 3? turns in Chp 11 and no one questions that resource dump.

No. Only 1 turn. She can 3 turn with less.

Also, my experiencce with both says Soren>>>>tormod is not even debatable. Soren can even reach Rescue.

Edited by PKL

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No. Only 1 turn. She can 3 turn with less.

Also, my experiencce with both says Soren>>>>tormod is not even debatable. Soren can even reach Rescue.

When is Soren Rescuing useful?

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In draft context: always. And that's a foot unit that you can have your fliers carry across the map in C23 and Rescue the mount carrying Ike over to Petrine. That's a map where non-Jill units get obliterated whenever they're carrying Ike so it's a neat thing. And Tormod's underleveledness sucks more than you all seem to think. Soren has a lot of chapters over Tormod and even a mag lead realistically over Tormod. In cases where Soren and Tormod take exactly the same amount of BEXP, Soren clearly wins in everything except mov, which is superflous when sieging.

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The thing is that both Soren and Tormod are likely going to need a significant BEXP dump anyway and the siege tomes don't come into play until after Tormod joins. I suppose Soren and Ilyana have some combat utility before then, but I question how much that's worth.

Ilyana can be a Rescue user as well as Soren so that's food for thought I suppose.

Seems to me like Tormod's Mov makes it easier for him to get into siege range of bosses compared to other Sages. If Soren needs to be shoved/refreshed and Tormod doesn't that's an advantage for Tormod and Soren having like 2 Mag over Tormod isn't a convincing sell otherwise.

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Soren barely gets to the benchmark mag for Shiharam with Ike support and Spirit Dust. Tormod kinda just can't. Ilyana can only get to the benchmark mag with a super super inflated level and she's so bad.

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Soren's advantage over Tormod is that he can self-improve in chapters where some of the other units contesting the combat experience are ones that aren't staying with you longterm (Gatrie/Shinon). With Fixed Mode/bands, Soren needs 5 level-ups to match base Tormod mag and 3 level-ups to have the same speed. He is getting a lot more than that obviously. In 12 chapters where he exists and Tormod doesn't, this is a big advantage.

The selling point for investing into a mage earlier than Tormod and Calill become available is the desert. You do have alternatives for efficient clears there - a really strong flier, two fliers, a flier carrying a foot unit with an anti-laguz weapon, but a trained tome user can reach the boss without escort through shoving and wreck Muarim with a Fire/Thunder forge.

If Mia's tiny availability lead puts her over Zihark, then I don't see why Soren's humongous lead would not. He "shaves" off the same turns as she does too, and is generally more worthy of investment and capable of walloping the game.

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Sothe does the same stuff Volke does with a bit less durability which doesn't matter in most circumstances. I guess Volke has better combat, but using either of them for combat is probably not a good idea.

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Sothe does the same stuff Volke does with a bit less durability which doesn't matter in most circumstances. I guess Volke has better combat, but using either of them for combat is probably not a good idea.

exactly, so whys he so high

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This list focuses on what units can do given a non-specific team. Sothe has some uses if we're not using Volke, mostly redundant otherwise. There are a few chapters where we might want multiple thieves to open chests (like C13).

Unless you're arguing against thieving utility in general?

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This list focuses on what units can do given a non-specific team. Sothe has some uses if we're not using Volke, mostly redundant otherwise. There are a few chapters where we might want multiple thieves to open chests (like C13).

Unless you're arguing against thieving utility in general?

yeah what swag loots this guy actually net you that stacks him above competent mount prepromos like geoff and haar

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Chapter 7: We can get two sets of Chest Keys in Chapter 7. Because this is a rout, these are guaranteed. No thieves exist during this chapter, so if we want any of the treasures, we need to use Chest Keys. Of these treasures, the Ward staff is probably the only one worth getting, if we're stingy. In hard mode, this is the only Ward staff in the game. In addition to being helpful for its ability, it is also a great way to increase staff rank or get Sexp, so we'll definitely appreciate this one.

3 Chest Key uses left.

Chapter 10: There are three possible chest keys here. However, these are unavailable altogether if we're completing the chapter using stealth. If, instead we're LTCing, we might not have the opportunity to get more than one set of Chest Keys. Getting a second set is possible, the third is probably not. As for the treasures here, they're all pretty underwhelming. Only the Short Axe is tempting, since we can't forge Hand Axes yet. It probably isn't worth a Chest Key, but if Volke is deployed, he can nab it for 50G.

3-7 Chest Key uses left.

Chapter 13: To clear this faster than ~10 turns, we'll need to loot all of the treasure ourselves. There are seven chests, so we can only pull this off (sans thieves) if we managed to get at least two sets of Chest Keys in Chapter 10. One thief alone can save us 3-4 Chest Keys here on route to a 7-turn clear. Deploying both thieves, we can probably get away with only one, or perhaps even no Chest Key uses.

0 Chest Key uses left.

Chapter 16: The good news? There is another set of Chest Keys here. The bad news? There are more than two valuable treasures. The Full Guard and Dracoshield are both valuable treasures, and attainable in a LTC run. The Physic and Bolting are also tempting, but not attainable in an efficient clear. Deploying a thief makes it easier to nab both Full Guard and Dracoshield.

0 Chest Key uses left.

Chapter 18: No Chest Key uses left. What are we passing up? Recover, Silence, and Wrath. Wrath is pretty useful, it would be nice to have a thief grab this...

Chapter 21: No Chest Key uses left. This time we could have gotten an Energy Drop and the Brave Sword! My, it would be nice to have a thief (for the Energy Drop) and the Chest Key uses they saved (for the Brave Sword).

Chapter 22: There are two Chest Key sets here. Unfortunately, an efficient clear makes it impossible to get those Chest Keys (and the treasures). Actually, with a thief and Reyson's help, we might be able to nab either the Sleep staff or Tomahawk on turn 1 (assuming our Tormod/Calill can 1RKO Schaeffer). We'd need a Chest Key saved up to otherwise get these valuables.

Chapter 27: The is one Chest Key set here. Unfortunately, it's nowhere near the treasures and so is probably not usable in an efficient clear. Boy would we like to use it, though! The Resolve Scroll is hugely desirable and Fortify is certainly nice. The thieves can get them.

That's all the Chest stuff, there's also the desert items. They also might be able to Steal a Physic staff sometime or something, although Volke is better at this.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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There is also the fact that Volke *can* be given Lethality post-promotion and his promotion is automatic meaning that, even if neglected entirely, he can still be a better thief/use Lethality. Yea, these are so minor that they basically don't matter, but they are factors.

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Lethality might as well not exist though, being such a worthless skill. Not much to do with it in a game where Assassins lack that huge +25 crit bonus, knives cannot be forged and the best one has only 10 crit. Volke's fighting is bad from the start but Shade / higher combat parameters occasionally make a difference in terms of survival. Slight availability lead, too.

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There is also the fact that Volke *can* be given Lethality post-promotion and his promotion is automatic meaning that, even if neglected entirely, he can still be a better thief/use Lethality. Yea, these are so minor that they basically don't matter, but they are factors.

lolwut

like seriously, in the epic battle of volke v sothe, that's the thread you pick up on?

Not Volke's extra (relevant) chapter of availability and his higher innate durability

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I picked up on them. Cynthia already mentioned the extra chapters and the better durability has to do with his promotion (unless promoting doesn't make him more durable somehow).

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So the massive Bexp dump on Marcia saves just 1 turn. Wouldn't that make the Bexp dump for Chp 9 MORE efficient?

Soren starts with 99 MAG points on fixed which means his MAG will always be a full point above his average. Soren and Tormod need a Bexp dump at some point to be good. Oh, whats this? A Bexp dump on Soren for Chp 9 happens to save a turn? How convenient. And he can now start working on his staff rank for Rescue staff use later? With his now extremely high LV and Ike B support, ORKO'ing Shisharim isnt so unbelievable. And he can get 2 more boss kills in Ena and Chp 22's boss.
The Chp 23 3-turn clear requires 20MAG Ike, or you can have your super-flyer drop Soren who then Rescues Ike in to seize range with his massive 15 rescue range.
Soren having access to Rescue also allows for a possible 2 turn strat of Chp 24.
I've already said what he can do in Chp 25.
He siege bombs Bertram in Chp 26.
Thats 7 straight maps of making big contributions for Soren.
He has the best combat ability in the game.

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Mia and Zihark should be on top for their tier that they are in, probably right below nephanee.

Lolno. Too many lances.

Edited by Levant Fortner

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The tier that Mia and Zihark are in is:

Mid

Nephenee
Stefan
Mia

Zihark
Rhys
Volke

So really he's only advocating for Stefan to go down below Mia/Zihark... not sure how the number of enemies with lances is relevant when all three are swordlocked.

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