FE9 Tier list v3

[dondon151]

simple resolution to the problem: prove it!

[PKL]

I feel like some of you should draft these games. It helps unravel new strats and using suboptimal character choices in an LTC environment is pretty cool.

[Espinosa]

I feel like some of you should draft these games. It helps unravel new strats and using suboptimal character choices in an LTC environment is pretty cool.

What it says to me is that drafters could invest some effort into making draft achievements better known to other players (outside of those who participated in the same draft). Like a compilation of the best turn counts in tricky chapters in-context and so forth (though the 'context' is often described rather abruptly as 'Kyle' or something like that, which can indeed say volumes to somebody with shared background knowledge regardless). The social aspects of drafting get more focus than the gaming-related ones, I feel.

[-Cynthia-]

Stuck Ike below Tanith for now.

[Hawk King]

With 20 mage band LVs Soren reaches 30 MAG at 20/12 with one dust. I see no reason not to LV him with a different band and just give him both dusts. No one else will need them. So no, Im not talking about 20/20 Soren. With a Chp 9 promotion, he will be at an extremely high LV just from his in chapter Exp gain.

I have killed all but 1 enemy in 2 turns of Chapter 25 with a draft team. I see no reason why a full team cant get that 1 last enemy.

Like Ive said, im not saying Soren should be in top tier. Im just saying there should be a gap between him and the other Sages. He has way more potential than the others.

[-Cynthia-]

We can also use mage bands/dusts to close the magic gap between the other Sages and Soren. That being said, I'll put Soren/Ilyana above Mist for Rescue staff possibilities.

[Hawk King]

Illyana is the problem there though. She requires all the resourses Soren does and alot more. The opportunity costs are also much higher for her.

In order to reach B-rank staves for Chp 21, Illyana/Soren need to promote as early as possible. In order for Illyana to promote in Chp 9 and have the same turn saving potential, she will need ~300 more Bexp than Soren. This has a huge opportunity cost as it prevents Marcia from getting strong enough to 2 turn Chp 12. If she puts off promotion to save the Bexp for Marcia then no turn is saved in Chp 9. With no promoted foot unit, a Chp 10 strat that opens both doors and kills Danomill for the seal becomes far less reliable (maybe impossible?) and Illyana is still struggling to get enough Exp to promote.

Even IF she promotes early enough to reach B-rank staves, she needs more Mage band LVs, 2 dusts, and a higher LV than Soren to have the same MAG. And her SPD and combat potential will NEVER match Soren meaning no Chp 25 2-turn.

She takes more and gives less.

[-Cynthia-]

1. Ilyana may actually take less BEXP than Soren because she may be a higher level than him to start with.

2. Soren isn't entitled to all the kills in C8 regardless.

3. That one turn in C9 has been hyped to hell and back here.

Basically, you're overrating having a promoted foot unit for C9 and assuming the player will do everything to make that happen. It's simply one possible strategy in some team compositions and even under these highly specific conditions, it does not save many turns overall.

Edited October 18, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Horakthi]

I think he's entitled to those kills if he really does perform as Hawk King says he does. So I'd reject that argument.

But it's worth noting that Soren has crap for durability, especially without RNG abuse and in fixed mode, so I seriously doubt you can get him enough kills to promote in Chapter 8, even if you bexp him up to level 15. You'd probably need to rig a bunch of misses and stuff to do that. So I honestly need to see this strategy being done.

As Espinosa pointed out, ignoring Hawk King's idea for a second, Ilyana is probably better than Soren due to being able to siege tome abuse better than him thanks to that handy +hit support bonus. I believe it's already been proven that Ilyana is a preferable option over Soren due to that.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Horakthi

[-Cynthia-]

We have Oscar, Ike, Boyd, Titania etc. that we can also give these kills to and these characters bring considerable returns as well.

[PKL]

Lol...+hit supports affecting anything. Meteor Soren never has less than 90% hit on Shiharam or the C22 boss anyway. What's more important is that Soren has an Ike support while Ilyana has...uh...Mia?

[Hawk King]

And Soren has a +hit support if you want it. Stefan who costs just 1 turn.

And ignoring the Chp 9 turn, Ive already pointed out all of the other things that he wins at.

[Shadow Mir]

@Hawk King: What you're suggesting is no less extreme (and no more plausible) than the hyperbole about promoting Mia around chapter 9.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Ema Skye]

A mia support for Ilyana does help Ilyana close the magic gap though.

[Samias]

Ilyana is one of the few characters who actually has a nice number of supports who have okay synergy. Zihark and Lucia probably give the messiest bonuses and it's hard to keep Mordecai in range for the defence bonus, and Gatrie is an armor with all the problems that entails (though they do get double light bonus and have the same basic move), but Mia is a pretty good pick for Ilyana and helps her slightly close the accuracy and MT gap. Soren is likely to lose a whopping 9-10 AS if he uses Bolting (6-7 with Blizzard, the lightest siege tome) which closes his speed gap with Ilyana,who is far less encumbered. He might proc Adept though, which has obvious appeal, but nearing max level Ilyana might actually have 4-5 AS over Soren while sieging. I do think Soren is better and has hard advantages over Ilyana like better bases for his level and better growths, but his low strength relative to the other mages is really, really bad, and he basically lives off of -WT forges. Even Elthunder's weight is a little much for him before promotion and has a tendency to drop Soren's AS severely enough to stop doubling enemies. Unless we assume our earlygame BEXP expenditure is going entirely to Soren, in which case he can solo everything, just like Oscar or Boyd or pretty much anyone else.

[PKL]

We're gonna be forging stuff for our sieger's training anyway. So I don't see why -wt forges being a thing need to be brought up. There's so much money in this game, it almost shouldn't even count as taking a resource.And Soren's dark affinity means Ilyana will never close the mag gap. Also, no one can double with sieges anyway, so Soren's "disadvantage" isn't even a thing.

Edited October 19, 2013 by PKL

[Samias]

I'm just saying he's competing for the forge slot. Money is not an issue but we could be making silver forges instead by the end of the game. I'm just saying the other mages can use the other tomes whereas Soren is troubled. It's not a big enough deal to put him beneath anyone else, I'm just saying the gap is not a tier gap as some people are suggesting.

[Hawk King]

With a few STR band LVs I had Soren doubling Shisharim. He could cleanly ORKO him with no need for an adept proc.

That doesn't even matter though because you never NEED to double with siege tomes anyways.

Everyone's arguments against Soren are really weak. It makes me sad.

I think Boyd should drop a little. He really doesn't do anything super special. His early game isnt so great that he deserves to be so much high than Nephenee.

[-Cynthia-]

Well the reason Boyd is so high is because of the general Boyd>Ike thing- Boyd has 1-2 range and can ORKO enemies at that range while Ike has nothing until Ragnell(barring Sonic Sword use I guess). I could see an argument for him dropping below Tanith,

[Ema Skye]

I think Tanith over Boyd makes sense too. His earlygame isn't that impressive in my opinion (weighed down by Iron for 4 levels and his AS is really borderline earlygame), so I could also see him under Astrid because I think Astrid's horse outweighs Boyd's level and availability lead he has. Same with Makalov too.

[dondon151]

Everyone's arguments against Soren are really weak. It makes me sad.

the burden of proof is on the one making the claim, i.e., you. everyone is looking for evidence.

[Hawk King]

I've already proven before that promoting a foot unit for Chp 9 is possible while still having enough Bexp left for Marcia. What else needs proof? Im not hypothesising here. Ive only been saying things I know to be true.

Any drafter can tell you that Soren is a league above Illyana.

[MRDRHAWK]

>Makalov High Tier

I am so proud of you all.

[Horakthi]

Yes, please explain how a level 13-15 unpromoted Soren in fixed mode (meaning horrible durability) is reliably promoting in Chapter 8. Guess what? It's impossible without a crapload of RNG abuse.

This is exactly why drafters aren't taken seriously: they tend to lie about their turncounts and RNG abuse all the time.

[Espinosa]

Soren's start IS very rough, even with an Angelic Robe and a huge BEXP dump before chapter 8 (I did my dump into Boyd last time I started an efficiency run and he couldn't quite face a huge crowd of enemies either, and Boyd actually has some semblance of durability).

If drafts only allow 50 BEXP investments per unit before each chapter, how is draftplay characteristic of general efficiency exactly? It IS quite certain that a party of Ike, Titania and Soren will witness an unusual amount of combat EXP flowing into Soren, but a party of three is something of an extremity and the same could just as well be said about Ilyana - a party of Titania, Ike and Ilyana will also feature a quickly snowballing Ilyana.