fe10 balancing ideas

[Paperblade]

This would matter more if the plot was awesome or even good [...]

It matters even if the plot is bad. The storyline of this game may be silly, but the framework it sets up creates "balance" issues. It's much easier to "balance" Lucia when you can just boot her out of 2-2 because you feel like it.

I like how you ignored the part where it doesn't even "eviscerate" the plot and instead continued to say "HEY YOU'RE RUINING THE PLOT".

One has to wonder what IS was doing when I could have done the same balance job with a dartboard and wrote the same plot with cardboard cutouts.

Your idea of "balance" is not the gold standard for the industry.

My idea of balance is not smash's idea of balance, my friend.

Edit: When the fuck did I agree to remove Tits McGee from 2-2

Edited November 18, 2009 by Paperblade

[dondon151]

Deploying Danved should free up 9 more deployment slots.

[Progenitus]

Edit: When the fuck did I agree to remove Tits McGee from 2-2

>_>

I thought removing her from 2-2 and making her a level 1 Trueblade in 4-2 would be easier to balance her, but meh.

I made new changes to Lucia.

[Paperblade]

Deploying Danved should free up 9 more deployment slots.

Danved should have a skill called "Fights like 10 men", which summons clones of Danved in a 3x3 square in front of him. Any EXP they get is given to Danved.

[dondon151]

Danved should have a skill called "Fights like 10 men", which summons clones of Danved in a 3x3 square in front of him. Any EXP they get is given to Danved.

Yes. Screw fixing stats, let's just make him walk the walk.

[Interceptor]

I like how you ignored the part where it doesn't even "eviscerate" the plot and instead continued to say "HEY YOU'RE RUINING THE PLOT".

That just means that you like something that doesn't exist. For example, I like how in your post you admitted that you were Fred Kaczynski, the lesser-known brother of the Unabomber.

Anyway, as I was saying: despite how mediocre the story in this game is, the plot still exists to be gutted by messing with availability. Your position seems to be that the story is bad and you don't care what happens to it, which just means that you don't understand what I'm talking about.

My idea of balance is not smash's idea of balance, my friend.

Unfortunately, you're tacitly endorsing everything he argues in this thread unless you say otherwise, since you're the star of the very first sentence in the OP and I don't recall you repudiating anything except Lucia (which would be one of those story elements drop-kicked over the edge of a cliff, by the way).

Edited November 18, 2009 by Interceptor

[Paperblade]

]That just means that you like something that doesn't exist. For example, I like how in your post you admitted that you were Fred Kaczynski, the lesser-known brother of the Unabomber.

When did I say that it doesn't exist? I said it doesn't matter. There's a difference, you know.

Anyway, as I was saying: despite how mediocre the story in this game is, the plot still exists to be gutted by messing with availability. Your position seems to be that the story is bad and you don't care what happens to it, which just means that you don't understand what I'm talking about.

No, it's not that it's mediocre. It's that changing the plot from something that doesn't make sense to something else that doesn't make sense isn't a significant change. I would have liked to avoid availability changes, but considering there's already precedent for loyal Crimean citizens fighting for the Laguz for no reason (the only person I can find talking in the game script between 3-1 and 3-2 relevant to this is Muston, a goddamn NPC. No Neph, no Brom, no Heather, no Haar). For all it matters. Why are they there? Be it plothole or bad writing, it's nonsense either way.

The fact that you think that minor storyline events are unalterable is funny. The only one that's a real slip up is Ilyana (as Nealuchi is a plothole), and if it's really such a sore point, I suppose she could be unusable in Part 1 for some stupid reason, probably the same reason Jill doesn't feel like fighting in 1-8 (read: Just Because). The fact that you can't even name any other than the ones I mention is funny.

Unfortunately, you're tacitly endorsing everything he argues in this thread unless you say otherwise, since you're the star of the very first sentence in the OP and I don't recall you repudiating anything except Lucia (which would be one of those story elements drop-kicked over the edge of a cliff, by the way).

Me: I think balance should be equality when they're around, not equality overall

Me: since otherwise that'd make units like Giffca godstompingly broken when they do exist

Me: and units like Ilyana would be shit

The problem with taking availability into consideration is that it makes there no reason to use Ilyana most of the time, because her average performance is worse than the average performance of any other unit. Meanwhile, there's no reason not to Renning/Cain/Giff/Volke/Stefan/Bastian/Loliver in 4-E because their nearly non-existant availability means they would have to be gods in comparison to everyone else. Similar for Tibbers/Naesala/Skrim/Snacky.

I, however, don't give a shit about neutral utility etc. For all I care, the tier list can look however it wants, since it takes into consideration things that I wouldn't when balancing a PvE game. I don't want to debate tiering philosophies right now, so if that's what you're gonna do, you can shove it.

After all, Fire Emblem is not a competitive game. It's not Starcraft. It's not DotA. It's not Melee. It's not Brawl+. It's not Pokemon. It's not Magic. I just want all units to be... viable, I suppose the word is. With all units being roughly equal while they're both around, I don't feel like I've got a shitty team because I'm using Lethe, but on the same note I shouldn't feel obligated to field Renning/Cain/Giff/Volke/Stefan/Bastian/Loliver because they're 5-10 times as good as the GMs and DB that I've been using just to make them similar on a bloody tier list.

It's similar, but it's not the same thing. Smash added the bit about neutral utility on his own. Good for him. I'd like to know what your idea of "balance" is. Well, actually, that's a lie. But you know. Courtesy. Or maybe you don't. Who knows. Internet Asberger's is a terrible thing.

Runner-Up Response: ONLY A SITH DEALS IN ABSOLUTES

[Interceptor]

When did I say that it doesn't exist? I said it doesn't matter. There's a difference, you know.

Swing and a miss. Try reading what I wrote again, compare to what I quoted, and pay close attention to the word "like", because it's important.

No, it's not that it's mediocre. It's that changing the plot from something that doesn't make sense to something else that doesn't make sense isn't a significant change.

As much fun as it is to argue about an endless parade of things that are tangential to my main point, such as how good or bad the story is or whether or not some change would be significant, I really must insist that you stay focused.

Regardless of how ridiculous it is for a character's contribution to the story to be a banal observation in a base conversation, the point remains that availability is part of the story, and IS is constrained by it. Kicking Lucia out of 2-2 is a prime example, smash likes shitting all over IS without actually acknowledging this. It's an unforced error on the part of IS, to be sure, but it is what it is.

The fact that you think that minor storyline events are unalterable is funny.

Not nearly as funny as you thinking that you can randomly put words in my mouth or otherwise make silly extrapolations and think that you can get away with it. Whenever I talk to you, I feel like I'm one of those hipster parents who put their kids on leashes. Every time you see a shiny object, you run after it, and I have to yank you back.

Me: I think balance should be equality when they're around, not equality overall

Me: since otherwise that'd make units like Giffca godstompingly broken when they do exist

Me: and units like Ilyana would be shit

The problem with taking availability into consideration is that it makes there no reason to use Ilyana most of the time, because her average performance is worse than the average performance of any other unit. Meanwhile, there's no reason not to Renning/Cain/Giff/Volke/Stefan/Bastian/Loliver in 4-E because their nearly non-existant availability means they would have to be gods in comparison to everyone else. Similar for Tibbers/Naesala/Skrim/Snacky.

I, however, don't give a shit about neutral utility etc. For all I care, the tier list can look however it wants, since it takes into consideration things that I wouldn't when balancing a PvE game.

This would be where I repeat what I said originally, which is that your idea of "balance" is not the gold standard for the industry. You've hit on at least one interesting point, which is that this is a PvE game, but you went in an entirely different direction with that than I would have.

I don't want to debate tiering philosophies right now, so if that's what you're gonna do, you can shove it.

Well, since your response to tier philosophy discussions is generally either to run away at full speed in the other direction, or to regurgitate someone else's talking points, to be honest with you I wasn't really expecting you to debate them in the first place. So that's fine.

I just want all units to be... viable, I suppose the word is. With all units being roughly equal while they're both around, I don't feel like I've got a shitty team because I'm using Lethe, but on the same note I shouldn't feel obligated to field Renning/Cain/Giff/Volke/Stefan/Bastian/Loliver because they're 5-10 times as good as the GMs and DB that I've been using just to make them similar on a bloody tier list. [...] It's similar, but it's not the same thing. Smash added the bit about neutral utility on his own. Good for him.

This is where I would have gone with PvE angle. If everyone contributes about the same amount in any given chapter, and to accomplish this goal the differences between the units such as they now exist are blurred and largely scrubbed away, I don't see the value of the end product. It makes for a tight tier list, but it also makes for a blander game.

What's the difference between Boyd and Soren? Who cares, that's the answer, they both help you about the same. Flip a coin. Excited that you're about to get the help of the legendary laguz royals to fight a goddess? Don't be, Cain is about as good as all of your other guys. Altina obviously was the one who did all the hard work 800 years ago.

Etc. IS has so consistently made a wide range of nigh-useless to wtf-broken units in their games, that if someone made the argument that they did it on purpose, I'd find it at least somewhat compelling. I can see where they might have been going with Nino, I really do. No excuse for Fiona, though.

I'd like to know what your idea of "balance" is. Well, actually, that's a lie. But you know. Courtesy. Or maybe you don't. Who knows. Internet Asberger's is a terrible thing.

My idea of "balance" is that it always needs to be looked at through the lens of what the desired end result is. You and smash foist your own goals onto IS and proclaim that they don't know what they are doing. That may be true (that they are incompetents), but it's also highly unlikely that they balanced units with the same end result in mind that you stipulated.

So really, whinging about balance is probably whinging about someone else's priorities.

[Progenitus]

Paperblade, you're arguing against God Barragan. Best to kneel down before the ruler of Serenes Forest Hueco Mundo.

[Anouleth]

It's worth pointing out that new Micaiah w/Resolve and a +AVO support can now easily solo 3-6, since her avoid will be high enough to never get hit and she has enough skill capacity to take Resolve and Savior.

20/01 Micaiah with any A earth support has:

21speed (up to 31 after Resolve)

25luck

2 authority

+22.5 from the earth support

between 16 and 20 from her own affinity

(31x2)+25+10+38=135, which is at most 6 display avo in 3-6. This is not considering the possibility of feeding Micaiah BEXP, since she's virtually guaranteed MAG/SPD/LUK from it.

[Progenitus]

Well, your avoid calculations are wrong (she doesn't get 16-20 from her own affinity. It's 12. 4 avo per level. Earth affinity makes that ~35 avo at A, total. Also, lck caps have been altered, so she only has 20 lck at 1st tier, and 1 promo bonus), but enemies are getting new stats. Admittedly I haven't worked on laguz stats yet, but they're probably getting new stats as well.

In any case, tigers are still probably OHKOing Micaiah, so the only way she'd get resolve up is if a cat attacks her first. This is also ignoring biorhythm effects.

[Anouleth]

Well, your avoid calculations are wrong (she doesn't get 16-20 from her own affinity. It's 12. 4 avo per level. Earth affinity makes that ~35 avo at A, total. Also, lck caps have been altered, so she only has 20 lck at 1st tier, and 1 promo bonus), but enemies are getting new stats. Admittedly I haven't worked on laguz stats yet, but they're probably getting new stats as well.

In any case, tigers are still probably OHKOing Micaiah, so the only way she'd get resolve up is if a cat attacks her first. This is also ignoring biorhythm effects.

Hmm, even so, she'd be looking at 125AVO, which is pretty crazy. And she can always sit on a thicket, or BEXP up her SPD/LUK so she can maintain that avo in low bio (lolol350% avoid growth). And she can have her support partner take Guard, so that if she does get hit, she won't get blicked.

And I was thinking having her use sacrifice on someone, although getting thwacked by a kitty would do as well. Although given how the Laguz weapon ranks are gonna change, she may be able to survive one of the weaker tiggers.

[Narga_Rocks]

And I was thinking having her use sacrifice on someone, although getting thwacked by a kitty would do as well. Although given how the Laguz weapon ranks are gonna change, she may be able to survive one of the weaker tiggers.

I don't think he's said how they will be yet, unfortunately. I could have just read it and forgotten, though.

In the normal game, all enemy laguz that are level 14 or less have A strike.

All generic enemy laguz that are level 15 to 29 have S strike.

All generic enemy laguz that are level 30 to 40 have SS strike.

Shows how nice the game is when you consider Janaff and Ulki are nearly level 30 but have A strike.

[Progenitus]

Well, your avoid calculations are wrong (she doesn't get 16-20 from her own affinity. It's 12. 4 avo per level. Earth affinity makes that ~35 avo at A, total. Also, lck caps have been altered, so she only has 20 lck at 1st tier, and 1 promo bonus), but enemies are getting new stats. Admittedly I haven't worked on laguz stats yet, but they're probably getting new stats as well.

In any case, tigers are still probably OHKOing Micaiah, so the only way she'd get resolve up is if a cat attacks her first. This is also ignoring biorhythm effects.

Hmm, even so, she'd be looking at 125AVO, which is pretty crazy. And she can always sit on a thicket, or BEXP up her SPD/LUK so she can maintain that avo in low bio (lolol350% avoid growth). And she can have her support partner take Guard, so that if she does get hit, she won't get blicked.

And I was thinking having her use sacrifice on someone, although getting thwacked by a kitty would do as well.

Guard doesn't work like that. It's not going to make the supporter take the attack if they're gonna die.

I guess you could sacrifice, but you still have to give her resolve. Remember that many people can benefit from resolve, especially Tauroneo who has it innate.

Although given how the Laguz weapon ranks are gonna change, she may be able to survive one of the weaker tiggers.

Tigger isn't in this game. Winnie the Pooh is.

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, by removing T from 1-6 he's basically never going to not be available at a time when the rest of the DB is (in other words, you don't remove it from him to get 3x more use out of it anymore). I'm not sure how the ambiance or whatever they called it thing would work for Resolve, either +25% to skl and spd when under half health and adjacent to Tauroneo or 50% chance of increasing skl/spd by 50% while under half health and adjacent to Tauroneo. I'd prefer the former, since the latter is too unpredicatable even if it is a bigger improvement. If it is the former, then the only reason to remove Resolve from Tauroneo would be to have someone hold it as a scroll and have Heather steal it next chapter (or give it to Zihark/Jill and recruit them if it is still an option. They could even use it in 3-6 then). If it is the latter, then I probably wouldn't bother with leaving it on big T even now.

[Progenitus]

holy shit I completely forgot about this topic, what with the fe mtg topic and other stuff irl

I even have ranking topics to do...

guess one day when I'm bored I'll get back to this

[Interceptor]

Well, thanks for the content-free update. See you in two months.