FE7 tier list, HHM Ranked

[_____]

Who cares...? I'm comparing Rath to Bartre, why wouldn't I be fielding Bartre?

[Sol Hiryu]

Uh, did you miss the part where dondon said realistic supports? Dorcas might not be able to grab anybody else but Bartre, considering they're both forced earlygame. Why the hell are you bringing Dorcas into a comparison between Rath and Bartre anyway?

Again, Dart's probably going to fall to near bottom because they're no way you're using the Ocean Seal on him, so there goes most of his use. As for Rath, it becomes a question of whether or not he'll be able to kill anything once he joins up, compared to Bartre.

[dondon151]

Rath doesn't want to promote early. You're missing out on the extra EXP.

Rath getting swords doesn't help him by an incredible margin anyway. He still can't counter enemies from 1-2 range.

[_____]

Rath doesn't want to promote early. You're missing out on the extra EXP.

Rath getting swords doesn't help him by an incredible margin anyway. He still can't counter enemies from 1-2 range.

I'd say that having an enemy phase earlier helps a bit more, but having Rath be unpromoted in that comparison just helps Bartre out even more.

[Candlejack]

Rath doesn't want to promote early. You're missing out on the extra EXP.

Rath getting swords doesn't help him by an incredible margin anyway. He still can't counter enemies from 1-2 range.

With swords, he can.

Does he do it well? Hell no.

I also feel sort of bad for Dart. He's the only Pirate in the game who gets his own Promo item and somebody DOESN'T want to use it.

Uh, did you miss the part where dondon said realistic supports? Dorcas might not be able to grab anybody else but Bartre, considering they're both forced earlygame. Why the hell are you bringing Dorcas into a comparison between Rath and Bartre anyway?

Trying to get across you wouldn't use Bartre ANYWAY because he's outclassed by Dorcas. Same with Rath and Warrior Dorcas of Geitz.

I have to feel bad for the Orion Bolt. Nobody wants to use it except on some mediocre green haired archer. :C

[Florete]

Rath doesn't want to promote early. You're missing out on the extra EXP.

Rath getting swords doesn't help him by an incredible margin anyway. He still can't counter enemies from 1-2 range.

I'd say that having an enemy phase earlier helps a bit more, but having Rath be unpromoted in that comparison just helps Bartre out even more.

Remember that this is ranked, where experience gain is actually very significant.

[dondon151]

With swords, he can.

Does he do it well? Hell no.

Why does Rath care about an enemy phase when lots of other units do it better?

2-range doesn't mean a unit is auto failure, and given Rath's circumstances it would be more helpful to his cause if he didn't promote at 10/0. You'd be using 10k of your funds and losing out 1000 potential EXP, and Rath's increased attacking opportunities won't make up for that difference. But anyway, Ninji's right; Rath probably isn't going above Bartre whatever way you look at it.

Trying to get across you wouldn't use Bartre ANYWAY because he's outclassed by Dorcas. Same with Rath and Warrior Dorcas of Geitz.

This assumption defeats the purpose of tiering characters. Please escort it out of this topic.

[Tangerine]

Oh, the one I posted earlier wasn't the most recent one, though there isn't many changes anyway.

-Top-

Matthew

Ninian/Nils

Raven

Guy

Serra

-High-

Priscilla

Oswin

Hector

Sain

Kent

Erk

Lowen

Marcus

Pent

Harken

Eliwood

-Upper Mid-

Florina

Lucius

Dorcas

Geitz

Legault

Lyn

Fiora

Hawkeye

-Lower Mid-

Vaida

Jaffar

Canas

Isadora

Rebecca

Rath

-Low-

Bartre

Heath

Karel

Dart

Louise

Wil

Renault

-Bottom-

Nino

Farina

Wallace

Karla

We did the Bartre and Sain/Kent/Lowen thing before, so there's no need to get into those again :P.

This assumption defeats the purpose of tiering characters. Please escort it out of this topic.

Not at all. I disagree with Bartre not being used at all (he'd be at bottom of bottom if that were true), but he isn't going to be used for long either. Assuming a bad unit is used for the entire game just doesn't make sense. Comparing characters when they're good enough to be used makes much more sense. For example, Raven is going to be good the entire game, so he'll most likely be used the entire game. Bartre is going to be good for the first few chapters, then he's going to suck. So it should be chapter 2-6 Bartre vs chapter 19+ Raven. Bartre's gonna get dropped soon, Raven isn't.

Bartre WOULD be bottom of bottom if we assumed he was used the entire game. That's taking up much better units' slots for such a long time that no amount of good he does will make up for it. You're just hurting your ranks by using Bartre that long.

For the record, pretty much anyone from top to upper mid can be used the entire game (except Dorcas) and not really hurt anything thanks to the enemies being pretty terrible. I wouldn't hurt Harken for taking Raven's spot late game, for example.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Moribalken

[dondon151]

Not at all. I disagree with Bartre not being used at all (he'd be at bottom of bottom if that were true), but he isn't going to be used for long either. Assuming a bad unit is used for the entire game just doesn't make sense. Comparing characters when they're good enough to be used makes much more sense. For example, Raven is going to be good the entire game, so he'll most likely be used the entire game. Bartre is going to be good for the first few chapters, then he's going to suck. So it should be chapter 2-6 Bartre vs chapter 19+ Raven. Bartre's gonna get dropped soon, Raven isn't.

OK, then let's see:

Bartre > Rebecca, because neither will be used past their forced periods (opportunity cost of a unit slot exceeds returns), and Bartre's forced period is superior to Rebecca's.

Dart down to bottom. He won't be used outside of his joining chapter, as his prepromotion performance is rather underwhelming and the cost of promotion is huge. Again, opportunity cost of a unit slot exceeds returns.

Wil down to bottom for the same reason, except his promo item doesn't cost as much, but using an Orion Bolt on him means we could have used another promotion item on another unit for a better allocation of funds.

Heath and Rath down to bottom or low, because they will never be used outside of their joining chapters (Heath is outclassed, Rath is outclassed once Louise comes along).

Karel to bottom because he prevents Harken from being recruited.

Canas down a couple of tiers for the same reason as like everyone else above.

Everyone else on this forum is familiar with my position on this.

[Tangerine]

Bartre > Rebecca, because neither will be used past their forced periods (opportunity cost of a unit slot exceeds returns), and Bartre's forced period is superior to Rebecca's.

I agree with this, actually.

Dart down to bottom. He won't be used outside of his joining chapter, as his prepromotion performance is rather underwhelming and the cost of promotion is huge. Again, opportunity cost of a unit slot exceeds returns.

Dart is a good choice as an EXP sponge for a little later on. He has enough base speed to avoid being doubled by the common enemies like Cavs and Axe users.

Wil down to bottom for the same reason, except his promo item doesn't cost as much, but using an Orion Bolt on him means we could have used another promotion item on another unit for a better allocation of funds.

Wil is forced for one chapter, which automatically gives him more contribution than people in bottom <_<. Renault sucks in his forced chapter too. I think Nino needs to move up more, if anything. Wil is also a decent EXP sponge thanks to 2 range.

Heath and Rath down to bottom or low, because they will never be used outside of their joining chapters (Heath is outclassed, Rath is outclassed once Louise comes along).

Heath and Rath come underleveled. Their use as EXP sponges shouldn't even need to be said. Whether or not they're worth promoting after their EXP sponging is up in the air.

Karel to bottom because he prevents Harken from being recruited.

Well, this is tricky. I dunno what I think about Karel yet. I don't think he's bad enough for bottom though, even if Harken can't be recruited if you get him. What Karel can't do that Harken can should determine his placement.

Canas down a couple of tiers for the same reason as like everyone else above.

I think Canas is useful enough to warrant being lame when he joins. Promoting him early helps him not suck, though it hurts the exp rank.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Moribalken

[BBM]

If we penalize Karel for denying us Harken, we have to penalize Harken for denying us Karel. That just brings them both down unnecessarily. Sure, denying us Harken is more severe than denying us Karel, but I'd say Wo Dao > Brave Sword. My opinion. It depends on the characters you're using. Guy or Lyn would like that Wo Dao. A number of units would like the Brave Sword. Just take out cost.

I hope no one brings up Cyas versus Sety. >_> I still think Cyas should have somehow come with FFlame. They would have been closer to each other, even if Sety would still be better.

Canas is fine where he is. He's the only one besides Athos who can use Dark magic. Luna is awesome in this game. Eclipse has crap accuracy, but it's good on the rare occasion it hits.

[Tangerine]

If we penalize Karel for denying us Harken, we have to penalize Harken for denying us Karel. That just brings them both down unnecessarily. Sure, denying us Harken is more severe than denying us Karel

Harken is better than Karel. Harken shouldn't be penalized for being better than someone else.

but I'd say Wo Dao > Brave Sword. My opinion. It depends on the characters you're using. Guy or Lyn would like that Wo Dao. A number of units would like the Brave Sword. Just take out cost.

Guy is the only one who would prefer the Wo Dao. Wo Dao for Guy is an assured 6x damage. Brave Sword is better for everyone else, even if they lose AS.

I'm also not entirely sure I like the idea of using net gains on the tier list. It isn't something I came up with; it really limits the amount of comparison you can do between characters.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Moribalken

[Dat Nick]

If we penalize Karel for denying us Harken, we have to penalize Harken for denying us Karel.

The thing is we don't particularly care if we don't get Karel. He's just a swordmaster locked to 1 range with crap durability, big whoop. I do however disagree with Karel being that low. Blocking Harken should account for something [Especially on this mode where the brave sword is all important funding] but it shouldn't account for that much. Below fuckin Wil? Come on.

It's like in FEDS. Nobody cares that Samson blocks out Arran because Arran is nearly as bad as Est. Similarly Samson's a pretty poor unit himself so nobody really cares that Arran blocks out him.

A number of units would like the Brave Sword. Just take out cost.

It's about the funds rank, not the brave sword itself.

edit: wait

why is there a tier difference between Farina and Dart

Dart fucks up the funds rank more than twice as much as Farina does [50k>>>>>20k, plus Farina's cost is slightly reduced by her inventory] and I certainly can't see Dart's SLIGHTLY better combat outweighing this.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Tangerine]

why is there a tier difference between Farina and Dart

Dart fucks up the funds rank more than twice as much as Farina does [50k>>>>>20k, plus Farina's cost is slightly reduced by her inventory] and I certainly can't see Dart's SLIGHTLY better combat outweighing this.

We just recently adopted the "net gain" system. We're still not sure how to place units based on it, whether we should even bother USING the system or if it accurately represents a character's usefulness. The net gain system will make the best units better and the units worse than them even worse. This gives you the best idea of who you should use on a HHM ranked run, but it makes the characters that aren't as good as them look worse than they really are.

[Florete]

why is there a tier difference between Farina and Dart

Dart fucks up the funds rank more than twice as much as Farina does [50k>>>>>20k, plus Farina's cost is slightly reduced by her inventory] and I certainly can't see Dart's SLIGHTLY better combat outweighing this.

Dart can still contribute 1200 experience to the experience rank without costing anything except weapons. For her to exist, Farina costs at least 20k. And when you add in her promotion, she actually costs 30k.

[Raven]

Guy is the only one who would prefer the Wo Dao. Wo Dao for Guy is an assured 6x damage. Brave Sword is better for everyone else, even if they lose AS.

It would only be assured if the crit was at 100%. The crit will never reach 100% for Guy, and so it is most definitely not an assured 6x damage. The chances of 6x damage are indeed high, but not assured, as you say it is. 6x damage is overkill against the majority of the enemies at any rate, although Guy needs it because of his rubbish Str growth.

I do however agree with what you're saying about Guy being the one to benefit the most from the Wo Dao, and everyone else benefiting more from the Brave Sword. Even if Guy was in use, I'd still attempt to recruit Harken, as he is a better unit than Karel and will actually get used.

[Geriba]

Hey there! I'm both a Serenes lurker and a GameFAQs FE7 regular, and since Moribalken has decided to hop on over here, I figured I'd follow suit.

A little bit of background: contrary to popular belief, the fad-starting perverts with which the GFaqs FE boards are normally associated do not represent those of us who play Fire Emblem seriously. In fact, we've had consistent and productive Tier List discussion since the game's release almost six years ago. I'd like to think that our current list is the most definitive one available, especially considering how far we've come. The list itself is mostly finished, with only a few minor blemishes in need of wrinkling out; now it's simply a matter of defending it and seeing how well it holds up. Any input on the list, then, is much appreciated, since it allows us to gauge how successful our efforts have been.

Since it's been brought up, allow me to elaborate upon the "net gain" system. Intuitively, the idea's been present in the minds of many since day 1- that you can't compare units in a vacuum. Just because Unit A and Unit B are both being used doesn't mean that they're also guaranteed unit slots, promotion items, etc. free of charge. Rather, using a more comprehensive, opportunity-cost system yields a more accurate result. This wasn't formalized until recently, because... we honestly haven't needed it until recently. Debates like Guy/Raven and Lowen/Kent/Sain have proven close enough to warrant these additional measures of quality, making a unit's performance less "gross" and more "net". Hence the name. However, one can't take this principle to the extreme. If net benefit is the sole determinant of unit quality, then all characters will inevitably be lumped under the headings of Always Used, Sometimes Used, and Never Used; not particularly helpful! So, this system is always CONSIDERED as a factor, but is never taken to a logical extremity unless the variance in unit performance is marginal enough to warrant it. At least, that's the current train of thought.

Anyway, this is some great discussion so far, and I hope you guys like having me on board! If you have any questions about why we've made certain decisions on the list, feel free to ask.

[Dat Nick]

A little bit of background: contrary to popular belief, the fad-starting perverts with which the GFaqs FE boards are normally associated do not represent those of us who play Fire Emblem seriously.

Please don't worry about that any more, we're past that.

In fact, I can offer testimony reinforcing this.

[Rodykitty]

Me and Athena's Chest are both from GFAQs. FE11 H5's tier list actually originated from GFAQs before it got moved here.

I think like at least half of the people that debate FE tiers come from GFAQs.

[dondon151]

We've had this opportunity cost debacle already (at least regarding unit slots), but I won't bother to post what I think because I'm outnumbered in this topic. Majority wins!

[Candlejack]

I still can't take GFaqs seriously.

That's just me, though.

And I don't think Canas should go ANYWHERE below where he is right now. He's a decent mage and has the all-mighty Anima affinity.

[Tangerine]

A little bit of background: contrary to popular belief, the fad-starting perverts with which the GFaqs FE boards are normally associated do not represent those of us who play Fire Emblem seriously.

But not too seriously, right :P?

I still can't take GFaqs seriously.

I don't see what the difference is between Serenes and GameFAQs. GameFAQs may have a reputation for housing less-than mature posters, but you can't honestly tell me Serenes has no troublemakers of its own. Even then, brushing Jaffar and I off just because we're from GameFAQs is pretty ignorant, especially when I think we've shown that we have little in common with the types you're relating us to. Internet message board segregation is a joke.

[dondon151]

Hawkeye, Vaida need to move down.

Hawkeye's bases aren't really in the right places (namely, he doesn't have enough AS to double for awhile) and he steals EXP (aka hurts EXP rank). Vaida joins too late and doesn't really contribute anything, in addition to being a subpar unit anyway.

[Geriba]

Hawkeye, Vaida need to move down.

Hawkeye's bases aren't really in the right places (namely, he doesn't have enough AS to double for awhile) and he steals EXP (aka hurts EXP rank). Vaida joins too late and doesn't really contribute anything, in addition to being a subpar unit anyway.

Hawkeye has some solid offense thanks to his Killer Axe and built-in +15% crit, and his huge HP allows him to tank fairly well. Vaida may come late, but her HHM-boosted bases make her a good choice for late-game filler. Sure, they're not the best units in the game, but they deserve their slots relative to who's beneath them.

[Tangerine]

Hawkeye's bases aren't really in the right places (namely, he doesn't have enough AS to double for awhile) and he steals EXP (aka hurts EXP rank).

What's the point in moving Hawkeye down? Who's he going to go below <_<? Hawkeye with a Killer Axe at least has 50~ crit and a huge amount of HP, giving him a better combination of offense/defense than anyone below him apart from Vaida. Isadora's offense sucks if she upgrades to powerful weapons because of her CON, so she either has weak doubles or strong singles. Her defense doesn't need to be talked about. Jaffar has obvious problems despite his great stats.

Vaida joins too late and doesn't really contribute anything, in addition to being a subpar unit anyway.

I ask the same thing for her. Vaida has fantastic combat stats that make her invincible against all physical attackers (barring archers). Not very EXP rank friendly, but she has to be ranked somehow. Vaida can actually double a couple things with her HM boosts too. If she didn't join so late, she'd most definitely be in upper mid.