FE4 Gen 2 list

[Blademaster!]

Are you purposely trying to bullshit this much, or have you never played the game?

Yes Johalva can gain 8 levels by the end of chp 7. Arena abuse is a nessecity in this game because it is the only real way to make money for your characters and it is not as broken as in other games where you can get a character to lvl 20 in one chapter.(And most people already use savestates in FE4 anyway another reason why they say Corple/Leen are stupid compared to Layla/Sharlow). Johalva should be Lvl 14 by the end of chp 6. He'll be about lvl 18 once you beat the arena. He can gain 2 lvls in chp 7. Without elite or the elite ring, Skasher/Lakche can be about Lvl 7. Elite doubles exp right?

This is a tier list. We don't abuse. Get over it.

There is no Arena in Chapter 6, and the only things left to fight in Chapter 6 are the Axe Knights, which he is pretty bad against (lol@notdoublingandnotdodgingever). He'll be lucky to gain 1 level.

Johalva won't be getting past Manstein (the swordfighter) in the Chapter 7 arena even with the Hero Axe, and all of the enemies below him are level 1 or 7. That's another level.

Even if he gains 2 levels in Chapter 7, which I highly doubt, he'll only be 16. Four more levels until he promotes.

Cut the bullshit.

For your reasons on chp 6, Celice isn't mounted and Arthur wants the leg ring, especially if he has Holsety, so it is better to conquer Issac. Plus, Conquering Issac gives Julia Reizire (or however you spell it). Thank you for further Helping me prove Johalva > Johan.

Celice wants the Leg Ring more than Arthur. It should be the other way around.

Speeding up chapters a lot more until Celice promotes and helping Arthur reach promotion quicker is much better than it's opposite.

Also, Isaac will be conquered by Schmidt after you recruit Johan. You can still get Rezire if you recruit Johan, so that was a stupid thing of you to bring up.

For your reasons on chp 7, considering you can only have four mounted units by the time you fight Jabbarro, good luck beating him without your foot units.

Well, if Aless is dead before we can even reach Jabarro, that won't do anyone any good. Wasting time trying to get foot units up there is inefficient.

As for Tinny's mage group, they're aren't really a threat.....

Suddenly, 2RKOing mages. Everywhere. Only guys like Johalva and Johan, ironically, with pretty big HP, are 3RKO'd.

For chp 8, it is stupid to use mounted units to fight Muhammeds squad since that area is surrounded by forest.

So, Mounted units will have the same move as foot units, you say? Gasp! That doesn't help foot units whatsoever. That merely balances things for one small segment.

And then it will take them 2-4 turns to get to lenster depending on where they are. Mounted units go to help lenster, foot units stay to fight Muhammed. You could say "just warp them," but you can warp anyone.

Mounted units have the ability to save Lenster and to fight Muhammud.

Foot units can't do one.

The point goes to mounts.

Also, I think Sety is ignored by the AI if he has Holsety equiped since they can't hit him, though I'm not to sure about this.

Wait a second. You said we were using Levin!Arthur up there. Make up your mind.

And getting your mounted units to be by sety one or two turns early isn't that big a deal.

It is if it's the difference between fighting and not fighting, which, you know, it is.

For Chp 9, Fee/Femina goes to save the vilages (Flying is different than being mounted since fliers don't get the road move bonus meaning leg units can have as much move as them)

Fee/Femina can't save all of the villages by the time the reinforcements from the top left come if we're playing efficiently. She needs help.

but Celice will have conquered whatever that castle is so all the enemies by the villages die.

Guess what Celice is by this point? That's right, mounted!

I'm having some trouble understanding some of what your saying for the rest of chp 9 for some wierd reason, so I can't really say anything else about it.

Foot soldiers basically have no chance of even reaching the bottom half of the map before we finish the chapter. That's what I'm saying.

For Chp 10, mounted units will help you in reaching Ridale, but you use fliers to save Palmark, not mounted units. Everything else is fair game for foot soldiers.

Umm, why? You have to wait for Celice to seize Miletos to even save Palmark to start. By that point, your team will have converged at the castle. Those Dark Mages can be taken out by anyone riding something, not just Femina/Altenna (who shouldn't be fighting them anyway).

For the final chp, mounted units only help you in reaching Freege faster and can help conquer Edda, but Celice should solo that part.

Celice soloing it isn't effective. Hell, Celice can solo the entire map. Why don't we just let him do that, and to hell with this level?

You need your entire army to effectively beat Ishtar.

Not really. All you really need is Levin!Arthur on Freege and her entire squad is done for.

Burian's army appears right by the home castle.

Guess who has an easier time reaching him? Yeah, you get what I'm saying.

Celice takes some time to reach Dozel and has to fight off those other troops so your foot units won't be to far behind your mounts by the time you have to fight the freega army.

It basically takes Celice the same amount of time as it takes our foot soldiers to reach Dozle. Then, mounted units obviously reach Freege more quickly and take everything down. :/

After you beat Ishtar, you don't need that many units to fight the Dark warlords, and Celice just has to kill Manfloy.

For the last time, who reaches the Dark Warlords first and can canto out of Meteor range?

You know that answer.

I'm not trying to dis Mounted units or anything, I'm just trying to say that being mounted does not automatically make you superior to unmounted units.

If the statistical leads don't cancel out the pros of a mount, it does.

And about this elite ring/leg ring stuff, Celice should have the elite ring since unless he has the Tryfing/Hero Sword, he isn't all that great a unit due to his low bases meaning he wants to level up a bit fairly fast. And Arthur wants the leg ring. Without it, I can no longer see anyreason anyone would give him Holsety.

First of all, Celice is either getting a Hero Sword from his dad, or from Patty in Chapter 7.

Secondly, low bases wut

Lastly, Arthur comes 2 chapters before Sety and gets a mount after promotion. That's reason enough.

I don't see why it's so hard to believe that Johalva can promote by chp 8. I have him do so all the time, and no I don't always have him attack everything since he is already a high level and I want to use my lower level units. And I'm not even trying to say that Johan can't do this either. And if we aren't using the Arena and are making such a big deal about mounted units and giving Celice the leg ring, explain to me how a unit with 5 move magicaly gains 18 lvls and becomes this holy unstopable mounted unit (Levin!Arthur) since he won't promote till probably chp 10 and saying have him save all those children on chp 8 is just favoritism since anyone can save them. According to your logic, foot units suck due to their low move and will never really gain levels ever.

Also, I'm not trying to insult Levin!Arthur either, it's just that your logic makes Levin!Arthur suck in my opinion.

And yes, Celice generally has low bases compared to the units around him. Sigurd does not cap every stat, and no one uses Diadora enough for her to have a significant impact on Celice's stats.

For the chp 6 stuff you said, I forgot that Schimdit could conquer Issac, but using your mounted logic you will already have units down at Issac already and I'm pretty sure the AI is going to attack units with poor avoid, HP, and defense rather than A unit With decent avoid, HP, and defense.

For the Chp 7 stuff, the fact that you think Aless will die before foot units can reach him shows a lack of either skill or experience in using foot units and units in general on your part. Additionally, Aless has the same amount of move as the units chasing him, so he can simply run away to where your foot units are. Again, Tinny's mage army isn't a threat and they aren't everywhere since they are in a somewhat single file line. Plus, Tinny makes use of her full movement unlike the rest of her army, so you'll probably have recruited her and will have an extra unit before her forces reach you. Ishtor's army is a bigger threat than hers.

For Chp 8, Foot units have more move than mounted units in forests, unless they are promoted in which they become equal. And lets say you did have your mounted units fight Muhammeds squad. Your foot units will have had more than enough time to have reached Lenster and be completely capable of fighting Ovo's squad by then. And what I said about Sety was just listing a possibilty of what people might be doing for their own playthrough, and the same goes for what I said about Arthur earlier.

For Chp 9, Fee/Femina reaches the villages before Celice reaches said Castle, unless you gave him the leg ring. And then you have to move Corple/Sharlow to recruit Hannibal, so she has more than enough time to save the villages.

For chp 10, the stuff your saying about how to save palmark seems..... well retarded. Fee/Femina and Altena should be saving palmark. They can fly across the ocean and reach him before he gets killed (which is likely to happen if you don't have your fliers save him since Mounted units probably won't reach him in time without them becoming a major liability) I can't remember if Altena does or doesn't OHKO them, but she has the potential to one round them. Fee has pursuit and continue along with the possibility of having critical and duel, and she has good res. She can effectively kill the dark mages too. I don't understand why you would say they shouldn't be killing them when they are the most effective to use at killing them.

As for your final chp comments, most of what you are saying seems to be pointless over kill that doesn't really make any difference in the long run other than making the game harder (unless that is your goal). Why would you want to charge Burian's unit?

I think the biggest problem I'm having with your Idea's is that your strategies seem to involve charging the enemy with mounted units hoping no one dies instead of my strategy of luring the enemy in and killing them in one turn using everyone.

[Renall]

oh so when Lakche does it it's favoritism

But when Serlis does it's efficency

...yes? Lakche doesn't capture castles. Even if it gets her to a fight 2-3 turns faster and finishes that fight 1-2 turns sooner, if it costs Celice a few turns getting to the next castle it's inefficient. If all of our units except Celice had infinite Move and max combat stats, and could kill all the enemies on the map within one turn, the game still cannot progress until Celice gets his ass to the castle and seizes it. The best our combat troops can hope for is getting to the arbitrary waiting spot that will open up and allow progress and combat when Celice is done doing his thing. This arbitrary limit means Celice needs to get to the castle right around the time we're done fighting and ready to move on (which is why the Leg Ring is a waste after his promotion, as we won't even be done fighting by the time he reaches the castle and he'll be doing it alone).

He's the lord. He has unique utility. He has a very important promotion he needs to get to. He's guaranteed to inherit certain things (since he can never be replacement'd or daddy-screwed) and Sigurd has the opportunity to pass certain things down a lot of fathers can't. He merits a small degree more favoritism than other characters in the name of efficiency.

Also, there's rather a big difference between giving him the Leg Ring before his promotion and giving the Boots to the lord infallibly in the GBA and Tellius games: The maps are freaking gigantic and every objective necessitates that Celice move to a castle and conquer it before the next part of the level can begin. There are no Defend or Rout maps. Even when you are fighting defensively, efficiency dictates Celice needs to start heading toward the next castle as soon as it's feasible and safe. Before his promotion, there is a world of difference when the Leg Ring is used.

And I should note that this necessary favoritism, if anything, hurts Celice's tier ranking, as it's resources we need to pump into him for efficiency's sake.

EDIT: Also, do we have any thoughts on Rana and Lester [Azel]? Rescue Staff and they wind up with Pursuit. Lester loses out on the Killer and Hero until ch8 and gets STR screwed, but at least has Pursuit. Substantially worse than other Lesters, but decent enough, and Lana winds up pretty bitchin' for Staff Chick.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Renall

[Mekkah]

Celice _is_ one of the best Leg or Elite Ring candidates, but it's not for free. They're two of the best rings in the game. The same goes for good swords, though those have less good candidates and there's more of them (Silver Blade, two Hero Swords, two Silver Swords, and even a Steel Blade, then stuff like Prayer Sword, and some sword users have their personal holy weapons, etc). Don't go assume any of those go to anyone unless you're prepared to look at its opportunity cost. In this case, Celice uses it better than anyone, but if Celice is being compared to Lakche you either assume both have Leg Ring (giving Celice an advantage since he uses it better) or Celice gets a Leg Ring and Lakche something like Hero Sword + more healing/shielding/dancing.

[Renall]

Celice _is_ one of the best Leg or Elite Ring candidates, but it's not for free. They're two of the best rings in the game. The same goes for good swords, though those have less good candidates and there's more of them (Silver Blade, two Hero Swords, two Silver Swords, and even a Steel Blade, then stuff like Prayer Sword, and some sword users have their personal holy weapons, etc). Don't go assume any of those go to anyone unless you're prepared to look at its opportunity cost. In this case, Celice uses it better than anyone, but if Celice is being compared to Lakche you either assume both have Leg Ring (giving Celice an advantage since he uses it better) or Celice gets a Leg Ring and Lakche something like Hero Sword + more healing/shielding/dancing.

I'm pretty much fine with that. There's lots of things Celice could have at the start of ch6: Elite and Leg Rings, Hero and Silver Sword, stat rings. Just because he could have them doesn't mean he must get all of them. I'd say he needs to give at least a couple of them up, and there are lots of people that want them (Delmud would like the Hero, Oifaye wouldn't mind Sigurd's old Silver, Lakche and Skasaha would like the swords and the Leg Ring, Arthur wants both rings, everybody wants stat rings).

But having said that, on the narrow point of the Leg Ring, I'm willing to say I'd give up any of those other things to keep the Leg Ring on Celice. Certainly he has no reason to have the Hero Sword that early since he's getting another one from Patty next chapter anyway.

[Mekkah]

Certainly he has no reason to have the Hero Sword that early since he's getting another one from Patty next chapter anyway.

Why not? We're talking Ch6, not Ch7. It's not like anyone who wants to buy a Hero Sword off Celice can't afford it.

(Delmud would like the Hero, Oifaye wouldn't mind Sigurd's old Silver, Lakche and Skasaha would like the swords and the Leg Ring, Arthur wants both rings, everybody wants stat rings).

I'd say it's more like Delmud, Lakche, Skasaha and Oifaye all want swords, everyone likes rings.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Mekkah

[_____]

Not going to reply to Blademaster!, since he's saying that giving Johalva 8 levels in 1 Chapter that he's overleveled in is perfectly OK, and saying that we need to abuse.

@Mekkah and Renall: I wasn't saying that Celice should take it and we shouldn't give whomever he's being compared to nothing. That's absurd. I was merely saying that, since he uses it the best, it's safe to assume that the majority of the time, he'll be using it. That's not much of a stretch, is it?

[Rodykitty]

Stop saying that FE4's arena is considered abuse.

[_____]

Did you actually read what the other guy was saying and don't understand it, or are you just making a baseless claim?

He said that everyone can complete the Arena in this game via save state abuse.

[Rodykitty]

Then actually be specific next time.

[_____]

If you had been paying attention to the conversation and hadn't just jumped to conclusions, I wouldn't even have needed to point that out.

[Rodykitty]

It's actually for your benefit because since I don't side with either side, it'll prevent "Oh, Ninji is saying stupid things" whenever I am skimming through threads not really caring to read larger posts of someone I'm not likely to argue against anyway.

Just say "no save states" next time and I won't think you're spouting crap.

[_____]

Whatever.

Back on topic...

No one ever explained why Roddlevan/Radney > Dimna. Am I missing something?

Edited September 27, 2009 by Ninji

[Fei Mao]

Whatever.

Back on topic...

No one ever explained why Roddlevan/Radney > Dimna. Am I missing something?

Isn't it because Dimna has really poor growth rates?

[Dat Nick]

Oifaye all want swords

...Why Oifaye? He's pretty much Zagaro at this point no matter which sword he uses. I don't think he really cares which weapon he's swinging around. Not at this point in the game, anyway.

Anyway, that in mind, Serlis will not go above Oifaye.

now

No one ever explained why Roddlevan/Radney > Dimna.

existing enemy phase. Is there a reason why they shouldn't?

Also, do we have any thoughts on Rana and Lester [Azel]? Rescue Staff and they wind up with Pursuit. Lester loses out on the Killer and Hero until ch8 and gets STR screwed, but at least has Pursuit. Substantially worse than other Lesters, but decent enough, and Lana winds up pretty bitchin' for Staff Chick.

Hm...

Only if it makes Rana substantially better than other Ranas. Like a tier up on them or something, because we ARE essentially giving Lester the finger.

edt: Oh and

After Grutia is conquered, have Sharlow wait next to Hannibal. A conversation will occur and Sharlow will obtain the Berserk staff.

methinks thats way better than the extra def from Lex

So now only Claude!Corpul>Sharlow.

Edited September 27, 2009 by Germany

[Fei Mao]

I think Asalleo probably has a chance to go above Dimina considering his bases give him a chance to double enemies and be able to deal with fliers better than Dimina would, despite him being recruited later than Dimina and having no Mount/Canto.

[Blademaster!]

Did you actually read what the other guy was saying and don't understand it, or are you just making a baseless claim?

He said that everyone can complete the Arena in this game via save state abuse.

I apologize for making myself unclear about what I was talking about with the Arena. Most people say that using the Arena in most Fire Emblem games is abuse and shouldn't count towards tier lists, and I was assuming the same. But in FE4, the arena isn't as broken as other FE games, and is more nessecary than it is in other games.

Also, by save state abuse, do you mean doing the arena with save states and stopping so that your character isn't left with 1 HP while in the home castle at the begining of the chapter? Or do you mean the previous statement + trying the arena later in the home castle after someone else has used it because the events in the battle might have changed?

I think Asalleo probably has a chance to go above Dimina considering his bases give him a chance to double enemies and be able to deal with fliers better than Dimina would, despite him being recruited later than Dimina and having no Mount/Canto.

Agreed. Dimina is stuck with the Iron bow for chp 6 and the Steel Bow for chp 7, and even with the +5 str boost he recieve's he'll only do Meh damage. Asalleo can use the Silver Bow from the start, and you recieve the Hero Bow and Killer Bow in the same chapter. Asalleo also has duel and is faster than Dimina, along with having about the same if not more str than dimina in the long run. Dimina has more skl and is more durable, but depending on who you give which bow, the skl difference won't matter.

[_____]

I apologize for making myself unclear about what I was talking about with the Arena. Most people say that using the Arena in most Fire Emblem games is abuse and shouldn't count towards tier lists, and I was assuming the same. But in FE4, the arena isn't as broken as other FE games, and is more nessecary than it is in other games.

I know. I never said that our units couldn't use the arena. Using save states to let Johalva gain 8 levels in 1 Chapter when he's overleveled is insane.

Also, by save state abuse, do you mean doing the arena with save states and stopping so that your character isn't left with 1 HP while in the home castle at the begining of the chapter? Or do you mean the previous statement + trying the arena later in the home castle after someone else has used it because the events in the battle might have changed?

I don't understand what you're getting at.

[Eltoshen]

Uh, we can always save after every arena battle, if you do it in the home castle.

[grandjackal]

Uh, we can always save after every arena battle, if you do it in the home castle.

True, but the thought of Johalva promoting so soon is ridiculous even considering.

[Blademaster!]

I apologize for making myself unclear about what I was talking about with the Arena. Most people say that using the Arena in most Fire Emblem games is abuse and shouldn't count towards tier lists, and I was assuming the same. But in FE4, the arena isn't as broken as other FE games, and is more nessecary than it is in other games.

I know. I never said that our units couldn't use the arena. Using save states to let Johalva gain 8 levels in 1 Chapter when he's overleveled is insane.

Also, by save state abuse, do you mean doing the arena with save states and stopping so that your character isn't left with 1 HP while in the home castle at the begining of the chapter? Or do you mean the previous statement + trying the arena later in the home castle after someone else has used it because the events in the battle might have changed?

I don't understand what you're getting at.

What Im trying to say is that I think there are two ways you can save state abuse the arena.

Option 1: You use a save state before every arena battle. If you lose, you go back to the previous save state you had. That way your character doesn't have 1 hp.

Option 2: You do the above option. Then afterwards, you have another unit do something else (attack, heal, move, use the arena. etc.) or you switch to a different weapon. This can change the arena script so that the battle can have a different outcome.

As for Johalva being able to promote by the begining of Chp 8 (in retrospect, end of chp 7 seems to unlikely), here's my reasoning.

On chp 6, Johalva will probably gain 2 or close to 2 levels. He's likely to only attack once, so he won't kill enemies (duel has a 21% chance of activating if he has max hp). He also has the second best durability possible for the chp at 42 HP and 15 Def. Only Oifaye has better durability at 40+ HP and 17+ Def. I don't know the exact enemy Axe Knight stats, but I believe they have 12 str. They deal about 7 damage to him, and If Celice with 3 Lead stars and Delmud are nearby, they have about a high 30% chance of hitting him, more if Schimdt is nearby, but unlikely at most times due to the fact that they move before Schimdt. You'll also probably still have some of Johalva's Axe fighter's with you still and the AI likes to attack them first. For these reasons, Johalva is probably going to attack every turn because he is likely to deal a heavy non lethal blow against enemies with admitidly bad 1-2 range weapons and not take to much damage. Personally, I like to have him kill Schmidt because then I don't have to worry about him having to buy the Hero Axe (Even if it isn't that exspensive). This generally totals to two level ups since he Kill's Schmidt or at least close to two.

For Chp 7, he can use the arena. You generally gain 2~4 lvl ups in the arena depending on your Exp and Level, more if you have Elite. With the Hero Axe, Johalva is likely to only lose against Wolf, the last person you fight in the arena. Manstein deals only 2 damage against him (this includes pursuit). Johalva has about 35% (This might actually be about 15%, I'm not sure) hit rate on him and kills him in two hits. In 20 rounds of battle, it isn't imposible for him to not win since he attacks just as many times as his opponent especially considering how accuracy and avoid work in this game when you are being hit by enemies with 20 hit and missing with 80. During the chapter your likely to use Johalva since he makes for a somewhat good Mage Killer/Knight fighter since he has a hero weapon and does heavy damage against Knights without killing them due to their high def and HP. And No I'm not saying he kills everything, but he probably gets a nice amount of action fighting armor knights.

For Chp 8, he does the arena again and if he can get past Louis, He'll probably promote.

Also, again in retrospect, I don't think you'd be able to do this with Johan (at the very least not as well) only due to the somewhat decent gap in durability they have, Though Johan does better in the arena do to his higher skl(though I don't know if ambush does anything in the arena). Also, Delmud can potentially have the same amount of durability as Johan in early chapters so.....

[Rodykitty]

Option 1: You use a save state before every arena battle. If you lose, you go back to the previous save state you had. That way your character doesn't have 1 hp.

If I recall correctly, this is possible by simply using the game's standard save feature as long as you don't make any units wait at the beginning of the turn. Emulator save states aren't necessary to do this.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

I think Asalleo probably has a chance to go above Dimina considering his bases give him a chance to double enemies and be able to deal with fliers better than Dimina would, despite him being recruited later than Dimina and having no Mount/Canto.

Dimma doesn't have much issues doubling since negative Attack Speed exists in this game. He can double anything using an Axe in C6 despite having 1 SPD (9 - 8 from Bow's WT). Then there's that +5 STR event he has.

Edited September 27, 2009 by ?!

[Eltoshen]

Uh, we can always save after every arena battle, if you do it in the home castle.

True, but the thought of Johalva promoting so soon is ridiculous even considering.

I was answering the question; where did I say that Johalva would promote that soon?

[grandjackal]

Uh, we can always save after every arena battle, if you do it in the home castle.

True, but the thought of Johalva promoting so soon is ridiculous even considering.

I was answering the question; where did I say that Johalva would promote that soon?

I didn't say you said it, but it was the argument Blademaster! was making for Johalva promoting by chapter 8.

[Dat Nick]

we could save after every turn and abuse the RNG until Arden gets a +1 to every stat every time he levels up

I mean you have to draw the line with RNG abuse somewhere