FE4 Gen 2 list

[Eltoshen]

Funny, I recall you being the one bawwing about another weapon use.

Yet that has nothing to do with what you quoted. We were talking about crippling Lakche by transferring her money over. You're the one who suggested that.

Your own "experience" with Aless failed to counter my argument back at page 2 when you could have ended it right there if all you did was use what you learned...and you did not. Unable to counter my post about how Aless is not that durable in C9, you went on and started this whole Ishtar shit. If your goal was misdirection to your own incompetence, congrats, it ALMOST worked. Almost being the operative word.

Something you should remember: dragging me down to your level doesn't make you any better. If anything, it may make you feel less inexperienced due to the company, but that doesn't change anything when it comes to what you were able to comprehend, or rather, were unable to comprehend.

[Dat Nick]

Yet that has nothing to do with what you quoted. We were talking about crippling Lakche by transferring her money over. You're the one who suggested that.

Lakche transfers her money over and THEN she rapes the arena. Problem solved, Lakche is not crippled, she has money to work with.

Something you should remember: dragging me down to your level doesn't make you any better. If anything, it may make you feel less inexperienced due to the company, but that doesn't change anything when it comes to what you were able to comprehend, or rather, were unable to comprehend.

Something you should remember, it was your own incompetence to express your argument that made your point invalid. ALL you had to do was say "No, Ambush is not quite cancelled out by Shanan's massive avo because X.", and we would be on page TWO instead of fucking five.

[Eltoshen]

Lakche transfers her money over and THEN she rapes the arena. Problem solved, Lakche is not crippled, she has money to work with.

Yes, thank you. We're back on topic.

Something you should remember, it was your own incompetence to express your argument that made your point invalid. ALL you had to do was say "No, Ambush is not quite cancelled out by Shanan's massive avo because X.", and we would be on page TWO instead of fucking five.

Haha, you will never get it will you. I can understand if you say I did not express my side clearly enough, but that doesn't change the fact that you were unable to identify the connection with the skills mentioned. Get over it. There's no need to beat a dead bush.

[Dat Nick]

Yes, thank you. We're back on topic.

So you concede that Shanan's extra use is a non issue.

Then why the hell did you complain about it in the first place?

Haha, you will never get it will you. I can understand if you say I did not express my side clearly enough, but that doesn't change the fact that you were unable to identify the connection with the skills mentioned. Get over it. There's no need to beat a dead bush.

You bought up his skills, THEN I bought up his durability. You could have defended said durability, and you chose not to and instead decided it was a better idea to spam the thread with 3 pages of Ishtar shit which borders on irrelevant.

[grandjackal]

Alright, break up the hockey convention here, and let's move on to something else, shall we? Nevermind that there's no reason we shouldn't have the warp staff of which blows Eltoshen's argument to pieces since can just warp Shanan to Manster and have him single handedly march into Conote to kill Ishtar and possibly attempt to fuck Blume's shit up, but whatever. I don't wanna get too deep into it.

Example-Patty{Holyn} should be higher. HP generally makes her just as durable as Lex, and on top of it has rank for Hero Sword. On top of wind sword, this makes her a very flexible though still meh offense unit (+Moonlight Strike), along with making her money scoring abilities actually mean something. Sleep Sword also allows her to cheat in the arena. When she promotes, she's actually a very viable combat unit now that she has pursuit. She's basically a mini-swordmaster.

[Dat Nick]

Example-Patty{Holyn} should be higher. HP generally makes her just as durable as Lex, and on top of it has rank for Hero Sword.

Thats true, but lots of other units want Hero sword.

And no. 10% HP growth doesnt cancel out 30% more def growth and x2 levelling speed.

When she promotes, she's actually a very viable combat unit now that she has pursuit. She's basically a mini-swordmaster.

But Lex gets her to promotion much, much faster.

Oh, and I didn't see the point of having three pairs of the sword twins right next to each other [Noish Holyn Jamka, in that order] so I wiped out the Holyn and Jamka version.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Blademaster!]

... This Ishtar discussion is ridiculous.

Anyway, thoughts on Midir!Lester vs Azel!Arthur? I can see the former above the latter.

I agree with Midir!Lester over Azel!Arthur considering he can Canto after his range attack and has a hero bow passed down to him, even though Wrath is great it's quite risky.

I concur, and the same should apply to Jamka!Lester.

First,

I can somewhat possibly see Midir!Lester, above Azel!Arthur, but definetly not Jamaka!Lester over Azel!Arthur. Jamaka!Lester lacks pursuit, and continue can't activate with a hero weapon. Additionally, Jamaka!Lester gives Lester poor skl so he has trouble hitting things with the Hero Bow. Although you can eventually give Lester the pursuit ring, it would be unwise to do so until Leaf has promoted and by then Azel!Arthur will have promoted too allowing him to use Bolganone(Horay for remove allowing us to change equipment in a game filled with 12wt enemy lance users)/Tron so He'll probably be dealing the same if not more damage than Jamaka!Lester. As for Arthur's movement problem before promotion, I find that passing him the leg ring makes him ALOT better.

Second,

Why is Tinny[Levin] above Tinny[Azel]? Tinny[Levin] essentially just gives her good speed, critical(which is stupid since she already has wrath), and the ability to use Tornado since she gains continue upon promotion anyway. Without pursuit, she is for the most part useless (And god knows that your probably going to give Arthur[Levin] the pursuit ring or he'll have some trouble one rounding enemies in the later chapters[Continue doesn't always activate, same with critical, and enemies are bound to have over 60 hp(The maximum amount of damage Arthur can deal with Holsety) in the later chapters]). Tinny[Azel] gives her pursuit, fair speed, better magic(by 20% and +2 more base magic), and continue upon promotion. Also, enemy mages generally use fire magic, so thunder magic isn't completely useless.

Personally, I find that Tiltyu[Azel] yields greater results than Tiltyu[Levin] when considering BOTH children, so this might be due to some sort of bias I have, but still.....

Thirdly,

I think that Johalva is better tha Johan. Johan is mounted and easier to recruit, but Johavlva has duel (which is nice considering his Hp), better bases, and the ability to use Bows upon promotion allowing him to use the pursuit ring and Hero Bow/Killer Bow if necesary (I generally pass pursuit down to all children that I use in combat so I can give the pursuit ring to him). Also, I believe that Johalva's support units attack before Johan's once he is recruited.

[Dat Nick]

Jamaka!Lester lacks pursuit, and continue can't activate with a hero weapon.

That's right, isn't it? I had forgotten about that. JamkaxAideen kids wiped off the list. [it does nothing for Rana and makes Lester suck so who cares]

Personally, I find that Tiltyu[Azel] yields greater results than Tiltyu[Levin] when considering BOTH children, so this might be due to some sort of bias I have, but still.....

Individual children are considered. This isn't a pairings tier list after all.

Why is Tinny[Levin] above Tinny[Azel]? Tinny[Levin] essentially just gives her good speed, critical(which is stupid since she already has wrath), and the ability to use Tornado since she gains continue upon promotion anyway.

I suppose...

I think that Johalva is better tha Johan. Johan is mounted and easier to recruit, but Johavlva has duel (which is nice considering his Hp), better bases, and the ability to use Bows upon promotion allowing him to use the pursuit ring and Hero Bow/Killer Bow if necesary (I generally pass pursuit down to all children that I use in combat so I can give the pursuit ring to him). Also, I believe that Johalva's support units attack before Johan's once he is recruited.

I despise Duel with a passion, but okay.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I think that Johalva is better tha Johan. Johan is mounted and easier to recruit, but Johavlva has duel (which is nice considering his Hp), better bases, and the ability to use Bows upon promotion allowing him to use the pursuit ring and Hero Bow/Killer Bow if necesary (I generally pass pursuit down to all children that I use in combat so I can give the pursuit ring to him). Also, I believe that Johalva's support units attack before Johan's once he is recruited.

While I do prefer Johalva over Johan, I must disagree with this. It's not too different from the Aless vs Shanan case. More MOV = More combat and Ambush + Brave Axe is better than Duel + Brave Axe since the former helps his durability.

Edited September 26, 2009 by ?!

[Eltoshen]

Alright, break up the hockey convention here, and let's move on to something else, shall we? Nevermind that there's no reason we shouldn't have the warp staff of which blows Eltoshen's argument to pieces since can just warp Shanan to Manster and have him single handedly march into Conote to kill Ishtar and possibly attempt to fuck Blume's shit up, but whatever. I don't wanna get too deep into it.

Actually, it doesn't, since Shanan'll die when Ishtar attacks them and there will be nobody to heal him (hell, Shanan will die before he's able to put a shot in, since he gets OHKO'd). Nice try, though.

And if you seriously believe that the whole "unable to transport Shanan to enemy" was the whole basis of the argument, you obviously can't read. Since you've asked for others to move on, why did you find yourself inclined to comment on it? Sounds hypocritical to me.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Renall]

... This Ishtar discussion is ridiculous.

Anyway, thoughts on Midir!Lester vs Azel!Arthur? I can see the former above the latter.

I agree with Midir!Lester over Azel!Arthur considering he can Canto after his range attack and has a hero bow passed down to him, even though Wrath is great it's quite risky.

Azel!Arthur is going to have, like what, Elfire or something at best? Even in the best case of Bolganone or Wind he's still dealing with low Mt for decent Evade or high Mt with his AS shot to hell and back.

Killer Bow has 14 Mt (6 less than Bolganone) for only 4 Wt (almost as light as Wind), 100 Hit, and Critical. And Lester should get the Hero Bow too (who else would want it from ch6-8, or even use it at all?). There's no way Lester [Jamka]/[Midir] isn't going to have both of those bows, and even one of them would kick Arthur [Azel]'s ass. Plus he's got a horse. I mentioned this before the two-page derail, those two Lesters definitely need to rocket up somewhere. He's a mobile artillery platform, hindered mostly only by the lack of enemy phase, which would put him under units who perform similarly offensively but counterattack.

[Dat Nick]

I wiped out Jamka!Lester entirely because no Pursuit is enough of a problem to not even make the pairing worthwhile.

[Blademaster!]

I think that Johalva is better tha Johan. Johan is mounted and easier to recruit, but Johavlva has duel (which is nice considering his Hp), better bases, and the ability to use Bows upon promotion allowing him to use the pursuit ring and Hero Bow/Killer Bow if necesary (I generally pass pursuit down to all children that I use in combat so I can give the pursuit ring to him). Also, I believe that Johalva's support units attack before Johan's once he is recruited.

While I do prefer Johalva over Johan, I must disagree with this. It's not too different from the Aless vs Shanan case. More MOV = More combat and Ambush + Brave Axe is better than Duel + Brave Axe since the former helps his durability.

But Duel + Brave Bow or Duel + Killer Bow (With Pursuit Ring) is > Ambush + Hero Axe. Statistically, Johan can only be a max of 4 points faster than Johalva (Johan caps speed at 22 and Johalva gets a minimum of 18 speed once promoted). The lightest axe is the hero axe which has a weight of 12. With the Hero Bow, Johalva is at a minimum of being just as fast with the potential to be faster than Johan. Johalva also has higher skl than Johan on average plus the 10% hit bonus the Hero bow has over the hero axe. With the killer bow, Johalva is now an additional 4 points faster (possibly 5, I believe the killer bow is supposed to weigh 3, not 4 as stated on serenes forest) and has 30% more accuracy. With the Killer Bow, he also has about a 35~40% chance on duel activating, more if he is given a speed ring. And Johalva has the def and hp necessary to be an archer. And although saying this probably will probably not change anything, Johalva also has better stats than Johan (On average, he loses by 2 points in spd and str, but wins by 2 points in Hp, 3 points in skl, and 1 point in def, though they will probably both cap def anyway)

... This Ishtar discussion is ridiculous.

Anyway, thoughts on Midir!Lester vs Azel!Arthur? I can see the former above the latter.

I agree with Midir!Lester over Azel!Arthur considering he can Canto after his range attack and has a hero bow passed down to him, even though Wrath is great it's quite risky.

Azel!Arthur is going to have, like what, Elfire or something at best? Even in the best case of Bolganone or Wind he's still dealing with low Mt for decent Evade or high Mt with his AS shot to hell and back.

Killer Bow has 14 Mt (6 less than Bolganone) for only 4 Wt (almost as light as Wind), 100 Hit, and Critical. And Lester should get the Hero Bow too (who else would want it from ch6-8, or even use it at all?). There's no way Lester [Jamka]/[Midir] isn't going to have both of those bows, and even one of them would kick Arthur [Azel]'s ass. Plus he's got a horse. I mentioned this before the two-page derail, those two Lesters definitely need to rocket up somewhere. He's a mobile artillery platform, hindered mostly only by the lack of enemy phase, which would put him under units who perform similarly offensively but counterattack.

Azel!Arthur is fine with wind, switching to Elwind/Bolganone upon promotion. Bolganone weighs as much as a lance, so AS isn't a problem. Once Arthur Promotes, he'll probably one round everything with Bolganone. He's definetly better than Jamaka!Lester. Midir!Lester just comes down to his growth's possibly screwing him over.

As for who could make better use of those bows, Johalva will be ready to promote by chp 8 so he can make better use of either of them, and Leaf can make better use of them too.

I wiped out Jamka!Lester entirely because no Pursuit is enough of a problem to not even make the pairing worthwhile.

He also gets fail skl with Jamaka :(

Edited September 26, 2009 by Blademaster!

[Renall]

Neither Johalva nor Leaf is going to promote until around the time Faval would show up, so it's basically the same thing; Lester has the bows and nobody else is going to be able to use them. And it'd be a waste not to have somebody using them during that time.

Arthur [Azel] turns out a bit better in the end, but he doesn't have a horse until promotion, while Lester always does.

Also, I have to give Johan > Johalva just for the movement. Johalva is probably the statistically superior character with the better secondary option, but he isn't fast enough on the map.

[Kriemhild]

btw I think Aless and Shanan should both be above Levin's kids. Levin!Arthur takes a while to be raised until he becomes strong enough to slay everything. Levin!Sety comes late. Both Shanan and Aless are utilized more than Arthur and Sety. Holsety isn't THAT much more useful than Balmung and Mistoltin.

[Fei Mao]

Another topic to be discussed after the above arguments are done is shouldn't Fee(Levin) be higher than Patty(Holyn) even with Holyn as Patty's father she still needs some favoritism via Hero Sword, while Fee can manage herself without much or any favoritism.

[Kriemhild]

Fee is also very useful since she's the only flier before Altenna. And even after you get Altenna, Fee could be pretty handy.

Also, I agree to Johan > Johalva because being mounted really helps.

[Dat Nick]

I suppose that fee can go above that patty, yeah

also damnit I forgot to put Fin on

Let's peg him...there to start

Edit: wtf Altenna and Leaf too? The massive list of pairings on post 1 must have fucked my head over. Adding them too.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[grandjackal]

I just wanna say that for generation 2, it's far more kind to foot soldiers than generation 1 was. Mounts are still important, but foot soldiers aren't just useless like Gen 1. Examples being chapter 7, when you're having Celice take the northern castle. That takes a while even with the leg ring, due to desert. You could easily have everyone lined up, ready to break through. When you do, the area ahead is basically filed with prick units, a bolting boss, and ballistae. Only person I would rush up there is Holsety Arthur (who isn't necessarily in play due to pairings), and Shanan, who's a tad behind at the moment. Chapter 8, Muhammud's group, or whoever's warped north to Manster. Chapter 9, gotta defend against Trabant's forces while you march towards the dark mage's fortress. Chapter 10, while your horses are marching to the left to capture the castle, your foot soldiers are to be stacked against the north wall to Julius's castle. Only time I can see horses having the pure advantage for gen 2 is chapter 6 and final.

[Fei Mao]

I think Leaf might be too high, when his promotion kicks in yeah he's great, but the thing is dosen't he need some favoritism to be able to hold out on his own via pursuit ring and hero sword?

[Blademaster!]

Neither Johalva nor Leaf is going to promote until around the time Faval would show up, so it's basically the same thing; Lester has the bows and nobody else is going to be able to use them. And it'd be a waste not to have somebody using them during that time.

For the record, Johalva can promote by the end of Chp 7. Based on the comment you made, you said that no one besides Lester could make use of the bows. You didn't mention a specific parameter, just that no one else could make good use of them. For chp 6 and chp 7, obviously Lester is going to be using those Bow's since He'll be the only one who can for those chapters.

I just wanna say that for generation 2, it's far more kind to foot soldiers than generation 1 was. Mounts are still important, but foot soldiers aren't just useless like Gen 1. Examples being chapter 7, when you're having Celice take the northern castle. That takes a while even with the leg ring, due to desert. You could easily have everyone lined up, ready to break through. When you do, the area ahead is basically filed with prick units, a bolting boss, and ballistae. Only person I would rush up there is Holsety Arthur (who isn't necessarily in play due to pairings), and Shanan, who's a tad behind at the moment. Chapter 8, Muhammud's group, or whoever's warped north to Manster. Chapter 9, gotta defend against Trabant's forces while you march towards the dark mage's fortress. Chapter 10, while your horses are marching to the left to capture the castle, your foot soldiers are to be stacked against the north wall to Julius's castle. Only time I can see horses having the pure advantage for gen 2 is chapter 6 and final.

I agree with this. In my opinion, Movement is really only helpful in chp 2 and 5 so that you can recruit Lachesis and get the Tryfing. In addition to what he said above, on chp 6, movement won't be making to much of a difference since you want Lakche/Radney nearby to recruit Johan/Johalva and the chp is filled with move boosting roads. Additionally, the enemies are mounted so it doesn't take them to long to reach you either and once you kill the last group of enemies lead by the hero axe boss (I think his name was Slayder), there are no more enemies for the rest of the chp and you probably going to use Oifaye or Arthur to kill the boss.

And on the final chp, your going to be intercepting that first group of enemies that charges you, and then be moving right back a small distance to the home castle to defend against Burain. Then movement becomes somewhat problmatic to get to freege, and your units will all reach there by the time you are going to conquer the castle (any units you don't have reaching there are going to take care of Scorpio). Then all you have to do is beat Ishtar's army (which reach you in about 1 turn) and the Dark warlords. Then you just have Celice Solo Manfloy (Aless doesn't have enough avoid to dodge Hel, Celice somewhat doesn't either, but more than Aless) and recruit Julia.

Movement isn't that important for the most part. What really makes mounted units good is that they can change equipment during remove and have remove.

[_____]

For the record, Johalva can promote by the end of Chp 7.

How is he going to get 8 levels in 1 chapter when he doesn't even have a mount?

Lex Lackhe/Skasha have trouble getting that many, and they have Elite and aren't ridiculously overleveled and they have great combat parameters.

The only person I could possibly see promoting by the end of Chapter 7 is Celice.

Movement isn't that important for the most part. What really makes mounted units good is that they can change equipment during remove and have remove.

Movement means a lot, too.

Chapter 6

Admittedly linear. However, in order to capture Sophara, you need to backtrack quite a bit, though I guess that's not really necessary.

Chapter 7

Good luck trying to fight Jabarro and his group with your foot units, and yes, Aless needs help. He is not invulnerable. The Dark Mages are pretty close to the starting castle, admittedly, but they aren't in the range of the foot soldiers on the first turn, and foot soldiers can't canto away to avoid another attack from those hard-hitting guys. Seriously, I think everyone on your team is 2RKOed by them. Bastards. Same deal with Tinny's mage group, I guess, though they're a bit more lenient.

Chapter 8

Yes, Muhammud's group is close by. No, that isn't a Get out of Jail Free card. Mounted units can still run up to save the Lenster trio, of which pretty much everyone but Fin has no chance of surviving the Ovo's onslaught, and Fin won't survive even on the castle alone (trust me, I've tried). Then, Patty recruits Faval, we kill Ishtar, etc., etc. I don't need to go into details about how mounted units are obviously going to be the ones helping Sety slaughter everything, and foot units get left in the dust, do I?

Chapter 9

Mounted units can reach the villages, take out the guys surrounding the castle with Corple, actually have a chance of taking on Arion's squad before the chapter ends, etc. This is getting a bit redundant. Trabant and his suicide squads do attack, yeah. Same with Hannibal. Probably one of the better maps for the unmounted guys.

Chapter 10

Hilda (and the children). Ridale. That second castle that I can't remember the name of. The guys attacking Palmark. You should know what I'm talking about by now.

Endgame

Do I even need to talk about this?

Yeah, mounts and movement are useful for a lot more than just switching weapons with Canto.

[Dat Nick]

The only person I could possibly see promoting by the end of Chapter 7 is Celice.

what

Why him and not the sword twins? If we favor him with the leg ring yes, but he's not any more entitled to it than they are just because he can seize faster. Nobody ever gives Hector/Marth/Roy the boots so they can seize faster, so I'm really not cool with assuming shit like the leg ring on Celice.

I think Leaf might be too high, when his promotion kicks in yeah he's great, but the thing is dosen't he need some favoritism to be able to hold out on his own via pursuit ring and hero sword?

Perhaps, but how much favoritism it actually takes to get him there should be considered...I'll admit I'm not too sure on it.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[_____]

what

Why him and not the sword twins? If we favor him with the leg ring yes, but he's not any more entitled to it than they are just because he can seize faster. Nobody ever gives Hector/Marth/Roy the boots so they can seize faster, so I'm really not cool with assuming shit like the leg ring on Celice.

He is the #1 contender for either the Elite Ring or the Leg Ring. Both basically double our efficiency. I don't really see the problem with saying he can have either.

[Renall]

For Leaf? It's a fair bit. No pursuit and he's a foot unit, and unlike Lachesis the Prince class doesn't get staves before promotion. I dunno, that sounds like something that requires some pretty hefty favoritism.

He is the #1 contender for either the Elite Ring or the Leg Ring. Both basically double our efficiency. I don't really see the problem with saying he can have either.

I don't know about the Elite Ring, but certainly Celice is the obvious choice for the Leg Ring for ch6 and 7.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Renall