FE9 Tier list v3

[Florete]

Being good at combat, healing or theiving >>>>>>>>> support bonuses.

Except, these two are very close at both offense and durability, you've seen that. So even if you just consider those even, it's still thieving vs. healing, supports, and a horse. And of course, giving support bonuses > not.

Even then, I'd question how much they help.

Take Boyd, for example, he can easily replace Mist with Brom as they give the same bonuses and their speeds are similar. Mordecai can easily get Ilyana/Stefan and please don't spout bS about him needing Atk and Def as that's not true, his problem stat is speed. Jill is uber eitehr way, really, and can easily be fine with just a Lethe/Haar support. And Titania? Ehh, if Soren isn't fielded, Mist should say hi to Ike, who just stole her spot for having a superier affinity.

Boyd is the option she wants the least anyway.

Mordecai, yeah, except he doesn't need Hit either, so I don't see why he'd take either of them since I can at least find some place to make the extra 2 atk useful.

TitaniaxIke? Lol at being almost 3 times longer than TitaniaxMist. And having a "superior affinity" doesn't justify it anyway, since I'd say 1 atk and 2 Def > 15 avoid.

Why would Jill want more Hit? And plus, Lethe is not so good later on and the support is twice as slow. Haar comes late and might easily not be in play anyway. She at least wants a support, especially early on when she has to build up before being uber.

Honestly, her support are great, but they are merely replacing others which these characters are fine with.

Better than not having any.

So... in order to be better, she's practically shoving Ilyana/Stefan out of the way in Mordy's case and Jill just don't give a damn.

What the hell is always up with "Ilyana/Stefan want Mordy too!" crap? Who cares? Mordy doesn't want them. And in any case, he can still take a B with one of them, because seriously, they don't get hardly anything out of reaching A, especially Stefan.

And no, Jill does give a damn. She loves her Mist support. She has to grow into uberness, she doesn't start with it. 24/11 base HP/Def at Ch. 12 with 60%/35% growths does her little favors before promotion.

I gave Mist the strongest forge she could have, some -wt, full mt and full crt. A silver sword ties in mt and wt, but has less crt. I'm sorry, I'll just make Mist even worse than Volke offensively

I did some math wrong, but Volke still has the problem of "only 20 uses for 5 maps," so if he runs out and switches to a Dagger he lost 4 MT and 10 Crit. And then his Str caps out in 2 levels anyway, so by the time he gets another Stiletto Mist could already be laughing in his face offensively.

Okay, I'll make a note that somehow Mist's inferier AS and crit doesn't equate to a loss when she has no such leads of her own. My bad. [/sarcasm]

A horse is a lead. Supports are a lead. Healing is a lead. Canto is a lead. 1-2 range is a lead. Maybe not leads in pure combat, but any combat leads Volke is actually pulling are very minor anyway.

Honestly, Volke wins every stat, but Mist wins? What's this BS?

I see you completely skipped over Luck. I don't like seeing my units get critted, thanks. Oh, and he loses Def as well due to her supports, so "this BS" is Volke winning every stat.

Lol@Ignoring what I said. Time for copy+paste:

And yes, it is superier. Comparing a 20/4 Volke to a 20/8 Mist, Volke has a 4 HP lead over Mist and shade, compared to Mist's miracle, 4 Avo and 1 Def. The latter of which has a ~44% chance of not existing.

Or, we can go back to earlier levels when I knew what supports you were giving her. And how did Volke gain 3 levels while Mist only gained two? Neither see much combat, though Mist sees a bit more and healing gives more experience than thieving.

Volke also has 34.15/11.2 HP/Def, while Mist with that support combo gets 31/12.6 HP/Def. So durability would be pretty similar, unless Mist has B Jill instead, in which case 2.4 Def > 3 HP. And if she has A Mordecai/B Jill, she'll also have a +1 atk lead. Or if she exchanges B Jill for B Boyd, she goes back to mostly tying durability but wins offense with +2 atk. She also has more avoid and Crit avo due to like +10 Luck or something and then Jill also gives some, which would even cover WTD.

With A Mordy/B Jill, Mist wins offense and defense.

With A Titania/B Jill, Mist wins Def and barely loses offense.

With A Jill/B Titania...same thing.

With A Titania/B Boyd (arguably her worst combination), they're pretty much even in combat.

With A Mordy/B Boyd, she wins offense and ties defense.

Any other combinations you'd like to see? Nowhere in there does Volke ever pull a lead. His growths aren't much better either (His 15% HP, 5% Def, and 5% avoid vs. her pretty much not taking crits, 1-2 range, and occasional WTA), so it's not like he'll suddenly pull a lead in X amount of levels.

But these two aren't primarily fighters, they're a Thief and a Healer. Being a Thief means he often stays away from combat for a few turns, but healing (With Canto, no less) keeps Mist among our fighters, so she can expose herself to enemies whenever she wants. So she'll level faster despite being a hgiher level.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[Reikken]

Why is Jill so high again? She gets doubled considerably the few chapters she first joins you and it takes a long time before she can start doubling enemies herself.

She gets doubled by Ravens only. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. Then every chapter after her joining one is very kind to her. ch 13: ship. She'll double only the slowest enemies, but others aren't one-rounding things either, and being able to fly makes her quite useful. ch 14 is full of slow things that even she can double. ch 15 is desert, so she's awesomely helpful whatever you decide to do. And by then, her underleveled + good spd growth has brought her spd up to an acceptable level, and all her other stats are awesome. Edited August 31, 2009 by Reikken

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

The problem with comparing Mist to everyone else in combat is that she is the hardest unit to get to level 20. If you seal her, her atk and AS are not good enough to be used for combat and so she is limited to staves.

[Reikken]

Also, I like how everyone ignores res. The res difference is so huge that it's the most important defensive difference between Mist and Volke. More than all the other differences combined.

Anyway, rundown on Mist vs Volke, sans stealable staves:

early:

Mist is healing,

and Volke is, if we are to assume he's getting enough exp to be reaching 20/2 or whatever, being babied so that he can get kills and not die, which is not only taking a unit slot while not being helpful but is also taking combat exp from other units. And he helps you get a few useful items here and there. And I do mean a few. There's nothing worth stealing yet, and many of the items in chests are pretty garbage or can be gotten without a thief. There are indeed items left over after considering that, but it's not a whole lot. Mist >> Volke

a bit later:

Mist's supports are starting to help teammates, and she continues healing and stuff. Then she also promotes after a while, also gaining a horse and the ability to attack. She's very clearly better than Volke at combat at this point, as Volke is unpromoted and has only access to daggers (he has like 20 atk).

And Volke is more of the same. He still sucks at combat, though he sucks a bit less now. Mist >>

later still:

Volke promotes, so he's just bad at combat rather than sucking: for a chapter and a bit of the next, he has no access to stilettos, so his offense is still pretty garbage. After that, it's acceptable every time he sees it fit to use up 2 of his 20 stiletto uses. As far as combat goes, Mist's horse, massive res, and 25 uses of massive rape whenever > Volke's... nothing, really.

Then supports and healing (with few to no physics) vs Volke's very few items here and there (since staves are being excluded due to that being shared by both)

even later:

silver swords, horse again, gaining exp fater for increasing stat leads, and whatever's left of that h4x sword > Volke's nothing

and same old for non combat stuff

I don't see it. How is Volke better?

The problem with comparing Mist to everyone else in combat is that she is the hardest unit to get to level 20.

wut? Healers are extremely easy to level

Edited August 31, 2009 by Reikken

[Eltoshen]

Why is Jill so high again? She gets doubled considerably the few chapters she first joins you and it takes a long time before she can start doubling enemies herself.

She gets doubled by Ravens only. I don't know where you're getting that idea from. Then every chapter after her joining one is very kind to her. ch 13: ship. She'll double only the slowest enemies, but others aren't one-rounding things either, and being able to fly makes her quite useful. ch 14 is full of slow things that even she can double. ch 15 is desert, so she's awesomely helpful whatever you decide to do. And by then, her underleveled + good spd growth has brought her spd up to an acceptable level, and all her other stats are awesome.

Probably where I got that idea, then. She can't really do much at all during the first few chapters either. Her hit is rather poor as well. It varies from around 58-78% for awhile (with a Steel Lance) due to the abundance of axe-wielding enemies. And why are we being generous and giving Jill all the levels? At the most, she'll have gained two levels by chapter 15 unless you babied her. Hard mode cuts experience dramatically. And...our other playable units aren't one rounding units...so what? Then we should feed those kills to Jill?

Let's jump to the ship chapter. Boyd and Oscar are taking out the grunts and Soren's acting as backup. And where will Jill be? She's stuck fighting Crows that double her. That's all her usefulness will give her on the ship chapter, unless you want to have her fight the many axe users, or mages, not to mention the archers. And why again, are we letting Jill get all the kills in the first place? Really though, kills are the main things that net you experience in hard mode, and Jill just isn't killing enemies as well as your other units.

Jill is a great unit. However, the effort required to raise her up to the level of your other playable units basically makes me question why she's beating people like Oscar and Boyd, who don't need that extra push to become great. They're useful the moment you get them.

And fyi, the reason why I've noticed this is because I was just playing these chapters 2 days ago. Jill didn't help me much, if at all. I only used her to kill random un-transformed laguz in the desert chapter and it felt like I was babying her since most of my other units could've one-rounded them. Soren, for example, performed the best in that chapter.

I just realized we'll have recruited Stefan by the end of that chapter. And Jill's at what...level 14, if we're generous? That's giving her 2 levels every chapter she's available in, by the way. That basically means she's killing half of the enemies in each chapter that she can kill effectively (which leaves about 3-5 units). She's not doubling them. Wasting turns. Not a good chance.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Reikken]

wtf? Where are you getting me giving Jill all the kills? She would be lv hax by the start of ch 16 if that were to happen. No, what happens is that she's killing things normally, like anyone else, and you give her some of that 1500 bexp she helps you get from ch 15.

Secondly, Jill's hit is no issue. lv 13 Oscar has a whopping 4 hit lead over lv 8 Jill. lv 13 Kieran loses to Jill by 2.

[Eltoshen]

How is Jill helping you get BEXP when she's killing the laguz enemies?

And where are you getting 1500 BEXP? You don't even get that much in easy mode. Also, you actually gain more or about the same EXP when you kill the laguz, in case you were wondering. Plus, you also gain the experience from doing chip damage.

By the way, Oscar has a level lead over Jill. He's much better than Jill by the time she joins. But my question is why he's only level 13 by then? You've already had him for plenty of chapters. Also, why do you bring up Kieran when I didn't mention him at all? He has axes though, if you were wondering. The majority of enemy units are lance and axe users, so he's able to take advantage of the weapon triangle much more often.

And again, Jill isn't killing things normally when she can't double attack. She's doing chip damage for the most part, unless you feed her a kill.

How long has it been since you played FE9 Hard mode? I think you need to refresh your memory since in no way is Jill able to kill enemies like you say she can when she joins you.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Reikken]

She's not killing laguz. She's helping to get items and/or kill Muarim.

And not killing the laguz is what gets you that 1500 bexp. 1460 to be exact.

Killing them is better, you say? Let's see. Each laguz not killed is 40 bexp, and there are 19 of them, and then you get 300 extra for not killing any, and then even more in turns since it of course takes longer to kill them all then to just go kill the boss. Chip damage? You can grab some of that, too. You only need to not kill them; attacking them is fine.

So, by the HM exp formula, a lv 15 killing a lv 3 laguz dood gets 37 exp. 14 for hitting. Do they give less exp for being killed while untransformed in this game? I can't remember... Anyway, if they do, then that's less exp. If they don't, then this applies. 37+14 = 51. *19 = 969. 969 combat exp vs 1060+(more for turns) bexp. Pretty similar in sheer amount, but bexp is more flexible; you can distribute it however you want. So that way is better. It's not by a whole lot, though, so the other way is perfectly viable. Except for the fact that it takes longer and uses more resources (ie is less efficient).

If you do opt to kill them, then that's just as good or even better for Jill since most of your team sucks at moving, so she'll need to be doing a large portion of the attacking in order to beat the chapter quickly.

Oscar 'only' level 13? Well let's see. He has 8 combat chapters before Jill exists, some of which are super short, like 1 and 2. Though I suppose he's entitled to some bexp from ch 10 since he does help out. So like 8 chapters' worth of exp, or so, counting 1 and 2 as half a chapter each. And in that, 10 levels. That doesn't sound off to me.

I'm not saying that Jill is one-rounding. And guys like Oscar aren't either. There is a lot that he can't double, and even on things that he does, he doesn't have enough atk. Jill has just as much power as Oscar (or 1 point more), but she doubles less. So that's about, 30% less damage output than Oscar. That's not bad. It's even a bit more than that since if she's not doubling anyway, she can opt to use a steel lance instead of iron. Obviously you won't always want to do that because of hit, but it's an option.

Why did I mention Kieran? Why else? He's a good unit. Good units like Kieran and Oscar are what Jill needs to be compared against given her tier position. And yes, axes have the advantage over lances 2 times out of 3. However, they lose out by twice as much for the other 1 time. There's no advantage there. And oddly enough, the sword:axe+lance ratio in ch 13 is exactly 1:2.

[uzy5o]

So, by the HM exp formula, a lv 15 killing a lv 3 laguz dood gets 37 exp. 14 for hitting. Do they give less exp for being killed while untransformed in this game? I can't remember... Anyway, if they do, then that's less exp. If they don't, then this applies. 37+14 = 51. *19 = 969. 969 combat exp vs 1060+(more for turns) bexp. Pretty similar in sheer amount, but bexp is more flexible; you can distribute it however you want. So that way is better. It's not by a whole lot, though, so the other way is perfectly viable. Except for the fact that it takes longer and uses more resources (ie is less efficient).

You can wound enemies and still get bexp for not killing them. So you should only be comparing kill exp vs bexp. That becomes 37*19*1.21 = 851 vs 1060, which makes the difference greater.

And killing untransformed laguz gives the same exp.

[Zkirsche]

Except, these two are very close at both offense and durability, you've seen that. So even if you just consider those even, it's still thieving vs. healing, supports, and a horse. And of course, giving support bonuses > not.

Not when said support bonuses are only used to help Mist.

Boyd is the option she wants the least anyway.

Mordecai, yeah, except he doesn't need Hit either, so I don't see why he'd take either of them since I can at least find some place to make the extra 2 atk useful.

TitaniaxIke? Lol at being almost 3 times longer than TitaniaxMist. And having a "superior affinity" doesn't justify it anyway, since I'd say 1 atk and 2 Def > 15 avoid.

Why would Jill want more Hit? And plus, Lethe is not so good later on and the support is twice as slow. Haar comes late and might easily not be in play anyway. She at least wants a support, especially early on when she has to build up before being uber.

1) True enougth.

2) He doesn't care for ANY bonuses, that's the whole point. You don't get bonus points from a one-way support.

3) See below.

4) Why would Jill want anything?

Better than not having any.

Nope.

Supports limit you to where your support partner heads off to. Considering she's a healer, you'd want Mist to stick with the main group so she can heal them. But what if Titania/Boyd want to go somewhere else? they've lost a support. A support forces two units together, and that is obviously limiting the movement of the two.

Not to mention these two aren't incredibly bolstered by this support. Boyd doesn't care for the extra Atk, which means he's only being aided by the 1 def, and because that is whoamg staggering, it's not major enougth to be a major win. Let's see how that 'A' Mist helps Titania. Take when they first activate it in chapter 18, a level 20/8 Titania wit ha forged steel axe, 'B' Ike, 'B' Boyd has 39 HP, 32 Atk, 18 AS, 60 Avo, 16 Def, 11 Res. The +atk does nothing for her. The strongest enemy on the map 4RKO's her at 32 displayed. It's not like his hit is incredibly low for this chapter either as 24 enemies on this chapter have <100 hit. So yeah, what's the durability good for? It's superfluous, that's what it is. Considering that Titania's even better earlygame than she is in chapter 18, this doesn't change with the lower support levels. Later on, a 20/20 Titania with 'A' Ike, 'B' Boyd has 48 HP, 43 Atk, 24 AS, 83 Avo, 21 Def and 16 Res. The strongest enemy (A Tiger) 4RKO's her at 51 displayed. Considering most beorc have vastly smaller hit rates and Atk, titania is fine durably, besides, the Mist support doesn't even convert it into a 5RKO. So no bonus there. She 2HKO's most things (not Tigers, cats or generals. But she has laguz weapons for the former 2 and the +atk doesn't help against the generals), so again, the support is unimportant.

What the hell is always up with "Ilyana/Stefan want Mordy too!" crap? Who cares? Mordy doesn't want them. And in any case, he can still take a B with one of them, because seriously, they don't get hardly anything out of reaching A, especially Stefan.

But they want Mordy. Stefan only has 2 possible support partners, Ilyana only has 2 decent support partners. Oh and 'A' Mordy bring +1 def, which can help turn 2RKO's into 3RKO's.

And no, Jill does give a damn. She loves her Mist support. She has to grow into uberness, she doesn't start with it. 24/11 base HP/Def at Ch. 12 with 60%/35% growths does her little favors before promotion.

orly?

Level 12 Jill has 26 HP, 29 avo and 13 def without the support. The strongest Fighter 3RKO's her, and said 3RKO cannot be fixed with the Mist support. The promoted halbs 6RKO her and ravens/myrmidons 5-7RKO her. Hardly a unit that's going to die frequently. Better yet, she can fly to avoid any enemies she doesn't like facing (Read:the level 15 archer) and because of the mov difference (No better than Rhys x Titania/Kieran, I might add) it probably isn't in affect all of the time in teh first place. Jill is obviously uber later on, so the support is useless there.

I did some math wrong, but Volke still has the problem of "only 20 uses for 5 maps," so if he runs out and switches to a Dagger he lost 4 MT and 10 Crit. And then his Str caps out in 2 levels anyway, so by the time he gets another Stiletto Mist could already be laughing in his face offensively.

Of course, by that point, the steel forge will break and she has to use a steel sword, so her Atk drops by 5, as did Volke's offensive drop to daggers (though that's only +4)

A horse is a lead. Supports are a lead. Healing is a lead. Canto is a lead. 1-2 range is a lead. Maybe not leads in pure combat, but any combat leads Volke is actually pulling are very minor anyway.

Mist doesn't have 1-2 range anymore, the sonic sword is likely to have broken. Supports isn't a lead, as I've shown. A horse isn't really a lead by itself - canto is though. But that only helps durability, but Volke has shade for that anyway.

I see you completely skipped over Luck. I don't like seeing my units get critted, thanks. Oh, and he loses Def as well due to her supports, so "this BS" is Volke winning every stat.

In offence. She bears no Atk/AS/Crt leads, unless you want to make a case about hit?

Or, we can go back to earlier levels when I knew what supports you were giving her. And how did Volke gain 3 levels while Mist only gained two? Neither see much combat, though Mist sees a bit more and healing gives more experience than thieving.

The same as usual, 'A' Titania/'B' Boyd.

20/2 Volke --> 20/4 Volke = 2 levels. 20/6 Mist --> 20/8 Mist = 2 levels.

Note that Volke also gets more levels from less bexp and more exp from combat in teh first place. So it all balances out, really.

With A Mordy/B Jill, Mist wins offense and defense.

With A Titania/B Jill, Mist wins Def and barely loses offense.

With A Jill/B Titania...same thing.

With A Titania/B Boyd (arguably her worst combination), they're pretty much even in combat.

With A Mordy/B Boyd, she wins offense and ties defense.

Any other combinations you'd like to see? Nowhere in there does Volke ever pull a lead. His growths aren't much better either (His 15% HP, 5% Def, and 5% avoid vs. her pretty much not taking crits, 1-2 range, and occasional WTA), so it's not like he'll suddenly pull a lead in X amount of levels.

loses offense.

same thing.

Hmm....

But these two aren't primarily fighters, they're a Thief and a Healer. Being a Thief means he often stays away from combat for a few turns, but healing (With Canto, no less) keeps Mist among our fighters, so she can expose herself to enemies whenever she wants. So she'll level faster despite being a hgiher level.

Volke can steal from enemies, too, you know, so idk where you got "He stays away from enemies" from.

[Florete]

2) He doesn't care for ANY bonuses, that's the whole point. You don't get bonus points from a one-way support.

I call bullshit. This is from my debate with Mekkah, for data purposes:

First off, Lethe and Mordecai no longer qualify as "good", at least not when offense is concerned. The former has atk issues, and the latter AS issues.

12 Demi!Mordecai has 34.5 atk/15 AS

12 Demi!Lethe has 27.5 atk/20.3 AS

Looking at Ch23, Mordecai is already borderline on doubling Fighters (11-12 AS), only doubles weighed down Weapon Knights (2 out of 11), he does double wyvs and mages/bishops, doubles 1 out of 5 archers/snipers, and fails against myrms, cats, tigers. So generally he's 2RKOing at best, even with atk supports (they'll allow him to do more damage, but rarely if ever ORKO something he didn't).

Even when Mist support doesn't actually change a 2RKO into a ORKO, he still does +3 damage, and since he doesn't double a whole lot, this makes it easier for someone else to kill in one hit.

1x Wyvern Rider lv 17 (short spear)
33 hp, 24 atk, 9 AS, 100 hit, 22 avo, 18 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 4 cev
1x Wyvern Rider lv 18 (steel lance)
35 hp, 25 atk, 9 AS, 100 hit, 22 avo, 17 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

There's a chance Mordy's Str can go either way, but 34 atk will not kill. Mist support cements the kill, since Mordy could be screwed or at a lower level and still be able to kill.

2x Sage lv 3 (tornado, physic)
28 hp, 20 atk, 14 AS, 115 hit, 31 avo, 8 def, 15 res, 5 crit, 3 cev

Mist support allows him to OHKO.

2x Tiger lv 8 (claw)
41 hp, 29 atk, 15 AS, 122 hit, 32 avo, 17 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 2 cev

Higher end Mordy can 2HKO with Mist support, and only Mist support (Stefan/Ilyana do not suffice)

Let's assume he can cement that 35 base atk for chapter 24.

2x Wyvern Rider lv 20 (steel lance, 1 javelin)
35 hp, 27 atk, 10 AS, 102 hit, 24 avo, 18 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 4 cev
1x Wyvern Rider lv 20 (killer lance)
36 hp, 27 atk, 10 AS, 103 hit, 25 avo, 19 def, 7 res, 37 crit, 5 cev
1x Wyvern Lord lv 5 (silver lance)
37 hp, 32 atk, 11 AS, 107 hit, 26 avo, 18 def, 8 res, 7 crit, 4 cev
3x Wyvern Rider lv 19 (steel lance, 1 javelin)
35 hp, 25 atk, 11 AS, 101 hit, 27 avo, 18 def, 8 res, 6 crit, 5 cev
1x Wyvern Rider lv 19 (short spear)
34 hp, 26 atk, 10 AS, 99 hit, 25 avo, 19 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev
1x Wyvern Lord lv 4 (silver lance, short spear, vulnerary)
38 hp, 31 atk, 11 AS, 106 hit, 25 avo, 17 def, 7 res, 7 crit, 3 cev

With Mist support, all are gone.

Let's go to when they reach B, chapter 16.

5x Myrmidon lv 15 (steel sword)
26 hp, 19 atk, 14 AS, 107 hit, 32 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 7 crit, 4 cev

Without Mist support, he needs to be level 5 to OHKO. Not too bad, but with Mist support, base level Mordecai could do it.

1x Knight lv 14 (iron lance)
30 hp, 18 atk, 3 AS, 99 hit, 9 avo, 17 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 3 cev
1x Knight lv 16 (iron lance)
31 hp, 20 atk, 4 AS, 102 hit, 12 avo, 17 def, 6 res, 4 crit, 4 cev

Similar situation. With Mist support, he can ORKO at base level. Without it, he needs to gain ~1-3 levels.

Let's jump to when they reach A, chapter 19.

2x Wyvern Rider lv 16-18 (steel lance, javelin)
33 hp, 25 atk, 10 AS, 98 hit, 24 avo, 17 def, 6 res, 6 crit, 4 cev

Without Mist support, we need a level ~7 Mordecai. With Mist support, base level Mordecai can pull it off.

1x Wyvern Lord lv 1 (steel lance, short spear, vulnerary)
37 hp, 25 atk, 10 AS, 97 hit, 23 avo, 17 def, 5 res, 6 crit, 3 cev

~level 10 without Mist. ~Level 5 with.

1x Myrmidon lv 18 (steel sword)
28 hp, 20 atk, 17 AS, 108 hit, 39 avo, 7 def, 4 res, 7 crit, 5 cev
3x Myrmidon lv 18 (iron blade)
29 hp, 22 atk, 14 AS, 105 hit, 33 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 7 crit, 5 cev
1x Myrmidon lv 20 (armorslayer)
30 hp, 22 atk (30 eff), 14 AS, 118 hit, 34 avo, 8 def, 4 res, 8 crit, 6 cev
1x Myrmidon lv 20 (longsword [d])
28 hp, 20 atk (26 eff), 17 AS, 123 hit, 40 avo, 8 def, 5 res, 8 crit, 6 cev

Mordecai w/Mist can OHKO all of them by level 8. Without, he'd need ~13.

So yes, BS on Mordecai not caring at all. You might say "underleveled" for some of that, but that isn't the point. Mist support means I can use him a bit more sparingly early on and still have him good later. It's also insurance against Str screwage.

Supports limit you to where your support partner heads off to. Considering she's a healer, you'd want Mist to stick with the main group so she can heal them. But what if Titania/Boyd want to go somewhere else? they've lost a support. A support forces two units together, and that is obviously limiting the movement of the two.

So she goes with them? They might want healing. And there aren't actually that many maps where you'd be splitting off many of your units, and if you did, you'd probably send someone else. It might "restrict" them to her, but it also makes them better around her, so it's a good trade-off since other units can do the fighting job fine anyway.

The strongest enemy on the map 4RKO's her at 32 displayed. It's not like his hit is incredibly low for this chapter either as 24 enemies on this chapter have <100 hit. So yeah, what's the durability good for? It's superfluous, that's what it is. Considering that Titania's even better earlygame than she is in chapter 18, this doesn't change with the lower support levels. Later on, a 20/20 Titania with 'A' Ike, 'B' Boyd has 48 HP, 43 Atk, 24 AS, 83 Avo, 21 Def and 16 Res. The strongest enemy (A Tiger) 4RKO's her at 51 displayed. Considering most beorc have vastly smaller hit rates and Atk, titania is fine durably, besides, the Mist support doesn't even convert it into a 5RKO. So no bonus there. She 2HKO's most things (not Tigers, cats or generals. But she has laguz weapons for the former 2 and the +atk doesn't help against the generals), so again, the support is unimportant.

You didn't account for being able to take more enemy combinations. +3 Def means -3 damage from everything she faces, so she might be able to fight a random assortment of 8 enemies without needing healing when before she could only take 5.

"But she'll never face that many enemies in one turn!"

She doesn't have to. Chapters are many turns long, and there are a lot of enemies and only so many healers, so making a unit need less healing means I can heal other units in need more often.

But they want Mordy. Stefan only has 2 possible support partners, Ilyana only has 2 decent support partners. Oh and 'A' Mordy bring +1 def, which can help turn 2RKO's into 3RKO's.

Ilyana gets the extra Def, not Stefan. But since we've got this whole Sealing thing going on, Ilyana is going to have crap for Defense anyway. 10/10 Ilyana has 30 HP and 7 Def, so it takes 22 atk to 2HKO her, 25 with A Mordecai. Enemies start reaching and surpassing that as soon as chapter 21, and since her growth is kinda slow and her defensive growths suck, she isn't getting much better.

Also, I find it hard to believe that all of Mist, Ilyana, and Stefan will be in play to compete for Mordecai. And since I already showed that Mordecai actually does like his Mist support, that makes the others less likely.

orly?

Level 12 Jill has 26 HP, 29 avo and 13 def without the support. The strongest Fighter 3RKO's her, and said 3RKO cannot be fixed with the Mist support. The promoted halbs 6RKO her and ravens/myrmidons 5-7RKO her. Hardly a unit that's going to die frequently. Better yet, she can fly to avoid any enemies she doesn't like facing (Read:the level 15 archer) and because of the mov difference (No better than Rhys x Titania/Kieran, I might add) it probably isn't in affect all of the time in teh first place. Jill is obviously uber later on, so the support is useless there.

It's the same as with Titania. +2-3 Def allows for more enemy combinations, which means she needs less healing overall.

Of course, by that point, the steel forge will break and she has to use a steel sword, so her Atk drops by 5, as did Volke's offensive drop to daggers (though that's only +4)

I have the option of forging another sword (Don't say "favoritism". Volke does not have this option, and trades exist), and there's the Sonic Sword. A Steel forge and the Sonic Sword have 60 combined uses, 3 times the amount of Volke's Stiletto. And once she can use Silver Swords (Buyable at 23) bang, she's set.

Mist doesn't have 1-2 range anymore, the sonic sword is likely to have broken.

How fast are we using that up? She doesn't use it against everything she faces. It's still a pretty significant advantage for as long as she does have it.

Supports isn't a lead, as I've shown.

More like they are, as I've shown.

A horse isn't really a lead by itself - canto is though. But that only helps durability, but Volke has shade for that anyway.

It means she can better control what enemies she faces, like if she wants to fight Axe enemies. Shade is almost a disadvantage for Volke because it means less enemy exposure, it doesn't actually increase his concrete durability. A horse is also 9000 times better at rescuing.

Note that Volke also gets more levels from less bexp and more exp from combat in teh first place. So it all balances out, really.

When the fuck is he getting more combat? Whenever he opens a chest, that's time he isn't fighting. Take a chapter like 21, where there are like 10 chests or something. He's probably not getting any combat here. Less move, similar durability, no 1-2 range ever, etc. How the hell does he see more combat?

Hmm....

Barely loses offense. By 1 atk. Please show me if that makes a difference.

Volke can steal from enemies, too, you know, so idk where you got "He stays away from enemies" from.

Oh, and when he Steals, he also isn't fighting.

But I think you missed the most important point. Maybe you didn't quite see it, maybe you didn't see it's importance, who knows?

Except, these two are very close at both offense and durability, you've seen that. So even if you just consider those even, it's still thieving vs. healing, supports, and a horse. And of course, giving support bonuses > not.

But these two aren't primarily fighters, they're a Thief and a Healer. Being a Thief means he often stays away from combat for a few turns, but healing (With Canto, no less) keeps Mist among our fighters, so she can expose herself to enemies whenever she wants. So she'll level faster despite being a hgiher level.

We can go on and on about who's better in combat, but it's meaningless. The only way it would be significant is if Volke was very clearly winning, like if he had +5 atk, +5 Def, and +10 HP or something. But he doesn't. They're mostly even, occasionally with one winning one parameter while losing another. Since these two aren't primarily fighters, it makes any combat leads they can pull fairly minor, and leads to the other things they have. So as I said, it's thieving vs. healing, supports, and a horse.

And I noticed you never responded to Reikken's post. He had a good question: When is Volke winning?

[-Cynthia-]

I moved Sothe above Geoffrey for now.

[Zkirsche]

I concede about supports. Though helping Mordy/Titania against 2-3 enemies isn't doing much.

Also, I find it hard to believe that all of Mist, Ilyana, and Stefan will be in play to compete for Mordecai. And since I already showed that Mordecai actually does like his Mist support, that makes the others less likely.

You showed that he gets better against 2-3 enemies compared with them. Those two actually care for the Mordy support. So Mist taking a support away from them is a negative for her.

I have the option of forging another sword (Don't say "favoritism". Volke does not have this option, and trades exist), and there's the Sonic Sword. A Steel forge and the Sonic Sword have 60 combined uses, 3 times the amount of Volke's Stiletto. And once she can use Silver Swords (Buyable at 23) bang, she's set.

2 forges for Mist in such a small period of time is extreme. Volke doesn't have this option, yes, but it also means he doesn't take that away from others. Negative utility is bad for a character you know.

How fast are we using that up? She doesn't use it against everything she faces. It's still a pretty significant advantage for as long as she does have it.

Considering she doesn't ORKO without it, yes, I'm pretty sure she uses it frequently. It's 12.5 rounds of combat, so that's ~4 rounds of combat in chapters 18-20. So yeah, she probably wasn't using it against everything she faces.

It means she can better control what enemies she faces, like if she wants to fight Axe enemies. Shade is almost a disadvantage for Volke because it means less enemy exposure, it doesn't actually increase his concrete durability. A horse is also 9000 times better at rescuing.

How? A horse does that? No it doesn't. +1 mov does that. Canto makes her better at rescuing too, not a horse. What's this BS about a horse doing anything otehr than give you canto. I'm sorry, but it's either canto or a horse that's an advantage, never both.

You can easily take it off him.

Not being on a horse makes you 9000 times better at shoving yet still above to rescue if necessary.

When the fuck is he getting more combat? Whenever he opens a chest, that's time he isn't fighting. Take a chapter like 21, where there are like 10 chests or something. He's probably not getting any combat here. Less move, similar durability, no 1-2 range ever, etc. How the hell does he see more combat?

Note that Volke also gets more levels from less bexp and more exp from combat in the first place. So it all balances out, really.

I fail to see when I said he gets more combat. I said he gets more exp from combat, but that's because he is a lower level.

Barely loses offense. By 1 atk. Please show me if that makes a difference.

With A Mordy/B Jill, Mist wins offense

By 1 point. Where's the "Barely" here?

Mist wins Def

same thing.

There's a good chance of these def wins being "Barely" too.

she wins offense

This has a ~45% chance of only being "Barely" a lead.

Oh and there's the bonus Mist gives Jill in chapter 13, which is also just "Barely" an improvement.

Oh, and when he Steals, he also isn't fighting.

Enemy phase, when most of the action takes place.

We can go on and on about who's better in combat, but it's meaningless. The only way it would be significant is if Volke was very clearly winning, like if he had +5 atk, +5 Def, and +10 HP or something. But he doesn't. They're mostly even, occasionally with one winning one parameter while losing another. Since these two aren't primarily fighters, it makes any combat leads they can pull fairly minor, and leads to the other things they have. So as I said, it's thieving vs. healing, supports, and a horse.

This is true, it truly is Thieving vs Healing + canto. But I consider thieving > healing + canto as it brings nice funds to the team and many useful weapons/items for them to use (Including many high-level staves and physic staves which Mist wants to use).

And I noticed you never responded to Reikken's post. He had a good question: When is Volke winning?

Pretty much all the time. I didn't respong to his post because I lacked the time, now I don't, so here I go:

Mist is healing, and Volke is, if we are to assume he's getting enough exp to be reaching 20/2 or whatever, being babied so that he can get kills and not die, which is not only taking a unit slot while not being helpful but is also taking combat exp from other units. And he helps you get a few useful items here and there. And I do mean a few. There's nothing worth stealing yet, and many of the items in chests are pretty garbage or can be gotten without a thief. There are indeed items left over after considering that, but it's not a whole lot. Mist >> Volke

Babied? Wth? 10 levels in 13 chapters is not babying. It's ~0.77 exp per chapter, and a large part of that can be done solely through bexp (especially when you consider the max bexp you can have by this point). A level 11 Volke can ORKO a few enemies and 2RKO's quite a bit too. The main enemies he really has a problem with are the knights, both the amoured ones and the horseback ones, but they all come in clumps anyway, so are easily avoidable. Considering enemies can actually be a higher level than him at some points, and not many people are ORKOing by this point, he can team up for a kill and get some exp from it, as well as from stealing teh occasional items.

And as for dying, Mist suffers the same durability problems as Volke, expect gets 2RKO'ed by a larger portion of the map. Oh, and Mist takes up a unit slot too and stops Rhys from healing instead of her, plus, if we put a combat unit in her place, said combat unit would be killing things, so she too is stopping combat exp gain. I expected you to know that exp hogging doesn't exist.

And I'd actually view his stealing useful at this point, at the very least. Take in chapter 10, you likely only have 1 chest key usage left, so that means you can only net one of the short axe/javelin/statue frag and considering having all three would be useful, that's quite good. In Chapter 11, Makoya holds a spare laguz slayer, whcih means that both Ike and Zihark have one for chapters 12 and 13 and don't need to trade it around, which is useful and saves uses, meaning they might be able to use it in chapter 15/28 as well. Then there's an elixer in chapter 12 from Seeker, which is useful as vulneraries are fail, physics don't exist yet and nobody's quite invincible at this point. Chapter 13 has chests which can be opened by either Volke or Sothe, but considering that Soteh has much worse durability and lacks shade to help protect himself, Volke shoudl be getting a majority of the items, Volke can help nab you an occult, a speedwing, an energy drop and a laguz axe in this chapter, not to mention the killer bow for Astrid and Elfire for a sage/mage. Then there's a tonne of hidden items in chapter 15 which he is most likely to get, including a physic for Mist/Rhys to use, boots to improve Rhys' healing or Brom's offensive capabilities, a silver blade for Makalov/Ike/Zihark and a white gem + statue frag for a lot of money. Idk how long is "early on" though, so I'll just stop there for now.

Mist's supports are starting to help teammates, and she continues healing and stuff. Then she also promotes after a while, also gaining a horse and the ability to attack. She's very clearly better than Volke at combat at this point, as Volke is unpromoted and has only access to daggers (he has like 20 atk).

And Volke is more of the same. He still sucks at combat, though he sucks a bit less now. Mist >>

Okay, so Mist is beating Volke in combat, Volke was crushing Mist in combat for the past ~9 chapters. I assume you meant better with the onic sword as Mist only beats Volke by a couple of points in str otherwise and doesn't ORKO much, so it matters less. PLus, Volke can double a few enemies Mist can't, so the difference between them is closer still.

Oh yeah, and there's even more items that Volke can get you. A full guard in chapter 16, which is incredibly useful for a unit like Marcia or even Jill in the upcoming chapters with the ballistaem take a look at some numbers:

--/10 Tanith with full guard, for example, only takes 3 damage from a normal ballista (9%), but without full guard she takes 21 (60%).

20/1 Marcia takes ~4 (13%) with full guard, but ~22 (69%) without.

20/1 Jill takes less than 1 point with full guard, but ~19 (52%) without.

so getting the full guard is essentially healing these units ~50% of their each time they get hit from a ballistae. Then he can save a unit 2 HP per attack by getting teh dracoshield and even more with the physic. Ashera icon helps either him or Stefan from getting critblicked. So it can save quite a but of HP there. Bolting stops mages from having to rush onto enemy frontlines, putting them in danger mroe than what they would with bolting. So that saves a bit of HP, too. Volke makes a pretty awesome healer, dontcha think? He might not get all of these, but he can at least get a few, which adds to his utility. In chapter 17, he can get some mends and a physic, saving us some money with the former and helping out our healers with the latter. He can also get a seige tome if he's ferried over there by Jill/Marcia. He can also get 2 from chapter 18 as well. And some mends and an elixer, futhering his aid to team durability. And in chapter 19 he can steal a short spear, not sold by shops, and even... a sonic sword!!!11! So now we can help address Mist's non-sonic sword offence, all thanks to Volke. If we don't want an extra sonic sword (Why not?), he can just get us a silver sword instead, which is like a max steel forge, saving you a forging opportunity, gee, thanks Volke.

Volke promotes, so he's just bad at combat rather than sucking: for a chapter and a bit of the next, he has no access to stilettos, so his offense is still pretty garbage. After that, it's acceptable every time he sees it fit to use up 2 of his 20 stiletto uses. As far as combat goes, Mist's horse, massive res, and 25 uses of massive rape whenever > Volke's... nothing, really.

Then supports and healing (with few to no physics) vs Volke's very few items here and there (since staves are being excluded due to that being shared by both)

Staves not only help MIst, but they help Rhys/Soren/Ilyana/Tormod too. So don't exclude them for your conveniance. Their utility with said staves increases, and that can be credited to Volke. Oh, and said 25 uses of massive rape will wear away pretty fast, much like the stilleto. If we steal the sonic sword, then what Mist does can be credited to Volke.

Oh yeah, and there's quite a bit other staves Volke can nab, take a look at a list of the useful items he can nab from chests alone in chapters 21 and 22:

Thoron (21)

Talisman (21)

Energy Drop (21)

Stiletto (21)

Brave Sword (21)

Master Seal (21)

Spirit Dust (22)

Nosferatu (22)

Sleep (22)

Bolganone (22)

Tomahawk (22)

Silver Bow (22)

Awesome. Of course, there's also a short spear to be nabbed in chapter 20, as well as a possible blizzard and elixer. (And 3 mends and a physic, but since that undermines Mist's usefulness even more, we should ignore it amirite? Wrong.) As well as an elixer, there are 2 sleep staves that can be collected in chapter 21 and 2 mends and a physic. That's very helpful. In chapter 22 there's also a tonne of priests, and some of them are bound to have a few staves to steal. Again, I don't know how long you were talking about, but in chapter 23 Volke can help nab you an elixer, physic and mend. More with the silence stave. I'll go as far as chapter 24, where he nets you a mend, possibly a short axe, possibly a silver blade and a short spear. A bolganone with a silence stave (also collected by Volke back in chapter 18).

silver swords, horse again, gaining exp fater for increasing stat leads, and whatever's left of that h4x sword > Volke's nothing

and same old for non combat stuff

Thier offence is still similar with just silver swords, just not silver forges. How does she gain exp faster despite the fact she's a higher level? That sword is likely broken by now. I love how before it was "Volke stops others from killing things and getting exp" yet now it's "Mist can kill things, which is a good thing."

Just to clear things up, in chapter 25 Volke can net you 3 mends, a physic and an elixer. In chapter 26, he can get us a meteor, 2 mends, a physic, a sleep stave, a short axe, 3 short spears, a spear, and an elixer. In chapter 27, excluding chests, he gets us 2 boltings, 2 physics, a meteor, a sleep, a silence (which means we can steal mages weapons too) and a spear or brave lance. In chapter 28, there's a meteor, 2 mends, a silence (and many mage tomes because of it), a bolting, a sleep stave and an elixer. I'll ignore endgame for your convenience as this is getting too tl;dr IMO. Here's a list of what he can get you from chests in chapter 27:

Bolganone (27)

Resolve (27)

Laguz Axe (27)

Fortify (27)

Spear (27)

Silver Lance (27)

Physic (27)

All are useful in many ways I think are rather obvious/I've already explained.

---------------

To conclude, Volke is an indirect helper: his main job isn't to heal or fight (the latter is just a bonus to his utility). What he does is help others to heal and to fight. Without him, a vast majority of the game's physic stocks wouldn't exist, weakening characters like Rhys, a lot of funds would be lost, forcing limitations on weapons bought and forges made, and a lot of great weapons will be lost (high level magic tomes, seige tomes and better 1-2 range weapons). With him in play, the need for a healer is less needed (Thanks to stolen elixers and vulneraries), reducing the worth Mist has, and since he's also reducing the advantage Mist has over other units due to her horse by giving all the other healers multiple physics, I'd say her healing utility is just not worth as much as Volke's thieving utility, and since their combat is quite similar (similar when Mist uses steel forges + silver swords. Mist wins with the sonic sword and any silver forge (though the negative for needing a forge to be > still exists), but Volke contributes combat utility for a longer period of time. So I'd say they're abotu even in combat utility), and her support bonuses only help 2 characters against 2-3 enemies per chapter and this isn't all the time (When they're not in range and when Mordy's untransformed), I'd say this lead is what makes Volke > Mist.

This answers this question:

How is Volke better?

Tbh, he could easily rise with Mist into high if that's what's bothering people.

Edited August 31, 2009 by kirsche

[Reikken]

This has a ~45% chance of only being "Barely" a lead.

Something tells me you don't have a good grasp of what's actually going on with the stat probabilities.

What exactly are you talking about? For every downward deviation, there is an upward one (caps and such aside), and it applies to both characters in a comparison.

To conclude, Volke is an indirect helper: he doesn't heal or fight.

Then how is he reaching 20/2?

Edited August 31, 2009 by Reikken

[Zkirsche]

Then how is he reaching 20/2? You didn't address my post at all, sir.

I worded that badly, he fights, yes, but he can do so much more. The fighting he does, as well as the bexp he can get, can easily get him to level 20 before promotion and then he has all of chapter 20 and chapter 21's bexp supply to get him an extra level. Remember that he's underlevelled as well. All of this I stated in my post.

[Florete]

Yeah, kirsche, I don't think you've seen how terrible Volke is at combat at first. Giving him two level of BEXP so he has 13 Str/14 AS. Knife has 2 MT, so 15 atk.

1x Lance Knight lv 11 (steel lance)
28 hp, 19 atk, 6 AS, 85 hit, 15 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev
3x Lance Knight lv 12 (steel lance)
27 hp, 20 atk, 7 AS, 85 hit, 17 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev
3x Lance Knight lv 13 (steel lance)
29 hp, 20 atk, 8 AS, 85 hit, 19 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev
1x Lance Knight lv 14 (steel lance)
28 hp, 20 atk, 8 AS, 90 hit, 20 avo, 12 def, 5 res, 4 crit, 4 cev
3x Sword Knight lv 13 (steel sword)
28 hp, 18 atk, 9 AS, 93 hit, 22 avo, 12 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 4 cev
1x Bow Knight lv 11 (iron bow)
27 hp, 16 atk, 10 AS, 100 hit, 23 avo, 11 def, 4 res, 3 crit, 3 cev

Double 4's at best. Rofl at 4 rounding at best.

2x Knight lv 13 (steel lance)
29 hp, 21 atk, 2 AS, 89 hit, 7 avo, 16 def, 5 res, 4 crit, 3 cev
1x Knight lv 12 (javelin)
29 hp, 17 atk, 4 AS, 76 hit, 10 avo, 17 def, 5 res, 3 crit, 2 cev

Tink

1x Soldier lv 9 (steel lance)
26 hp, 17 atk, 1 AS, 88 hit, 4 avo, 7 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev
2x Soldier lv 10 (steel lance)
28 hp, 18 atk, 3 AS, 90 hit, 8 avo, 8 def, 3 res, 4 crit, 2 cev

Even here he's barely 2 rounding (He won't get the last two guys if he didn't get Str).

So yeah, it takes him some babying. I'll get to the rest of your post later, but I wanted to make sure that was cleared up.

[Reikken]

Babied? Wth? 10 levels in 13 chapters is not babying. It's ~0.77 exp per chapter, and a large part of that can be done solely through bexp (especially when you consider the max bexp you can have by this point). A level 11 Volke can ORKO a few enemies and 2RKO's quite a bit too. The main enemies he really has a problem with are the knights, both the amoured ones and the horseback ones, but they all come in clumps anyway, so are easily avoidable. Considering enemies can actually be a higher level than him at some points, and not many people are ORKOing by this point, he can team up for a kill and get some exp from it, as well as from stealing teh occasional items.

And as for dying, Mist suffers the same durability problems as Volke, expect gets 2RKO'ed by a larger portion of the map. Oh, and Mist takes up a unit slot too and stops Rhys from healing instead of her, plus, if we put a combat unit in her place, said combat unit would be killing things, so she too is stopping combat exp gain. I expected you to know that exp hogging doesn't exist.

"Exp hogging", if that's what you want to call it, does indeed exist. It's just that it every fighter does it, so we usually ignore it, as it applies to everyone just the same. Everyone has to share combat exp. However, when comparing a healer or dancer thing to a fighter, the fighter has the disadvantage of having to draw from that much more limited combat exp pool.

Yes, the saff exp pool is limited as well, but usually, as it is in this case, the limit is so huge that it doesn't matter. You have only two healers, and like 8+ units taking damage. There's way more than enough for two healers to be healing all the time.

Yes, Mist's defenses are indeed quite poor early on. However, that's not a problem like it is for Volke. Volke has to get up in the enemy's face to gain exp, and almost always take a counterattack as well. Mist...doesn't.

Now... Volke ORKing things? Like what?

Here's a lv 11 Volke:

Knife: 14.5 atk, 13.6 AS, 134.5 hit, 11.6 crit - - 34.5 avo, 25.7 hp, 7.2 def, 3.1 res, 7.3 critavo

That's pretty cool AS, but lulz attack power and defenses.

ch 11 features mostly cavaliers, which he does about 3 x2 damage to and takes 13 on the counterattack from, but there are some soldiers, and...mages! Surely he can one-round those, right? 5 def, 23 hp, 9-10 AS. Nope. Even mages he can't 2HK. In fact, the wind one he might not even double.

[Zkirsche]

Even here he's barely 2 rounding (He won't get the last two guys if he didn't get Str).

So yeah, it takes him some babying. I'll get to the rest of your post later, but I wanted to make sure that was cleared up.

I mentioned said enemies in my post (sans the soldiers, but i generalised the 2RKO's), and the chance het gets str > chance he doesn't get it. Remember: he can always be blessed as well. Not to mention he can team up with others for a kill considering not everyone's ORKO'ing at this point. He also doesn't need many of it, so none of this "babying" please.

2x Soldier lv 10 (steel lance)

This guy gives Volke 10 exp per hit and 25 per kill.

1x Mage lv 12 (wind)

This guy gets Volke 11 exp per hit and 28 per kill.

2x Priest lv 12 (heal)

These guys are ORKO'ed by Volke, netting him a nice 28 exp per kill.

Basically, he can kill a priest and a soldier whilst only attacking the mage and the other soldier to get him 74 cexp, the rest if easy to do with just bexp, and when including thiving, he probably doesn't even need to kill the soldier to get the amount he wants.

Knife: 14.5 atk

14.55 atk actually. Excluding possible band usage. And again, a lot of that can be done through just bexp and attacking some of the weaker enemies, some of which he can team up to kill.

Yes, Mist's defenses are indeed quite poor early on. However, that's not a problem like it is for Volke. Volke has to get up in the enemy's face to gain exp, and almost always take a counterattack as well. Mist...doesn't.

Mist has to heal allies who are in the face of danger a lot.

However, when comparing a healer or dancer thing to a fighter, the fighter has the disadvantage of having to draw from that much more limited combat exp pool.

Then what about later on? Volke doesn't have to combat anymore, so Mist loses for hogging exp. Now it's all nice and balanced. so we can continue with the main argument:

Healing vs Thieving.

Edited August 31, 2009 by kirsche

[Reikken]

True enough, lesser amounts of exp is easier to get. However, most chapters don't have priests, significantly reducing the exp he can easily get. It makes that ~75 more like ~50. Also, when he has actual use (is opening chests and stuff), he isn't gaining as much exp since opening chests doesn't give exp. For those chapters, he can now actually compete with Mist in use, but he gains less exp for it. 13, 16, ...and that's it. So

14.55 atk actually

Oh ok. My bad. I was off by 0.05 points. Sorry.

But in all seriousness, that is an interesting point, even if the details for this particular point are rather worthless: Band usage can be assumed on bexp level ups. I don't think it'll make a notable difference, though. Like +0.25 str late game.

Also, it's worth noting fixed mode base growth points:

Volke: 45 hp, 45 skl, 90 luck.

Mist: 60 hp, 50 str, 90 mag, 80 skl, 25 spd, 50 def, 50 res

[Zkirsche]

True enough, lesser amounts of exp is easier to get. However, most chapters don't have priests, significantly reducing the exp he can easily get. It makes that ~75 more like ~50. Also, when he has actual use (is opening chests and stuff), he isn't gaining as much exp since opening chests doesn't give exp. For those chapters, he can now actually compete with Mist in use, but he gains less exp for it. 13, 16, ...and that's it. So

There will be a few turns where he can at least team up for a kill. And there's always bexp to think about.

Oh ok. My bad. I was off by 0.05 points. Sorry.

But in all seriousness, that is an interesting point, even if the details for this particular point are rather worthless: Band usage can be assumed on bexp level ups. I don't think it'll make a notable difference, though. Like +0.25 str late game.

Sorry, I'm quite pedantic, to me, 0.6 shows that it's more likely to round up than down (55% growth + band usage = 0.6).

Also, it's worth noting fixed mode base growth points:

Volke: 45 hp, 45 skl, 90 luck.

Mist: 60 hp, 50 str, 90 mag, 80 skl, 25 spd, 50 def, 50 res

I always thought this list was random mode, but idk if it is or not.

[Reikken]

Mist has to heal allies who are in the face of danger a lot.

And? That doesn't mean that Mist herself is. Being behind someone who has an enemy in front (Mist healing someone who is right next to an enemy) is very different from being right next to an enemy (Volke, not even attacking), and more different still from taking a counterattack from an enemy and also being right next to an enemy (Volke, attacking).

But yeah, if it's only 1 or 2 outlying enemies per chapter, even Volke should be ok. He's not doing much other than wasting a unit slot, but he should be ok as far as needing to be babied goes.

Then what about later on? Volke doesn't have to combat anymore, so Mist loses for hogging exp.

If Volke isn't fighting later, then he loses out on the utility provided by him finally having somewhat decent combat ability.

Also, taking exp early, when people really need those levels, has more of a negative effect than taking exp later, after everyone has already promoted.

Sorry, I'm quite pedantic, to me, 0.6 shows that it's more likely to round up than down (55% growth + band usage = 0.6).

Actually, both have a 0% chance to round either up or down. Stats do not round, ever. Unless you mean fixed mode, in which case it's always a 100% chance to round down. I'm certain we've been over this before.

[Florete]

I concede about supports. Though helping Mordy/Titania against 2-3 enemies isn't doing much.

2-3 enemies? Riiiight. Except I showed multiple enemies the offense helps Mordecai against (Definitely more than 3) and the Def helps Titania/Jill all the time, in every map for which it's active, so your 2-3 builds up into something 35-40. I don't see Volke helping in such a way.

You showed that he gets better against 2-3 enemies compared with them. Those two actually care for the Mordy support. So Mist taking a support away from them is a negative for her.

It goes both ways. Them taking the support from Mist is a negative for them. And since Mordecai isn't helped as much by them, it's a greater negative. Opportunity costs suggest giving the support to Mist.

By the way, only one has to be out of play for it to not matter at all. If Ilyana is out, Stefan gets a B, because A only nets them more Hit. If Ilyana is in, she takes B also.

Mordy, A Ilyana, B Mist: +5 Def, +3 atk, +7 Hit

Mordy, A Mist, B Ilyana: +5 Def, +4 atk, +5 Hit

A Mist >>>. Ilyana can also take Zihark, or Gatrie if he's in play.

2 forges for Mist in such a small period of time is extreme.

No siree, it's not. I think you missed the "trades" part. Mist can share a forge with the likes of Ike, Zihark, and Stefan.

Volke doesn't have this option, yes, but it also means he doesn't take that away from others.

Yeah, it just means his combat continues to suck.

Considering she doesn't ORKO without it, yes, I'm pretty sure she uses it frequently.

...Huh? How does "I don't always kill with" = "I always use it?" She uses when she needs to attack from range, which she doesn't always do. I'm pretty sure we don't assume Jill, Kieran, and Boyd are always tossing Hand Axes around.

How? A horse does that? No it doesn't. +1 mov does that. Canto makes her better at rescuing too, not a horse. What's this BS about a horse doing anything otehr than give you canto. I'm sorry, but it's either canto or a horse that's an advantage, never both.

I don't know if you're just being smart with me or if you're serious, but I think it's obvious what I mean by "a horse." +2 move, Canto, Rescuing.

Not being on a horse makes you 9000 times better at shoving yet still above to rescue if necessary.

Rescue >>> Shove. And Volke should never Rescue.

Enemy phase, when most of the action takes place.

If he steals from someone, I expect he isn't the only guy there, and someone else will come in and kill.

This is true, it truly is Thieving vs Healing + canto. But I consider thieving > healing + canto as it brings nice funds to the team and many useful weapons/items for them to use (Including many high-level staves and physic staves which Mist wants to use).

I consider healing >>> because it keeps my team alive. I can do without most of the items Volke gets, or use Chest Keys, but at least one healer can be paramount to efficient play.

And I'd actually view his stealing useful at this point, at the very least. Take in chapter 10, you likely only have 1 chest key usage left, so that means you can only net one of the short axe/javelin/statue frag and considering having all three would be useful, that's quite good.

Javelins have already been buyable, so screw that. One of the others might be nice, though.

In Chapter 11, Makoya holds a spare laguz slayer, whcih means that both Ike and Zihark have one for chapters 12 and 13 and don't need to trade it around, which is useful and saves uses, meaning they might be able to use it in chapter 15/28 as well.

You have to get him to equip his Iron Bow, which might not happen.

Then there's an elixer in chapter 12 from Seeker, which is useful as vulneraries are fail, physics don't exist yet and nobody's quite invincible at this point.

Lol at 6 levels by the end of his second map (Seeker has 16 AS).

Chapter 13 has chests which can be opened by either Volke or Sothe, but considering that Soteh has much worse durability and lacks shade to help protect himself, Volke shoudl be getting a majority of the items, Volke can help nab you an occult, a speedwing, an energy drop and a laguz axe in this chapter, not to mention the killer bow for Astrid and Elfire for a sage/mage.

Sothe can, and probably will because of our turn limit, still get some chests. Also, the Ravens that come will open them, and you can then kill them to get the drop. So Volke isn't actually necessary for any of those.

Then there's a tonne of hidden items in chapter 15 which he is most likely to get, including a physic for Mist/Rhys to use, boots to improve Rhys' healing or Brom's offensive capabilities, a silver blade for Makalov/Ike/Zihark and a white gem + statue frag for a lot of money. Idk how long is "early on" though, so I'll just stop there for now.

Considering we want to clear it fast (7 turns for max) there's no way he gets everything. He might not even get help from our fliers if we go for max BEXP, because they'd have to go kill Muarim.

Okay, so Mist is beating Volke in combat, Volke was crushing Mist in combat for the past ~9 chapters. I assume you meant better with the onic sword as Mist only beats Volke by a couple of points in str otherwise and doesn't ORKO much, so it matters less. PLus, Volke can double a few enemies Mist can't, so the difference between them is closer still.

I laugh at sucking at combat being "crushing." And Volke doubles, like, maybe 2 enemies in a given map that Mist doesn't.

Oh yeah, and there's even more items that Volke can get you. A full guard in chapter 16, which is incredibly useful for a unit like Marcia or even Jill in the upcoming chapters with the ballistaem take a look at some numbers:

And in chapter 19 he can steal a short spear, not sold by shops, and even... a sonic sword!!!11! So now we can help address Mist's non-sonic sword offence, all thanks to Volke. If we don't want an extra sonic sword (Why not?), he can just get us a silver sword instead, which is like a max steel forge, saving you a forging opportunity, gee, thanks Volke.

When is Volke's promotion again? I'm pretty sure it's after this map, which means he can't steal from Homasa because the guy has 20 AS. And to get the Short Spear, the Steel Lance would have to be equipped, but that's unlikely because enemies generally prefer attacking at range.

Thoron (21)

Talisman (21)

Energy Drop (21)

Stiletto (21)

Brave Sword (21)

Master Seal (21)

Spirit Dust (22)

Nosferatu (22)

Sleep (22)

Bolganone (22)

Tomahawk (22)

Silver Bow (22)

Awesome. Of course, there's also a short spear to be nabbed in chapter 20, as well as a possible blizzard and elixer. (And 3 mends and a physic, but since that undermines Mist's usefulness even more, we should ignore it amirite? Wrong.) As well as an elixer, there are 2 sleep staves that can be collected in chapter 21 and 2 mends and a physic. That's very helpful. In chapter 22 there's also a tonne of priests, and some of them are bound to have a few staves to steal. Again, I don't know how long you were talking about, but in chapter 23 Volke can help nab you an elixer, physic and mend. More with the silence stave. I'll go as far as chapter 24, where he nets you a mend, possibly a short axe, possibly a silver blade and a short spear. A bolganone with a silence stave (also collected by Volke back in chapter 18).

Again, he won't get everything. We have Chest Keys when needed and Sothe. You can't credit everything to him. At best, you can give him most of the stuff he steals (since Sothe might lack the AS) and maybe half the chests.

Thier offence is still similar with just silver swords, just not silver forges. How does she gain exp faster despite the fact she's a higher level?

Staves give more experience than stealing.

That sword is likely broken by now. I love how before it was "Volke stops others from killing things and getting exp" yet now it's "Mist can kill things, which is a good thing."

Before it was "Volke sucks at combat but needs it to reach level 20." Now it's "Both can fight but don't really need to." Mist also did not have to go through sucking at combat to get to fairly good combat. And combat is the only thing keeping Volke from being replaced by Sothe anyway, while Mist has various advantages on the other healers.

In chapter 26, he can get us a meteor, 2 mends, a physic, a sleep stave, a short axe, 3 short spears, a spear, and an elixer.

Hold up there, buddy. First, determine the usefulness of all of those. I'm pretty sure we already have some Physic, so more might be overkill. All those ranged weapons probably aren't doing much of anything either because our units are uber at this point. And then that's also 11 items when we only have 13 turns to clear the map for max BEXP, and he won't always be in range of one of them.

In chapter 27, excluding chests, he gets us 2 boltings, 2 physics, a meteor, a sleep, a silence (which means we can steal mages weapons too) and a spear or brave lance.

Same situation. It's pretty much impossible for him to get everything on his own without wasting turns, and some of it just isn't as valuable anymore.

Without him, a vast majority of the game's physic stocks wouldn't exist,

It appears Sothe no longer exists.

a lot of funds would be lost,

Free 20k + 50k isn't enough for you? Plus whatever we don't actually need Volke for?

With him in play, the need for a healer is less needed (Thanks to stolen elixers and vulneraries),

Healing has always been >> self healing.

and her support bonuses only help 2 characters against 2-3 enemies per chapter and this isn't all the time (When they're not in range and when Mordy's untransformed),

You're still underrating her support bonuses. Helping two units both kill and survive just by existing >>> Volke running off to steal stuff.

And if Mordy ever gets attacked untransformed, the Def is now pretty nice.

Tbh, he could easily rise with Mist into high if that's what's bothering people.

Kinda, but Volke > Mist is what's bothering me more.

I mentioned said enemies in my post (sans the soldiers, but i generalised the 2RKO's), and the chance het gets str > chance he doesn't get it. Remember: he can always be blessed as well. Not to mention he can team up with others for a kill considering not everyone's ORKO'ing at this point. He also doesn't need many of it, so none of this "babying" please.

Basically, he can kill a priest and a soldier whilst only attacking the mage and the other soldier to get him 74 cexp, the rest if easy to do with just bexp, and when including thiving, he probably doesn't even need to kill the soldier to get the amount he wants.

So all he does at combat is strictly self improvement since he really isn't helping to clear out enemies faster (I think everyone is better at combat at this point, since even base level Nephenee can grab a forge). Unless he sticks to just guys he can ORKO (Priests) and attacking when there's nothing better for him to do, engaging him in combat is more negative than positive when compared to Mist.

Then what about later on? Volke doesn't have to combat anymore, so Mist loses for hogging exp. Now it's all nice and balanced. so we can continue with the main argument:

And now Mist has to fight? How many times have I said that they don't even fight that often? Volke getting experience to get to his "I don't suck" point is a negative no matter how you look at it unless he stays away from almost any combat.

[Eltoshen]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

[Dat Nick]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

...?????

...Am I the only one not figuring out how?

And besides that, his aid. 11 con [Thats what's used for Rescuing, right?]...sucks. Look at everybody that can't rescue [Wt is used to determine that, right?]

[Colonel M]

Actually, I think you just disregarded the fact that Volke has shade, which makes him a perfect candidate for rescuing others.

...?????

...Am I the only one not figuring out how?

And besides that, his aid. 11 con [Thats what's used for Rescuing, right?]...sucks. Look at everybody that can't rescue [Wt is used to determine that, right?]

HE CAN RESCUE MIST!!!

As for Volke's combat... it could be a lot worse. Weapon Knights are fairly difficult to kill in the first place.