Candlejack Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Doesn't Gamefaqs think Nino is one of the best characters in the game, and consider Marcus gutter trash? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Doesn't Gamefaqs think Nino is one of the best characters in the game, and consider Marcus gutter trash? You realize the tier list I posted was the one we made at GameFAQs, right? The "lololol ghebbattaglasspwn lickwallace'shead" group shouldn't represent GameFAQs here at all. At least, not in the tier topics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 They are on GameFAQs. We don't assume a character is used the whole game just because they're being compared to someone who does. We assume a character is used for as long as they're good, then we drop them and compare their usefulness to other character's. Dorcas is so high for this reason; he has a monstrously useful early game, but sucks late game. He gets dropped, but still remains high because he helped so much in the hardest part of the game that he was worth more than characters who might get used a little longer. This doesn't really refute anything I said about unit slots but okay. And yes, Dorcas is indeed cool for earlygame utility, but is it worth that much? I'm not sold on him>Geitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 This doesn't really refute anything I said about unit slots but okay. You said unit slots don't matter. Characters get dropped as soon as they don't earn a unit slot on our list. We essentially only compare characters in the time frame they're used instead of assuming they're used the entire game when comparing them. And yes, Dorcas is indeed cool for earlygame utility, but is it worth that much? I'm not sold on him>Geitz Well, early game without Marcus abuse is hell. Dorcas' usefulness increases greatly when you can't spam Marcus. Geitz comes around the start of late game when the game is considerably easier. Once your units start to promote, he gets outclassed quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) You said unit slots don't matter. Characters get dropped as soon as they don't earn a unit slot on our list. We essentially only compare characters in the time frame they're used instead of assuming they're used the entire game when comparing them. I didn't say they don't matter, I said they don't really fly as an argument unless in really extreme cases. I.e you aren't fielding Nino because she takes a unit slot, you don't field her because she sucks, and nobody in their right mind will argue Karla>Hawkeye on the premise that Karla doesn't use a unit slot, assuming Karla was forced into Final. Hector being forced and Eliwood not? That's a good example of when not using a unit slot should come into play. early game without Marcus abuse is hell. Dorcas' usefulness increases greatly when you can't spam Marcus. Exactly how much is Marcus use restricted though? I'd imagine he'd still see a fair amount of use, he's not raping your EXP rank with Iron Sword softening [Of course the combat rank, but I'm not sure how much leeway you get with that.] Edited October 13, 2009 by Athena's Chest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fei Mao Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Considering this is ranked, I think Eliwood and Lyn might be a bit high considering that their promotion hurts the funds rank, as in they cost more then the regular knight crest,guiding ring etc. If we were to promote all the lords we might have to limit the other characters promotion, unless if i'm mistaken and their contribution to the EXP rank, outweighs the funds they take? Edited October 13, 2009 by Generic Officer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I didn't say they don't matter, I said they don't really fly as an argument unless in really extreme cases. I.e you aren't fielding Nino because she takes a unit slot, you don't field her because she sucks, and nobody in their right mind will argue Karla>Hawkeye on the premise that Karla doesn't use a unit slot, assuming Karla was forced into Final. Hector being forced and Eliwood not? That's a good example of when not using a unit slot should come into play. Well, Nino is assured use just because she contributes so much to the EXP rank in a short amount of time anyway :P. When you HAVE to be in a chapter no matter what like Hector, it's hard to give him a value. Nobody compares to him. Exactly how much is Marcus use restricted though? I'd imagine he'd still see a fair amount of use, he's not raping your EXP rank with Iron Sword softening [Of course the combat rank, but I'm not sure how much leeway you get with that.] Marcus USE isn't restricted. Marcus abuse is. Your other units should be doing most of the attacking and killing early on to maximize EXP gains. Marcus is good for holding choke points, rescue strategies, taking out key units and just being an overall beast. He can't blitz through a chapter like in your tier lists though, or he'll hurt your chances of S ranking. Considering this is ranked, I think Eliwood and Lyn might be a bit high considering that their promotion hurts the funds rank, as in they cost more then the regular knight crest,guiding ring etc. If we were to promote all the lords we might have to limit the other characters promotion, unless if i'm mistaken and their contribution to the EXP rank, outweighs the funds they take? They're tricky. Their prf weapons save them from a crappy early game thanks to Cavs and Knights being everywhere, but they promote late and cost more than normal to do it. On the other hand, they're forced into a few chapters and you need to use them to get the best route. They also have extremely fast supports with other good units. I could see Eliwood moving down to upper mid as well though. Edited October 13, 2009 by Moribalken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Guy may be the "strongest" in FE7 thanks to Killer weapons and an increased critical rate, but he's not the most reliable of units. For example, Raven can be a great equal in terms of offense assuming he uses Killer weapons. Anyone can. Guy doesn't deserve to be in Top tier. 30% Strength growth? Laughable. It's simply not enough to keep up with the enemies later on in the game. Guy needs to critical to kill anything when he gets past Ch20. Even with a double 80% critical chance, it's still not as reliable as someone like Raven who can kill with or without a critical, where players don't have to worry about having supports nearby, what weapon is being used, and any other factors in which Guy needs for maximum efficiency. Guy is near crap without his supports and Killer weapons. Many other units, even Florina, are something, even without supports and Killer weapons and whatever else is needed to make Guy good. Eugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 It's somewhat counter-intuitive anyway. The biggest bitch in ranking this game is the experience rank (even when I did a no-Tactics ranked run, meaning I tried to 5-star everything without bothering with Tactics, I still ended up with 1 star in Experience. And I even used Nino), and promoted staff users get half the experience for staff use, so it could be argued that Priscilla still helps more since she contributes more to that on top of having +1 move to promoted Serra. If you don't give Serra all the LHM leveling, they provide roughly the same to experience but Priscilla has her ever-too-obvious advantages. It pretty much comes out to Lyn mode, which we assume is S ranked for the White Gem. Serra has a big level lead from healing every turn, so she promotes sooner and thus starts attacking before her. But that's my problem. Experience is by far the hardest rank to get 5 stars in, and promoting Serra will result in getting less staff experience, and therefore it could be argued Priscilla is still doing better because she's helping the tougher rank while still maintaining +1 move for more reliable healing. And some of her supports might actually happen in a reasonable amount of time. And how in hell does Serra heal every turn in LHM? The enemies there are piss easy and there aren't even that many of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Guy may be the "strongest" in FE7 thanks to Killer weapons and an increased critical rate, but he's not the most reliable of units. For example, Raven can be a great equal in terms of offense assuming he uses Killer weapons. Anyone can. Raven can't equal his offense. Guy's crit lead is huge. Guy doesn't deserve to be in Top tier. 30% Strength growth? Laughable. His average strength gives him all the attack he needs. It's simply not enough to keep up with the enemies later on in the game. Guy needs to critical to kill anything when he gets past Ch20. Even with a double 80% critical chance, it's still not as reliable as someone like Raven who can kill with or without a critical, where players don't have to worry about having supports nearby, what weapon is being used, and any other factors in which Guy needs for maximum efficiency. Guy is near crap without his supports and Killer weapons. Many other units, even Florina, are something, even without supports and Killer weapons and whatever else is needed to make Guy good. Eugh. Guy keeps up with the enemies just fine, like I proved earlier in the topic. Guy is able to match Raven's offense no matter how much you want to spin it. Even if you take his Matt support away for chapters Matt can't come or needs to go reeeeally off path, Guy will be able to consistently match and often beat Raven's 1 range offense. Of course, Matt will very rarely need to go so far off path that Guy can't go with him. In fact, you often escort Matt with a group to treasure because it's guarded. 86% crit is EXTREMELY reliable. He will literally crit once per round 98.6% of the time. Those aren't even made up numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Guy may be the "strongest" in FE7 thanks to Killer weapons and an increased critical rate, but he's not the most reliable of units. For example, Raven can be a great equal in terms of offense assuming he uses Killer weapons. Anyone can. Raven can't equal his offense. Guy's crit lead is huge. Guy doesn't deserve to be in Top tier. 30% Strength growth? Laughable. His average strength gives him all the attack he needs. It's simply not enough to keep up with the enemies later on in the game. Guy needs to critical to kill anything when he gets past Ch20. Even with a double 80% critical chance, it's still not as reliable as someone like Raven who can kill with or without a critical, where players don't have to worry about having supports nearby, what weapon is being used, and any other factors in which Guy needs for maximum efficiency. Guy is near crap without his supports and Killer weapons. Many other units, even Florina, are something, even without supports and Killer weapons and whatever else is needed to make Guy good. Eugh. Guy keeps up with the enemies just fine, like I proved earlier in the topic. Guy is able to match Raven's offense no matter how much you want to spin it. Even if you take his Matt support away for chapters Matt can't come or needs to go reeeeally off path, Guy will be able to consistently match and often beat Raven's 1 range offense. Of course, Matt will very rarely need to go so far off path that Guy can't go with him. In fact, you often escort Matt with a group to treasure because it's guarded. 86% crit is EXTREMELY reliable. He will literally crit once per round 98.6% of the time. Those aren't even made up numbers. What are these numbers worth if he has to follow a thief around the place while he goes around his pillaging job? What are they worth if Raven can ORKO even without a critical, something Guy needs supports and the right weapon for? Guy may look good on paper, but on the field, he's hindered by what he needs to be strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) But that's my problem. Experience is by far the hardest rank to get 5 stars in, and promoting Serra will result in getting less staff experience, and therefore it could be argued Priscilla is still doing better because she's helping the tougher rank while still maintaining +1 move for more reliable healing. And some of her supports might actually happen in a reasonable amount of time. Because Bishops get a huge boost in EXP gain. Serra will gain EXP MUCH quicker by attacking as a Bishop. Valkyries also get this boost. Priscilla definitely has better supports though; Erk and Guy are awesome supports. Erk is super fast and Guy starts early with great boosts. And how in hell does Serra heal every turn in LHM? The enemies there are piss easy and there aren't even that many of them. You bare minimum S rank Tactics. You heal no matter how much HP they need. HP gain from a level up, counter, Nils, etc. What are these numbers worth if he has to follow a thief around the place while he goes around his pillaging job? What are they worth if Raven can ORKO even without a critical, something Guy needs supports and the right weapon for?Guy may look good on paper, but on the field, he's hindered by what he needs to be strong. He doesn't need to follow the thief most of the time. The only time he needs Matthew in range is against the toughest enemies (bosses). He'll have less raw attack than Raven, but his crit (71 without Matt in range) more than makes up for it. 71 crit is still very reliable and he'll still crit once per round on average. If I remember right, you need 64 crit or so to crit once on average. Raven and Guy are very even against all 1 range randoms. Guy just wins against the toughest of tough. Anyway, I need to go for the night. I'll be back tomorrow to reply to you guys. Take care. Edited October 13, 2009 by Moribalken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 To those who debate Serra Vs. Priscilla, let me answer this simply: Serra is Serra. Priscilla is Serra on a horse. Simple, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanger Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Fa thinks Priscilla better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 To those who debate Serra Vs. Priscilla, let me answer this simply: Serra is Serra. Priscilla is Serra on a horse. Simple, right? Priscilla is Priscilla. Serra is Priscilla on foot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dat Nick Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Lowen>Kent and Sain on the Efficiency list. Any reason why it is unso here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 To those who debate Serra Vs. Priscilla, let me answer this simply: Serra is Serra. Priscilla is Serra on a horse. Simple, right? Priscilla is Priscilla. Serra is Priscilla on foot. Ergo, Serra has less MOV than Priscilla and cannot get to people fast enough to heal. Prissy can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Lowen>Kent and Sain on the Efficiency list. Any reason why it is unso here? Not arguing for Lowen here, but I'd guess he's more balanced than Sain and Kent. I don't care much for the cavaliers, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 To those who debate Serra Vs. Priscilla, let me answer this simply: Serra is Serra. Priscilla is Serra on a horse. Simple, right? Priscilla is Priscilla. Serra is Priscilla on foot. Ergo, Serra has less MOV than Priscilla and cannot get to people fast enough to heal. Prissy can. I'm confused. You was arguing for Priscilla>Serra? In that case, I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanger Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Fa thought Lowen is average on everything except defense Edited October 13, 2009 by Fa! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Come to think of it, the only truly SHITTY Troubadour is L'arachel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanger Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Fa wants to know why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candlejack Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Because she comes horribly underleveled on either route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) Indeed. Not to mention quite late. And by that time, either Moulder or Natasha are on respectable levels. Edited October 13, 2009 by Raven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanger Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) . Edited October 18, 2009 by Nagi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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