FE4 Gen 2 list

[Dat Nick]

Does it matter?

Oh, does this involve having to wait for other characters to catch up to him, or what? Because, I could seriously care less for the other 1000 ways to kill her when the most efficient way is to use Arthur.

Sound familiar? Fix your paradox or this isn't worth continuing because you'll just keep changing your logic to find an argument to use.

ThunderMan EX (10:42:04 PM): Yes, I saw it

ThunderMan EX (10:42:19 PM): you're assuming that we have to 1RKO every enemy

ThunderMan EX (10:42:26 PM): as well as usin Steel Blade on him

ThunderMan EX (10:43:32 PM): due to canto they really don't need to stop

ThunderMan EX (10:43:46 PM): so, Delmud for example could weaken an enemy

ThunderMan EX (10:43:47 PM): move on

ThunderMan EX (10:43:52 PM): the next guy can kill him

ThunderMan EX (10:44:02 PM): I don't see Aless falling down quickly either

ThunderMan EX (10:44:20 PM): or Shanan taking on enough enemies to make his on paper durability lead actually relevant

ThunderMan EX (10:44:33 PM): unless you give him the leg ring

ph334tehrock (10:44:37 PM): actually I never said that

ph334tehrock (10:44:48 PM): I said that was a slight problem because Shanan DOES ORKO everything

ph334tehrock (10:44:53 PM): Furthermore

ph334tehrock (10:45:06 PM): THe main point against him there was durability

ThunderMan EX (10:45:29 PM): Aless is quite durable really

ph334tehrock (10:45:44 PM): 3-4RKOd is durable?

ThunderMan EX (10:45:54 PM): Terrain exists and so does avoid

ThunderMan EX (10:46:01 PM): Delmud and Nanna aren't too far from him

ph334tehrock (10:46:01 PM): His avoid is not that reliable

ph334tehrock (10:46:06 PM): 40 and hes usually facing WTD

ThunderMan EX (10:46:12 PM): then there's Ambush, Critical and Continue

ph334tehrock (10:46:20 PM): none of which help his durability

ThunderMan EX (10:46:24 PM): Oh?

ThunderMan EX (10:46:31 PM): Critical on an ambush

ThunderMan EX (10:46:40 PM): Continue on an Ambush

ThunderMan EX (10:46:48 PM): while using Misto

These were points I found far more relevant than being slightly better but still kind of meh on one boss. So changing.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Eltoshen]

How about, "Because, I could seriously care less for the other 1000 ways to kill her when the most efficient way is to use Aless (when people don't pair Tiltyu with Levin)."

Happy now? Seriously, you spend way too much time picking out the smallest things in posts, you lose the purpose of the thread.

How about answering the question, now?

[Dat Nick]

Happy now? Seriously, you spend way too much time picking out the smallest things in posts, you lose the purpose of the thread.

At least I remain consistent with my logic and don't go back on it when it hurts my case instead of helping it.

And okay, use Sety with Holsety instead if Arthur didn't get it. YOU happy now?

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Eltoshen]

This is getting annoying. You get too personal with your attacks.

I'll come back when the purpose of the thread isn't to rip apart minor inconsistencies in word choice.

And you still haven't answered my question, as expected.

Last note: If you perceive this thread as a topic where you can stroke your ego for pointing out flaws in another's statement, you aren't suited to running a tier list.

EDIT: Sety isn't around when we fight Ishtar in Chapter 8. You wonder why I didn't mention him?

Edited September 26, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Fei Mao]

(Nevermind)

Edited September 26, 2009 by Cyas

[Dat Nick]

You get too personal with your attacks.

I love you too, honey-bunny.

Anyway. It's probably true that Delmud probably does ORKO at least semi consistently, but with the sword twins having such an epic durability lead on him due to Elite/Higher durability growths, I'm having a difficult time seeing that>Mobility.

Last note: If you perceive this thread as a topic where you can stroke your ego for pointing out flaws in another's statement, you aren't suited to running a tier list.

why thank you

If you perceive this thread as a topic where you can weasel your way out of your own inconsistencies, you aren't suited to participating in a tier list.

Sety isn't around when we fight Ishtar in Chapter 8.

Except you were talking about Ishtar in Chapter 10.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Eltoshen]

Except, I wasn't. You assumed so, even though I said "Base Aless" which should've been a dead giveaway.

[Dat Nick]

Wasn't this whole debate based on how killing Julius in C10 makes you not have to fight Ishtar in the final?

Which it doesn't?

So yeah, you were talking about Ishtar in C10.

And even if you weren't, Aless does shitty against him anyway. He's left with 8 HP WITH Mistolteen which isn't enough to have him survive another attack even when healed...and this is ignoring the fact that Ishtar will target him at 2 range meaning she's a turn ahead. Oh, and what if Adept Activates?

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Eltoshen]

Oh, another point I'd like to make.

Base Aless can take a hit from Ishtar and survive. Shanan can't (even if you give him a few levels). Aless can actually kill Ishtar as well, with Critical. IIRC, I've always killed Ishtar with Aless. By the way, she has Ambush, which means Shanan won't even be able to react before being struck down.

If that isn't something that starts off a new discussion, I don't know what I'd have to state.

In red: If I was talking about Chapter 10, Shanan wouldn't have gained "a few levels". Unless you're totally ignoring my posts, you would've known which chapter I was referring to. But I assume that part may have slipped by when you were reading the post, which is understandable.

Does this help cease the misunderstanding?

Uh, what? I said he was the most efficient. Yes, it's clearly obvious Ishtar is a difficult opponent. The question is; who fairs best.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Dat Nick]

If that isn't something that starts off a new discussion, I don't know what I'd have to state.

K?

Aless sucks dick against her too so I have no idea what you're attempting to prove

It's like saying "Oh Roddlebon gets raped by this boss slightly less harder than Radnay does, so Roddlebon should fight this boss and it should actually mean something."

Uh, what? I said he was the most efficient. Yes, it's clearly obvious Ishtar is a difficult opponent. The question is; who fairs best.

Certainly not Aless.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Eltoshen]

Since you seem to believe so, I'd like to hear who you'd use, besides Arthur (whom I stated not everybody pairs Tiltyu and Levin).

I've asked countless times, yet you ignored the question presented and relentlessly hounded a misworded statement.

And changing a tier list due to an AIM convo when I stated pretty much the same exact thing in my first post regarding Aless > Shanan? What's up with that?

Edited September 26, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Dat Nick]

I haven't even attacked that statement in forever. I'll appreciate it if you actually attack things that come out of my mouth.

And I ask you, who cares? I've proven that neither Aless NOR Shanan is suited to fighting Ishtar. So it isn't a factor.

And changing a tier list due to an AIM convo when I stated pretty much the same exact thing in my first post regarding Aless > Shanan? What's up with that?

He actually provided ways around Aless's less than stellar durability. All you said was "but uh skillz"

Also, he didn't even bring up once this boss thing which is a hilariously minor point no matter who wins it. This could have been settled far sooner if you had focused on what actually mattered.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Eltoshen]

If Aless isn't suited to fight Ishtar, then nobody is, which you've just admitted (unless you pair Tiltyu and Levin--I swear, I feel inclined to include this in every post, thanks to you).

And Aless has a 32% critical chance. He ORKO's Ishtar when it activates, kthx. Even if it doesn't, Ishtar is still severely damaged.

I quote myself...

I was of the understanding that Mounted + Ambush + Critical made him a lot more useful than avoid, but whatever.

Yeah, because when I state it, it means nothing, but when others state the exact same thing, you make the change.

Here's my first post...

Aless over Shanan, maybe? I think Mistoltin > Balmunk just because Mistoltin gives critical and +20skill. That's a 32% chance to critical on base Aless. Plus, he has Ambush.

Another thing to consider is their movement. 8(or 9) movement vs. 6 and mounted units have the ability to move after attacking. Aless is probably the best character to solo large hoards of enemies with.

Am I missing something that makes Shanan higher than him? Shanan joins in the same chapter, so it's most likely not availability.

EDIT: eww, I can't believe I actually wrote "Shanam"

Edited September 26, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Dat Nick]

And Aless has a 32% critical chance. He ORKO's Ishtar, kthx.

Shanan has that same chance for Astra[more if he only gained 1 skill] and a 52% chance for Adept, so he ORKO's ishtar too, kthx.

Yeah, because when I state it, it means nothing, but when others state the exact same thing, you make the change.

"skills lol" does not cancel out his durability problem in itself.

THunderman proved how these skills DO help his durability problem.

Aless over Shanan, maybe? I think Mistoltin > Balmunk just because Mistoltin gives critical and +20skill. That's a 32% chance to critical on base Aless. Plus, he has Ambush.

Another thing to consider is their movement. 8(or 9) movement vs. 6 and mounted units have the ability to move after attacking. Aless is probably the best character to solo large hoards of enemies with.

Am I missing something that makes Shanan higher than him? Shanan joins in the same chapter, so it's most likely not availability.

EDIT: eww, I can't believe I actually wrote "Shanam"

yeah

I don't see Aless's poor durability accounted for once in there, nor do I see how those skills save him.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Germany

[Eltoshen]

And he wastes more money in the process, so I don't understand how in any way, that is considered more efficient: a point you still haven't refuted (even though you say you don't care).

I would assume a manager of a tier list would understand how skills work in the game they're tiering. If they need everything spelled out for them, then that's a problem.

yeah

I don't see Aless's poor durability accounted for once in there, nor do I see how those skills save him.

Yeah, because you don't seem to have proper knowledge of how those skills work. If you were able to piece two and two together, it'd be so much easier to get points across.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Kriemhild]

Look at it this way. What if you were to try checking whether Aless or Shanan is better against Alvis. Shanan is no longer invincible and Aless is no longer overkill. Such an argument would be completely pointless and null because AFAIK the most effective and possibly efficient way of beating Alvis is to use Celice with Tyrfing. I might not be correct though.

However, the situation with Ishtar is NOT the same. Because not everyone has access to Levin!Arthur. Even the good players might want to try out new pairings, or try an all subs playthrough, or something. You can NOT assume that Levin was paired with Tiltyu ESPECIALLY if it's for a Tier List that includes characters from OTHER PAIRINGS. Therefore, you MUST consider people who are playing through the game with different pairings. And when Levin is not paired with Tiltyu, I'm pretty sure Aless is the best option for taking care of Ishtar.

This is different from the Alvis case because Celice is always Celice. But here, Arthur may not necessarily be Levin!Arthur. So yeah, Aless definitely has a plus over Shanan when considering Ishtar.

[Dat Nick]

And he wastes more money in the process, so I don't understand how in any way, that is considered more efficient: a point you still haven't refuted (even though you say you don't care).

bawwwww 1000 gold

Oh wait, Shanan doesn't give a rat's ass about gold because he has that nifty fast love growth with Lakche. So he doesn't even care about THAT piddling sum. Let alone that he raeps the Arena with just an iron blade or some crummy weapon anyway.

Yeah, because you don't seem to have proper knowledge of how those skills work. If you were able to piece two and two together, it'd be so much easier to get points across.

Hell, since you didn't spell them out, you clearly did not understand how the skills actually helped him yourself.

I told you why nobody cares about those skills since Shanan's dodging and uber offense overrides them. You could have pressed the issue further. You didn't, you chose instead to get us caught up in this Ishtar shit.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

... This Ishtar discussion is ridiculous.

Anyway, thoughts on Midir!Lester vs Azel!Arthur? I can see the former above the latter.

[Eltoshen]

Oh wait, Shanan doesn't give a rat's ass about gold because he has that nifty fast love growth with Lakche. So he doesn't even care about THAT piddling sum. Let alone that he raeps the Arena with just an iron blade or some crummy weapon anyway.

When you transfer gold, you transfer all of it. Yes, leave Lakche with 0 gold when she needs that money to repair her equipment. Seems like faulty logic to me.

Hell, since you didn't spell them out, you clearly did not understand how the skills actually helped him yourself.

ROFL. Oh my god. I don't even know how to respond to this statement. As an avid user of Aless, you question me on not knowing how his skills work? You wouldn't assume that maybe the fact that I'm arguing for Aless is because I have plenty of experience using him? Sigh, I give up. It's hopeless. It'll spare everybody else of this Ishtar debate.

Edited September 26, 2009 by Eltoshen

[Dat Nick]

When you transfer gold, you transfer all of it. Yes, leave Lakche with 0 gold when she needs that money to repair her equipment. Seems like faulty logic to me.

No, you stop at 50k and the surplus is transferred to the giving unit. Lakche isn't getting 0 gold, and she can arena it back anyway.

ROFL. Oh my god. I don't even know how to respond to this statement. As an avid user of Aless, you question me on not knowing how his skills work? You wouldn't assume that maybe the fact that I'm arguing for Aless is because I have plenty of experience using him?

Well, you didn't, did you? You didn't know what the fuck to do when I pulled out the enemy stats back on post 28. Thunderman did. So I either question your "experience", or your ability to learn from it.

[Fei Mao]

... This Ishtar discussion is ridiculous.

Anyway, thoughts on Midir!Lester vs Azel!Arthur? I can see the former above the latter.

I agree with Midir!Lester over Azel!Arthur considering he can Canto after his range attack and has a hero bow passed down to him, even though Wrath is great it's quite risky.

[Dat Nick]

I concur, and the same should apply to Jamka!Lester.

[Eltoshen]

No, you stop at 50k and the surplus is transferred to the giving unit. Lakche isn't getting 0 gold, and she can arena it back anyway.

If Shanan has enough gold to repair his Balmung, why did you even mention it, then? I'm replying assuming he doesn't have enough money, which means all of Lakche's money will be transferred over, unless she has max gold and he has like 500 gold or something.

Well, you didn't, did you? You didn't know what the fuck to do when I pulled out the enemy stats back on post 28. Thunderman did. So I either question your "experience", or your ability to learn from it.

Trying to save face, now? I don't mind if you have to blame me for your own inexperience, since I'm not the one running the tier list, anyways.

[Dat Nick]

If Shanan has enough gold to repair his Balmung, why did you even mention it, then?

Funny, I recall you being the one bawwing about another weapon use.

Trying to save face, now? I don't mind if you have to blame me for your own inexperience, since I'm not the one running the tier list, anyways.

Your own "experience" with Aless failed to counter my argument back at page 2 when you could have ended it right there if all you did was use what you learned...and you did not. Unable to counter my post about how Aless is not that durable in C9, you went on and started this whole Ishtar shit. If your goal was misdirection to your own incompetence, congrats, it ALMOST worked. Almost being the operative word.

[grandjackal]

... This Ishtar discussion is ridiculous.

Anyway, thoughts on Midir!Lester vs Azel!Arthur? I can see the former above the latter.

I could agree to that.

Anyways, I just wanna say this. What is this Ishtar crap about now? Is this during the Lenster chapter? Did no one just think of warp staff? Ya know, just warp someone up there and do whatever? Hell, warp means that Shanan could just march towards Conote without a care in the world (enemies would be lucky to have hit on Shanan, while Mystoltin doesn't necessarily render Ares invincible, even to magic at times despite the huge-ass resistance bonus it gives).

If it's the chapter before last one, horsemen are probably all the way on the left side of the isles, while the foot soldiers are ready due to make their way north towards the uper areas to secure it prior to Celice showing up. If it's the final chapter, if we kileld Ishtar/Julius or whatever, we won't have to deal with her anyways. I'd suggest we'd do so regardless.