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Was there any real objections to Johalva>Leaf?

You must have missed that debate a few pages back about the Pursuit Ring money and shit.

What money does Leaf come close to to getting said ring? You'd have to give him all 5 villages to get him to around 25,000, of which I'd say Nanna with her staffs has more a reason to visit them. Where does he get the other 15,000? I don't know how he inherits that much money, his mom is a shitty combatant in the arena and has to repair staffs. His dad can't get all the money, it's only 3 chapters of arena minus repairs.

Johalva has not only an arena (first 4 battles? 7,000 gold, bringing him to 12,000, he's already more than a fourth of the way there), possible lover in Lakche (how bad does she truly care about money ever?), and a possibly payout from Patty.

Again, enlighten me how Leaf suddenly gets all the money to buy it before Johalva?

Edited by France
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Again, enlighten me how Leaf suddenly gets all the money to buy it before Johalva?

Have Ethlin take like Life Ring or Knight Ring or something else you won't really use before Ch3 ends. Or, as I laid out somewhere else, just pass him the Pursuit Ring and take the opportunity cost of not having in 4, 5 and 6, where it doesn't even matter in 6 unless you do crap pairings like Jamka/Aideen.

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Again, enlighten me how Leaf suddenly gets all the money to buy it before Johalva?

Have Ethlin take like Life Ring or Knight Ring or something else you won't really use before Ch3 ends. Or, as I laid out somewhere else, just pass him the Pursuit Ring and take the opportunity cost of not having in 4, 5 and 6, where it doesn't even matter in 6 unless you do crap pairings like Jamka/Aideen.

It's assumed Celice gets the Leg ring, yeah? Well first off, the lord having the Life Ring is always good. Secondly, with cavalier move, Celice also puts the Knight's Ring to good use. He basically becomes a sword cav.

Secondly, what of someone like Noish? If he's to be a father, I'd like him to not be sucking part 1. Since his most likely pairing is Fury, he can sell it once it's all said and done, giving it to someone like Ayra to sell for money and thus could give to her lover Johalva. Johalva could buy it by the time it would matter, doesn't require village monopoly/having the ring gone for 3 chapters where others could have in fact used it.

Johalva then puts it to better use because of brave axe and charge, meaning he is going to kill what he attacks, while Leaf is not as close as likely to do the same n his currently weak state and needing far more chance to activate his skills than Johalva does to land his 4 shots.

One of those villages has a speed ring as well, which Fin would love to have.

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It's assumed Celice gets the Leg ring, yeah?

No it's not. See page 7 for the earlier mess regarding it.

Edited by Athena's Chest
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Yes. Does anybody really care that Corple can heal a single target when we have so many other people to do that already? Reserve offers a unique ability nobody else can do, making Corple actually stand out upon his join time.

You make it seem that Reserve is a Prf staff. Rana at promotion can use it. All forms of Corple can also use it since Sylvia has minor Blaggi blood. Corple still has A staves prepromotion even without Claude as the dad, he can just as easily buy it. Remember my argument about Levn passing down a return ring (since the other can still go to Patty)

And who, praytell, would use it?

Rana can use Reserve too (or if you paired Fury and Claude Sety could, but than it would have arrived even sooner)

So you admit we're having Corple go out of his way to spam staves and having funds poured into him for the sole purpose of benefiting himself, not the team.

...At least you're honest.

All forms of Corple require this. This still doesn't disprove prepromotion Corple [Claude]=Corple [Levn], but Corple [Levn[ is better after promotion.

wtf are you talking about? How did we limit our movement? That area is being taken care of as the boss picks off his troops one by one. Why even bother with it? Going there will only result in us getting caught up in the confusion, so who the hell cares that our movement is restricted? Move on to the next area. You're ignoring the concept that since we have one group of enemeis suiciding against the boss, there is no longer ANY need whatsoever to split our units into groups unless we're using three at a time. But thanks for listing another way Berserk increases efficiency, it allows more of your units in the same place at the same time, meaning you kill the remaining enemies faster.

Enemies I don't think would suicide on the boss on this game since I'm pretty sure the AI still considers them an enemy to you, but I'm not completely sure.

um bosses are generally 5x more powerful than generic noobs

so uh yeah

If enemies don't attack the boss at most 1-6 enemies are killed. You still have to stay away from the boss too. In FE7 and FE5 Berserked enemies still attack you too. The only boss suspectible to berserk staff onward is Aion, who has 8 move so you can't just avoid him and take the castle. I'm not too sure what else to say.

WHAT? The only way how we could have wasted time is if we just spammed end turn waiting for the enemy to get unberserked. You aren't making any sense whatsoever.

It is a very situational staff; I'm not sure besides Aion how else it can be very useful, which is flawed as I point out earlier.

You know what else Sety can get? Holsety. But you don't consider that? Explain this to me like I'm a two year old.

I don't consider that because it isn't relavant. When Corple has Holsety, Sety [Levn] doesn't exist. The player made the choice or mistake to pair Sylvia with Levn so opportunity cost doesn't matter. This is a second generation tier list assuming all pairings already happened so pointing out Sety [Levn] >>>>>>>>>>>> Corple [Levn] doesn't prove a point when we are discussing Corple

Weapons don't get passed down if the father can't use them.

Sages can use B staves, anyone can inherit rings. Levn promotes to a sage. Corple gets Levn's items.

Corple has poor durability with Holsety and Prayer?

Sylvia has Prayer, so Corple always has Prayer.

The point is he's a lousy dodge tank. He's getting hit rates on some things which are a bigger deal than in other FEs, 1 RN and all, and his concrete durability SUCKS. Two hits and it's toodle-loo.

This isn't even true. The difference between Sety [Levn] and Corple [Levn] is the caps causing less evade, but Corple got prayer from Sylvia, so by your definition Sety is also bad at dodging. All holsety users get 2HKOed by the way, your argument isn't unique.

Furthermore, "nobody is a tank" What kind of argument is that? The point is Corple does a poor job at dodge tanking.

Corple [Levn] still has the second highest EVADE in Generation 2. This means you either accept that everyone except Shannan is good at dodging or that Corple is good at dodging. If he is hit to 8 Hp he has the highest evade for a turn (higher than shannan even) and 1-2 range.

Remember to extend my points about the fact that Corple can still buy A staves too so the only thing going for Corple [Claude] at all is Valkyrie.

@Blademaster:

Before you respond to my points please respond to all of them since they depend on each other in order to function. Respond to the fact how people will always be in range to heal with Fee [Claude] as that is the reason she is better. At the stuff against Corple [Levn] and your hype against Valkyrie: please just stop and consider when it actually is used. If you can disprove that 1) Resetting isn't just a better option 2) effenciency demands that you actually will require a strategy to use the Valkyrie. No Sacrificial Lambs to save 1-2 turns is not worth it. Thank you for taking interest in this discussion however.

@everyone, please actually consider my arguments seriously as I'm definitely not advocating Corple [Levn] to top tier or anything, just to be recognized as 'good' pairing (for Corple anyways >_>) and to be placed above Corple [Claude] at least and my goal is to make this list more accurate.

Lastly, remember I have proven there is no difference between Corple [Claude] and Corple [Levn] prepromotion, yet Corple [Levn] is much better after promotion so Corple [Claude]>Corple [Levn]

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Well first off, the lord having the Life Ring is always good.

Why? To restore like ~6 hp per turn? Why's that so good for a lord? Life Ring is one of the single most useless rings in existence.

Secondly, with cavalier move, Celice also puts the Knight's Ring to good use. He basically becomes a sword cav.

Only if you also give him Leg Ring, but that's a dumb assumption.

Secondly, what of someone like Noish? If he's to be a father, I'd like him to not be sucking part 1.

He doesn't have to fight to be a father. It makes a miniscule difference whether he does or not.

giving it to someone like Ayra to sell for money and thus could give to her lover Johalva. Johalva could buy it by the time it would matter, doesn't require village monopoly/having the ring gone for 3 chapters where others could have in fact used it.

That pairing isn't instant, it actually still requires a million turns unless you glue them together. By the time they're lovers Leaf might be closing in on promotion.

Johalva then puts it to better use because of brave axe and charge

That isn't even much better, if any, than Continue + Critical on Leaf, especially if he gets one of the two Hero Swords instead of Continue (crit chances >>>> charge)

One of those villages has a speed ring as well, which Fin would love to have.

Fin is the richest man in town. Even if he's paired up, he has access to up to 25000G from gen 1. He can buy a Speed Ring if he wants one.

So basically Leaf can't have the Pursuit Ring because there is other candidates for everything that involves getting it, but somehow the same doesn't go for Johalva. I see.

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You make it seem that Reserve is a Prf staff.

You make it sound like Holsety isn't a prf tome. You can't say "oh other people can use Reserve" and ignore the exact same opportunity cost in Holsety. Factor them both in, or neither, because you're creating an inconsistency.

And yes, every other Corple can use it. Claude's the only one who can pass it down.

he can just as easily buy it.

A 15k/10 use staff is inconvenient to pass around consiering staff user's tight budget. Let's not make it even more so.

All forms of Corple require this. This still doesn't disprove prepromotion Corple [Claude]=Corple [Levn], but Corple [Levn[ is better after promotion.

ClaudeCorple does NOT require this. He's a useful healer already.

Enemies I don't think would suicide on the boss on this game since I'm pretty sure the AI still considers them an enemy to you, but I'm not completely sure.
Just to be clear: I'm pretty sure a Berserk enemy will never target your units if it can target its own, and if it can't target its own it won't attack at all (at least I believe that's the behavior of a berserked Arion).
If enemies don't attack the boss at most 1-6 enemies are killed.

...Why would bosses be exceptions to attacking their own units? If enemies suicide on a berserk unit, it makes no sense for this rule to change if a berserked unit is the boss.

You still have to stay away from the boss too. In FE7 and FE5 Berserked enemies still attack you too. The only boss suspectible to berserk staff onward is Aion, who has 8 move so you can't just avoid him and take the castle. I'm not too sure what else to say.

My god, so STAY AWAY FROM THE BOSS. His troops are killing himself on them. You'd only get caught in the crossfire by sending other units there so you are WASTING YOUR TIME BY SENDING ANY UNIT THERE. So this is not a problem. Honestly, how many times are you going to make me repeat the exact same thing?

It is a very situational staff; I'm not sure besides Aion how else it can be very useful, which is flawed as I point out earlier.

Your explanation for how it is flawed is flawed, and it is useful because it reduces turncount and generally makes the chapter easier.

I don't consider that because it isn't relavant. When Corple has Holsety, Sety [Levn] doesn't exist. The player made the choice or mistake to pair Sylvia with Levn so opportunity cost doesn't matter. This is a second generation tier list assuming all pairings already happened so pointing out Sety [Levn] >>>>>>>>>>>> Corple [Levn] doesn't prove a point when we are discussing Corple

But you don't apply the EXACT SAME THING for the Reserve staff.

that makes sense

Sages can use B staves, anyone can inherit rings. Levn promotes to a sage. Corple gets Levn's items.

Maybe a few. But I'm not going to give him shit like warp, return, physic, etc without pushing the favoritism button, so I'm not sure what Levin actually has to pass down.

This isn't even true. The difference between Sety [Levn] and Corple [Levn] is the caps causing less evade

Um, exactly.

but Corple got prayer from Sylvia, so by your definition Sety is also bad at dodging.

I don't dispute that Prayer saves him, but it's only for one turn.

All holsety users get 2HKOed by the way, your argument isn't unique.

no they're not? Sety actually has existing HP/Def, so he isn't 100% reliant on avo.

Corple [Levn] still has the second highest EVADE in Generation 2.

No, he doesn't. Shanan and Sety outdo him.

This means you either accept that everyone except Shannan is good at dodging

Most other characters have something called existing concrete durability so they don't NEED to be good at dodging.

Remember to extend my points about the fact that Corple can still buy A staves too so the only thing going for Corple [Claude] at all is Valkyrie.

For 15k. And we're already pissing out a small fortune for the "Staff Abuse LevinCorple to level 20 by final" fund. Give me one good reason why this brat should get any more favoritism than you're already giving him.

@everyone, please actually consider my arguments seriously as I'm definitely not advocating Corple [Levn] for top tier

Knock it off with this. Everybody knows what you're arguing, myself included. The issue is that I don't agree with it because you're spoon feeding ridiculous amounts of favoritism into LevinCorple in the form of enough money to buy out Microsoft.

yet Corple [Levn] is much better after promotion so Corple [Claude]>Corple [Levn]

"good" combat with 5 move for the ONE chapter he has it is not "much" better.

Edited by Athena's Chest
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Why? To restore like ~6 hp per turn? Why's that so good for a lord? Life Ring is one of the single most useless rings in existence.

It allows him extra player phases, and it does count early on. I do recall him being close to edging out a 2HKO, and a Life Ring could help him have hte player phase afterwards without healing.

I can't have numbers, but then again there are no stats...

Only if you also give him Leg Ring, but that's a dumb assumption.

Gets him to castles faster and helps his combat, which lets him promote faster, which lets him sell it so some other foot soldier who can't do the same now has said greatness. What's so dumb about that?

He doesn't have to fight to be a father. It makes a miniscule difference whether he does or not.

One way or another, I'd think he'd love the ring. Berserk and Charge with pursuit, yes please.

That pairing isn't instant, it actually still requires a million turns unless you glue them together. By the time they're lovers Leaf might be closing in on promotion.

Ok, seems I need 150 turns, but why wouldn't they be glued together?

That isn't even much better, if any, than Continue + Critical on Leaf, especially if he gets one of the two Hero Swords instead of Continue (crit chances >>>> charge)

Suddenly, Delmud and Celice aren't allowed the hero sword? And I'd rather rely on solid hapening than chance.

Fin is the richest man in town. Even if he's paired up, he has access to up to 25000G from gen 1. He can buy a Speed Ring if he wants one.

Bleh. Fine, but what of Nanna? She'd love instant money for her staffs and Earth Sword.

So basically Leaf can't have the Pursuit Ring because there is other candidates for everything that involves getting it, but somehow the same doesn't go for Johalva. I see.

Johalva is there first, and an efficient team shouldn't have to deal with people not having pursuit. Since getting him money requires no sort of concentration of funds but rather just playing hte game normally, he has more than claim to it.

To Brighton: You realize people only inherit things they can use, right? So only Sety and Corple can actually GET the Reserve Staff. Only other way is if Rana's father is Claude, which is just stupid.

Edited by France
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Corple [Levn] still has the second highest EVADE in Generation 2.

No, he doesn't. Shanan and Sety outdo him.

If Corple!Levin exists, Sety won't have more avoid than him.

@Blademaster:

Before you respond to my points please respond to all of them since they depend on each other in order to function. Respond to the fact how people will always be in range to heal with Fee [Claude] as that is the reason she is better. At the stuff against Corple [Levn] and your hype against Valkyrie: please just stop and consider when it actually is used. If you can disprove that 1) Resetting isn't just a better option 2) effenciency demands that you actually will require a strategy to use the Valkyrie. No Sacrificial Lambs to save 1-2 turns is not worth it. Thank you for taking interest in this discussion however.

Lastly, remember I have proven there is no difference between Corple [Claude] and Corple [Levn] prepromotion, yet Corple [Levn] is much better after promotion so Corple [Claude]>Corple [Levn]

But what staves can Fee!Claude really even make use of that would make her that much better? The only B ranked staves I would think of giving her are recover, libro(physics), and rest. With relive, Fee will still heal around 50HP, so recover isn't really that much better. Libro and rest are both ranged staves, and most of your magic units will have better magic than her and are generally pretty close to your units so that extra mov isn't really helping, esspecially when you consider the fact that Sety and Tinny have better mov than her on roads, if not the same, so the advantage of having libro isn't all that great. That just leaves rest, which is occasionally a bad staff for her to have (having two units able to kill dark mages on the final is better than having only one since the AI generally targets Altena for obvious reasons). The only real advantage she has with the staves is being able to hide and use them, but most of your staff users are already away from combat if they are using such staves. Fee!Levin beats out Fee!claude greatly in combat, esspecially with the +5 str bonus, and heals about 50 hp with relieve anyway, so she is already a pretty good healer. The staff advantage Fee!Claude has really isn't that big a deal compared to the huge gap in combat that Fee!Levin creates.

Also, just because you can reset to a turn earlier doesn't mean that your going to save the person from dying again, let alone save someone else. And one of the most agrevating things in Fire Emblem is having to reset back to the begining of the chapter, esspecially when say your Fin!Nanna just gained two level ups in a row where her mag grew or something. And you don't have to be a sacrificail lamb to make use of the valkyrie staff. Someone could get RNG screwed and die or someone could miss a certain aspect when they end their turn/their turn doesn't workout as well as it could have, and someone dies. The Valkyrie staff adds the comfort off knowing you don't have to worry about that happening to an extent.

Also, prepromotion Corple!Claude is pretty much always > Corple!Levin. Since the Reserve staff is passed down to him, that's an extra 10 uses of the reserve staff and potentially saves us some money since, as a healer, Corple doesn't really need to promote. Additionally, it allows him to use the valkyrie staff, which has some great benefits as I explained above.

Also, I'm starting to think that Arthur!Levin shouldn't be at the very top of this tier. I'm going to try and make an argument to probably get him to go down a bit so that Levin!Sety, and maybe even Aless and Shanan should be above him. I just really can't see how a unit without pursuit could be top tier, even if Holsety is broken and he has continue and critical.

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To France: Rana can use A staves after promoting. She doesn't HAVE to have Claude as a dad to use it

You make it sound like Holsety isn't a prf tome. You can't say "oh other people can use Reserve" and ignore the exact same opportunity cost in Holsety. Factor them both in, or neither, because you're creating an inconsistency.

And yes, every other Corple can use it. Claude's the only one who can pass it down.

In the PT where you have Corple [Levn], Sety [Levn] doesn't exist. Why is there an opportunity cost when Holsety is a PRF weapon, when have I ever said that Holsety was PRF, it was YOU who said it was. It makes no sense to say: Even though Corple is Levn's son, Sety should have got it instead even though he can't use it in the PF, then you say OPPORTUNITY COST as if you are actually comparing things that can never happen in the same universe then you assert I'm wrong and ignore my point repeatedly that OPPORTUNITY cost doesn't exist when only one PC can inherit it at once

A 15k/10 use staff is inconvenient to pass around consiering staff user's tight budget. Let's not make it even more so
ClaudeCorple does NOT require this. He's a useful healer already.

Give Corple the return ring, Levn should not have trouble buying it unless all you did in chapter 4-5 is spam Holsety on generics and got 50 kills with it. Such a easy way to remedy a basic problem

So is Corple [Levn], stop ignoring this point! If the only difference is the reserve staff than just have him buy for gods sake. It only costs 5k once you sell the ring. If it is this easy to make them equal your argument has almost no weight

...Why would bosses be exceptions to attacking their own units? If enemies suicide on a berserk unit, it makes no sense for this rule to change if a berserked unit is the boss.

Bosses attack his enemies, but the enemies don't attack the boss. This means they don't suicide on the boss and only 5 enemies end up dead.

My god, so STAY AWAY FROM THE BOSS. His troops are killing himself on them. You'd only get caught in the crossfire by sending other units there so you are WASTING YOUR TIME BY SENDING ANY UNIT THERE. So this is not a problem. Honestly, how many times are you going to make me repeat the exact same thing?

You are just ignoring my response that the situation where you could just avoid said boss never happens. Lets take my Arione example AGAIN. He has 9 move and ignores terrain, how are you going to get past him to seize the castle hmm?

BTW I don't think the berserk staff is relavant anymore since, we are discussing Corple [Levn] Vs Corple [Claude]

But you don't apply the EXACT SAME THING for the Reserve staff.

that makes sense

I'm not completely sure what you mean, but again this isn't relevant since we aren't discussing Sety [Claude] vs Rana vs Corple

Maybe a few. But I'm not going to give him shit like warp, return, physic, etc without pushing the favoritism button, so I'm not sure what Levin actually has to pass down.

Thus, the only difference in staves being passed down is Reserve and Valkyrie, the former can actually be bought too since Levn doesn't suck as much in the arena as Claude and can afford to buy a useless ring for Corple to inherit to sell

This isn't even true. The difference between Sety [Levn] and Corple [Levn] is the caps causing less evade

You: Um, exactly.

Is 14 evade really meaningful. I'm not saying he's better than Sety, because obviously he isn't, I'm saying that Corple is good enough at dodging to show that he CAN be somewhat useful in the finale and more useful than Corple [Claude] in the Finale as well.

I don't dispute that Prayer saves him, but it's only for one turn.

Do you need more than 1 turn to dodge tank, luring all the enemies for the rest of your army to destroy?

no they're not? Sety actually has existing HP/Def, so he isn't 100% reliant on avo.

Lets compare thier level 30 stats because It is actually possible to have all your characters approach level 30 by the finale.

From Evade Sety wins 11 avo, but Corple has Prayer

Corple has 64.8HP/11.2def

Sety has 63.4HP/14.6def

I'd say they are comparable defensively. I'm not advocating him to high tier thought because thats rediculous I'm just advocating him to Somewhere above Corple [Claude]

No, he doesn't. Shanan and Sety outdo him.

Sety [Levn] doesn't exist let me remind you for the 1231312312312314234235 time when you have corple [Levn]

Shannan wins, but doesn't have 2 range, therefore second highest

Most other characters have something called existing concrete durability so they don't NEED to be good at dodging.

Corple ends up with as much durability as the rest of the characters stop denying this and my numbers from the previous reponses shows why I'm right. The reason ALL Corples are so low is due to availibility and need to favor him, but you can't lie about stats. Even IF you never raise him at all you can't deny they are still the same prepromotion, Stop ignoring the fact Corple [Levn] can actually inherit the return ring, whereas it would be MUCH more difficult to inherit from Claude since his income relies almost exclusively from others and he suks in the arena and much repair the Stupid Reserve staff to begin with unless you want Corple [Claude] to inherit a broken staff, which defeats the entire purpose of his "Unique" utility (even though it isn't)

For 15k. And we're already pissing out a small fortune for the "Staff Abuse LevinCorple to level 20 by final" fund. Give me one good reason why this brat should get any more favoritism than you're already giving him.

5k since he is the best Candidate for the second return ring due to the fact no one has as much trouble getting money as him is all that requires him to equal Claude [Corple]. Major positive utility in the Finale is why you favor him (it isn't even hard since you basically have an infinite use hammerne staff).

Knock it off with this. Everybody knows what you're arguing, myself included. The issue is that I don't agree with it because you're spoon feeding ridiculous amounts of favoritism into LevinCorple in the form of enough money to buy out Microsoft.

I don't give a damn if you think I'm a jerk for arguing against you. Here is my premise: He is only 5k gold different from Corple [Claude] before promotion so basically equal. After promotion he is much better and actually able to contribute, so even if you don't invest in him, which doesn't really cost you much at all since most your characters are good already and you can actually afford a little favoratism (who else really needs those Civilians if everyone is level 23-27 already), look I'm not getting into a Everyone>Corple debate, because I can't beat facts and I choose not to hype Characters up to unreasonable amounts like France.

If he is promoted he is better than Corple [Claude], if he doesn't get promoted he is so close to equal it doesn't matter (5k for better dodge and prayer in case he is ever attacked for some reason). Because since at worst he is equal, at best he is much better.

"good" combat with 5 move for the ONE chapter he has it is not "much" better.

So he is better, glad you agree with me.

Edited by Brighton
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Lastly, remember I have proven there is no difference between Corple [Claude] and Corple [Levn] prepromotion, yet Corple [Levn] is much better after promotion so Corple [Claude]>Corple [Levn]

But what staves can Fee!Claude really even make use of that would make her that much better? The only B ranked staves I would think

of giving her are recover, libro(physics), and rest. With relive, Fee will still heal around 50HP, so recover isn't really that much better. Libro and rest are both ranged staves, and most of your magic units will have better magic than her and are generally pretty close to your units so that extra mov isn't really helping, esspecially when you consider the fact that Sety and Tinny have better mov than her on roads, if not the same, so the advantage of having libro isn't all that great.

That just leaves rest, which is occasionally a bad staff for her to have (having two units able to kill dark mages on the final is better than having only one since the AI generally targets Altena for obvious reasons). The only real advantage she has with the staves is being able to hide and use them, but most of your staff users are already away from combat if they are using such staves. Fee!Levin beats out Fee!claude greatly in combat, esspecially with the +5 str bonus, and heals about 50 hp with relieve anyway, so she is already a pretty good healer. The staff advantage Fee!Claude has really isn't that big a deal compared to the huge gap in combat that Fee!Levin creates.

Also, just because you can reset to a turn earlier doesn't mean that your going to save the person from dying again, let alone save someone else. And one of the most agrevating things in Fire Emblem is having to reset back to the begining of the chapter, esspecially when say your Fin!Nanna just gained two level ups in a row where her mag grew or something. And you don't have to be a sacrificail lamb to make use of the valkyrie staff. Someone could get RNG screwed and die or someone could miss a certain aspect when they end their turn/their turn doesn't workout as well as it could have, and someone dies. The Valkyrie staff adds the comfort off knowing you don't have to worry about that happening to an extent.

Also, prepromotion Corple!Claude is pretty much always > Corple!Levin. Since the Reserve staff is passed down to him, that's an extra 10 uses of the reserve staff and potentially saves us some money since, as a healer, Corple doesn't really need to promote. Additionally, it allows him to use the valkyrie staff, which has some great benefits as I explained above.

Also, I'm starting to think that Arthur!Levin shouldn't be at the very top of this tier. I'm going to try and make an argument to probably get him to go down a bit so that Levin!Sety, and maybe even Aless and Shanan should be above him. I just really can't see how a unit without pursuit could be top tier, even if Holsety is broken and he has continue and critical.

Tinny and Sety don't walk over mountain peaks too. Fee can. constant 8 move lets you access anyone to heal in almost all situations.

Is the combat gap really that big? IF they keep the Hero Lance they always one round, If Fee is given a silver lance she still one rounds. What does Altenna have to do with anything? I'm confused

FE4 lets you save anytime as long as you don't move your units at the start of a turn.

I think the reason Arthur is so high is because he is the first Holy weapon user, has 2 range and can easily promote by chapter 8. His position in chapter 7 lets him kill Istor without having to wait for Shannan and he can reach Blume faster than Aless so the move advantage is negated for the chapter. Seems like high tier for me. He will always OHKO if below half health, and continue+Crit+Holsety is reliable KINDA, I've had times he failed to ORKO too, but...I kinda agree with you though, but I think he wins due to availibility.

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Uhhh, Brighton. That would then require her to buy it. You don't seem to understand. I suppose you're saying we have Claude sell it, give it to Eden to pass down to her kid. Rana can't use it unless Claude's teh addy, meaning the staff VANISHES. She can't tote it around till promotion, she has to buy it. Only ones who can use the staff is Corple and Setty with Claude as the daddy. Since there are superior Setys and Corple would then free Sety up to be more kickass all the tie rather than half the time, I see no reason that it should be Corple who has the Reserve Staff.

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Lastly, remember I have proven there is no difference between Corple [Claude] and Corple [Levn] prepromotion, yet Corple [Levn] is much better after promotion so Corple [Claude]>Corple [Levn]

But what staves can Fee!Claude really even make use of that would make her that much better? The only B ranked staves I would think

of giving her are recover, libro(physics), and rest. With relive, Fee will still heal around 50HP, so recover isn't really that much better. Libro and rest are both ranged staves, and most of your magic units will have better magic than her and are generally pretty close to your units so that extra mov isn't really helping, esspecially when you consider the fact that Sety and Tinny have better mov than her on roads, if not the same, so the advantage of having libro isn't all that great.

That just leaves rest, which is occasionally a bad staff for her to have (having two units able to kill dark mages on the final is better than having only one since the AI generally targets Altena for obvious reasons). The only real advantage she has with the staves is being able to hide and use them, but most of your staff users are already away from combat if they are using such staves. Fee!Levin beats out Fee!claude greatly in combat, esspecially with the +5 str bonus, and heals about 50 hp with relieve anyway, so she is already a pretty good healer. The staff advantage Fee!Claude has really isn't that big a deal compared to the huge gap in combat that Fee!Levin creates.

Also, just because you can reset to a turn earlier doesn't mean that your going to save the person from dying again, let alone save someone else. And one of the most agrevating things in Fire Emblem is having to reset back to the begining of the chapter, esspecially when say your Fin!Nanna just gained two level ups in a row where her mag grew or something. And you don't have to be a sacrificail lamb to make use of the valkyrie staff. Someone could get RNG screwed and die or someone could miss a certain aspect when they end their turn/their turn doesn't workout as well as it could have, and someone dies. The Valkyrie staff adds the comfort off knowing you don't have to worry about that happening to an extent.

Also, prepromotion Corple!Claude is pretty much always > Corple!Levin. Since the Reserve staff is passed down to him, that's an extra 10 uses of the reserve staff and potentially saves us some money since, as a healer, Corple doesn't really need to promote. Additionally, it allows him to use the valkyrie staff, which has some great benefits as I explained above.

Also, I'm starting to think that Arthur!Levin shouldn't be at the very top of this tier. I'm going to try and make an argument to probably get him to go down a bit so that Levin!Sety, and maybe even Aless and Shanan should be above him. I just really can't see how a unit without pursuit could be top tier, even if Holsety is broken and he has continue and critical.

Tinny and Sety don't walk over mountain peaks too. Fee can. constant 8 move lets you access anyone to heal in almost all situations.

Is the combat gap really that big? IF they keep the Hero Lance they always one round, If Fee is given a silver lance she still one rounds. What does Altenna have to do with anything? I'm confused

FE4 lets you save anytime as long as you don't move your units at the start of a turn.

I think the reason Arthur is so high is because he is the first Holy weapon user, has 2 range and can easily promote by chapter 8. His position in chapter 7 lets him kill Istor without having to wait for Shannan and he can reach Blume faster than Aless so the move advantage is negated for the chapter. Seems like high tier for me. He will always OHKO if below half health, and continue+Crit+Holsety is reliable KINDA, I've had times he failed to ORKO too, but...I kinda agree with you though, but I think he wins due to availibility.

Being on mountain peaks=being out of enemy range. Libro users are most likely always out of enemy range and have better magic than Fee, and in the case of Sety and Tinny, they may be on the front lines dealing some nice damage. Fee!Claude needs continue to activate to one round with the silver lance on most occasions and although she will one round with the hero lance, she may take damage during the turn she attacks with it since she won't kill the enemy in the first two attacks with out critical. Fee!Levin has the +5 str bonus not too long after Fee will start to have trouble one rounding enemies with the silver lance, along with continue before promotion and critical. Your looking too much into what happens after promotion. Think about what happens before promotion too, as the only units who will probably promote before chapter 9 are Johan/Johalva along with anyone with Elite, a bonus Fee is unlikely to have.

About Altena: Inorder to kill most of the annoying longrange darkmages/status mages on the final chp, you need to make use of Altena and Fee. The AI will pretty much always put Altena to sleep since she has the Gae Bolg. If Fee has rest, that means you have to rely on Altena killing enemies she may not even one round.

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Uhhh, Brighton. That would then require her to buy it. You don't seem to understand. I suppose you're saying we have Claude sell it, give it to Eden to pass down to her kid. Rana can't use it unless Claude's teh addy, meaning the staff VANISHES. She can't tote it around till promotion, she has to buy it. Only ones who can use the staff is Corple and Setty with Claude as the daddy. Since there are superior Setys and Corple would then free Sety up to be more kickass all the tie rather than half the time, I see no reason that it should be Corple who has the Reserve Staff.

The staff doesn't ever VANISH

Umm actually she can easily promote by chapter 9 around the time Corple appears. The fastest Reserve that can appear is with Sety (or you can give Aideen a bad pairing), otherwise it is dropped by the enemy Hi priest near Sety's group. If its not inherented it always comes later, but always before Corple appears. Theres nothing wrong with Sety [Levn] either, if you use that logic, pairing Fury with Claude frees up Arthur to inherent Holsety.

BTW nice sig LOL@ giving Thany Dick

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Uhhh, Brighton. That would then require her to buy it. You don't seem to understand. I suppose you're saying we have Claude sell it, give it to Eden to pass down to her kid. Rana can't use it unless Claude's teh addy, meaning the staff VANISHES. She can't tote it around till promotion, she has to buy it. Only ones who can use the staff is Corple and Setty with Claude as the daddy. Since there are superior Setys and Corple would then free Sety up to be more kickass all the tie rather than half the time, I see no reason that it should be Corple who has the Reserve Staff.

The staff doesn't ever VANISH

Umm actually she can easily promote by chapter 9 around the time Corple appears. The fastest Reserve that can appear is with Sety (or you can give Aideen a bad pairing), otherwise it is dropped by the enemy Hi priest near Sety's group. If its not inherented it always comes later, but always before Corple appears. Theres nothing wrong with Sety [Levn] either, if you use that logic, pairing Fury with Claude frees up Arthur to inherent Holsety.

BTW nice sig LOL@ giving Thany Dick

Yes, yes it does because I've seen it happen before. I tried that, the thing was not in her inventory.

As for the staff showing up around Sety's time, it's not long enough a time away from it to care really. As for Claude being freed up, another one of those deals is that he could pair up with Sylvia, now Corple has a purpose. It doesn;t have to be Claude banging Fury to free up Levn to go and fuck around with Tiltyu.

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Being on mountain peaks=being out of enemy range. Libro users are most likely always out of enemy range and have better magic than Fee, and in the case of Sety and Tinny, they may be on the front lines dealing some nice damage. Fee!Claude needs continue to activate to one round with the silver lance on most occasions and although she will one round with the hero lance, she may take damage during the turn she attacks with it since she won't kill the enemy in the first two attacks with out critical. Fee!Levin has the +5 str bonus not too long after Fee will start to have trouble one rounding enemies with the silver lance, along with continue before promotion and critical. Your looking too much into what happens after promotion. Think about what happens before promotion too, as the only units who will probably promote before chapter 9 are Johan/Johalva along with anyone with Elite, a bonus Fee is unlikely to have.

About Altena: Inorder to kill most of the annoying longrange darkmages/status mages on the final chp, you need to make use of Altena and Fee. The AI will pretty much always put Altena to sleep since she has the Gae Bolg. If Fee has rest, that means you have to rely on Altena killing enemies she may not even one round.

Is it ok if I say that we should really talk about Fee prepromotion because they all are the same basically except Fee [Noish] who rocks.

But what if they aren't in range? Mounted units do unfortunately have the problem of running away. While the priests can heal people like Lachke and Shannan. Non Nanna [Azel] kinda sucks at healing. Fee with a Libro is comparable to Nanna with mend. Fee with recover is also nice too, libro means if Fee is flying solo she can still assist the group. If we use their level 30 stats for the finale (since the conversation occurs at the end of chapter 10 and you aren't really needing her for combat much more in that chapter since all that is basically left is Alvis). Fee [Levn] admittedly does 1RKO the mages in the finale barely, unfortunately she is also suspectible to the status staves, whereas Fee [Claude] isn't (also borderline resistence). The thing is Fee [Claude] problem is fixed by a power ring, Fee [Levn] is fixed by a barrier ring. They don't really ORKO anything, but mages with the silver lance and pursuit, but everything with the hero lance. Critical allows Fee to have around 20ish percent more chance to kill, but I'm sure at least some weapons that have critical by now can be given to Fee [Claude] too (It is the Finale after all).

Most characters can actually promote by chapter 9 if you pass away the elite ring effieciently. Some personal experience, but everyone except for Leaf, Tinny, Faval, and Nanna promoted in my AAAA ranked run at the start of chapter 9 so it is definitely possible (yes even Patty).

Next you argue that they will target Altena. However, they will also target Fee [Levn] too since she is also suspectible to status staves. 2 sleeped characters is not good. If they are flying off alone, Tinny and Sety can't reach them. One who uses restore while the other attacks is a better situation. Plus, Fee can heal Altena without being right next to her. BTW if any form of Fee with silver can ORKO, Altena will definitely ORKO enemies.

While Fee [Levn] wins Offensively in the Finale, Fee [Claude] wins with her long range staff utility that covers a rediculous range. Its hard to say, but I feel since they are the same except for the last chapter, but Fee [Claude] is more helpful longer, I feel like Fee [Claude] is better, barely though since they are so similar.

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Yes, yes it does because I've seen it happen before. I tried that, the thing was not in her inventory.

As for the staff showing up around Sety's time, it's not long enough a time away from it to care really. As for Claude being freed up, another one of those deals is that he could pair up with Sylvia, now Corple has a purpose. It doesn;t have to be Claude banging Fury to free up Levn to go and fuck around with Tiltyu.

No it doesn't disappear: http://www.serenesforest.net/fe4/location.html Look up reserve

Well Corple can still have a purpose if Levn is the dad, but I really don't want to get into that with you since I've spent enough time debating it with Althena's Chest. Besides I hate acting like a jerk, even if it is the internet. Besides any form of Corple can just buy the Reserve staff that is dropped in chapter 9 too. I mean if you pair Sylvia with Azel for example, he can also pass down a ring like Return and Corple can sell it and only incur a loss of 5k (one village). True slight favoritism, but its not like anyone really need the second return ring and Corple makes the best use of it since he comes so late, otherwise he just gets a second village plus his base $$$ is enough for the 15k of the Reserve. Im not seeing that as much favortism since the villages in this game are rediculous (I thought they were poor, where the heck do they get 5k to give to a stranger).

Its not like I'm saying you should pair Claude and Fury I'm just saying that is the best pairing to get Reserve fastest. Corple always has A staves from his mother's minor Blaggi blood. Its not like Corple suddenly gained a purpose if he did inherit Reserve vs when he doesn't. If he does inherit it you can just as easily sell it and give to Rana (honestly I do this when I pair Sylvia with Claude).

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Being on mountain peaks=being out of enemy range. Libro users are most likely always out of enemy range and have better magic than Fee, and in the case of Sety and Tinny, they may be on the front lines dealing some nice damage. Fee!Claude needs continue to activate to one round with the silver lance on most occasions and although she will one round with the hero lance, she may take damage during the turn she attacks with it since she won't kill the enemy in the first two attacks with out critical. Fee!Levin has the +5 str bonus not too long after Fee will start to have trouble one rounding enemies with the silver lance, along with continue before promotion and critical. Your looking too much into what happens after promotion. Think about what happens before promotion too, as the only units who will probably promote before chapter 9 are Johan/Johalva along with anyone with Elite, a bonus Fee is unlikely to have.

About Altena: Inorder to kill most of the annoying longrange darkmages/status mages on the final chp, you need to make use of Altena and Fee. The AI will pretty much always put Altena to sleep since she has the Gae Bolg. If Fee has rest, that means you have to rely on Altena killing enemies she may not even one round.

Is it ok if I say that we should really talk about Fee prepromotion because they all are the same basically except Fee [Noish] who rocks.

But what if they aren't in range? Mounted units do unfortunately have the problem of running away. While the priests can heal people like Lachke and Shannan. Non Nanna [Azel] kinda sucks at healing. Fee with a Libro is comparable to Nanna with mend. Fee with recover is also nice too, libro means if Fee is flying solo she can still assist the group. If we use their level 30 stats for the finale (since the conversation occurs at the end of chapter 10 and you aren't really needing her for combat much more in that chapter since all that is basically left is Alvis). Fee [Levn] admittedly does 1RKO the mages in the finale barely, unfortunately she is also suspectible to the status staves, whereas Fee [Claude] isn't (also borderline resistence). The thing is Fee [Claude] problem is fixed by a power ring, Fee [Levn] is fixed by a barrier ring. They don't really ORKO anything, but mages with the silver lance and pursuit, but everything with the hero lance. Critical allows Fee to have around 20ish percent more chance to kill, but I'm sure at least some weapons that have critical by now can be given to Fee [Claude] too (It is the Finale after all).

Most characters can actually promote by chapter 9 if you pass away the elite ring effieciently. Some personal experience, but everyone except for Leaf, Tinny, Faval, and Nanna promoted in my AAAA ranked run at the start of chapter 9 so it is definitely possible (yes even Patty).

Next you argue that they will target Altena. However, they will also target Fee [Levn] too since she is also suspectible to status staves. 2 sleeped characters is not good. If they are flying off alone, Tinny and Sety can't reach them. One who uses restore while the other attacks is a better situation. Plus, Fee can heal Altena without being right next to her. BTW if any form of Fee with silver can ORKO, Altena will definitely ORKO enemies.

While Fee [Levn] wins Offensively in the Finale, Fee [Claude] wins with her long range staff utility that covers a rediculous range. Its hard to say, but I feel since they are the same except for the last chapter, but Fee [Claude] is more helpful longer, I feel like Fee [Claude] is better, barely though since they are so similar.

Not all prepromotion Fees are similar. Claude!Fee only has pusuit. Levin!Fee has continue and critical. Additionally, Levin!Fee has better growths and bases in most stats reaching Claude!Fee's average lvl 30 spd at lvl 21. The +5 Str convo doesn't occur at the end of Chp 10. It occurs in the middle. That allows her to fight the dark mages and Alvis army. And with the +5 str convo bonus, the only non boss enemies Fee should have trouble one rounding are the Freege Barons and the Dark warlords.

Also, this isn't a Ranked run, and even if it was, you should never split your army in a way that it would be out of range of all of your healers. That is just using poor and risky strategy. There is no reason as to why your healers should be out of range of almost any unit.

Fee levin shouldn't be affected by the status stave wielding dark mages on the final chapter. Even without the barrier ring, she generally has enough resistance. And should she even be afflicted with sleep, who ever has the rest staff will still be able to heal both of them on one turn since your dancer is more likey to be near that person than Fee!Claude should she have the rest staff. Also, I think the AI is more likely to silence Fee!Levin should she be able to afflict a status on her since the AI is more programed to silence enemies who can use magic and will be affected by it. The reason why Altena doesn't ORKO certain dark mages is because Lances are heavy, and since they have no weapons, they have pretty good AS (even though they can't attack) so Altena may not ORKO them.

Also, I hope I do not offend you in asking this, but is english not your first language by chance? You seem to have a habit of making gramatical mistakes that can make your arguments confusing. I can still understand them, but they could use some polishing up is all I'm trying to say. That, or your really tired.

Edited by Blademaster!
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...Why would bosses be exceptions to attacking their own units? If enemies suicide on a berserk unit, it makes no sense for this rule to change if a berserked unit is the boss.

Bosses attack his enemies, but the enemies don't attack the boss. This means they don't suicide on the boss and only 5 enemies end up dead.

Yup, stated the same thing on the top of the last page, but it was ignored.

How long does the Berserk status last? Because if it only lasts for about 5 turns, your berserked boss probably wouldn't have finished off his whole army by that time. They usually travel in packs of 10-15 or so... His army won't begin attacking the boss just because the boss is berserk, you considered that, right?

AKA, the Berserk staff isn't doing much for efficiency at all, as you've stated earlier. The most a Berserk staff will do is potentially have the boss kill 5 of the enemies before he returns to normal. And the enemies don't retaliate back against the boss unit at all so you have a fully healed boss and 5 dead enemy units. All the time, the enemy continues to advance towards your army and ignore the boss in the process. The question is, are the turns spent avoiding the boss worth it?

IMO, charging into the enemy area while berserking the boss would make for a decent argument, yet your army will probably be able to demolish the grunts before the boss can, anyways. >_> And then, there's no guarantee that the boss will attack his own units.

Edited by Eltoshen
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Random fact: Levin!Corple at level 30 equipping Holsety has only 18 more AVO than level 30 Claude!Sety equipping Elwind. It becomes 24 if Sety's equipping Lightning. And Prayer too, I guess. But no Pursuit. Sylvia doesn't have it, does she?

Considering Ishtar pulls off 209 hit with THammer and her leadership bonus, she still has 65 hit on him after factoring in his 99 AVO, two Charismas (no Laylea when you have Corple), WTD and Celice's leadership bonus. Far too high considering he's not OHKOing her without Critical activating, and she herself has Continue. He has a 32% chance of Critical activating, and a 19% chance of Critical activating on a Continue. So he has a 55% chance of not killing her. Ishtar has a 12% chance of activating Continue and hitting him both times. A bad chance, but still a chance. The most that can be said for Corple is that he doesn't bring her down to below half if he doesn't activate Critical or Continue (33% chance), so someone else can finish her off without Ishtar's Ambush activating.

Edit: I forgot that Holsety gives +10 Skill, so I just changed my numbers a bit.

Edited by BigBangMeteor
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