FE4 Gen 2 list

[Salad Utensil]

Not all prepromotion Fees are similar. Claude!Fee only has pusuit. Levin!Fee has continue and critical. Additionally, Levin!Fee has better growths and bases in most stats reaching Claude!Fee's average lvl 30 spd at lvl 21. The +5 Str convo doesn't occur at the end of Chp 10. It occurs in the middle. That allows her to fight the dark mages and Alvis army. And with the +5 str convo bonus, the only non boss enemies Fee should have trouble one rounding are the Freege Barons and the Dark warlords.

Also, this isn't a Ranked run, and even if it was, you should never split your army in a way that it would be out of range of all of your healers. That is just using poor and risky strategy. There is no reason as to why your healers should be out of range of almost any unit.

Fee levin shouldn't be affected by the status stave wielding dark mages on the final chapter. Even without the barrier ring, she generally has enough resistance. And should she even be afflicted with sleep, who ever has the rest staff will still be able to heal both of them on one turn since your dancer is more likey to be near that person than Fee!Claude should she have the rest staff. Also, I think the AI is more likely to silence Fee!Levin should she be able to afflict a status on her since the AI is more programed to silence enemies who can use magic and will be affected by it. The reason why Altena doesn't ORKO certain dark mages is because Lances are heavy, and since they have no weapons, they have pretty good AS (even though they can't attack) so Altena may not ORKO them.

Also, I hope I do not offend you in asking this, but is english not your first language by chance? You seem to have a habit of making gramatical mistakes that can make your arguments confusing. I can still understand them, but they could use some polishing up is all I'm trying to say. That, or your really tired.

Prepromotion Fee needs hero lance to reliable 1RKO I thought it was accepted she always gets it passed down for more kills. If near 50 she also has critical. Hero lance has inherent continue. Sure you could switch to something else, but...suddenly you risk not 1RKOing

Why wouldn't they be? Your party is forced to split up some of the time. In the finale for example your high resistence units go to Edda and your low resistence units stay away unless they wanna fall asleep. I mean if you assume A rank in tactics which I consider to be the norm in efficiently finishing chapter which is just enough for you to carefully finish a chapter, you have to split up your team in some cases as well as have mounts rush past enemies and have foot units kill the said enemies.

I'm afraid this isn't true. Fee [Levn] averages 17 res. The sleep staffing High Priests have 22 magic. Fee [Claude] has 23 resistence.

@bold this is a problem with Fee [Levn] not Fee [Claude], does that mean you agree with me?

Altena has A swords she has 11AS with most lances and I think 15AS with slim lance, She has a 27 Strength cap she will reach and continue and critical, how does she not ORKO nonbosses (oh yeah she's asleep because your priests only have 5 move and can't reach her).

I'm not sure what to say about my grammatic errors except that I don't proofread my posts very much because it saves me time. I'm a chronic procrastinator and I post here to waste my time :P so I don't have to start homework. Taking 5 APs mean I shouldn't be procrastinating at all, but...

Edited October 10, 2009 by Brighton

[Blademaster!]

Not all prepromotion Fees are similar. Claude!Fee only has pusuit. Levin!Fee has continue and critical. Additionally, Levin!Fee has better growths and bases in most stats reaching Claude!Fee's average lvl 30 spd at lvl 21. The +5 Str convo doesn't occur at the end of Chp 10. It occurs in the middle. That allows her to fight the dark mages and Alvis army. And with the +5 str convo bonus, the only non boss enemies Fee should have trouble one rounding are the Freege Barons and the Dark warlords.

Also, this isn't a Ranked run, and even if it was, you should never split your army in a way that it would be out of range of all of your healers. That is just using poor and risky strategy. There is no reason as to why your healers should be out of range of almost any unit.

Fee levin shouldn't be affected by the status stave wielding dark mages on the final chapter. Even without the barrier ring, she generally has enough resistance. And should she even be afflicted with sleep, who ever has the rest staff will still be able to heal both of them on one turn since your dancer is more likey to be near that person than Fee!Claude should she have the rest staff. Also, I think the AI is more likely to silence Fee!Levin should she be able to afflict a status on her since the AI is more programed to silence enemies who can use magic and will be affected by it. The reason why Altena doesn't ORKO certain dark mages is because Lances are heavy, and since they have no weapons, they have pretty good AS (even though they can't attack) so Altena may not ORKO them.

Also, I hope I do not offend you in asking this, but is english not your first language by chance? You seem to have a habit of making gramatical mistakes that can make your arguments confusing. I can still understand them, but they could use some polishing up is all I'm trying to say. That, or your really tired.

Prepromotion Fee needs hero lance to reliable 1RKO I thought it was accepted she always gets it passed down for more kills. If near 50 she also has critical. Hero lance has inherent continue. Sure you could switch to something else, but...suddenly you risk not 1RKOing

Why wouldn't they be? Your party is forced to split up some of the time. In the finale for example your high resistence units go to Edda and your low resistence units stay away unless they wanna fall asleep. I mean if you assume A rank in tactics which I consider to be the norm in efficiently finishing chapter which is just enough for you to carefully finish a chapter, you have to split up your team in some cases as well as have mounts rush past enemies and have foot units kill the said enemies.

I'm afraid this isn't true. Fee [Levn] averages 17 res. The sleep staffing High Priests have 22 magic. Fee [Claude] has 23 resistence.

@bold this is a problem with Fee [Levn] not Fee [Claude], does that mean you agree with me?

Altena has A swords she has 11AS with most lances and I think 15AS with slim lance, She has a 27 Strength cap she will reach and continue and critical, how does she not ORKO nonbosses (oh yeah she's asleep because your priests only have 5 move and can't reach her).

I'm not sure what to say about my grammatic errors except that I don't proofread my posts very much because it saves me time. I'm a chronic procrastinator and I post here to waste my time :P so I don't have to start homework. Taking 5 APs mean I shouldn't be procrastinating at all, but...

I'm not talking about the high priests. I'm talking about the dark mages who have like, 16 mag. And I forgot Altena can use swords. My bad.

Just because your priests have 5 mov, doesn't mean they will be out of range when using a projectile staff. And the fact that Fee would have the rest staff sill means that you are killing the dark mages slower since she will have to revive Altena.

And at what you put in bold, Fee!Levin is more likely to be able to be afflicted by them than Fee!Claude, but it is still unlikely.

Also, although Fee!Claude will still be killing with the Hero Lance, she is still essentially stuck to it if whe wants to kill with it. What if I want to give her a projectile weapon so I don't have to risk putting her into close combat and taking damage?

[Dat Nick]

Random fact: Levin!Corple at level 30 equipping Holsety has only 18 more AVO than level 30 Claude!Sety equipping Elwind. It becomes 24 if Sety's equipping Lightning. And Prayer too, I guess. But no Pursuit. Sylvia doesn't have it, does she?

Considering Ishtar pulls off 209 hit with THammer and her leadership bonus, she still has 65 hit on him after factoring in his 99 AVO, two Charismas (no Laylea when you have Corple), WTD and Celice's leadership bonus. Far too high considering he's not OHKOing her without Critical activating, and she herself has Continue. He has a 32% chance of Critical activating, and a 19% chance of Critical activating on a Continue. So he has a 55% chance of not killing her. Ishtar has a 12% chance of activating Continue and hitting him both times. A bad chance, but still a chance. The most that can be said for Corple is that he doesn't bring her down to below half if he doesn't activate Critical or Continue (33% chance), so someone else can finish her off without Ishtar's Ambush activating.

Edit: I forgot that Holsety gives +10 Skill, so I just changed my numbers a bit.

in b4 Brighton tries to chuck LevinCorple the Pursuit Ring, too V_V

But yeah, LevinCorple is requiring ridiculous amounts of funds and favoritism to have unreliable offense and shitty move in final, IF he even gets that favoritism. ClaudeCorple is a no strings attached healer out of the box who doesn't need to be the most spoiled little shit since Paris Hilton to be a useful healer. LevinCorple is not notably better than other Corples. No Pursuit only means that it may be WORSE than other couples [At least AzelCorple can double with Elwind] Are we done with this? Excellent, because I'm sick of this one.

Regarding Berserk: Okay listen I'm tired of "he said she said" arguments. Nobody seems actually able to prove what Berserk does myself included and I'm not going to play through over 3/4ths of FE4 just to validate the point, so the only further discussion I want to see on the subject is a video demonstrating how a berserked boss's AI works.

Anyway, I see vulnerability to status staves a minor issue at best. You have the Restore staff. A unit getting sleep'd is simple to fix with it [You wake up unit, no time lost except a heal, and you have Corple by now so its a simple matter of Reserve if you needed to heal that badly anyway], so you might as well put the thing to use.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Regarding Berserk: Okay listen I'm tired of "he said she said" arguments. Nobody seems actually able to prove what Berserk does myself included and I'm not going to play through over 3/4ths of FE4 just to validate the point, so the only further discussion I want to see on the subject is a video demonstrating how a berserked boss's AI works.

Berserked unit will attack his/her army above most(if not all) else. Nowhere near as fun as FE5's Berserk unfortunately.

Edited October 10, 2009 by ?!

[Dat Nick]

Still, it looks like a permanent effect that needs to be restore staved to fix, so I could see it as useful for a boss weakening himself on his own troops and then getting picked off.

Likely not enough to remain above nonClaude Corples, though

[Renall]

But yeah, LevinCorple is requiring ridiculous amounts of funds and favoritism to have unreliable offense and shitty move in final, IF he even gets that favoritism. ClaudeCorple is a no strings attached healer out of the box who doesn't need to be the most spoiled little shit since Paris Hilton to be a useful healer. LevinCorple is not notably better than other Corples. No Pursuit only means that it may be WORSE than other couples [At least AzelCorple can double with Elwind] Are we done with this? Excellent, because I'm sick of this one.

So right, Corple [Levin] is slightly better than other Corples. That is what you said, isn't it?

How well does Corple [Claude] stand up against Ishtar? Poorly, you say? Well then, Corple [Levin] must be better! Hell, even if all he does is heal, having Holsety equipped to increase his defense makes him a better unit. And before promotion, it's essentially the same. It isn't like Reserve is going to be in pristine condition once Claude's done with it. Where exactly is he getting the repair money for it, again?

Regarding Berserk: Okay listen I'm tired of "he said she said" arguments. Nobody seems actually able to prove what Berserk does myself included and I'm not going to play through over 3/4ths of FE4 just to validate the point, so the only further discussion I want to see on the subject is a video demonstrating how a berserked boss's AI works.

In the scenario at about 1:20 on, Julius can only attack Ishtar (who can retaliate) OR any of five allied units, some of whom cannot. He will choose Ishtar every time. Berserked units always target their own troops. Always.

Anyway, I see vulnerability to status staves a minor issue at best. You have the Restore staff. A unit getting sleep'd is simple to fix with it [You wake up unit, no time lost except a heal, and you have Corple by now so its a simple matter of Reserve if you needed to heal that badly anyway], so you might as well put the thing to use.

You're correct, status vulnerability for the player is essentially irrelevant, and so is Berserk (aside from a few exploits using the sword).

[Dat Nick]

How well does Corple [Claude] stand up against Ishtar? Poorly, you say? Well then, Corple [Levin] must be better!

What the hell kind of logical conclusion is this? CorpleClaude is a healer with 1-10 range staves. He has no business being anywhere near Ishtar, so who gives a damn that he gets anally raped by her?

Hell, even if all he does is heal, having Holsety equipped to increase his defense makes him a better unit.

Reserve has 1-10 range so Corple has no business being targetted in the first place. His durability figures could be in the negatives and nobody would care still, because you're doing something wrong if Corple gets targetted, ever.

It isn't like Reserve is going to be in pristine condition once Claude's done with it. Where exactly is he getting the repair money for it, again?

It's perfectly okay for CorpleLevin to take well over 50k in funds for staff spamming, return rings to sell, and villages.

But it's a mortal sin of CorpleClaude doesn't even get a fraction of this favoritism.

Hey kids, let's play "Spot the inconsistency!"

[Renall]

It isn't like Reserve is going to be in pristine condition once Claude's done with it. Where exactly is he getting the repair money for it, again?

It's perfectly okay for CorpleLevin to take well over 50k in funds for staff spamming, return rings to sell, and villages.

But it's a mortal sin of CorpleClaude doesn't even get a fraction of this favoritism.

Hey kids, let's play "Spot the inconsistency!"

Um, I never said he needed any of that. You did. Play Corple [Levin] without any of the favoritism given to any other Corple. He's still just about as good.

And then he has better SPD and Holsety on promotion.

He is better. Even if marginally. You are the only one who is incapable of understanding this.

Saying "his durability doesn't matter because he's never close to the fighting" is a bullshit dodge. Calill's durability isn't irrelevant because "you can just have her spam Meteor!" No, we still compare durability there. It matters. Corple's durability with a holy weapon that gives him +20 SPD is better. Corple's offense with a 30 Mt holy weapon is better. His staff performance is nearly the same, and he levels at almost the same rate as any non-Lex Corple. And then you can, but do not have to, favor him with better results than other Corples because he at least sort of has a chance at being a combat unit. How is that not better?

Honestly, I'd rank them Levin > Lex > Claude if anything. And maybe Lex on top even, since Corple [Lex] is Sharlow - Berserk Staff (which doesn't matter) + existing DEF. And he can still use Reserve, if he can afford it. Starting without good staves might be enough to keep Levin on top though.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Renall

[BBM]

I honestly don't think Azel!Arthur should be in Upper Mid. He's basically Azel with Wrath. Wrath is good in the Arena, and to pick off one or two enemies, but you can't use it very much otherwise, because all Arthur will do is get hit, KO the enemy, and then get killed by the next enemy.

He has low movement, and promotes to get a horsie around Chapter 10, which is filled with Dark Mages he can't beat. And then in the final, he doesn't have a Holy weapon, and he can't heal either, so he's pretty much useless.

As great as Arthur is with Holsety, he's just not that good without it.

[Dat Nick]

Um, I never said he needed any of that.

Maybe you haven't, but it's been Brighton's argument since day one.

Saying "his durability doesn't matter because he's never close to the fighting" is a bullshit dodge.

No, it isn't. You know how Nils in Kinship's Bond dying in one hit shouldn't be a problem because he is NEVER going to be attacked if you play that chapter right?

It's exactly like that. So how is it a bullshit dodge? It's true.

He is better. Even if marginally. You are the only one who is incapable of understanding this.

It's not even marginally. Holsety NEEDS a skill activation to kill. Everybody else on the team that is worth a damn....has no excuse not to be ORKOing everything on the map, and they do it with more move. Corple's performance, Holsety or not, relative to the rest of the team, is shit. So who cares about access to Holsety?

Calill's durability isn't irrelevant because "you can just have her spam Meteor!" No, we still compare durability there. It matters.

Meteor has 5 uses, so of course you can't spam it. And?

Corple's durability with a holy weapon that gives him +20 SPD is better.

Wrong, Corple healing from long range has better durability. LevinCorple is not invincible unless his avo is high enough to block out any enemy's hit rates. And...it doesn't.

Corple's offense with a 30 Mt holy weapon is better.

Not eliminating the fact that it's awful relative to the rest of the team by Final.

favor him with better results than other Corples because he at least sort of has a chance at being a combat unit.

Except he doesn't. You can level him to 30 and he's still stuck with being unable to consistently ORKO shit unless he activates a skill. Everybody else can do it without a skill. This is not good combat, at all.

[Renall]

Um, I never said he needed any of that.

Maybe you haven't, but it's been Brighton's argument since day one.

I'm not your strawman Brighton, sorry.

Saying "his durability doesn't matter because he's never close to the fighting" is a bullshit dodge.

No, it isn't. You know how Nils in Kinship's Bond dying in one hit shouldn't be a problem because he is NEVER going to be attacked if you play that chapter right?

It's exactly like that. So how is it a bullshit dodge? It's true.

Corple could be attacked. And if he wanted to fight for some reason - he can use magic, after all - his durability would matter. If the player decides to use him offensively in the name of efficiency, they might be interested in seeing how well he can stand up to being put at risk.

He is better. Even if marginally. You are the only one who is incapable of understanding this.

It's not even marginally. Holsety NEEDS a skill activation to kill. Everybody else on the team that is worth a damn....has no excuse not to be ORKOing everything on the map, and they do it with more move. Corple's performance, Holsety or not, relative to the rest of the team, is shit. So who cares about access to Holsety?

He can severely weaken people. He can pick people off reliably (he won't generally miss). Here's some numbers for you to ignore because you don't play the game anyway:

Corple [Azel] at lv20 has Pursuit and Continue and, at best, Wind (using fire tomes would be stupid). That gives him 19 AS (Claude's Corple would have a meager 14), so he hits with ~34 Mt twice and Continues about 40% of the time on either hit.

Corple [Levin] at lv20 has Continue and Critical and a rather large SKL (~20 at this point), then you factor in kills with Holsety. His AS is 38, so he hits with 54 Mt once, has a close to 50% chance of Continue, and a better than one-third (and possibly as good as 40-50%) chance of a critical. And he's defensively better. Comparing Corples to Corples, his offense is anything but bad. And if he ever gets the Pursuit Ring (I am not saying he deserves it or realistically ever should be given it, but he can use it), he destroys any other Corple offensively.

Corple's durability with a holy weapon that gives him +20 SPD is better.

Wrong, Corple healing from long range has better durability. LevinCorple is not invincible unless his avo is high enough to block out any enemy's hit rates. And...it doesn't.

So Corple [Levin] can't heal from long range now too, yet also dodge better if he goes into combat range, making him a better Corple than those other Corples? Nice to know.

Corple's offense with a 30 Mt holy weapon is better.

Not eliminating the fact that it's awful relative to the rest of the team by Final.

You apparently have no idea what you're talking about. I'm talking about the best Corple. Not where Corple needs to be on the tier list. How good anyone whose name is not Corple is does not matter.

favor him with better results than other Corples because he at least sort of has a chance at being a combat unit.

Except he doesn't. You can level him to 30 and he's still stuck with being unable to consistently ORKO shit unless he activates a skill. Everybody else can do it without a skill. This is not good combat, at all.

"Everybody else" does not matter in tiering Corples within the set of units that are Corple. I don't give a flying fuck how good anyone else is, they don't matter here.

And there's no point in doing so right now as, in the current list, all Corples are adjacent to each other in the same tier. If we changed that, we might have to compare a Corple to another unit, but for now there is no benefit in doing so.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Renall

[Dat Nick]

Corple could be attacked.

Illustrate a reason Corple HAS for being attacked, don't just say "oh he can still get attacked" because I'm not under the impression there's any excuse for it.

He can severely weaken people. He can pick people off reliably (he won't generally miss). Here's some numbers for you to ignore because you don't play the game anyway:

Now who's the one bullshit dodging? He is reliant on skill activation to kill things. Everybody else is not. Thus, Corple's offense is bollocks to the rest of the team, the end.

Also it was just proven that Corple with Holsety cannot one round, how does that equate to me now playing the game?

So Corple [Levin] can't heal from long range now too

No because we already stuffed insane amounts of gold into him just to promote, why should he get even MORE? Didn't you just question ClaudeCorple getting 15k to repair his reserve?

"Everybody else" does not matter in tiering Corples within the set of units that are Corple. I don't give a flying fuck how good anyone else is, they don't matter here.

It DOES matter here. Devaluation of roles comes into play. Holsety Corple's combat is not impressing me because all it is is worse everybody else is doing now for a grand total of one chapter, and with 5 move he won't even use it that much. Since when was a combat unit comparable to Hannibal [Concrete durability instead of avoid, reliant on skill activation, same move, healing is the only difference] a good thing?

And this poor combat performance relative to the rest of the team is the only thing he has to say to Corple's access to free Reserve inheritance, ability to sell the Valkyrie staff [seriously, did anybody even think of this? I'll admit I don't know if you can actually do this because I don't have any FE4 save data on hand and I don't want to blaze through to Chapter 3 just to test something that might not even work]

And there's no point in doing so right now as, in the current list, all Corples are adjacent to each other in the same tier.

Half the reason I never listed LevinCorple in the first place.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Renall]

Corple could be attacked.

Illustrate a reason Corple HAS for being attacked, don't just say "oh he can still get attacked" because I'm not under the impression there's any excuse for it.

Because... we've never once ever said "oh, this person is a healer, therefore they will never get attacked and their durability is irrelevant." In any tier list. Ever. Laura fans will sure be glad to hear about this one!

He can severely weaken people. He can pick people off reliably (he won't generally miss). Here's some numbers for you to ignore because you don't play the game anyway:

Now who's the one bullshit dodging? He is reliant on skill activation to kill things. Everybody else is not. Thus, Corple's offense is bollocks to the rest of the team, the end.

The rest of the team is irrelevant to how Corple performs relative to other Corples. If you cannot understand this simple point, you are not worth debating with, because you have no clue what you're talking about and nothing will ever convince you of anything. You aren't allowed to bring the rest of the team into a comparison between Corple and himself. If we're debating Dorcas and Bartre, we do not say "Yeah well Dorcas isn't very good because he's not Athos." We weren't talking about Athos. And I wasn't talking about the rest of the team. If you bring up the rest of the team again, I will take it as a clear sign you do not actually want to debate individual Corples and just want to end the Corple argument without changing things based on what people have agreed and move on. I'll move on, but I'll also call the list bullshit.

Also it was just proven that Corple with Holsety cannot one round, how does that equate to me now playing the game?

He can one-round. Play the game sometime and maybe you can see even a "regular" Corple do it. Not always, but sometimes. And Corple [Levin] doesn't do it significantly worse than the other Corples do.

So Corple [Levin] can't heal from long range now too

No because we already stuffed insane amounts of gold into him just to promote, why should he get even MORE? Didn't you just question ClaudeCorple getting 15k to repair his reserve?

Sure I did. And it may or may not happen. But since when is Reserve his only long-range healing option?

"Everybody else" does not matter in tiering Corples within the set of units that are Corple. I don't give a flying fuck how good anyone else is, they don't matter here.

It DOES matter here. Devaluation of roles comes into play. Holsety Corple's combat is not impressing me because all it is is worse everybody else is doing now for a grand total of one chapter, and with 5 move he won't even use it that much. Since when was a combat unit comparable to Hannibal [Concrete durability instead of avoid, reliant on skill activation, same move, healing is the only difference] a good thing?

Now you're just making up nonsense. How good one Corple is relative to another Corple is wholly irrelevant to how good Corple is relative to everyone else, especially when the Corples are tiered so close to each other. I haven't fucking brought up "the team," stop bringing up irrelevant and meaningless arguments. This is not a "best pairings" or "best full setup" tier list. It is an individual tier list. And more to the point, the comparison is of versions of a single character. No other character's existence means anything here.

And this poor combat performance relative to the rest of the team is the only thing he has to say to Corple's access to free Reserve inheritance, ability to sell the Valkyrie staff [seriously, did anybody even think of this? I'll admit I don't know if you can actually do this because I don't have any FE4 save data on hand and I don't want to blaze through to Chapter 3 just to test something that might not even work]

Yeah maybe you should play the game. It would answer a lot of your questions, like what happens if you try to sell a legendary.

And there's no point in doing so right now as, in the current list, all Corples are adjacent to each other in the same tier.

Half the reason I never listed LevinCorple in the first place.

And we have asked that the Corples be spread out a bit because some of the pairings are worthwhile. But if you refuse to even consider it because of magic nonsense arguments that don't follow from anything, I guess I can't do anything about it since it's your topic.

[Dat Nick]

Because... we've never once ever said "oh, this person is a healer, therefore they will never get attacked and their durability is irrelevant." In any tier list. Ever. Laura fans will sure be glad to hear about this one!

Really? Laura could get access to 1-10 staves in part one? News to me!

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Corple doesn't get attacked because he's a healer, he doesn't get attacked because Fortify has 1-10 range, meaning he can stay far out of possible enemy contact range and still be useful.

You aren't allowed to bring the rest of the team into a comparison between Corple and himself.

That's just stupid. The rest of them are being fielded, aren't they? Furthermore, what is the basis for tiers? How units compare to one another. LevinCorple is performing poorly compared to the rest of the cast in his only win, combat, and that needs to be taken into account. See this for more data:

Devaluation of roles, et cetera

He can one-round.

wtf? You just proved he can't one round consistently without a pursuit ring, and somebody else proved it before you did. Not seeing what somebody ELSE is typing is one thing, but if you can't see what YOU'RE typing then I'm quite concerned. So your "omg you don't play the game" things aren't getting you anywhere because you have no basis for it. All I'm doing is following numbers. Following numbers YOU posted. Your arguments aren't even consistent with your own numbers anymore so I'm not sure why I'm continuing to take you seriously.

Not always, but sometimes. And Corple [Levin] doesn't do it significantly worse than the other Corples do.

Why did you even bring up the 15k for Reserve then? Either it's an issue or it isn't. lrn2consistency

This is not a "best pairings" or "best full setup" tier list.

Best team or not, you don't have much of an excuse to not be ORKOing by endgame. Unless you're really awful without favoritism like, Tristan or something.

Yeah maybe you should play the game. It would answer a lot of your questions, like what happens if you try to sell a legendary.

Again, please stop with this because you have no basis for it. Is it that hard to believe I haven't TRIED selling a legendary? Is it that hard to believe my computer crashed and I lost all my FE4 save data [all the way up to Endgame] and never once tried selling a holy weapon because, why the fuck would anybody do it? Is it that hard to believe I couldn't be assed to keep Hannibal alive and recruit Corple, the only reason I'd ever sell a goddamn legendary to begin with? Is it that hard to believe I can't be assed to play through to Chapter 3 just to test that shit? I said [i don't know if you can actually do it] in parentheses for a reason.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Salad Utensil]

This is MY FINAL attempt in this tier list to post. All I've been asking is to separate the Corple so worthwhile ones exist. If nothing changes I'll just realized my efforts were futile and this list is beyond hope due to the TC ignoring arguments. Don't you dare split up my quotes into smaller sections just so you can answer individual consistencies instead of actually answering the point.

@ Corple [Levn] favoritism is bad

Haven't I already proven that all forms of Corple are equal prepromotion, the only boon for Corple [Claude] is he inherits Reserve. You ignored my point how Corple can inherit the return ring from Levn, I'm not going to restate the full argument because you can just look it up yourself after ignoring it at least 12313 times. The differences in performance is only 5k (or at worst 15k) away (really only 1-2 villages+base $$ Corple starts near 6 villages). This really isn't much...

In case you haven't figured it out yet, Corple doesn't get attacked because he's a healer, he doesn't get attacked because Fortify has 1-10 range, meaning he can stay far out of possible enemy contact range and still be useful.

Corple has Libro, Corple sometimes does get attacked, you can't fiat the fact healers never get attacked, they do.

That's just stupid. The rest of them are being fielded, aren't they? Furthermore, what is the basis for tiers? How units compare to one another. LevinCorple is performing poorly compared to the rest of the cast in his only win, combat, and that needs to be taken into account. See this for more data:

Devaluation of roles, et cetera

You ignored that Corple [Claude] by that logic performs much more poorer as his promoted form is the same as his unpromoted form, yet Corple [Levn]'s promoted form has holsety.

wtf? You just proved he can't one round consistently without a pursuit ring, and somebody else proved it before you did. Not seeing what somebody ELSE is typing is one thing, but if you can't see what YOU'RE typing then I'm quite concerned. So your "omg you don't play the game" things aren't getting you anywhere because you have no basis for it. All I'm doing is following numbers. Following numbers YOU posted. Your arguments aren't even consistent with your own numbers anymore so I'm not sure why I'm continuing to take you seriously.

His numbers represent that sometimes he RKOs (~60% isn't bad) vs when Corple [Claude] never even 4RKOs

No offense, but given your user name its hard to take you seriously either, not to mention your arguments depend on attacking individual segments of arguments so they seem weaker. Yet you ignore the argument as a whole or draw a conclusion that doesn't compare Corple [Levn] to Corple [Claude]

Why did you even bring up the 15k for Reserve then? Either it's an issue or it isn't. lrn2consistency

Learn the definition of significantly. 15k isn't even significant if it takes 3 villages or 1 village and a ring inherited (return rings is optimal). Play the game a few more times and realized that it isn't

Best team or not, you don't have much of an excuse to not be ORKOing by endgame. Unless you're really awful without favoritism like, Tristan or something.

Corple [Levn] is the best he can do. Corple [Levn] might 1RKO so its his optimal pairing, yet all Corples never will. Prepromotion all corples are the same except for slight inheritance differences that can be remedied with 1-2 villages.

Again, please stop with this because you have no basis for it. Is it that hard to believe I haven't TRIED selling a legendary? Is it that hard to believe my computer crashed and I lost all my FE4 save data [all the way up to Endgame] and never once tried selling a holy weapon because, why the fuck would anybody do it? Is it that hard to believe I couldn't be assed to keep Hannibal alive and recruit Corple, the only reason I'd ever sell a goddamn legendary to begin with? Is it that hard to believe I can't be assed to play through to Chapter 3 just to test that shit? I said [i don't know if you can actually do it] in parentheses for a reason.

Sigh...I'm not sure what to say about this when you just admitted your limited knowledge about the mechanics of this game (granted I've made some mistakes too, like the critical rate hit damage with the Lex [Tinny] stuff, but...) I'm still arguing a lot about the mechanics of this game that you mess up (no offense).

All I can say is: that reread some of the arguments you misinterpret (similarities between all forms of corple except one is significantly better after promotion -> best corple). Play the game again to make fewer mechanical errors since you as the TC have the burden to use accurate information. Do what you want to the list as I've given up reusing the same points over and over again in order to answer the same points you've been using over and over again since you aren't really responding to them. I've wasted enough time...

[Paperblade]

I honestly don't think Azel!Arthur should be in Upper Mid. He's basically Azel with Wrath. Wrath is good in the Arena, and to pick off one or two enemies, but you can't use it very much otherwise, because all Arthur will do is get hit, KO the enemy, and then get killed by the next enemy.

He has low movement, and promotes to get a horsie around Chapter 10, which is filled with Dark Mages he can't beat. And then in the final, he doesn't have a Holy weapon, and he can't heal either, so he's pretty much useless.

As great as Arthur is with Holsety, he's just not that good without it.

AzelArthur starts out with a Wind tome, which gives him a huge advantage over Azel in AS/Avoid, on top of Wrath and Tordo blood making it much easier for him to Arena.

[Eltoshen]

My advice to you is to learn the game before you try to create a tier list for it. In all honesty, there's been way too many times where a little knowledge could spare you 5 pages of useless debating.

I'll give you leeway on the Berserk, since people generally don't use it for "efficient play" and rather just for fun. that, and even i wasn't clearly sure if the berserked unit would ever attack your units Though i don't know why you'd think this FE would be any different and that enemy units would attack the berserked boss.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

My advice to you is to learn the game before you try to create a tier list for it. In all honesty, there's been way too many times where a little knowledge could spare you 5 pages of useless debating.

I'll give you leeway on the Berserk, since people generally don't use it for "efficient play" and rather just for fun. that, and even i wasn't clearly sure if the berserked unit would ever attack your units Though i don't know why you'd think this FE would be any different and that enemy units would attack the berserked boss.

Because that's the case in FE5.

[BBM]

Arthur's AS isn't high enough to have a really amazing AVO even equipping Wind, because his class has the lowest Speed cap of all promoted classes, only 22. In this game, most people can kill one unit. The hard part is surviving the other 10 that come with that one unit. He also has 5 movement, and you didn't address that. You have to move slower every turn so he can keep up. And for what? What's so special about him? He doesn't have a holy Weapon, he can't heal, and he doesn't have awesome skills. He's just another unit. There's nothing special about him. There's nothing cool that only he can do. Yes, he's beating the Arena. He wouldn't even promote if he couldn't beat the Arena.

[Eltoshen]

FE5 strayed from a lot of things. But you have a point.

Also, Berserk status doesn't last forever. From a video I've seen:

it lasts only a few turns. I'm not sure if it's 6 since the video seems to be cut at certain points (looks like 6 turns, and 5 enemy phases to be exact).

Edited October 11, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Rodykitty]

Five turns is a long time.

[Blademaster!]

Arthur's AS isn't high enough to have a really amazing AVO even equipping Wind, because his class has the lowest Speed cap of all promoted classes, only 22. In this game, most people can kill one unit. The hard part is surviving the other 10 that come with that one unit. He also has 5 movement, and you didn't address that. You have to move slower every turn so he can keep up. And for what? What's so special about him? He doesn't have a holy Weapon, he can't heal, and he doesn't have awesome skills. He's just another unit. There's nothing special about him. There's nothing cool that only he can do. Yes, he's beating the Arena. He wouldn't even promote if he couldn't beat the Arena.

You have to move slower for Arthur!Levin to keep up to unless you give him the leg ring. What's special about Arthur!Azel is that he can use magic, and thanks to a high magic growth, he can use it fairly well. He's also the best candidate for Bolganone in GEN 2. He's a great unit.

[Dat Nick]

You ignored my point how Corple can inherit the return ring from Levn, I'm not going to restate the full argument because you can just look it up yourself after ignoring it at least 12313 times. The differences in performance is only 5k (or at worst 15k) away (really only 1-2 villages+base $$ Corple starts near 6 villages). This really isn't much...

Now, why can't ClaudeCorple inherit the ring? It's an extra 10 uses of Reserve that he doesn't have to buy the staff for.

And whoopee, 20k down. Too bad he needs 40k more.

Corple has Libro, Corple sometimes does get attacked, you can't fiat the fact healers never get attacked, they do.

Give me an example of HOW Corple with 1-10 range has any excuse being attacked. You can't say something with nothing supporting it and expect it to fly. It's like if I went on the H5 tier and said "Oh Zag and Wolf have a hard time getting kills" just like that. I've laid out the basis of why Corple's 1-10 range gives him a free pass on durability. You aren't doing anything except stating "But he can still get attacked!" without giving any reason as to WHY.

You ignored that Corple [Claude] by that logic performs much more poorer as his promoted form is the same as his unpromoted form, yet Corple [Levn]'s promoted form has holsety.

The entire point of me BRINGING UP the devaluation of roles is to illustrate that Holsety on Corple does virtually nothing at this point in the game because his offense compared to everybody else sucks even with it. Goddess, pay attention.

His numbers represent that sometimes he RKOs (~60% isn't bad)

Yes. Compared to units that ORKO 100% of the time, it IS bad. "But Claude Corple has worse offense!" I don't fucking care. Read this shit about Devaluation of Roles. There's a reason I posted a link to a perfect example of it.

Learn the definition of significantly. 15k isn't even significant if it takes 3 villages or 1 village and a ring inherited (return rings is optimal). Play the game a few more times and realized that it isn't

Not the point. Renall bought up 15k to repair the staff against Corple and he proceeds to label 15k as an insignificant figure throughout the rest of the debate. It doesn't take an Ace Attorney to see the contradiction.

Corple [Levn] is the best he can do. Corple [Levn] might 1RKO so its his optimal pairing, yet all Corples never will. Prepromotion all corples are the same except for slight inheritance differences that can be remedied with 1-2 villages.

Read. That. Link. I. Posted. About. Devaluation. Of. Roles.

My advice to you is to learn the game before you try to create a tier list for it. In all honesty, there's been way too many times where a little knowledge could spare you 5 pages of useless debating.

My advice to you is to give me fellatio.

I try to solve a problem like this maturely because I acknowledged it was going nowhere [the berserk staff shit] and this is what I get as a response? I guess that's what happens when I try to solve problems instead of carrying them on for your sake, Elty-kun.

Sigh...I'm not sure what to say about this when you just admitted your limited knowledge about the mechanics of this game (granted I've made some mistakes too, like the critical rate hit damage with the Lex [Tinny] stuff, but...) I'm still arguing a lot about the mechanics of this game that you mess up (no offense).

I wasn't aware that everybody tried to sell holy weapons in this game, you'll have to forgive me for not thinking that it would be logical to try to get Holsety out of my inventory for no good reason for spare change, of which Levin has already plenty of.

Honestly, is not bothering to recruit Corple, the only reasonable guinea pig for this, such a mortal sin?

All I can say is: that reread some of the arguments you misinterpret (similarities between all forms of corple except one is significantly better after promotion -> best corple).

I have not misinterpeted a goddamn thing. I'll tell you one last time, read what the hell I posted about devaluation of roles.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Paperblade]

Arthur's AS isn't high enough to have a really amazing AVO even equipping Wind, because his class has the lowest Speed cap of all promoted classes, only 22. In this game, most people can kill one unit. The hard part is surviving the other 10 that come with that one unit. He also has 5 movement, and you didn't address that. You have to move slower every turn so he can keep up. And for what? What's so special about him? He doesn't have a holy Weapon, he can't heal, and he doesn't have awesome skills. He's just another unit. There's nothing special about him. There's nothing cool that only he can do. Yes, he's beating the Arena. He wouldn't even promote if he couldn't beat the Arena.

You were bitching about Arthur being "basically Azel with Wrath", which I proved wrong because Arthur is actually going to promote before the final chapter of his generation, not how he stacked up versus the rest of the team.

Anyway, look at who's below him. Are you really suggesting that he's worse than a unit like Johan, who is basically worthless late game and isn't even very good early game? Or Julia, who's the same bloody thing only she NEVER gets a horse and disappears for 2 chapters? What about dear sister Tinny, who's like Julia but is missing for a different 2 chapters? Oh, what about Leaf, who's more difficult to level up because he can't kill or Arena as well? Patty's in the same boat as Leaf, only her promotion is less wtfhax.

He's already below pretty much everyone that has a holy weapon or can heal or has awesome skills. Hell, he's even below several who don't.

Who is Arthur even supposed to drop below?

Edited October 11, 2009 by Paperblade

[BBM]

I'd say Julia is slightly better. They both get 2HKOd, but she has Resire to heal herself. Due to her high MAG, as long as she doesn't get doubled, she'll probably do more damage than she takes. She's also invaluable against Dark Mages, because even if she doesn't ORKO them, she brings them to low health, so that someone else can finish them off. And unlike everyone else, she survives more than one hit due to Resire. She promotes into Sage, one of the best classes in the game. She might never get a horse, but she does still have 6 movement after promo. Plus, she can heal up to B Staves. Not sure if it really counts, but she gets a point for having the best chance to kill Julius.

Meh. I guess he can stay where he is, but Julia goes up.