FE9 Tier list v3

[Colonel M]

*Cracks Knuckles*

Just like Volke's combat is even more reliant on Stiletto's,which are more limited than forges?

Give me a break. Stiletto comes twice (Bastian, m'dear) and it doesn't have to be used all the time.

As for team size,it may not be set,but using even 11-12 people means Mist can still have 2 forges to herself.If we use less people than 10,Mist can probably use 3 to herself with no consequence.

K, so the question is... when? And how are we getting the money as well?

*Looks at Volke*.

Gee, another thing that was denied.

Not to mention,Mist also has the sonic sword,and won`t be fighting all the time,only when she doesn`t need to heal.Her forges last her fine.

Ah, here we go. The good ol' favoritism argument.

Here's what I practically need to do in order to make Mist useful, aside from healing:

1) Throw on 2 Arms Scrolls (which could've been sold or used on someone else)

2) Take a weapon that works perfectly fine on other units or could be used as WyvernKillers.

3) I heard arguments of BEXP somewhere too.

...And we're bickering on Volke getting the shit. What?

As for Sothe,if Volke can level,so can Sothe.If blossom is a problem for him,get rid of it.Sothe also has nearly double Volke`s def growth,so he improves more with the same levels,and gets them faster.

Good luck. We talk about Volke's combat being bad, let's look at that:

7 Atk.

...Can that even DENT MYRMIDIONS!?!

Not to mention that Sothe, in order to match Volke's durability at base must be Level 9. Blossom is also a double-edged sword: either he levels a bit slower and gains higher stats, or he levels faster and doesn't gain as well of stats.

As for Volke`s early offense,Kirsche conveniently showed the weak volunteers.Against the weapon knights,the most common enemy on the map,he is pathetic.

Except something that was missed that I asked in a very good question: is everyone doing significantly better? These things aren't easy to dent in the first place. I've stated it over and over again. He's also talked about C13 I believe, which isn't as Cav-heavy.

Anyway, what I'm asking is something that is simple. Either side to show that Volke's combat is either comparable or terrible.

Then lolRaven`s that Volke probably doesn`t double.

No.

But he isn't doubled unlike a lot of the cast.

He's also able to steal some of the items here. Not everything has to be a contribution combat-wise.

he does ok in 13,but he`s thieving then anyway.

...

then 15 is lolLaguz.His combat fails here.

Oh geez. His combat fails pends on if they're fully transformed. Then, he's also going through the desert having a 100% chance of picking up an item. Though again, you're pointing toward combat.

by 16 his 2-3RKOing is getting pretty Meh,and then 17 has cavs and Mist`s promotion.

2-3RKOing is much better than, say, 4-5RKOing. My question, again, is if it's comparable.

As for C17, it pends. 17-2 and 17-4 are the only ones. Also, there's FoW (at least... I think).

Though what I'm asking is something that's simple, and something I shouldn't be expected to do. Not Volke's combat in general, but once again: how much is the team doing better or worse. Simply all I ask.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Colonel M

[Ether]

Ok then,let`s compare him to some people then.(Btw this is with no bands)

Kieran:he doubles about the same,and loses str by 1,but with an Iron axe he has 5 more Mt that Volke.lol + 10 damage per round.

Oscar:at lvl 12 wins Mt by 3 with plain Iron,doubles quite a bit of what volke does,With steel,against Cavs,he does as much in one hit as volke does in 3.

Ike: at level 12 matches Mt with Iron,same AS.can use steel or a forge for Mt.

Boyd:At level 12 with steel he matches Volke`s damage in 4 hits with a single hit.

Ilyana: at 10/1 she has + 3 Mt with Elthunder,but the def res gap is 7.lolRape.

Soren:at 10/1 he has 1 less AS than Volke with +1 Mt with thunder,or get`s + 4 Mt and hits res with elthunder

Mia: at 12 she has + 3 Mt and matches AS with steel,or could share a forge with Ike.

Need I go on?

Edited September 2, 2009 by Ether

[Florete]

Give me a break. Stiletto comes twice (Bastian, m'dear) and it doesn't have to be used all the time.

It does if he doesn't want to lose 4 atk. And Ether accounted for Bastian's Stiletto.

K, so the question is... when? And how are we getting the money as well?

Did you miss my 110k point? Volke is not necessary for money.

1) Throw on 2 Arms Scrolls (which could've been sold or used on someone else)

No, 1. I've shown how this is possible before. And who the hell else wants one anyway?

2) Take a weapon that works perfectly fine on other units or could be used as WyvernKillers.

How is this a point?

3) I heard arguments of BEXP somewhere too.

Yeah, like Volke getting a massive dump of it?

Except something that was missed that I asked in a very good question: is everyone doing significantly better?

Yes. With two levels of BEXP, Volke has 15 atk, which has already been shown to be pretty bad. Level 11 Ike with a Steel Sword has 18. Level 11 Mia with a Steel Sword has 18 (And she's freakin' Low tier). Level 11 Oscar with just an Iron Lance has 16. Marcia is about tied with Iron Lance. So is Nephenee, but both have access to forges. Brom beats him. All the Axe people easily beats him. And I only need a level 6 Rolf with a Steel Bow to beat Volke's atk.

All of them can use forges, and that was Volke with two levels of BEXP. Mia and Rolf need to go up if his combat is a positive. Like, a lot.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Just wondering, assuming Mist has an A in staves by the time of promotion, what's the chance she'll get to S staves instead of C Swords? Is it just 50%?

And if Rhys falls behind due to no horse, how come Reyson isn't affected by this as well?

[Eltoshen]

-Healing (Of which we also have Rhys, but the master seal arrives in this chapter. She cannot use it due to level. This means Illin/Soren could use it and bam, we have yet another staff user).

How are they ready to promote already by the time Mist joins? Are you playing easy mode? Because if that's so, I was able to get Gatrie promoted before he left my group. >_>

However, I'll state it again: Volke and Mist have totally different purposes. Debating over who's more useful is foolish since everybody has different playing styles.

@above: Everybody seems hellbent over not killing the laguz, so your argument won't hold any ground here. And his utility is REQUIREDAMAZING in that chapter if you want to get all the items.

He wanted to see Volke`s combat,so i showed it to him.besides,if the only thing we are killing is Muarim,then lol at Volke.Sothe can also find items just like Volke.

Except Sothe is far less durable and dies way more easily. Oops!

[uzy5o]

I think some people are missing the fact that Sothe can do everything Volke can do. Being better at combat hardly means anything when it still sucks.

You can't use the same logic on Mist, though, because having two healers > one healer.

[Eltoshen]

I think some people are missing the fact that Sothe can do everything Volke can do. Being better at combat hardly means anything when it still sucks.

You can't use the same logic on Mist, though, because having two healers > one healer.

More like: you ignored my post. Sothe is one of the first enemies target, unlike with Volke.

[Lord Raven]

And Volke can steal more things from the getgo.

[uzy5o]

A good player shouldn't let Sothe (or Volke, for that matter) get targeted.

And Volke can steal more things from the getgo.

Priests/bishops are slow enough for base level Sothe to steal from until C26. At least according to the enemy stats page.

Edited September 2, 2009 by uzy5o

[Colonel M]

Ok then,let`s compare him to some people then.(Btw this is with no bands)

Kieran:he doubles about the same,and loses str by 1,but with an Iron axe he has 5 more Mt that Volke.lol + 10 damage per round.

Oscar:at lvl 12 wins Mt by 3 with plain Iron,doubles quite a bit of what volke does,With steel,against Cavs,he does as much in one hit as volke does in 3.

Ike: at level 12 matches Mt with Iron,same AS.can use steel or a forge for Mt.

Boyd:At level 12 with steel he matches Volke`s damage in 4 hits with a single hit.

Ilyana: at 10/1 she has + 3 Mt with Elthunder,but the def res gap is 7.lolRape.

Soren:at 10/1 he has 1 less AS than Volke with +1 Mt with thunder,or get`s + 4 Mt and hits res with elthunder

Mia: at 12 she has + 3 Mt and matches AS with steel,or could share a forge with Ike.

Need I go on?

Finally. This was what I wanted.

Okay, fine. Mist > Volke I agree on.

[Eltoshen]

A good player shouldn't let Sothe (or Volke, for that matter) get targeted.

And Volke can steal more things from the getgo.

Priests/bishops are slow enough for base level Sothe to steal from until C26. At least according to the enemy stats page.

Again, that all depends on how you play. You don't have to worry about Volke being killed as much as you do with Sothe.

And why shouldn't Volke be targeted? He isn't frail and does quite a nice bit of chip damage.

[Tino]

Just wanted to say this to kirsche...

She doesn't let Ilyana/Stefan get a support. That loses them Atk and def, the latter neither are very strong on.

This is also in response to this: So? that's their problem, not Volke's. Mist still gets negative utility from pushing them out the way.

Please. Perhaps it's true that Mist attains some negative contribution by "pushing" some other support partners "out of the way", but even these negativivities aren't as horrible as you seem to claim them to be. For you're forgetting a few factors.

1 - Are those other units actually in play for them to be pushed out?

2 - Do the other units actually care about the possible bonuses they lose?

3 - Are we talking about a bunch of characters that are all doing their individual jobs or are we talking about a team of units that cooperate to achieve their goal?

For the first question, it's questionable for quite a few units.

Titania's support partners are all fairly good, so it's not entirely unlikely for them to be in play. However, when we come to Mordecai's support list, quite a few changes. Ulki and Ranulf are either not good or not worth waiting for, and Stefan is only decent. Though, even if he's being played, there's no reason to have him A support with Mordecai, because +1 Def, +1 Atk and +7 Hit is essentially the same as +1 Def, +1 Atk and +5 Hit. Neither Stefan nor Mordecai cares even the slightest bit about 2 Hit due to their weaponry and/or Skl. Then there's Ilyana, but Red Fox already provided a good sample for that.

Then there's Jill. Jill can support Haar and Lethe. Haar is only "meh-ish", not to mention he joins quite late for such mediocre bonuses. I mean, +1 Def and +15/+22 Avo - dependent on whether it's an A or B support, though the former seems highly unlikely to me - is nothing to write home about, while +2/+3 Def, +1 Atk and +5/+7 Avo is quite a bit better. Then there's Lethe, who provides even worse bonuses than Haar does. Mist is definitely the character she wants most, also because it's among the fastest supports in the game and provides pretty great bonuses.

Finally there's Boyd, who is the support Mist wants the least anyway, so I honestly can't be bothered to go into more detail about him.

On to the second question. Do the other units actually care about the bonuses? For Titania's supports, Ike essentially gets even more overkill durability, not to mention it's a horribly slow support and they have a movement difference of 2 to 3. The same movement difference applies to Boyd, and he obtains +1 Def and +1 Atk, as well as +15 Hit. The Hit might actually come in useful when he has negative biorhytm or something, and the +1 Def might be useful in a few instances, but overall Boyd probably doesn't worry too much without a Titania support. Rhys's durability will still suck even with +1 Def, and +1 Atk won't increase his offense at all, so Rhys doesn't care at all. In other words, they all don't care if Titania supports Mist.

Mordecai is next. Ilyana can use the +3 Def very well, granted. Though, as Red Fox mentioned, A Mist/B Ilyana is still the preferred way to go. Then Stefan's offense won't rise much if any at all with +3 Atk, because his crit rate and Astra skill will take care of enemies in most instances (provided you don't take Astra off of him, of course). Finally there's Ulki, who would definitely enjoy the bonuses, and then there's Ranulf who doesn't care much about +1 Atk and +1 Def. So what's better? Water x Water early, or Water x Water late? I'd go for the former, thus Mist is still the best option.

Then there's Jill. Haar doesn't give shit about more durability - as if his wasn't large enough already. Lethe... I doubt she'll do anything good with 1 Def and 5 Avo.

And finally Boyd doesn't matter too much, for he's the one Mist wants the least anyway.

On to the last question, which I tend to find a very important one. We're talking about a team of units, and therefore also go with the supports that benefit the team the most, not the individual units. If making Mist durable enough to be a good healer and combatant at the same time, and it requires her to "shove" Ilyana out of the way when it comes to supports, then it's done for the sake of benefitting the team as much as possible, and if A Mist/B Ilyana is more beneficial than B Ilyana/A Mist - no matter whether it's fair/unfair or whatever you want to call it - then the former is the preferred way to go.

It's a way to keep her offence up, by weakening others. Using a forge is a negative for any unit - Mist included. It's one of the few reasons why Kieran was moved above Oscar.

Volke does something even worse. He fights. Yes, having Volke fight even the slightest bit is far more of a negative than Mist depriving other units of a few forge uses.

Now to quote myself.

Now look at what Volke has for durability: 25 hp/7 def. Enemies average ~17 atk, meaning Volke gets 3HKOed on average. Enemies also average ~87 hit. With Volke's 33 avo, this means enemies average 54 displayed hit against Volke, or ~58% true hit. Volke's chance to die in just three hits is already ~20%. That's rather terrible. Now look at some other characters you have.

Boyd has 37 hp/7 def. Then he actually has 8 def against 71% of the enemies (and therefore also gets +10 avo against 71% of the enemies). Then he has 6 def against ~10% of the enemies (and therefore also receives a 10 avo penalty against ~10% of the enemies. Or you could add/substract those from the enemies' atk and hit values for easier calculation. This means enemies, on average, have 16 atk against Boyd, accompanied with 86 displayed hit. Boyd features 27 avo, so he faces an average of 59 displayed hit (or 67% true hit). He gets 5HKOed on average. His chance to die in those 5 hits is 13-14%. If he didn't get 37 hp by now, he still faces only a ~20% chance to die in four hits. Volke's chance to die is much, much larger. And here we're talking about a unit who's considered a less durable unit.

Now take Oscar with his 31 hp/11 def/30 avo. He gets 6HKOed on average with slightly higher hit rates than Volke. So Volke gets owned hard there. He's at least twice as bad as Oscar is durability-wise.

Soren with C Ike has 21 hp/3 def/34 avo. He gets 2HKOed on average, but faces slightly lower hit rates and has 1-2 range to prevent taking counters from the vast majority of enemies (only the javelin!knights and short spear!halberdier are able to counter him, and those are located near the escape tiles. Point being, Volke's durability is somewhat comparable to Soren's. lolol much?

Offensively, not counting the mage, I see enemies with an average of 28 hp/10 def. Considering Volke doubles everything (except for the lvl 11 myrmidon, but w/ever), that means he's 4RKOing on average. That's quite terrible. Look at Boyd, with his 20/23 atk on average, plus 1 atk against 71% of the enemies. On average, Boyd is 3HKOing with iron and 2HKOing with steel, assuming he doubles nothing at all, and obviously he's also doubling things, so those numbers can only get more to his advantage.

Obviously we're talking about a great offensive unit here, so let's look at some worse combatants. Rolf, for example, has 14 atk/7 spd if he gained two levels from ch 9 + some BEXP. That means that, so long as he doubles, his offense is equal to Volke's. Talk about pathetic. And Rolf doubles 8/21 enemies, so they have equal offense against quite a lot of enemies (both deal 0 damage against the knights, by the way, which is obviously a horrible thing).

Using Rolf as an example was mainly supposed to be a joke, but it did actually illustrate how horrible Volke's offense can be. Oscar has 17/20 atk with iron and steel, which means he's 4HKOing with iron and 3HKOing with steel. Again, that's assuming he doubles nothing, but he definitely does double. Especially if he has gained another level, or if he gained an extra point of spd without getting an extra level up (38% chance).

Now look at, say, Ilyana, who's considered a rather iffy combatant throughout the entire game. With thunder, she has 14 atk and 9 spd. Counting thee mage and halberdier, enemies average ~4 res. This means Ilyana is 3HKOing when she doesn't double. However, 9 spd is enough to double 10 enemies in this chapter, which is nearly half the enemies. This only makes this better for Ilyana.

So Volke's offense is rather crap as well, even compared to some of the worse fighters you have.

Now look at, say, Ch13.

I see 21 enemies that can 3HKO Volke. That's over half the enemies. That's assuming a Volke with 27 hp/8 def (so lvl 13) by the way, which doesn't seem entirely unreasonable to me, due to his crap combat in previous chapters.

He boasts 38 avo. Pretty nice, no? Considering the lowest hit I can find is 83 (not counting the hammer!fighter), he faces 45 hit at least. Aside of that, I see one 85 hit enemy, and all others have quite a lot more than that (all over 90 or even over 100 hit), so Volke is generally facing pretty high hit rates. If he would face 60 true hit on average, for example, he would have a ~22% chance of being killed in three hits, and a ~13% chance to get killed in four. That's rather bad. And that's when I consider a way too low true hit value. I mean. Let's say 95 hit is average for this chapter. That means he's facing true hit rates of ~63% already, and I wouldn't surprised if the average hit in this chapter is even higher than 95.

Offensively, he has a massive 15-16 atk (50/50 chance of having 13 or 14 str). Enemies average ~28 hp. That means that, for Volke to 2RKO everything when he has 16 atk, enemies need to have at most 9 def. If he has 15 atk, that's 8 def. I see an average of 8 def. Congrats. Volke is 2RKOing on average. Now look at what's enough to pull off a ORKO on a double. 22 atk is enough to pull of a ORKO. Oscar has it. Boyd has it. Kieran has it. Ike has it. Marcia might have it. Etc. So relatively, it still isn't all that great.

You get the jist.

Point is, it's likely broken by chapter 21 with said 4 rounds of combat per chapter. So even with your logic that it's not used all the time, it's still likely to have broken.

How does that even remotely have anything to do with Mist having 25 shots where she's >>>> Volke?

Mist actually has 8 mov.

Yay for minor nitpicking. The point is that Mist has a large mobility advantage, not whether she has one or two more points of movement.

Volke can be moved around quicker and easier thanks to being rescued, Mist can't be rescued. Advantage Volke.

Say what? Mist doesn't need to be rescued to be able to move around quickly and easily. Not to mention rescuing deprives other units of their ability to attack or move as far as they could have if they wouldn't have had to rescue Volke.

With a multitude of enemies, he will at least be attacked once or twice.

Define "a multitude" - aka what amount of enemies that could attack Volke at once do you see as "a multitude".

I looked up paramount in dictionary.com and it came up with:

chief in importance or impact; supreme; preeminent: a point of paramount significance.

Aka: necessary/very important. Neither of whcih is Mist's healing.

Hey, I looked up the adjective paramount, and it said "having superior power and influence". Or rather, that's my definition of it, and this agrees.

Superiority is not the equivalent of vitality. In fact, it's exactly what Red Fox said.

A thief never is? Jesus, how you underrate thieving utility, i have no idea why Sothe is in high tier in your list if you have an attitude like that. Thieving also heals your team indirectly through the collection of items such as physic staves, mend staves and heal staves and elixers. Theiving also helps your combat through the collection of high level tomes, seige tomes and superier 1-2 range weapons and money for forges. It also helps boost your team in other ways, much liek a support, but better, through the collection of stat-boosters like an energy drop, speedwing and dracoshield. Heck, even the boots to help your sages/Rhys heal, or Brom/Gatrie to keep with the team. Or how about Volke to get to items quicker? Volek can get these, Mist can't (or at least Volke is better at getting them).

1) Those healing items aren't necessary for your healers in order to be efficient healers.

2) The vast majority of those high level weapons are redundant, too.

3) Stat boosters are often obtained either by visiting a house - which everyone can do - or opening a chest - which everyone can do.

Before you start spouting "zomg it saves money" let me remind you of the ~140k funds you have, which is more than enough.

When buying one for Neph/Oscar/Brom/Marcia/Jill, that's up to 2500g blown on these weapons. I really think that's pushing it, really.

2.5k, huh? I don't know, but that really isn't too much when you look at the fact that those javelins last pretty long due to them only being used when doubled range is required. Especially considering we're talking about Jill being on our team already, it's safe to assume we've obtained that 20k already...

Yeah, not an issue at all.

I never have. He's always attacked me with his bow. Always. Forever and ever.

Opposite here. Not that it matters, for we can go on and on about whether you steal a Laguzslayer or an Iron Bow, but that doesn't quite get us anywhere.

Jill and Titania don't care as much as you want them to. And many of the enemies you gave out made it fine for Mordy to ORKO with just an Ilyana and Stefan support. All of these are easily replaceable. You got to stop overrating this support thing.

Stop making such accusations when you yourself are also misjudging quite a few things.

Now, let me point you to my large thing in the first point.

It's easy just to have soren walk on foot too, thanks to laguz-effective weapons, defeating Muarim with these two isn't hard. Which leaves Marcia to help Volke collect the boots, white gem, physic and maybe the silver blade.

Don't forget we have only seven turns. Then consider Marcia also needs to travel to these items, and that Volke can't move after being dropped, and this is much more of a hassle than you claim it to be.

Most of the exp he needs can be collected through bexp and theiving alone, and the rest can be done with cexp. However, him fighting speeds things up. Mist doesn't fight or speeds things up because of it. Advantage Volke.

Sorry, but why is it an advantage that Volke can speed up his levelling by fighting? There's no advantage in that. It means he can grow a little faster, but that's not an advantage.

Good thing he has shade.

I smell a double standard.

With a multitude of enemies, he will at least be attacked once or twice.

And now it's a good thing he has Shade so he doesn't get attacked? Right. If he gets attacked once or twice, and this goes on for just two enemy phases, chances are Volke is dead. And that'd be a pity.

Yes, much better than Volke, who kills them just as fast, oh wait, Mist can't even fight mages at this point. Even when she can, Volke get 3HKO'ed by them at like, ~50 displayed, so it's all good, especially factoring in shade.

How is a 12.5% chance of death in three attacks "all good" before Shade?

Oh yeah, Mist doesn't need Shade to have good durability against those mages. You can deem it whatever you want, but Mist has the upper hand here. You can't pretend the lead to be non-existent just because Volke has a "decent" chance of surviving.

Perhaps not, but giving him 771 bexp (10% of what we have so far) which is almost enougth to get him to level 17. He can easily get this extra bit from thieving and a little more, leaving him just ~3 levels of combat exp, which can be obtained by effcient combat play (as in, teaming up to kill)

It's the only way Volke can obtain kills. Fail.

Besides, Volek nets you plenty of them, as you seem to be in agreement with if you're starting to devalue them because of it.

What did you say? Devalue them? Because of what? I honestly have no idea what you said.

When I conceded that Mist gets an advantage from supports i did, however, I'm merely emphasising that a support bonus is not a massive win for anyone.

"A support bonus" is way too much of a generalisation. Some support bonuses matter a lot, some are just nice assets. In Mist's case, she provides incredible bonuses that can definitely make a difference, but Red Fox has already proven that.

1) Volke is best at getting the statue frag and white gem.

The White Gem? May be, but that brings me back to the travelling issue I mentioned earlier, since it's all the way in the upper right corner. As for the Statue Frag, who cares?

2) Ranged weapons exits, and the likes of, say, Boyd would love the secret books to increase his hit with hand axes. Makalov would also like some secret books to help him hit as his hit isn't 100% reliable.

Base level Boyd with a Hand Axe in Ch4 even has fairly reliable hit.

lvl 5 Boyd (hand axe): 72 hit

Then there are plenty enemies with lances. Against all those lance guys (which average ~4 avo), he averages 78 displayed hit, or ~91% true hit. That's 13/21 generic enemies, too. Against the fighter, he has ~83% hit. Against the archers he averages ~74% hit. The only enemies he really has low hit against are the myrmidons, of which there are... 2.

So he doesn't really have too much trouble hitting. Then, once he gets supports, he gains hit from supports, his hit grows much faster than the enemies' avo (135% hit growth is pretty decent), etc.

Do you mean Makalov's Hit with a ranged weapon, or Makalov's Hit in general? For I don't recall Makalov having any hitting problems.

3) Torches are used in chapter 14 and 5, so i think they're quite useful.

Who cares? One Torch use is only worth 100g anyway, and it's not like Red Fox mentioned they were useless, either. It's quite an irrelevant point you're making here.

4) -Tt helps stop AS losses from heavy weapons such as steel axes and lances (Good for Jill/Marcia/Nephenee/Kieran).

Again, irrelevant. We don't care whether you think -Wt is superfluous or not, we care about whether Volke is superior to Mist or not.

If they want to fight more, surely they'd want to just run forward and self-heal near enemies rather than run back to be healed?

And chest keys are in short supply anyway.

Nice thing is, they don't need to run back to be healed, for Mist with her large movement can easily reach frontliners, heal them, and go back a space or two in case it's necessary.

Also, I count nine Chest Keys in the entire game, which totals up to 18 chests that can be opened without a thief's services. That's quite a lot. Not to mention only ~60% of the items Volke can net you from chests - about 35 items - is actually useful. Half of those items can be obtained through chest keys, which means Volke is only responsible for 50% of the useful items... Assuming Sothe isn't played, of course. In that case, it would drop even lower, to like 30% or something.

not really, I fail to see anyone with <20 HP lategame. They want to use elixers. The more the merrier. Again, they don't want to wait around for a healer - it's faster and more efficient to run into battle.

If there's no one who ends up with less than 20 HP lategame, then why would they need Elixirs? They don't die either way, right? According to you, at least.

Though, I do agree Elixirs are more useful than Vulneraries lategame. But Volke only gets us like three of them, so I don't really care, to be honest.

He'll survive an attack, teh only way the def truly comes in necessary is if you throw him amongst a group of enemies.

Well, whaddaya know? Perfect distraction in case one, maybe two of your units are in danger of dying in just two attacks and Mordecai can distract the enemy into attacking him while untransformed. Sounds like he can really use that Def.

Except you've never really countered the idea that Volke provides bonsues too: through the help of stat-boosters. +2 Def 100% of the time > + 2 def 80 % of the time.

Then I'll do so.

How about that one Dracoshield all of your units can possibly obtain which is a definite +2 Def to someone? Heck, even Mist could get that Dracoshield. I'm talking about the one obtained in Ch16, by the way.

Not to mention the following - Mist provides two units with great bonuses. Volke provides one unit with a lesser bonus than the ones she provides through supporting. Using the support combinations Red Fox gave a while ago - and adding a few (though just A/B combinations, not A/C/C or something) - consider the following bonuses.

Total Bonuses
A Boyd/B Jill        - +4 Atk, +4 Def, +7 Hit,  +5 Avo
A Boyd/B Mordecai    - +5 Atk, +4 Def, +7 Hit
A Boyd/B Titania     - +4 Atk, +4 Def, +15 Hit
A Jill/B Boyd        - +3 Atk, +4 Def, +5 Hit,  +7 Avo
A Jill/B Mordecai    - +3 Atk, +5 Def,          +7 Avo
A Jill/B Titania     - +2 Atk, +5 Def, +5 Hit,  +7 Avo
A Mordecai/B Boyd    - +5 Atk, +4 Def, +5 Hit
A Mordecai/B Jill    - +4 Atk, +5 Def,          +5 Avo
A Mordecai/B Titania - +4 Atk, +5 Def, +5 Hit
A Titania/B Boyd     - +3 Atk, +4 Def, +15 Hit
A Titania/B Jill     - +2 Atk, +5 Def, +7 Hit,  +5 Avo
A Titania/B Mordecai - +3 Atk, +5 Def, +7 Hit

What are those numbers saying? That Mist provides an average of 3.5 Atk, 4.5 Def, 6.5 Hit and 3 Avo. I fail to see how that's greater than a 2 Def provision. Volke is way out of Mist's league when it comes to the provision of improved battle parameters.

1) Opening doors faster is anotehr reason why Volke > Mist, as we don't want units spending 2-3 turns trying to break doors.

Granted. Though it didn't seem like it was a serious remark to me. Seemed more of a comment like "doing something useless is just as useful as doing something as good as useless" if you get what I mean.

2) A priest can heal an ally and possibly turn 2RKO's into 3RKO's after healing said enemy after the enemy attacked. BY stealing the stave from said enemy or killing said enemy in this case, Volek stops this from happening. Aka positive utility.

It's positive utility when no other units can do it. And everyone can do it.

Relativity.

[Zkirsche]

We should rename this thread as "Mist vs Volke. The great debate." Seriously, we have ~6 pages of this.

Anything I didn't counter is because I conceded it.

Oscar has 17/20 atk with iron and steel, which means he's 4HKOing with iron and 3HKOing with steel.

As in, he's not ORKO'ing so teaming up for a kill is perfectly fine and doable with him. Considering thier so close, I'll assume the same thing occurs with Kieran.

This means Ilyana is 3HKOing when she doesn't double.

Ilyana too... interesting.

Look, just because Volke has below average combat doesn't mean that he can't find a use for it. By teaming up for a kill, he speeds the killing of enemies much faster, which is a positive. I've had enougth of repeating this.

Oscar has it. Boyd has it. Kieran has it. Ike has it. Marcia might have it. Etc.

I concede about the first three.

Ike needs a forge and to be level 15 to have it, or level 18 and no forge. The former is plausable, though. Same with a level 10 Marcia. However, Nephenee with a forge can't do it (not at level 10, anyways), Level 10 Brom has 22 Atk, with the forge but only 7.5 AS. So the same applies to him and Gatrie. Plus, there are a few stronger enemies that 22 Atk doesn't ORKO (Like the soldiers and halbs), so now Ike/Marcia/Jill could use the help of Volke to kill an enemy via teaming up. I'm sure there are more units (Like, say, Astrid) but I can't be bothered to look into it futher.

Yay for minor nitpicking. The point is that Mist has a large mobility advantage

1 point of mov isn't a large mobility advantage.

Say what? Mist doesn't need to be rescued to be able to move around quickly and easily. Not to mention rescuing deprives other units of their ability to attack or move as far as they could have if they wouldn't have had to rescue Volke.

They don't have to rescue Volke, they can rescue Volke, and it you want unit to be more easily transported in a chapter like chapter 17 or 21 then yeah, ferrying is useful and Mist can't do it.

Define "a multitude" - aka what amount of enemies that could attack Volke at once do you see as "a multitude".

Since enemies come in groups of 3 or 4, 3 or 4.

Superiority is not the equivalent of vitality. In fact, it's exactly what Red Fox said.

Whatever, i still disagree, as lategame units are largely fine durably.

1) Those healing items aren't necessary for your healers in order to be efficient healers.

2) The vast majority of those high level weapons are redundant, too.

3) Stat boosters are often obtained either by visiting a house - which everyone can do - or opening a chest - which everyone can do.

Before you start spouting "zomg it saves money" let me remind you of the ~140k funds you have, which is more than enough.

1) It makes them much, much better though. It stops having to have people run back to get healed, they can just run forward and still get healed thanks to the physics/elixers.

2) How? It saves us money on expensive forges, because 100000 gold can easily be wasted on those forges throughout the game, and their not the only items we want to buy. Not only that, but you don't get said 140k funds all in one go. It's very easy to be poor pre-chapter 19 as you can waste ~45000 gold on forges (using my previous method to estimate) Where on earth does the ~30000 gold come from (adding in the cost of regular weaponry, it could easily be more)?

3) Not everyone can open a chest. They need a key for that and a player phase. The latter i'm sure they don't wish to waste as that's only hurting their combat utility (unlike with the healing thing, which also hurts their combat utility to wait around for a healer). The former is in short supply in, say, chapter 13, where you might have 0 chest key uses at all (depending on whether you played it stealth in chapter 10 like you should do). Even in chapter 16, you only have 2 uses of a chest key and said chest key is far and away from the other chests.

Don't forget we have only seven turns. Then consider Marcia also needs to travel to these items, and that Volke can't move after being dropped, and this is much more of a hassle than you claim it to be.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/desert.htm

http://www.fireemblemwod.net/fe9/guia/cap15.htm

The bottom right hand starting position is ~9 squares from the left, meaning the top right hand square is ~13 squares from the left and the 5th one up. Have Volke on the top righthand corner unit slot. Shove him with a scrub unit (Lethe, maybe?) and have him move 3 sqaures to the right, 4 squares up. Physic down. Have Marcia positioned on the top left unit slot, rescue Volke on his left side then move 2 squares up. By having Jill on the position square just below where Marcia started, she can pick up Volke and drop him off to her north. Have Soren come up the rear. Allow Mordy/Lethe to move slowly towards where Stefan is rescuited. Oh yeah, make sure Jill doesn't have anything equipped so that enemies attack her. And have Gatrie/Brom run to the left with no weapons equipped.

In turn 2, Move Volke 3 squares up, 2 squares right (more depending on the obstacles around there.) (use a vulnerary if he got attacked) (boots down) and have Jill follow him to pick him up and having her move as close to her starting position as possible. Then have Marcia collect Volke, drop him 1 square below her and have her move away 1 square left. Oh yeah, and have Soren catch up a bit and Lethe/Mordy continue on their journey.

Once turn 3 comes along move Volke 6 squares left, 1 square down (use a vulnerary if he got attacked) and he gets you Shine. Have Jill rescue him then have her use a vulnerary where she stands if she got attacked (if she can) and have Marcia position herself where Volke was, and get and drop Volke 1 square below her.

On turn 4, have Volke run 2 squares down, 5 squares left to have him collect the silver blade, and the next turn to collect the guard by having him move straight down the next turn. Use Gatrie/Brom to clear these paths of any enemies. Whilst Marcia/Jill/Soren go upwards to kill Muarim on turn 5.

So... I collected the Silver blade, guard, a physic, shine and the boots all with 2 turns to spare as a margin of error. So yeah... that's done.

Sorry, but why is it an advantage that Volke can speed up his levelling by fighting? There's no advantage in that. It means he can grow a little faster, but that's not an advantage.

No, he can help speed up chapters through fighting.

And now it's a good thing he has Shade so he doesn't get attacked? Right. If he gets attacked once or twice, and this goes on for just two enemy phases, chances are Volke is dead. And that'd be a pity.

Or he can use a vulnerary and heal himself. Shade stops him from facing too many enemies in one go, but still allows him to get some combat in.

It's the only way Volke can obtain kills. Fail.

Not as fail when some otehrs aren't ORKO'ing either, so teaming up makes things go faster.

What did you say? Devalue them? Because of what? I honestly have no idea what you said.

RFoF said that the value of stealing physics doesn't matter as much anymore because we have plenty of them, meaning that there's little advantage in saving their uses so the other healers are arguably just as good as Mist is.

Again, irrelevant. We don't care whether you think -Wt is superfluous or not, we care about whether Volke is superior to Mist or not.

Did you even read what that was in response too? RFoF said that we wouldn't waste all our money on forges unless we waste money on superfluous things like -wt, and I showed that it's useful.

The White Gem? May be, but that brings me back to the travelling issue I mentioned earlier, since it's all the way in the upper right corner. As for the Statue Frag, who cares?

RFoF does, she was using it as an argument to devalue the gold collected by Volke's stealing.

Do you mean Makalov's Hit with a ranged weapon, or Makalov's Hit in general? For I don't recall Makalov having any hitting problems.

The latter, a 20/1 Makalov only has 104 hit before supports with a steel axe. With a hand axe this is 94 hit before supports. ~99 with supports. This can at least be helped.

Also, I count nine Chest Keys in the entire game, which totals up to 18 chests that can be opened without a thief's services. That's quite a lot. Not to mention only ~60% of the items Volke can net you from chests - about 35 items - is actually useful. Half of those items can be obtained through chest keys, which means Volke is only responsible for 50% of the useful items... Assuming Sothe isn't played, of course. In that case, it would drop even lower, to like 30% or something.

9? where? I count 5 (excluding ch10's as we play stealth for efficiency, one in ch8 doesn't exist in HM (according to the enemy stats)). Heck, according to enemy stats, the chest keys in chapter 22 don't appear until post turn 6 (if at all) so depending on how fast we are, this number could be 3, aka 6 items.

So much, much more than 50% actually, unless Sothe is played, then it is ~50% of the items, but that's still very good.

What are those numbers saying? That Mist provides an average of 3.5 Atk, 4.5 Def, 6.5 Hit and 3 Avo. I fail to see how that's greater than a 2 Def provision. Volke is way out of Mist's league when it comes to the provision of improved battle parameters.

Then there's the energy drop for +2 atk, a peedwing for + 2 Spd (which mist doesn't give anyone), +2 hit/avo from the ashera icon and +2 mov from boots. Considering all these provisions are definite and works 100% of the time, are not limited to certain characters so are impossible to have superfluous bonuses (read: giving Jill a durability bonuses lategame), don't limit where units go, can't be replaced by a support (aka, other support pairings can also help units, perhaps not as much, but definitely shrink the gap. +2 mov cannot be replaced by any support) and don't even have to be used (yay at getting 4000 gold).

In otherwords, they're much better.

It's positive utility when no other units can do it. And everyone can do it.

Relativity.

Wrong. If I can save other units from wasting thier time focusing on priests, then that's good, and that's exactly what Volke can do. But it's not what Mist can do. Advantage, Volke.

Edited September 2, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

ferrying is useful and Mist can't do it.

I have to assume that's some sort of typo.

And in any case, it's not an advantage for Volke. I don't know if you missed what Tino said, but ferrying Volke requires using 1 or 2 other units that could be doing better things, and if it's one, leaves someone weak on the enemy phase. And he can't move after being dropped. Mist doesn't need ferrying. Advantage Mist.

And since now it seems crappy combat > no combat (Since it was shown that everyone who can fight is better than Volke at it, and Volke's combat is apparently positive utility), Rolf and Mia need to go up. A lot. Like, Rolf to Lower Mid and Mia to Mid, at worst. They have an availability advantage against a lot of people, and I can't believe they'd be much worse, if at all, when those people join.

[Zkirsche]

And in any case, it's not an advantage for Volke. I don't know if you missed what Tino said, but ferrying Volke requires using 1 or 2 other units that could be doing better things, and if it's one, leaves someone weak on the enemy phase. And he can't move after being dropped. Mist doesn't need ferrying. Advantage Mist.

Volke doesn't need to be ferried, he just has that option. Mist can't be ferried, so lacks that option and all the advantages that come with it.

And since now it seems crappy combat > no combat (Since it was shown that everyone who can fight is better than Volke at it, and Volke's combat is apparently positive utility), Rolf and Mia need to go up. A lot. Like, Rolf to Lower Mid and Mia to Mid, at worst. They have an availability advantage against a lot of people, and I can't believe they'd be much worse, if at all, when those people join.

Unlike Volke, however, these two lack any other sort of utility that can keep them on the field.

Bad combat alone =/= positive utility.

Bad combat + theiving/healing utility = positive utility.

But admittedly, them two rising probably isn't hard to do, and Rofl to Low (perhaps abvoe Ulki) seems reasonable and perhaps Mia into lower mid, though I don't really remember how well Mia is getting on anymore. I'll check on it later.

Edited September 2, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

So, in that case, Volke will only be deployed when thieving is necessary, because otherwise he's a negative. This means I have no need to bring him in the following maps:

11

12

14

17-1

17-3

17-4

19

20

24

26

28

F

I gave him some leeway on that, since any chapter with Chests he can easily be replaced by Sothe and some maps are only for stealing a few things. But now, Mist has a sizable availability lead on him.

[Colonel M]

And in any case, it's not an advantage for Volke. I don't know if you missed what Tino said, but ferrying Volke requires using 1 or 2 other units that could be doing better things, and if it's one, leaves someone weak on the enemy phase. And he can't move after being dropped. Mist doesn't need ferrying. Advantage Mist.

Well, after promotion.

And since now it seems crappy combat > no combat (Since it was shown that everyone who can fight is better than Volke at it, and Volke's combat is apparently positive utility), Rolf and Mia need to go up. A lot. Like, Rolf to Lower Mid and Mia to Mid, at worst. They have an availability advantage against a lot of people, and I can't believe they'd be much worse, if at all, when those people join.

Like Mist, Volke still has utility going for him. Mia and Rofl lack any utility whatsoever...

This isn't say that a bar is permenantly set on them. Rolf's only real rigid place is his start and penalizing him as a Sniper.

Whatever, i still disagree, as lategame units are largely fine durably.

Not always true. It's reliant more on their Avoid ratios. There are still instances where you're taking damage and you're not a General | Sol | Aether user. Healing also allows more scenarios where we aren't as reliant on the support partners as much, extending flexibility.

I'm just nitpicking about. Mist > Volke I still agree on.

Edited September 2, 2009 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

Then there's the energy drop for +2 atk, a peedwing for + 2 Spd (which mist doesn't give anyone), +2 hit/avo from the ashera icon and +2 mov from boots. Considering all these provisions are definite and works 100% of the time, are not limited to certain characters so are impossible to have superfluous bonuses (read: giving Jill a durability bonuses lategame), don't limit where units go, can't be replaced by a support (aka, other support pairings can also help units, perhaps not as much, but definitely shrink the gap. +2 mov cannot be replaced by any support) and don't even have to be used (yay at getting 4000 gold).

In otherwords, they're much better.

The problem with those stat ups is that none of them are exclusive to Volke. Even if you throw out Sothe. But then Sothe does exist (and is being severely underrated*). Mist's supports, however, are exclusive to Mist.

*

"We can only replace Volke with Sothe (who is inferior), Mist we can replace with Rhys/Ilyana/Soren/Tormod/Elincia." Those others are inferior to Mist too, dude. In fact, I would say that the difference between them and Mist matters more than the difference between Sothe and Volke. Volke's advantages are combat, durability, and stealing of hard-to-steal items. As Red Fox pointed out, the most efficient way to use Volke (and Sothe) is to not field him on maps where there are no chests. And that's because Volke's combat, while better than Sothe's, is still too bad to be worthwhile. Durability is cool. It can help a bit every now and then, but Sothe almost never needs durability anyway.

The difference between Sothe and Volke only really matters if you're trying to use him as a fighter or if you're trying to steal items that are hard to steal. I don't remember what all those are, but I don't remember them being worth the trouble.

Also, "We can only replace Volke with Sothe" isn't true. You could replace him with chest keys. You lose out on some things, yes, but by much less than you lose out on by replacing Mist with vulneraries.

[-Cynthia-]

We can also replace Mist with Elixirs later on. Plus, if a character doesn't need healing, Mist's healing isn't very useful. Mist and all the other healers would be higher if PoR were a harder game but past most of the early stages everyone has such high durability that healing isn't terribly useful.

Mist isn't superior to the other healers in all ways. Soren and Ilyana will often have superior combat to Mist, since ORKOing at 1-2 range is often better than Mist 2RKOing at 1 range. Plus, once Physics come into play Mist's higher healing range matters less, which is the only advantage outside supports and Canti she had going in, since she's often inferior offensively and similar durably. I will agree that Mist is the best healer, but her wins are a lot less objective than Volke's wins over Sothe.

Edited September 2, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Florete]

We can also replace Mist with Elixirs later on. Plus, if a character doesn't need healing, Mist's healing isn't very useful.

If nothing requires stealing, which is more often the case, Volke isn't useful at all. Your point?

And Elixirs arent buyable until the final chapter, btw. Getting healed >>>> self-healing.

Mist and all the other healers would be higher if PoR were a harder game but past most of the early stages everyone has such high durability that healing isn't terribly useful.

No, healing is always useful. Just because our units our more durable does not mean they never run into problems. Enemies like Tigers and Dragons generally hit pretty hard, and our fliers can be nailed by Bows and Wind magic and ballistae. Reyson could accidentally take a hit, or our second healer if we have one could take a hit. There's a always a use for healing as long as units are taking damage. You can't say the same for Thieving.

Mist isn't superior to the other healers in all ways. Soren and Ilyana will often have superior combat to Mist, since ORKOing at 1-2 range is often better than Mist 2RKOing at 1 range.

No, not at all. Well, it would be, if Mist didn't have such a large durability lead on them. Mist can expose herself to more enemies, and can safely do it on the enemy phase as well, and generally give a greater damage output per turn while also healing, which is more than Soren or Ilyana can say.

Plus, once Physics come into play Mist's higher healing range matters less, which is the only advantage outside supports and Canti she had going in, since she's often inferior offensively and similar durably.

This is true, but Physics aren't infinite, they only have 15 uses, and since 25 uses for Mist's Sonic Sword is apparently terrible, I can't see this being a massive point against her. And besides, 8 + 9 > 6 + 8. (She still has greater range)

I will agree that Mist is the best healer, but her wins are a lot less objective than Volke's wins over Sothe.

I disagree. Really, what wins does Volke have over Sothe aside from availability? Durability, but his is still bad. Offense, but his still sucks. And neither of these even matter for thieving anyway. So then Str and Spd to help him steal items, but I can't imagine there are any game breaking items he can steal that Sothe can't. And then there's Sothe's supports, which is an advantage he has over Volke.

I don't see how a tier difference between the two is justified, actually. Sothe could actually be better if the combat portion were thrown out of the equation. I'm not going to argue for that, but I can't see them a full tier apart.

[uzy5o]

According to the SF page, we get a grand total of three elixirs before they're buyable: one from a drop and two people who come with them. There's no way elixirs can replace a healer.

Also, I think healing is really underrated. Just because the game is easy doesn't mean you can get by without healing. If a PC is 10RKOed by enemies, that might seem ridiculously durable, but if a map is 10 turns long, that unit can only afford to take one hit per turn without getting healed. Even if individual enemies are easy, your units are much more suscpetible to getting worn down in attrition without a healer.

[Reikken]

Indeed, we don't need healing most of the time. However, we don't need thieving any of the time. Just throw out Oscar, Ike, and Kieran all with earth supports and Sol/Aether, and we don't need anything either Volke or Mist has to offer. Well, until someone gets Sleep'd, in which case we need Mist to use a Restore staff, or until you start facing dragons and the like. Oh and earlygame. We'll need some healing before they promote.

[Zkirsche]

So, in that case, Volke will only be deployed when thieving is necessary, because otherwise he's a negative. This means I have no need to bring him in the following maps.

Hmm, that doesn't seem right.

Fine, let Mia and Rofl rise. I must admit, having an availability advantage is very useful for them compared to lower tiers.

Also, I think healing is really underrated. Just because the game is easy doesn't mean you can get by without healing. If a PC is 10RKOed by enemies, that might seem ridiculously durable, but if a map is 10 turns long, that unit can only afford to take one hit per turn without getting healed. Even if individual enemies are easy, your units are much more suscpetible to getting worn down in attrition without a healer.

If a unit is =<~10HKO'ed then a vulnerary will suffice. Heck, it may even suffice with just a ~7RKO with/without avo considered.

I mean, endgame, stuff like that isn't even unlikely. Vykan's showed very well multiple points that undermine lategame healing which I think should be highlighted:

Astrid lv 20/15 (A Makalov, silver axe): 40 hp, 37 atk, 143 hit, 27 AS, 19 def, 17 res, 85 avo

Zihark lv 20/8 (A Muarim, B Brom, silver sword): 38 hp, 33 atk, 139 hit, 26 AS, 16 def, 7 res, 93 avo

[...]

C26 enemies average 23 atk/93 hit. Thus any unit with 45 hp/20 def/60 avo will be 15RKOed at 22 hit. After 35 rounds, that unit would only face a 0.46% chance of death, and the level only has 50 enemies.

Moreover, 45 hp/20 def/60 avo is usually a pretty big underestimation of a given unit’s durability. For example, a 20/9 Makalov (A Astrid) has 44 hp/21 def/69.5 avo, and his avo could be considerably higher with KW usage. Brom at the same level unsupported has 46 hp/25 def, so the average enemy doesn’t even hurt him. A 20/10 Marcia (A Tanith, seraph robe) has 44 hp/16 def/79 avo, and she’s not even considered a durable unit. As shown earlier, Ike/Zihark/Astrid have avo approaching triple digits, which means many enemies literally cannot hit them (0 display hit).

There’s still more to consider. In numerous cases, a character can avoid a player phase attack by attacking at range, landing a crit, using a brave weapon or finishing off a heavily injured enemy. If we’re talking about paladins, 4/6 of them can have sol, which means roughly a 20% chance to heal per attack. Then it’s very rare for a character to attack every turn, so for the ones where they don’t, they can take a vulnerary or elixir. There’s even the possibility that someone ends adjacent to Reyson, who heals them 10 hp at base level untransformed.

93 avo is a pretty big underestimate for Zihark’s avo in C26. If he’s 20/13 by then, a full support set nets him 100 avo, at which point said tiger only manages 18 hit. The odds of Zihark getting hit thrice in a row is only ~0.58%, and there aren’t even 3 tigers in close proximity to each other at any point in the game.

Against anything else, Zihark is pretty much untouchable. Even a 110 hit enemy only manages 2.1 real, and many enemies have less than that. Moreover, higher hit rates are usually synonymous with lower atk, with laguz being one of the main exceptions. Anyway, my point is, even if Zihark gets gravely wounded by a tiger, he can still self-heal either through an elixir or multiple vulneraries while still being extremely safe on the frontlines.

Why did Tanith only gain 5 levels in 8 chapters? A reasonable amount of BEXP alone would get her there. In addition, Tanith has some freakishly high avo herself. At lv --/17 with A Marcia/B Oscar, she has 101 avo, not to mention 2 high rank weapon types for WTC. The Wyvern Lord you mentioned will only manage 2.53 real, and she could always 1RKO him at range using the sonic sword.

Let’s say Mak gets 5RKOed by an enemy he doubles at 30 hit, and that his sol activation is 22%. Before sol, his odds of dying in 10 rounds are 15%. After sol, it plummets to about 0.1%.

Minor wounds are the most likely outcome for most lategame units after a turn of combat. Let’s say someone faces 4 enemies, each of which has a 25% chance of hitting that someone for 8 damage.

1 enemy hits: 68%

2 enemies hit: 26%

3 enemies hit: 5%

all enemies hit: 0.4%

That comes out to a 94% chance of receiving 8-16 damage, so an elixir or mend would only be required in the other 6% of possible cases.

Moreover, there’s nothing stopping you from using a vulnerary multiple times on the same unit. That’s only unconstructive if said unit is passing up attack opportunities to heal himself.

Largo can at least become an avo tank a few chapters after joining. He’ll have 82 avo at lv --/11 (A Tauroneo/B Muarim). Moreover, he can usually take 3 hits or more due to having such a high hp base and growth (52 and 80%, respectively). Moreover, he’s one of the few characters in the game who can ORKO reliable at 1-2 range, so he’s rarely taking P. phase counters.

I could go on, but I'm sure noone would dream of saying that Kieran/Oscar are having any durability issues.

Long story short: units are very durable lategame meaning vulneraries and elixers are all a team really needs.

Well, until someone gets Sleep'd, in which case we need Mist to use a Restore staff, or until you start facing dragons and the like. Oh and earlygame. We'll need some healing before they promote.

Here we go with the "needing" thing.

A team doesn't need healing, and nor does it need thieving. No team needs Titania. So if we really need Mist that badly, she deserves to be a tier better than Titania, don't you think?

No. "Needing" something or someone doesn't exist in the FE world. Doesn't. ever. exist. You can complete chapters with the worst of the worst if we pile a bunch of experience onto them. You can solo with Ike, heck, I'm not sure if the PoR speedrun made involved much healing, and any done can surely be replaced.

All in all, "necessity" in FE is BS.

Edited September 2, 2009 by kirsche

[Florete]

I think what Reikken means is that healing is more important to the team than Thieving, especially earlier on when our units aren't highly durable.

Oh, and those stats didn't account for everything, like Largo not getting A Muarim/B Tauroneo and low Biorythm for avoid based units. And then of course, I had mentioned Reyson and our other healers, who aren't immune to attacks themselves.

[Colonel M]

Not undermiming it, but getting Reyson attacked is a rarity in the first place. Maybe the healers tops, but Soren doesn't have the worst Avoid (it's bad, but Ike helps it out a bit).