FE4 Gen 2 list

[Dat Nick]

Are children being individually rated or does favoring Faval and screwing over Patty even count against him?

They are individually rated, but screwing over Patty for Faval is a stupid idea to begin with, because as I said earlier, Faval really couldn't give less of a crap who his father is. 95% of the time you're thinking about what to do for Patty when pairing Brigid.

[Mekkah]

I overlooked the Prayer Sword, probably because I usually just end up leaving it on Lachesis. I guess this kind of changes what I think about Fin as a father, but also the Brigid as a mother. Patty can already complete arenas without inheriting Ambush or Prayer. I still think Lex makes a better parent than Holyn because she's still going to need Elite to get anywhere.

For a minor note, she can't inherit the Prayer Sword for obvious reasons. She starts with an awful load of gold though, so she can just buy it off Nanna or Lakche or whoever did inherit it.

This is crap because I just made Fin/Brigid in a ranked run (in Elite Mode), and now I realize that all it did was pretty unnecessary.

I guess I'll use Beo, Holyn or Alec. The horsemen don't bring any good secondary skills, but Pursuit is Pursuit. I think Leaf and Levin!Arthur will manage on the field without a Pursuit Ring.

[Dat Nick]

So BeoPatty somewhere around LexPatty area and BeoFaval right below Lex? [i'm thinking Beo is one of his better fathers, if only for Charge]

[Mekkah]

Beo seems fine, I think, if we ignore first gen convenience and pairing competition. He does need 50 adjacents to Brigid in Ch4 and Ch5 combined, minus some for the turns he's on the map with Brigid in Ch3, which is a pretty tall mountain considering Ch5 is short and they have a move gap. But there's idle some idle time + mountain range in Ch4 and the desert in Ch5 where the move gap isn't an issue.

However, if we ignore first gen competition and all, then throw in Midir. It is 100+3 instead of 50+4, so 7 more turns if adjacent on all, but they also have a convo in Ch3 that gives +100, making it only 42 adjacents. He can't pass on C swords, but he probably has an easier time sticking next to Brigid since he has no business frontlining. And gives the exact same skills. Pretty similar growths, too.

[Dat Nick]

Speaking of first gen convenience, I'm getting a lot of complaints about LachesisFin kids being on over Beo, so I'll change them to Beo versions and put MidirBrigid kids on.

Oh, while we're on the subject of Faval, I think AzelTinny>Favals is a bit farfetched. Her down or Favals up?

Edited October 6, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Fei Mao]

Speaking of first gen convenience, I'm getting a lot of complaints about LachesisFin kids being on over Beo, so I'll change them to Beo versions and put MidirBrigid kids on.

Oh, while we're on the subject of Faval, I think AzelTinny>Favals is a bit farfetched. Her down or Favals up?

I think Faval should move up

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Fee[Levin] in Lower-Mid seems a bit overly harsh. Fee[Claude] moved up but Fee[Levin] is overall better, right?

Faval > Tinny[Azel] is fine with me. Faval up further...Well, him vs. Fee[Claude/Levin] and then Rana. Hmmm. Great offense vs. Generic staff chick with more availability?

Whatever happened to Fin going up? At first glance I would re-organize the bottom of Upper-Mid to Yuria > Fin > Arthur[Azel].

Edited October 6, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[Renall]

While Faval is a very powerful unit, and impossible to really screw up (unless you forgot to get Brigid her bow, which is just dumb, and even then he's got whichever of the Hero/Killer Lester isn't using), I'm not sure I'd put him over Rana or Fee just because they've got time and utility on him. A unit that can't even counter better have some godlike other qualities. And Faval does have godlike offense... once per player phase. Is that really better than flying + speed and/or staves and Staff Chick?

[Dat Nick]

Fee[Levin] in Lower-Mid seems a bit overly harsh. Fee[Claude] moved up but Fee[Levin] is overall better, right?

due to +5 str convo and being rape with magic swords+Adept+Critical, yeah, I'd say so.

Whatever happened to Fin going up?

I seem to be the only one who thinks he's Upper-Mid material. Even if he's only at the bottom of it.

Rana and Fee>Faval

But you at least agree he's better than TinnyAzel, yes?

Also, grouping the Favals.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Blademaster!]

Fee[Levin] in Lower-Mid seems a bit overly harsh. Fee[Claude] moved up but Fee[Levin] is overall better, right?

due to +5 str convo and being rape with magic swords+Adept+Critical, yeah, I'd say so.

Whatever happened to Fin going up?

I seem to be the only one who thinks he's Upper-Mid material. Even if he's only at the bottom of it.

Rana and Fee>Faval

But you at least agree he's better than TinnyAzel, yes?

Also, grouping the Favals.

About Fin, I don't think he should probably be moved up to much if at all. Maybe.

Fin is probably my favorite FE4 character. Whenever I play FE4, I always end up giving him lots of favoritism because I like him that much, even when I try not to because it makes me cry when he isn't as great as he can be or better. I don't think of getting Johalva to level 20 by the begining of Chp 8 as favoritism. Imagine what actual favoritism in my opinion is He still isn't all that great. Duke knights suffer from being possibly the worst mounted class. I shouldn't need to explain why Paladins and Master Knights are better, Forrest Knights have swords and continue, Great Knights are 100% better only suffering from the fact that they are stuck to Axes, and Flying classes can fly. Bow Knights and Lord Knights are probably there only competion for said title, but Lord Knights are Stuck to your Lords and can use swords. If you are using mostly subs he is obviously going to be more usefull, along with the fact that he could be pretty much any level by the time he rejoins you, but I imagine the average level he would be at by part 2 to be level 20, maybe a bit lower. The only other unit like him that could probably be around his level by then is Oifaye (Assuming Begining Chp 7 to Mid), and Possibly Johan and Johalva, maybe even Shanan, though unlikely. For that purpose, I compared his stats to Oifaye, who has the highest chance of being close to Fin's average Level of 20, along with comparing their stats at later levels. For these stats, I have rounded from a 0.5 or higher decimal up for the averages, and assumed that Fin recieved every possible upgrade he can gain (to my knowledge) In part 1. This means he will recieve an extra 4 str, 1 skl, and 2 def to his averages. I have also assumed that Fin has promoted at chp 20 for obvious reasons. I've also assumed Oifaye has gotten hiw bonus of +3 Hp from Level 25 up as they occur late in the game.

Oifaye Lvl 15 20 25 30

HP 40 45 53 58

Str 16 18 20 22

Mag 9 9 10 10

Skl 17 20 24* 24*

Spd 16 18 19 21

Def 17 19 20 21

Res 8 9 9 10

Luk 8 10 12 14

Fin Lvl 15 20 25 30

HP 42 45 49 52

Str 17 24 25 27*

Mag 1 1 1 1

Skl 15 18 20 21

Spd 14 17 18 20

Def 11 15 16 18

Res 1 4 4 4

Luk 15 18 20 23

* means the stat was capped.

Both units have pursuit, but Oifaye benefits from Critical and more playtime. Prayer makes the Arena easier for Fin, but Hero weapons can make the Arena easier anyway, and Fin has a very high chance of generally having the Hero lance due to a lack of having continue, critical or any skill that makes him more likely to kill something, though Fin will probably have critical if he is given his Hero Lance.

Essentially, Oifaye is better in almost every stat only losing in str and luk. Luk only affects avoid in this game, and Since Oifaye can use swords, he is more likely to have higher avoid. Fin is probably dealing a minimum of 10 more damage per round, but that's assuming he gained the +3 str bonus and sometimes he can be to slow in the final, but a speed ring could make up for it.

With this probably somewhat hard to read/understand information I've given, I'm not trying to insult Fin in any way, just point out his negative's and compare him to a higher tier character who is fairly similar to him (in my opinion).

And because I like Fin so much I'm also going to ask/say this: If your going to group the Faval's together, along with the Leen's, I think you should also just group together Fin/Beo!Lachesis too?

Damn. The stat comparisons I made between the two came out so much less clear than the edit. I'll try to fix it again some other time. Sorry for the inconvience.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Blademaster!

[Renall]

Yeah but we're not comparing Fin and Oifaye. Oifaye is one of the best characters in the game. He's top of High. We're just talking about moving Fin up. There's lots of folks between Fin and Oifaye before we'd even start comparing the two.

What village bonuses are available to Fin in the first generation, and should we assume he's likely to get them? I know there's at least one that gives +STR, and honestly he's not a bad pick for it because he can make more use of it later (especially if he's a father and has to make do with Iron for a bit).

EDIT: Oh yes and let's not forget, Fin gets +1 STR/SKL/DEF from Cuan by conversation. Factor in that and a village and you're looking at a swing of 3-4 STR on a unit with Pursuit, which ain't too bad for Fin.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Renall

[Dat Nick]

What village bonuses are available to Fin in the first generation, and should we assume he's likely to get them?

No clue. I was planning on doing a playthrough with every village rescued to collect the bonuses, but it kinda went up in smoke. I'll see if I can revive it...

Furthermore, it's not like Fin is underlevelled himself. I mean you're taking about a guy who people usually assume is 20 by gen 2, and that +5 str promotion boost does a LOT for a hero weapon. 41 atk x2 should be blicking a good deal of stuff, and even if it's not, enemy AS sucks in this game so 5 should be enough to double still. I'm not even sure how high the speed ring is in demand really since most people with Pursuit double just fine, but then again I'm not convinced Fin even needs it.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Dr. Tarrasque]

C3

1 Village gives +3 STR

The other gives +1 DEF

That's pretty much it.

[Dat Nick]

Say we were to use those for inheritence boosts...how much would they benefit other kids? Fury would like to give Fee more str, but if it's like only 1 point...may as well just toss it on Fin for +6 more damage with Hero Lance.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Mekkah]

It doesn't even add one net point iirc. Not worth it. Give it to Fin or someone who is barely missing out on KOs.

Also, don't forget Fin's convo with Cuan in Ch1 that gives him +1 str, skl, def.

[Dat Nick]

That was bought up, and that's what I included in my calculations. Anyway this bumps it up to 44 atk which...blicks everything in C8 bosses nonwithstanding [JUST enough to kill armors] so yeah, he's definitely high tier material. Even above people like Delmud is possible [starts notably better than them and doesn't really slow down], but Fin doesn't exactly have a monopoly on the Hero Lance, so baby steps here.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Blademaster!]

Yeah but we're not comparing Fin and Oifaye. Oifaye is one of the best characters in the game. He's top of High. We're just talking about moving Fin up. There's lots of folks between Fin and Oifaye before we'd even start comparing the two.

What village bonuses are available to Fin in the first generation, and should we assume he's likely to get them? I know there's at least one that gives +STR, and honestly he's not a bad pick for it because he can make more use of it later (especially if he's a father and has to make do with Iron for a bit).

EDIT: Oh yes and let's not forget, Fin gets +1 STR/SKL/DEF from Cuan by conversation. Factor in that and a village and you're looking at a swing of 3-4 STR on a unit with Pursuit, which ain't too bad for Fin.

The reason why I compared Fin to Oifaye is BECAUSE he is top of high. If their stats and abilities were potentially similar, wouldn't that help in giving reason as to why Fin should be higher?

And I know it's hard to read, but I did include the bonus's in the Fin's average chart I made, so it seems kinda wierd to me that people are still talking about the bonuses he gets, I guess.

[Dat Nick]

Im thinking Fin has a case to be high tier, but let's just keep him there for now.

[Mekkah]

Fin vs Delmud qua combat might be arguable for Fin, but Delmud has Charisma to work with, so I wouldn't call that clear cut yet. I agree Fin is High tier. Maybe above the dancers for now. Also:

Altenna

Fee[Noish]

I would switch these up due to sheer availability alone. Altenna pretty much only gets to fight at the tail end of Ch9, and then Ch10 and F, and then large sections of these maps are dangerous for her due to all the Dark Magic: start of Ch10 has a Lopt army, one castle has one, then Julius and Ishtar are surrounded by them, and in the final pretty much every single castle is guarded by a dark magic guy (all with the same lines too...).

Too lazy to check numbers on this, but Fee probably does slightly better defensively, maybe 3HKO'd instead of 2HKO'd. It kind of ends there for Altenna. Winning offense, even if she does so (Fee's offense isn't shabby at all) for pretty much just two chapters alone and then winning defense against melee but losing against magical is not enough to make up for flying utility, star fighting and even some staff utility along the way in four chapters.

[Dat Nick]

Fin to High tier, Fee/Altenna switched.

btw, would anybody mind if I dug up the most recent gen 1 list and included it in this topic? I mean, don't see any reason why we couldn't do both at once.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Salad Utensil]

Umm...why is Fee [Levn] higher than Fee [Claude] again? They should switch. The 30% more speed is not necessary since both forms should cap it anyways and Fee can double most things anyways. Additionally Fee has 15% higher luck growth and 20% higher Resistence growth with Claude as the dad. By the time the +5 strength conversation appears its not like she becomes notably that much better anyways. She gains high enough resistence in this form to not be silenced. She has 5 more resistence after promotion meaning 20 instead of 15 which is borderline silence range.

Libro staff and restore staff on a unit that won't be silenced and has 8 move that ignores terrain is better than Fee that doesn't add anything to the team besides ANOTHER fighter. She also just happens to promote by the time Enemies start to carry infinite use Sleep staves too. Fee [Claude] has a unique utility that can't really be replicated.

[Dat Nick]

Umm...why is Fee [Levn] higher than Fee [Claude] again?

why not? Similar mag and better skills>overkilled res imo.

And...does Fee even get more staff access? She can't inherit staves from Claude and I don't believe staff rank counts for promotions. Does it?

Btw, if we're going to play the devaluation of roles for fighting, we'll do it for staffbots too. We have Rana, Nanna, and any Corple or Sharlow for staves. Do we really need much more?

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Fee[Claude] to above Fee[Levin], eh?

Well, Fee[Claude]'s better Luck doesn't really matter because it's only getting her 4 extra Avoid at Level 30...And then until like Level 25 Fee[Levin] was winning Avoid because of her overkill Speed, and sometimes by much larger amounts. So Res and B staves post-promotion against very small HP and Str leads, Continue and Critical skills, and +5 Strength convo in Chapter 10. I would say no, but maybe I'm underestimating B staves.

And sure BB, add the first generation tier.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[Salad Utensil]

Umm...why is Fee [Levn] higher than Fee [Claude] again?

why not? Similar mag and better skills>overkilled res imo.

And...does Fee even get more staff access? She can't inherit staves from Claude and I don't believe staff rank counts for promotions. Does it?

Btw, if we're going to play the devaluation of roles for fighting, we'll do it for staffbots too. We have Rana, Nanna, and any Corple or Sharlow for staves. Do we really need much more?

You mean Overkill skills > necessary Resistence right?

BTW I disagree

Yes she has B staves at promotion. By the time Fin actually needs the Hero lance to start ORKOing, Fee should be able to promote and not need it anymore (and just use a magic sword or silver lance to kill since she now has continue), she gets 4 hits with it and its not like she really needs more than pursuit+hero lance to kill most things early on (Levn's continue is canceled by hero lance anyways).

While you could use Nanna to heal up to 26HP with a mend staff when everyone in the game reaches around 55-70 HP by the time enemies start to pull out mages and status staff users, sometimes it isn't enough. In the finale and chapter 10 Fee doesn't get silenced nor sleeped due to the "overkill" resistence. Rana, Nanna, and any Corple or Sharlow for staves all are hindered by terrain. Chapter 10 has a huge forest and the finale has a bunch of mountains. Restore and Libro both have 10 range so Fee can hide in a mountain and heal or switch to a restore and heal all HP and flee back to a mountain. Fee with B staves levels has the added minor benefit of leveling notably faster too if you want to save kills for other units to gain Exp, C staves only give up to 35EXP a use (Return) and she has to compete with Nanna for it.

Edited October 7, 2009 by Brighton

[Dat Nick]

While you could use Nanna to heal up to 26HP with a mend staff

...NannaAzel should be healing more than that.

In the finale and chapter 10 Fee doesn't get silenced nor sleeped due to the "overkill" resistence.

Does this res REALLY change that much? I'd imagine she'd at least drop it down to low hit rates.