FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[CATS]

OK, but an efficiency tier list measures efficient play. I'm not advocating ignoring cost for something, but it's not always an easy yarnball to unravel. Caeda's Wing Spear costs a shitload of money, but she's also the only one who can do what she does, and it's seriously useful. You can't argue when comparing Xane to Caeda (yes, I know she stomps him, it's not the point) that Xane gets something of equal gold value when he shows up. The cost of a forge slot is negligible for him, but the impact of the gold might be different at his jointime, and the other side of the equation -- what he gets out of the forge in terms of gains for the army -- is definitely goign to be less than what Caeda did.

Yes, and the fact that it's seriously useful is reflected in the fact that she's still better than Chainey even when both are given forges. If you are doing a comparison where you assume that Unit A is using a 10000G forge while Unit B doesn't get any gold spent on them, then you are indeed eliminating opportunity cost regardless of the outcome of the comparison one way or the other.

I am all for equalizing these things where it's possible to do so. I don't see how flat-out giving Xane something gold-equal to something that someone got 10-15 chapters ago is actually equal in terms of real cost.

10-15 chapters ago is a different case since Chainey didn't exist then. I'm asking why it's okay for Shiida to have a forge and Chainey to have nothing after Chainey joins.

[Interceptor]

I was going to respond to Int here, but after a short talk on IRC, I've decided that I'm done with tier lists on both SF and FEG. I'll leave something I posted to Red Fox on FEFF on the subject of Int/Narga:

I hope you don't mind me taking the last word, since you got the first one, with that boot in my face about FE9.

You have a lot of complaints about being buried under tl;drs, dismissive attitudes, killing discussion, etc, but I don't see you doing anything about it other than grousing. You're blaming Narga and myself for stagnant lists, but it's really hard to take this seriously when the only thing you do about it is to titter in the clubhouse with your bros. How hard would it really be to make a new list (this forum has two!), and lay down some ground rules to shape the discussion in the direction you want it to go?

I don't agree with you, but at least have the courage of your convictions.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yes, and the fact that it's seriously useful is reflected in the fact that she's still better than Chainey even when both are given forges. If you are doing a comparison where you assume that Unit A is using a 10000G forge while Unit B doesn't get any gold spent on them, then you are indeed eliminating opportunity cost regardless of the outcome of the comparison one way or the other.

Okay, how about this:

unit A: Gains 20 from act X, act X prevents other units from doing Y. At best, Y leads to 10 for any other unit. Unit A gains 10 total.

unit B: Gains 10 from act Z. Act Z prevents act W. W yields 12 at best for some unit C. Unit B gets -2. Why should I saddle unit B with -2 when I could just leave unit B without that stupid -2?

Hence, unit A gets X, but unit B does not get Z. Why? It doesn't help him.

10-15 chapters ago is a different case since Chainey didn't exist then. I'm asking why it's okay for Shiida to have a forge and Chainey to have nothing after Chainey joins.

Ever consider those 10 to 15 chapters are part of why it's okay for Shiida to get one? Now, if you were to ask why she can get, say, a wyrmslayer forge later on so that she can ORKO the things only she has the speed to double with the wyrmslayer, then that's different. Either one could get it. Of course, problem here is that you'd need to have a swordmaster Shiida with no real point of existing since if she's not blicking things with a wyrmslayer she might as well be a draco. But still, at least then you are making the forges at approximately the same time so you have to choose who gets it.

That wing spear from earlier has already been created, and I already explained why it is far more logical and efficient to let Caeda keep it than to give it to Chainey. She's able to use it more often (no transform thing) and if Chainey is only going to do what Caeda can do anyway, might as well get exp for it with Caeda, eh?

This isn't fe9 Titania where nobody can do what she does. If you had Titania in fe9 and another unit with exactly her base stats and growths and availability but had paragon, which would you be using? (I'd say she's level 10 not promoted, but part of Titania is being able to use both axes and lances, so oh well.) The point would be stronger if I could make the difference in exp gain even greater, but what can I do?

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Yes, and the fact that it's seriously useful is reflected in the fact that she's still better than Chainey even when both are given forges. If you are doing a comparison where you assume that Unit A is using a 10000G forge while Unit B doesn't get any gold spent on them, then you are indeed eliminating opportunity cost regardless of the outcome of the comparison one way or the other.

10-15 chapters ago is a different case since Chainey didn't exist then. I'm asking why it's okay for Shiida to have a forge and Chainey to have nothing after Chainey joins.

I don't know any other way to explain that a forge for Xane may be an albatross that he doesn't want. What forge(s) are you going to give him? It's not sufficient to say "anything", since you can build any army around him that you want, and go for whatever is optimal for his performance.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Interceptor

[CATS]

Okay, how about this:

unit A: Gains 20 from act X, act X prevents other units from doing Y. At best, Y leads to 10 for any other unit. Unit A gains 10 total.

unit B: Gains 10 from act Z. Act Z prevents act W. W yields 12 at best for some unit C. Unit B gets -2. Why should I saddle unit B with -2 when I could just leave unit B without that stupid -2?

Hence, unit A gets X, but unit B does not get Z. Why? It doesn't help him.

First of all, they're not different actions. We're talking about the same thing. It's like unit A gains 20 and unit B gains 15 or 10 or something.

The difference is reflected in the fact that unit A will have a stronger case after applying the resource to both units. If you give it to unit A only and assume that unit B gets nothing, then you are vastly inflating the difference and ignoring opportunity cost. It's like if unit A gains 20 and unit B gains 15, by giving it to unit A and denying it to unit B, the results of the comparison will make it seem as if the difference between their use of the resource is -20 instead of the reality that it's only -5.

I don't know any other way to explain that a forge for Xane may be an albatross that he doesn't want. What forge(s) are you going to give him? It's not sufficient to say "anything", since you can build any army around him that you want, and go for whatever is optimal for his performance.

The obvious answer is to give whatever you're giving the unit he copies to optimize their performance. If Barst is using a +5 Mt hand axe to ORKO javelin enemies from range or something, then give the same thing to Chainey Copying Barst. etc. I'm not sure what the optimal use of Chainey is; but giving him forges in general obviously makes him better and comparisons shouldn't be done as if he can't use them.

[Colonel M]

Uh, I do not agree with Interceptor on everything. I still disagree with Mia > Titania, for example.

[Narga_Rocks]

Uh, I do not agree with Interceptor on everything. I still disagree with Mia > Titania, for example.

And I think you may still disagree on Mia > Gatrie as well. However, as near as I could tell you seemed to agree with Mia > Zihark. Not sure what you think on Mia > Nailah. If you only think Mia should move one or two positions, that isn't really a huge disagreement. If you think Mia should drop by like 8 or something, that's an entirely different matter. Given all the arguments on gamefaqs way back, I'm pretty confident in saying that at one point in time Paperblade believed Zihark > Mia. And given how difficult it was to get Mia into high tier, I'd also say it's possible he thinks Mia doesn't even deserve high tier in fe10. That's very different from your disagreement. Whether he still holds those opinions I don't know, but he certainly disagrees with Mia's position much more strongly than you do.

First of all, they're not different actions. We're talking about the same thing. It's like unit A gains 20 and unit B gains 15 or 10 or something.

The difference is reflected in the fact that unit A will have a stronger case after applying the resource to both units. If you give it to unit A only and assume that unit B gets nothing, then you are vastly inflating the difference and ignoring opportunity cost. It's like if unit A gains 20 and unit B gains 15, by giving it to unit A and denying it to unit B, the results of the comparison will make it seem as if the difference between their use of the resource is -20 instead of the reality that it's only -5.

Did ya miss how I subtracted from unit A's forge? You know, how I said she got 20 and the next best was like 10? Hence, her economic profit is 10, not 20? Why are you suggesting I'm comparing -20? Oh, right, anti-Int. We make a few statements and people think we ignore opportunity cost even though in general we are the ones trying to enforce opportunity cost.

Anyway, do you seriously think that the gains from giving Caeda the forge way early = the gains from giving the forge to Chainey later on? Sure seems like that.

First of all, they're not different actions. We're talking about the same thing.

How in the hell is it the same thing? These are at two entirely different points in the game and in Chainey's case there already is a unit going around with an epic wing spear. How can you possibly think it's the same thing?

It should be abundantly clear that Chainey does not get anywhere near the same normal profit. The other question is the opportunity cost. Given the times during the game, it is possible that there is a higher opportunity cost for Caeda to get hers. After all, you have to delay forging for Barst and co. by one chapter. Is there that kind of cost later on? Int himself said it's mostly the money and not the one forge per chapter at this point. So maybe the equation becomes 20 - 12 and 10 - 10. So 8 vs. 0. If that's the case, he still doesn't get a forge because there is no gain. If, on the other hand, it's like 20-12 and 10-8, then he actually gets +2 so there is some point in giving him a forge. Just not very much point. You seem to think, what, 20 and 15? So are you suggesting it's like 30 - 10 and 25 - 10? Or 30 - 10 and 23 - 8 or something? I find it rather difficult to believe that the second flying wing spear user is somehow so close in utility to the first one. Have you even pointed out cases where 2 helps much? Is there like, a time where it's good to send Caeda one way, Chainey another way (where he only needs to be for 4 turns), and your army another way? Because remember, if there are only two fronts needed, or if the army is fully capable of winning in 3 different areas, there is no point of Chainey doing it at all (more exp and your other units do things just as quickly anyway so there is no fe9 Titania gain that makes it worth the loss in exp.)

Now, you've brought up how replaceable the mid tiers are. Well, if Chainey is fully replaceable, and so are they, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the ones that are at least capable of doing stuff longer are better?

[Colonel M]

And I think you may still disagree on Mia > Gatrie as well. However, as near as I could tell you seemed to agree with Mia > Zihark. Not sure what you think on Mia > Nailah. If you only think Mia should move one or two positions, that isn't really a huge disagreement. If you think Mia should drop by like 8 or something, that's an entirely different matter. Given all the arguments on gamefaqs way back, I'm pretty confident in saying that at one point in time Paperblade believed Zihark > Mia. And given how difficult it was to get Mia into high tier, I'd also say it's possible he thinks Mia doesn't even deserve high tier in fe10. That's very different from your disagreement. Whether he still holds those opinions I don't know, but he certainly disagrees with Mia's position much more strongly than you do.

I buy a bit more of the argument with Mia's forge (to be honest everyone wants it). The Ike support is "eh", but there was still Oscar too.

No, I don't believe that Mia should shoot down 2309483098 positions myself. I think Interceptor has proved it more than enough that Mia can be a good combat unit. It comes at a cost, but really who the hell wants Adept? Ike ORKOes Bejebus and whoever doesn't double shouldn't get it.

I disagreed to Mia > Gatrie at first, and to be honest my gut still kind of does. Even so, I can't deny Gatrie's troubles with doubling later in the game. Giving him a Speedwing probably helps him a lot, but a 31 Spd cap puts him in trouble. He needs to bump into Resolve range to get doubling action, which can be difficult since Gatrie actually has durability. It's easier to slap Resolve on frailer units that can dodge, like Zihark, and just keeping his supports near him. Or it's even easier to use Resolve on a Laguz as it's easy to setup and one Laguz Gem / Stone completes the set. Then again, in Part IV Gatrie's only real trouble doubling is the spirits, which can be averted with Nasir near you. Sucks that he can't double Order Incarnate's without Brave Lance, so about 4-E-4 to 4-E-5 his usefulness stops.

I guess it's worth a second comparison IMO, but I doubt Gatrie will win.

[Narga_Rocks]

No, I don't believe that Mia should shoot down 2309483098 positions myself

btw, I wasn't exaggerating when I said 8. In Smash's case, for example, it's actually more than 8 slots down that he's got her at in his tier list.

[Colonel M]

btw, I wasn't exaggerating when I said 8. In Smash's case, for example, it's actually more than 8 slots down that he's got her at in his tier list.

Well, I believe you know what I mean as well. I wouldn't shoot Mia down 8 slots for some grudge or because we aren't assuming a forge on her.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, I believe you know what I mean as well. I wouldn't shoot Mia down 8 slots for some grudge or because we aren't assuming a forge on her.

Oh, I know what you mean. Sorry if it looked like I didn't.

[Colonel M]

Oh, I know what you mean. Sorry if it looked like I didn't.

No worries. I could've misinterpreted you.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Colonel M

[CATS]

How in the hell is it the same thing? These are at two entirely different points in the game and in Chainey's case there already is a unit going around with an epic wing spear. How can you possibly think it's the same thing?

No, I already said earlier in the game is a different issue since obviously Chainey doesn't exist then. I'm talking about after Chainey joins.

Now, you've brought up how replaceable the mid tiers are. Well, if Chainey is fully replaceable, and so are they, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the ones that are at least capable of doing stuff longer are better?

This depends on whether Chainey is entirely replaceable or not, i.e. whether or not he actually has no positive utility whatsoever after his jointime (assuming no warpskip ofcourse since then yeah he might as well not exist). I think that's questionable, but it's a more difficult argument to make so I won't really bother with it.

If you think Unit A > Unit B simply for existing longer, then you're using a gross system mindset. Under that condition, yes, Unit A with a 16 chapter availability advantage > Unit B ofcourse regardless of how shitty Unit A might be. If this is your argument, then it's a separate issue and one of the underlying standards of the tier list.

This remains entirely aside from my original point, since my original argument went under the assumption that availability was not a significacnt point here. Let's say you have a unit that joins at the same time as Chainey with the same level and stats as whatever a trained Navarre would have. Is this unit's performance worthy of a tier gap in his favor over Chainey?

[Colonel M]

Why does this remind me of the bullshit with Cain and Hardin.

Brb, arguing Hardin > Cain and Abel.

[CATS]

That's another good example of someone defeating my argument by not addressing the actual point being made, though in that case it wasn't just Interceptor.

[Narga_Rocks]

No, I already said earlier in the game is a different issue since obviously Chainey doesn't exist then. I'm talking about after Chainey joins.

But she's not getting a forge when he joins. At least, not a wing spear forge. Maybe a wyrmslayer, but again: what's the point of making Caeda a swordmaster for a chapter if Chainey's the one doing the specialty killing? She'd be much better off as a draco if she's not mamkute/wyvern killing. There's no real point in him getting that forge, unless you want to make two at this point for no apparent reason. Is there reason enough to have two high speed units going around with forged wyrmslayers? Besides, he's not competing with Caeda/Barst/Sedgar. That's obvious. He's comparing with the mid tiers for the moment, which of course brings into question whether it is helpful at all to give him a forge, so Caeda getting that wyrmslayer and Chainey not kinda makes sense at that point. Besides, you were saying that Caeda gets an $x forge, so why shouldn't Chainey get an $x forge. Which indicates to me you are equating things that are happening 10 to 15 chapters apart.

This depends on whether Chainey is entirely replaceable or not, i.e. whether or not he actually has no positive utility whatsoever after his jointime (assuming no warpskip ofcourse since then yeah he might as well not exist). I think that's questionable, but it's a more difficult argument to make so I won't really bother with it.

no worries.

If you think Unit A > Unit B simply for existing longer, then you're using a gross system mindset. Under that condition, yes, Unit A with a 16 chapter availability advantage > Unit B ofcourse regardless of how shitty Unit A might be. If this is your argument, then it's a separate issue and one of the underlying standards of the tier list.

If unit A and unit B both have 0 utility, or equally negative, then might as well give it to the one with availability. I suppose if you are adding up negatives along the way you could get -1 x 20 vs -1 x 10, but really it's kinda harsh if you are punishing for availability.

If unit A has even a little positive utility along the way? Yeah, it's easily possible for unit A > unit B even if unit B is a bit better later on. 1 x 20 vs. 1.5 x 10. 20 > 15.

If unit A isn't very good you get into the question of how do you determine whether a unit gets credit for anything and have to start judging if the unit can in fact get credit for anything along the way. However, it is certainly easier to win if you have availability on your side. It should never be harder, since that unit has more time to contribute. More time existing means more time to build positive (if you can).

This remains entirely aside from my original point, since my original argument went under the assumption that availability was not a significacnt point here. Let's say you have a unit that joins at the same time as Chainey with the same level and stats as whatever a trained Navarre would have. Is this unit's performance worthy of a tier gap in his favor over Chainey?

If availability is meaningless, then the better unit when they compare directly matters. However, I should think that availability does matter here, so being slightly worse (if he even is) when both are present wouldn't mean auto-fail.

For the record, I don't really know if the tier gap itself is justified. It probably depends on how you play. If Sedgar and Wolf weaken everything on enemy phase for the other units except what Caeda and Barst go around ORKOing, then it seems that Chainey copying any of those 4 doesn't actually mean all that much. Or at least, his utility is significantly less than a "second ***". Like, not 20 vs. 15, but 10 vs. 1 or something harsh like that (20-10 and 11-10, or 15-5 and 6-5).

[CATS]

If unit A isn't very good you get into the question of how do you determine whether a unit gets credit for anything and have to start judging if the unit can in fact get credit for anything along the way. However, it is certainly easier to win if you have availability on your side. It should never be harder, since that unit has more time to contribute. More time existing means more time to build positive (if you can).

I agree it should never be harder for a unit when they have more availability, which is why I'm not saying that Navarre should get punished for sucking earlier or something, although in Chainey's case I think resource consumption could be a valid point. Chainey requires no Master Seal and no experience or deployment slot earlier in the game to achieve his performance. Chainey's Team can use a better unit than Navarre earlier in the game, or focus Navarre's experience/resources on other units, then pick up Chainey with no loss earlier. Navarre's Team has to field and train Navarre to get him to the performance that he would have when Chainey joins. Ofcourse if it's true that Chainey has no positive net utility anyways, then it doesn't really matter, but meh.

But she's not getting a forge when he joins. At least, not a wing spear forge. Maybe a wyrmslayer, but again: what's the point of making Caeda a swordmaster for a chapter if Chainey's the one doing the specialty killing? She'd be much better off as a draco if she's not mamkute/wyvern killing. There's no real point in him getting that forge, unless you want to make two at this point for no apparent reason. Is there reason enough to have two high speed units going around with forged wyrmslayers? Besides, he's not competing with Caeda/Barst/Sedgar. That's obvious. He's comparing with the mid tiers for the moment, which of course brings into question whether it is helpful at all to give him a forge, so Caeda getting that wyrmslayer and Chainey not kinda makes sense at that point. Besides, you were saying that Caeda gets an $x forge, so why shouldn't Chainey get an $x forge. Which indicates to me you are equating things that are happening 10 to 15 chapters apart.

I didn't realize you were talking about earlier in the game. I thought the argument was that Shiida is running around with a forged Wing Spear while Chainey gets nothing even after Chainey joins, and that's what I was protesting.

For the record, I don't really know if the tier gap itself is justified. It probably depends on how you play. If Sedgar and Wolf weaken everything on enemy phase for the other units except what Caeda and Barst go around ORKOing, then it seems that Chainey copying any of those 4 doesn't actually mean all that much. Or at least, his utility is significantly less than a "second ***". Like, not 20 vs. 15, but 10 vs. 1 or something harsh like that (20-10 and 11-10, or 15-5 and 6-5).

He'd still be a better weakener than Navarre during turns where he's not having transformation issues, so I don't really see the relevance.

Edited February 15, 2010 by CATS

[Colonel M]

That's another good example of someone defeating my argument by not addressing the actual point being made, though in that case it wasn't just Interceptor.

I addressed your actual point. In fact, I said "Cain's earlygame" barely mattered in the Warpless. It really doesn't.

Oh yeah, did I forget to mention Hardin can freely reclass too? His ranks give him the capability of doing so without a major penalty.

[CATS]

No, you didn't. You posted why Cain is worse than other fighters before Hardin joins and why Hardin is better than Cain for several chapters after Cain joins. You completely failed at actually addressing the logic used to show that Cain's contribution in several earlier chapters > Hardin's slightly superior contribution in the next few chapters.

What's he going to reclass to? Archer? lol. Myrmidon? lol, and Cain has his sword rank anyways. Mage/Cleric? Yeah, have fun not getting any Str on your levels. By promotion Cain also has a high lance rank.

Edited February 15, 2010 by CATS

[Colonel M]

No, you didn't. You posted why Cain is worse than other fighters before Hardin joins and why Hardin is better than Cain for several chapters after Cain joins. You completely failed at actually addressing the logic used to show that Cain's contribution in several earlier chapters > Hardin's slightly superior contribution in the next few chapters.

Several? Try 4 chapters. You also failed to prove the latter anyhow.

What's he going to reclass to? Archer? lol. Myrmidon? lol, and Cain has his sword rank anyways. Mage/Cleric? Yeah, have fun not getting any Str on your levels. By promotion Cain also has a high lance rank.

Maybe you should watch my videos. And yes, he can actually reclass to an Archer in 7 despite me not doing so in the video.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

Isn't Hardin's Str growth a bit iffy? I'd stay with whatever class gives him the most Str, which I believe is Cav/Pally.

[Narga_Rocks]

I didn't realize you were talking about earlier in the game. I thought the argument was that Shiida is running around with a forged Wing Spear while Chainey gets nothing even after Chainey joins, and that's what I was protesting.

The only thing I'm saying is that since her wing spear was created at a different point in the game,

utility for shiida from getting forge does not equal the utility from Chainey getting his

opportunity cost for hers does not equal opportunity cost for his

economic profit for hers does not equal economic profit for his.

(edit: fixed really bad typo)

I think we are actually okay on this point from some of your other points, though we do seem to greatly disagree on the magnitude of the difference.

He'd still be a better weakener than Navarre during turns where he's not having transformation issues, so I don't really see the relevance.

I was just suggesting Navarre (unless he's using effective damage) is one of the cleaners, along with what Chainey would likely get relegated to. Sure, Chainey would be better at weakening things than Navarre. After all, he can copy Sedgar. But you have Sedgar.

One of the most annoying things with Chainey would be that his best use while transformed would be going somewhere away from the unit he is copying. So his best utility should come from doing stuff on the other side of the map from what he copies, and yet if he wants to keep copying said unit he has to remain close. But how often do you need 2 Sedgars side by side? Just use one and he gets more exp. It might be great if you could give up 1 turn and then for the rest of the map he can go to any random corner and be Sedgar (provided you benefit a lot by having a Sedgar in that second location). But he can't. At least, not unless you are able to have them be incredibly useful in different locations and then join up again 4 turns later. Or if there is something else good to copy in whatever is in the group following Chainey!Sedgar. And then have them split up. All this, by the way, adds to the difficulty in forging for Chainey. Two Shiidas flying side by side isn't actually all that great a deal.

Edited February 15, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[CATS]

The only thing I'm saying is that since her wing spear was created at a different point in the game,

utility for shiida from getting forge does not equal the utility from Chainey getting his

opportunity cost for hers does not equal opportunity cost for his

economic profit for hers does not equal economic profit for his.

(edit: fixed really bad typo)

Sure. I never said Chainey is improved by a forged Wing Spear by a larger margin than Shiida is. I just think the fact that he can indeed utilize such a weapon needed to be acknowledged.

I was just suggesting Navarre (unless he's using effective damage) is one of the cleaners, along with what Chainey would likely get relegated to. Sure, Chainey would be better at weakening things than Navarre. After all, he can copy Sedgar. But you have Sedgar.

Then Chainey could copy a superior "cleaning" unit and be a better cleaner than Navarre, w/e. The point is that you can have a statistically superior combat unit from using Chainey in almost any role that you want to.

"But you have Sedgar?" So what? As if the law of diminishing returns doesn't apply to Navarre aswell?

Several? Try 4 chapters. You also failed to prove the latter anyhow.

Yes, 4. What, do you think several implies 10 or something?

Failed in your opinion, sure. You never gave a relevant response to the actual line of reasoning posed, rather you proved facts which were openly accepted already by my argument and pretended that somehow that debunked my logic. You decided to quit responding after 2 or 3 exchanges and go ask other people to weigh in, and a large portion of my last post never received a response iirc.

I also noticed Mekkah stating that my argument assumed that "Hardin has to be better than Cain for the rest of the game in order to make up for Cain's earlygame utility" or something else completely non-representative and inaccurate. Mekkah's not stupid so I'm assuming he wouldn't come to this conclusion if he actually read the topic, leading me to suspect that someone went on IRC or somewhere else off-site and severely misrepresented my case, causing Mekkah to only skim the topic and then make that post.

Edited February 15, 2010 by CATS

[Rodykitty]

Isn't Hardin's Str growth a bit iffy? I'd stay with whatever class gives him the most Str, which I believe is Cav/Pally.

Look at his averages compared to Kain/Abel.

And Hardin is one of the few units that can afford to go Swordfighter for 6x and C9 for both short term and long term benefits, to pump Speed growth for a couple of levels, and some Sword WEXP. He starts with B Lances, not needing to worry about the temporary change in a game where Lance level is crucial for those that have it as their main weapon.

Also, Chainey's tier position isn't going to change as a result of this discussion.

[Tino]

As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with an FE7 tier list. Go continue this discussion somewhere else.