fe10 balancing ideas

[Narga_Rocks]

Balancing is hard work, made harder when you try to do too many things at once. The chance of unintended consequences is pretty high.

Any game that still has earth and resolve (as it works in NA) won't be balanced. Simple as that. Not everyone can take earth, but since anybody can take earth (and resolve) you'd have to make sure everybody's avo is so low beforehand that when they take it they aren't dodging everything. But then all the units that can't get Earth because some other unit got it are never dodging anything ever. Earth is still at least a 10 avo swing, and now that he is jumping everyone's speed resolve is at least 20 (outside part 1). Going from 60 listed to 30 listed is 68.40% to 18.3%, for example. 40 to 10 is 32.4% to 2.1%. To prevent epicness, everyone has to hover around 60 listed against before supports to prevent the possibility of creating powerhouses. Resolve needs nerfing. Resolve was kinda useless in the Japanese version, though. <20% hp and only has like skill% or something to activate even then. I don't remember which stat%, though. So either make it <20% hp but all the time or make it <50% but skill%. Then make it cost 10 cap (to make units even want it anymore, since at 15 I'm not sure how good it is this way). That should prevent it from creating epicness. And like I said before, Earth and Heaven => Anima. Or something. And all bonuses are multiplied by 1.6. Max 24 avo from supports alone. None of this 35 avo with Earth x wind/dark/thunder or 45 avo with Earth x Earth stuff.

Also, wasn't he making other units' starts work within 3 spaces while Ike's still worked over the whole field? Enemy hit rates need to climb a lot or else Micaiah (and many others) will still be quite godly (without my other changes). At which point you are basically forced to use the starred units everywhere if you ever want to avoid hits. At which point the game isn't balanced because units with stars will fill the team (to make a good team). Even if you give the other team 2 or 3 semi-bosses on each map (in part 4 at least) that each have 2 or 3 stars (instead of a blanket improvement to the hit rate of all enemy units) it still doesn't work because the semi-bosses can't be everywhere (and thus our team has pockets of invincibility anyway). Or you can make their stars work everywhere, but that's a "DM gets punched" idea if I ever heard one. And it's practically the same as a blanket improvement anyway.

[Rewjeo]

To be honest, your "balancing" of the masteries makes me want to just say "Screw those, I just got an extra 30 skill capacity! Time for some broken skill combos!"

[Narga_Rocks]

To be honest, your "balancing" of the masteries makes me want to just say "Screw those, I just got an extra 30 skill capacity! Time for some broken skill combos!"

Yeah, I know. Although, he already cut them down to 15, so units already get anywhere from 40 to 80 capacity depending on what they are.

Aether - same

For 15 capacity? I'd take it. Even if it is still (skill/2)%.

Sol - skl% chance to recover HP based on damage done

Like other skills, it only procs on the first attack. It sucks.

Luna/eclipse - skl% chance to negate def.

I suppose this is still okay, though it doesn't OHKO dragons.

Astra - skl% chance to do a 5-hit combo, each at 1/2 damage

With a skl% chance I'd take it if it can still crit. Well, maybe not now that he's nerfed forges. Killing weapons are simply too weak by part 4. Even with +2 mt on them. If it can't crit, it blows chunks.

Deadeye - skl% chance to put enemy to sleep

Considering the only two snipers you'd likely be using at this point can ORKO almost everything they double? I suppose for things they don't double it might be okay, but unless he significantly changes enemy AS in 4-E, they'll double there. Beforehand, Shinon doubles a bunch and if he "fixes" Rolf then Rolf doubles too.

Stun - skl% chance to prevent enemy from moving for one turn

Unless Marcia and them get a big str boost this one is still okay. I have to wonder if he will nerf Elincia though. Also, with braves (and I assume Amiti) he says he'll let skills proc on the first two attempts, so this skill is still quite nice for Elincia's player phase. And with Vantage at 100%? Good times. (And if he balances it with Tear it makes things even more fun.)

Anyway, Elincia's skills (or what I'd give her anyway):

Vantage + Stun + Cancel + Canto = 45. Still 15 more room for Adept or Paragon (or x-foe). Her durability improves significantly. Even in 4-E-3 she can take Alondite and at least have two things that could activate to prevent taking damage. It's better on maps like 4-5 where the enemy mostly all has 1 range. Two attempts at stun, two at cancel, two at adept. If the enemy is 3HKOd, that's good. Even if the enemy is 4HKOd, Adept means another shot at stun or cancel.

Colossus - skl% chance to add damage based on con/wt (I don't know the exact formula, but at least the whole "loltriplestr" is removed).

Unless it gives enough damage to turn most 3HKOs into 2HKOs then this skill sucks.

Impale - ???

Ire - ???

unknown.

Ire: (str/4)% chance of berserk. I think it makes okay sense with the name "Ire". And given how rarely it activates it falls in line with how weak most of the other masteries are.

Impale: spd% chance of double damage but it takes an extra use from the weapon. Trouble is the blessing, but oh well. It's just, impale should take extra uses since if you impale your enemy with your lance you typically lose it. And I chose speed instead of skill for a reason. Maybe an extra 2 or 3 uses. Considering Astra, I don't think Impale is too much.

Flare - same

Corona - same

Yeah. I'd take Flare, no doubt. Even Corona is now pretty good. Ignore Res and if you don't kill then the enemy is almost guaranteed to miss? Yeah.

Bane - skl% chance to reduce enemy's HP to 1

Lethality - same

Just let Lethality still kill. Make it (crit/2)% (after enemy luck) or skl%, whatever is lower. Assuming Bane continues to not activate on a potential killing blow (in other words, stays the same), it's fine. Especially at 15 cap.

Savage - skl% chance to halve enemy's skl for 3 turns

Corona >>> Savage. Halving hit is better than halving skill, aside from enemy crit remaining the same with corona. And Corona boosts damage. The only thing saving Savage is that Nailah has an extreme amount of skill and Volug I suppose could with books. Unless he gimps their stats, too.

Rend - spd% chance to halve enemy's spd for 3 turns

I suppose I should stave off judgment until he says how he's going to "balance" Lyre, but as near as I can tell this means she is lots worse. Rend was like the one thing that made her maybe worth using. 40% chance (64% in two attacks) to OHKO anything in the game that doesn't have Mantle. Otherwise she does <10 damage. Now she either does <10 damage or she does <10 damage but some other units can double more easily afterwards. Yippee. We now need a Lyre tier.

Roar - str% chance to halve enemy's str for 3 turns

It's a really good thing Cain and Giffca rarely need this thing.

Tear - spd% chance to prevent enemy from moving for 3 turns

Well, I suppose now Ulki and Janaff actually need something else to be able to ORKO. Mia is already getting balanced down. Of course, preventing skills from activating on a second attack is already doing a good job since it makes doubling less meaningful. 3HKO but double would only be slightly better than 2HKO and not. Like, 30% adept instead of 23%. Not as different as 51% compared to 23%. And nerfing forges was a good trick, too. And nerfing crits so that she can no longer blick to avoid counters (would still KO what she 3HKOs but now faces counters even with a crit on the first attack, but now has trouble killing generals even when she starts 4HKOing consistently). Frankly if he's going to try and not screw her over any more he'll need to boost her starting str and def significantly and give her better than a 25 str tier 2 cap and a 33 str tier 3 cap, and a better str growth%. He won't, though. (I say 25 and 33 since those are both 2 higher than her original). I'm thinking base 20 str and a 60% growth, with 27 tier 2 cap and 35 or 36 tier 3 cap. Still takes until level 19 to cap tier 2 str, and takes until 20/11 to cap tier 3 at 36. I'm assuming units that already have 35 str go up as well. Besides, in fe4 Swordmasters were tied for the best PC str cap. Though I suppose Lakche was anything but balanced. At least she wasn't like the Holy Weapon users.

(BTW, what is with giving Stefan a superweapon when nobody else has one? And are the non-Stefan SS Sword units stuck with Alondite as their SS? That 18 mt thing? Why do Rogues get a +4 on their weapon? And how is the new Vague Katti worse than Balmunk? Balmunk didn't give an additional 10 luck and 10 def and 10 hp for durability, nor an extra 10 str. Stefan starts with 67mt, 63hp, 56spd, 31def, 30lck, 26 res.

56x2 + 30 + 15 = 157 avo without supports and only using Ike's stars. Not to mention somewhat tanky. I think at some point (probably even before my last post, maybe even a long time ago) the thing about other units (ie: more than already have them) getting stars and having them take effect got removed. Good thing, too. Still, there are avo tiles out there.

You know, considering he doesn't even think of Mia as high tier (his gfaqs tier list has her at the top of upper mid), it's amazing the nerf-job he's already pulled on her. What's next, removing swordmaster crit?

[Mister Cold]

Bane - skl% chance to reduce enemy's HP to 1

Lethality - same

Just let Lethality still kill. Make it (crit/2)% (after enemy luck) or skl%, whatever is lower. Assuming Bane continues to not activate on a potential killing blow (in other words, stays the same), it's fine. Especially at 15 cap.

making lethality crit/2 will be broken,

25crit base + 20 stillo (or 15 from the SS) = 45 (or 40) not counting in th crit from luck (since you changed it from skill/2 to skill) that would give volke 36+45= 81% crit,, that means roughly 40% chance of killing an enemy on attack (add in adept, and if your hit is high enough perhaps gamble for 50%)

[Original Alear]

(BTW, what is with giving Stefan a superweapon when nobody else has one? And are the non-Stefan SS Sword units stuck with Alondite as their SS? That 18 mt thing? Why do Rogues get a +4 on their weapon? And how is the new Vague Katti worse than Balmunk? Balmunk didn't give an additional 10 luck and 10 def and 10 hp for durability, nor an extra 10 str. Stefan starts with 67mt, 63hp, 56spd, 31def, 30lck, 26 res.

56x2 + 30 + 15 = 157 avo without supports and only using Ike's stars. Not to mention somewhat tanky. I think at some point (probably even before my last post, maybe even a long time ago) the thing about other units (ie: more than already have them) getting stars and having them take effect got removed. Good thing, too. Still, there are avo tiles out there.

As far as the Vague Katti goes, I think it was pretty obviously a joke dude. In fact, things like that (and leo one-rounding with an infinite use weapon in prologue) make me pretty sure that some of the other changes are jokes too. Though others are quite reasonable.

[Narga_Rocks]

Bane - skl% chance to reduce enemy's HP to 1

Lethality - same

Just let Lethality still kill. Make it (crit/2)% (after enemy luck) or skl%, whatever is lower. Assuming Bane continues to not activate on a potential killing blow (in other words, stays the same), it's fine. Especially at 15 cap.

making lethality crit/2 will be broken,

25crit base + 20 stillo (or 15 from the SS) = 45 (or 40) not counting in th crit from luck (since you changed it from skill/2 to skill) that would give volke 36+45= 81% crit,, that means roughly 40% chance of killing an enemy on attack (add in adept, and if your hit is high enough perhaps gamble for 50%)

I said to subtract enemy luck. So even at 80 crit he'd only actually have <60, and around 26 or 27% chance to KO. I forgot that he changed crit from skill/2 to skill, though. My crit idea only really works with a skill/2 crit. So it would have to be (skill + other bonuses to crit - cev)/3 for it to be fair.

My complaint was that bane = lethality with his way, and I don't particularly like that idea.

Edited November 6, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[bushichubtoaddo]

Just two suggestions.

1. A huge problem with a lot of the low tier characters is that their unique skills are not so unique, since you can pull them off. Usually the top tier characters rule because they are in position to abuse the best skills, and you're free to give it to them. If you couldn't, characters like Astrid, Tauroneo, Tormod, etc. would likely get a fairly huge boost. There's obvious issues, like with Nihil being so important for ENDGAME, but there could always be exceptions, like you can remove Nihil and Mercy and whatnot.

2. For the most part mastery skills are just criticals, the extra effect rarely matters, and when it does matter, triggering them is too much up to chance. Why not change a couple of them to activated abilities like Glare?

For example,

Deadeye - Hit% to put target to sleep.

Bane - Hit%/2 to reduce target's HP to 1.

[charmander6000]

If all the characters were equal-ish none should be favoured to get skills/supports which would make abusers like Mia a lot worse without even trying to nerf her.

[Narga_Rocks]

If all the characters were equal-ish none should be favoured to get skills/supports which would make abusers like Mia a lot worse without even trying to nerf her.

My point is that even with her adept and Ike supporting potential, smash feels she is in upper mid. Without that as a possibility, and assuming he bumps everyone else's speed up so that they can actually double, he'll need to up her str and def by a lot to make her even with the improved versions of everybody else.

Also, if everyone is the same, there is still no reason to give one unit an earth support and another unit resolve or various other skills. The issue becomes that you will always be able to create multiple godly units, thus making things really easy. I suppose they are all "balanced" if every single one of them can do it, but the point is that they are still going to make things too easy. Or you make the enemies good enough that it doesn't become too easy, yet now you have the issue that the units that didn't get something (probably 4 out of a 10 man team) end up somewhat useless.

And the current Mia is not an "abuser". Unless you mean abusing the system to make your team as a whole better. Anyway, unless he's careful with how he modifies that GMs and what he does with Mia, he'll make her significantly worse than everybody else. Not that I think he's against that result. I'm sure he'd enjoy it. Just saying if he's truly trying to balance things then he will likely need to up her str and def significantly.

[Progenitus]

As far as the Vague Katti goes, I think it was pretty obviously a joke dude. In fact, things like that (and leo one-rounding with an infinite use weapon in prologue) make me pretty sure that some of the other changes are jokes too. Though others are quite reasonable.

Stefan's actual stats are going to be nerfed, obviously. It was just too tempting to put Balmunk into this game.

Leo needed an uber weapon because he needs a big boost.

Just two suggestions.

1. A huge problem with a lot of the low tier characters is that their unique skills are not so unique, since you can pull them off. Usually the top tier characters rule because they are in position to abuse the best skills, and you're free to give it to them. If you couldn't, characters like Astrid, Tauroneo, Tormod, etc. would likely get a fairly huge boost. There's obvious issues, like with Nihil being so important for ENDGAME, but there could always be exceptions, like you can remove Nihil and Mercy and whatnot.

....

Does anyone here actually think I'm not going to be boosting all the low tiers so that they're usable?

2. For the most part mastery skills are just criticals, the extra effect rarely matters, and when it does matter, triggering them is too much up to chance. Why not change a couple of them to activated abilities like Glare?

For example,

Deadeye - Hit% to put target to sleep.

Bane - Hit%/2 to reduce target's HP to 1.

If I ever get an AR to hack the game, I don't know if I can change the masteries to completely different skills.

Though to be fair, I'm probably never going to do that, so...

Edited November 7, 2009 by 8========================D

[Progenitus]

Meg

Problems

Aside from the fact that she looks like she got hit by a bus, Meg's worst problem is her spd base, which is so low she gets doubled by everything for several chapters. Having low move and a bad spd cap which pretty much destroys her only good stat, as well as having lolheaven, doesn't help either. So we set out to make Meg into a class that IS was initially going to put her in.

Changes

- Change Meg into a pegasus.

- Increase spd base to 16.

Results

Her str and def are still only okay (well, 10 base in both is pretty good for her level. 35 growth sucks though), but she doubles with ease and now has flying utility to back it up. Basically, imagine if Jill in the regular game had more spd. That's basically what Meg is going to turn into.

[Progenitus]

Volug

Problems

VOlug's problem is that he's too damn badass for this game. His abs solo maps, along with his ridiculous overkill stats and mobility and lolearth.

Changes

- -2 str base, but +20 str growth

- Starts with B strike

Results

This drops his base att to 21 and even after his strike rank goes up it becomes 25 (rather than 25 -> 30), so he's no longer such a dominant force in DB chapters.

The str growth boost, however, was to keep his part 4 on par, since his part 4 in the normal game isn't omgpwnage, though it's still decent.

[Progenitus]

Tauroneo

Problems

His big problem is wonky availability. Being in 1-6 actually kinda hurts him when it comes to skills, since because he disappears for so long, there's no reason to keep resolve on him. We decided to get rid of his 1-6 so that he gets to keep his innate resolve, which is going to be pretty sexy in this game. We're planning 25% boost to skl/spd at 50% HP for adjacent units.

Changes

- He's no longer in 1-6. But he's available in 3-6.

- Base level also drops to 20/7, but no changes to his bases.

Results

Basically, we fixed his availability such that there's a reason to keep resolve on him. We also switched one of his chapters to 3-6 where a tank would really help, and we also dropped his base level so he can gain exp faster to help his bases (which were fairly poor for a 20/14 unit. Most DB units were close to matching him 10 levels lower).

[Florete]

VOlug's problem is that he's too damn badass for this game. His abs solo maps, along with his ridiculous overkill stats and mobility and lolearth.

W1n.

I should totally sig that.

[Paperblade]

xfd@Narga's Mia rant. Oh man. Vantage didn't get buffed to 100%. Fire affinity didn't get buffed. You're getting butthurt over nothing.

Speed is an overpowered stat. Don't even try to deny it.

You know how I know? I look at your tier list. Sixth best unit in the game, shitty HP, shitty Str, shitty Def, insane Skill (joke stat), average Luck, average Res. Shitty weapon type (lolswords). Insane Speed. Adept (as well as, say, Tear) was fucking broken because it made Speed EVEN better, since doubling made 1 Spd exponentially better even though you're already doubling, which in a game with any semblance of balance is when Speed should start to drop off. But not so, in FE, it actually gets *better*.

Skill was fucking worthless, especially since most of the skills that work off of it don't even have a 1:1 ratio (whereas Speed ones do, lololol) and Crit's garbage unless you're getting liek 50 from your class and weapons already (ie you're a Trueblade or Volke). Crit damage was nerfed so that

A. Units like Boyd don't have a 20% chance to explode upon being attacked

B. Skill doesn't become Speed 2.0

Forges were a problem since it didn't matter how god awful your Strength was, you could still at least 3HKO 90% of the stuff in the game, and since money is apparently infinite we can give everyone +5 Atk/25 Hit/15 Crit weapons, which is, you know, a problem.

And Vantage fucking sucked unless you had like 50 Speed and had a high chance to OHKO back (ie you're Naesala) or Cancel (ie, you're Mia), which is the same problem as Adept and doubling. 20 Speed is 4% Cancel stop, 30 is 9%. wtf, a 125% increase in activation with only a 50% increase in the stat. And you know what?

Having overkill Speed doesn't even hurt your damn durability, since it also gives lolavoid. At least Str has the decency to not scale exponentially with stacking the shit out of it, and Def doesn't help offense at all and doesn't even work vs. some enemies. Speed's just broken to high hell.

But I guess in your fantasy universe, this was all actually a nerf specifically targeted at Mia.

Atk/Def boosts for supports. The problem was that double Atk only gave +1 Atk at B and A (same with Def), whereas Avd and Hit got doubled at all levels. So there was no real point in doubling up unless you're playing Normal Mode and wanna see Cats tink Aran or some shit. idk

Your suggestions to "fix" Mia are fucking ridiculous. She'd steamroll regular Ike, who's gonna get nerfed TO THE GROUND BABY.

20/20/1 Mia

@Silver Blade

51 atk, 52 Crit.

@Wo Dao

42 atk, 102 Crit.

Perfectly balanced.

Ike doesn't reach 51 attack with Ragnell until 20/20/5. And since she has 100% vantage, that means that she has like a 30% chance of just outright killing whatever attacks her.

But I guess in your universe this is okay. FFS, she doesn't even have fucking Adept or Astra. That's her bare bones offense. She doesn't even need an Earth support anymore because shit dies before it can even counter. With either one of those it jumps to a 50% chance to instagib attackers.

Balance!

Edited November 7, 2009 by Paperblade

[Narga_Rocks]

I find it interesting that of all the posts I've made in this topic, and all the questions I've asked you about the implementation of the changes, you choose to ignore all of it in favour of jumping on my posts about Mia. It's typical, though, so I find it unsurprising.

xfd@Narga's Mia rant. Oh man. Vantage didn't get buffed to 100%. Fire affinity didn't get buffed. You're getting butthurt over nothing.

Vantage may be at 100%, but I see less reason to leave it on her now than before. Before, she can have 30% vantage, 30% cancel, and actually pull something halfway decent. Throw on crits from forges and adept possibly giving an extra shot at cancel or a crit, she actually reduced her chance to be hit at 1 range by a not insignificant amount. Other units can't get that combination with Vantage simply because they don't get things for free or have innate crit.

Now, however, any unit can take Vantage + Cancel and not need adept and significantly reduce the chance of getting hit. More than Mia, in fact, since an unaltered Mia still isn't 2HKOing anything aside from swordmasters and sages/bishops and dragonmasters. At least, not until promotion or silver blades. Also, even though Mia now has 36 crit at base and others only have their skill, with the boost to killer weapons many of the other units should be able to 2HKO with killer, while Mia still needs a forge. Meaning, other units should be able to get a better reduction in chance to be hit than Mia. Also, it is harder for Mia to get a forge than before, and even with the crit boost he's applying to the wo dao, she still can't blick something away because she's mostly 4HKOing or worse with a wo dao. I don't remember if he boosted its mt score, but it would be ridiculous to boost it by enough for normal Mia to have any use out of it beyond 3-2 (in other words, I wouldn't boost its mt by enough), or for it to be amazing in 3-P or 3-1. In fact, considering she's lucky to 4HKO Warriors with it now and 5HKOs halbs, the 2x crit means she's even less likely to KO warriors in 3-P and 3-1 now than she was before.

And fire getting buffed? .8 x 3 = 2.4 which I presume rounds down. Not that you answered that question, either, though. I'd quote myself to show where I asked, but since you didn't answer the first time I don't see the point. Anyway, unless she supports with another thing that gives mt, the "buff" to fire consists of an extra 7 hit on top of what she'd get anyway, since he said 2.5 becomes 5. Yippee. What a boost.

Speed is an overpowered stat. Don't even try to deny it.

Of course it's overpowered. It is what determines who doubles and who doesn't. The trouble mainly is that the game is far too consistent and no enemies are weighed down by much outside of part 1. Even in part 1 they stop getting weighed down surprisingly quickly. In other games the difference between x and x+1 speed was generally like 15% of the map or less. In this game there are times it is as much as 40% or so. The difference, for example, between 24 and 25 at times is tremendous. The trouble is the lack of variance in enemies. In other games even the same class could vary in speed by as much as 3 points in a single map, and that is even before considering enemies getting weighed down significantly by steel so a unit that doesn't double an enemy using iron probably doubles the ones using steel. Aside from upping everyone's speed to the general plateau there isn't really anything much that can be done about it.

You know how I know? I look at your tier list. Sixth best unit in the game, shitty HP, shitty Str, shitty Def, insane Skill (joke stat), average Luck, average Res. Shitty weapon type (lolswords). Insane Speed. Adept (as well as, say, Tear) was fucking broken because it made Speed EVEN better, since doubling made 1 Spd exponentially better even though you're already doubling, which in a game with any semblance of balance is when Speed should start to drop off. But not so, in FE, it actually gets *better*.

Her HP isn't that bad. 70% growth and similar caps to many other units tells me that. She even catches up to many other units along the way. Then of course her 50 cap shows up, but oh well. Str starts at 17, which is enough to 3HKO most things with steel blade, though she may need 1 point. That's not so bad, really. While she consistently has lower str than many other units, being able to 3HKO with meaningful crit and a higher proc with adept means it is "good enough str". And eventually (by promotion or 3-E, whichever comes first) she can ORKO plenty. Whatever you may think of her str, it is eventually "good str", and beforehand is "good enough". Def starts out bad, but between promotion and 4-E it's actually good for a dodger. The 25 cap can be annoying, but it's still fine. I again disagree with your description. Skill is not a joke stat. She can be more accurate with weapons like silver blade than other units are with normal silver type weapons. That gives her more leeway. Her luck starts out above average, compared to the team, and while its growth is only average, she has opportunity for bexp without needing high amounts of it, and thus actually has a hope of getting past 30. In other words, actual immunity to part 4 sniper crits. Not a great hope, of course, but immunity to halb crits is more than a lot of other units can say. Now, Ulki and his 45 base cev of course is quite awesome and makes hers look kinda bad, but there aren't all that many with 30+ cev. And the difference between doubling with Adept at 30 and doubling with adept at 29 isn't that big. The difference is when she doubles and they don't and it's 30 to 22 or something. Actually, if it wasn't for your hatred of Neph you'd probably be best served trying to bring Mia down by arguing Neph for Adept. But Neph is a blindspot for you and smash too so we don't have to worry about that. Basically, though, her stats aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

Skill was fucking worthless, especially since most of the skills that work off of it don't even have a 1:1 ratio (whereas Speed ones do, lololol) and Crit's garbage unless you're getting liek 50 from your class and weapons already (ie you're a Trueblade or Volke). Crit damage was nerfed so that

Um, most of the beorc used skill, and only Aether, Sol, Astra, Deadeye, Bane, Lethality were skill/2. Maybe a few others, but things like Savage (not beorc but still skill%), Impale, Luna, Flare (actually quite amazing if they'd just double), probably others with skill%. I suppose disarm and corrosion would be better off full skill, though.

A. Units like Boyd don't have a 20% chance to explode upon being attacked

B. Skill doesn't become Speed 2.0

Killer Axe now has 12 mt. Boyd has 22 str at base and fire affinity and a 65% str growth. Tell me something, how long do you honestly think it will take before he 2HKOs with killer? Give Boyd Vantage, stick him next to Oscar, have them support, tell me what you get? And you can buy these things eventually. You can start 3-2 with three of them. He's going to have 50 crit at base with the thing. 60 with Oscar next to him. Strap on Cancel with its 18% activation and he's good to go. Now, let's assume Smash actually fixes (or mitigates, anyway) his speed problem, and Boyd is one scary unit. Even without the speed fix I'd say he's >>> Mia (without changes). (Oh, assuming he doesn't cut back on Titania's str, she's pretty hax with this setup, too, only I think her bonds aren't getting more than +5 without causing trouble for Mist and Rhys. Still, her cancel% will be better, so it might balance. And depending on how quickly she promotes she may need to support fire/dark/water.)

Forges were a problem since it didn't matter how god awful your Strength was, you could still at least 3HKO 90% of the stuff in the game, and since money is apparently infinite we can give everyone +5 Atk/25 Hit/15 Crit weapons, which is, you know, a problem.

Money isn't infinite, and I'm not sure about giving a +5 on all 3 things. 2 of them, sure, but all 3? And you still can't use it every battle. But there is a lot of money. Your phrase's sarcastic tone implies you disagree with the idea that there is plenty of money. Are you just going to take potshots, or would you care to actually make a proper response to Int's sig? Besides, she can still grab a steel blade and 3HKO almost as much, and in a map or two exactly as much. Like I said, her str isn't as bad as you seem to think. That's just your anti-Mia goggles letting you believe that one. Anyway, the trouble with being able to forge forever is that since she doubles and has innate crit and a lot of skill it just makes for a pretty awesome combination. But that is part of why she is better in the true game.

And Vantage fucking sucked unless you had like 50 Speed and had a high chance to OHKO back (ie you're Naesala) or Cancel (ie, you're Mia), which is the same problem as Adept and doubling. 20 Speed is 4% Cancel stop, 30 is 9%. wtf, a 125% increase in activation with only a 50% increase in the stat. And you know what?

Having overkill Speed doesn't even hurt your damn durability, since it also gives lolavoid. At least Str has the decency to not scale exponentially with stacking the shit out of it, and Def doesn't help offense at all and doesn't even work vs. some enemies. Speed's just broken to high hell.

Well of course it wasn't good if you only had 20 speed compared to 30 or 40 or 50. It is speed based. I understand why he bumped it back to 100%. Personally I'd go with either 100% while at <half health or possibly (speed + maxhp - currenthp)% or something like that. Maybe (level + maxhp - currenthp)% to completely avoid speed, though that does hurt the usefulness of giving it to underleveled units.

So yes, speed is quite amazing in the true game. If you recognize how amazing it is, why did you constantly ignore that reality and try to argue Mia and Neph lower than they should be? If speed is so amazing, and you recognize this fact, shouldn't you have been the first to jump on the bandwagon?

But I guess in your fantasy universe, this was all actually a nerf specifically targeted at Mia.

I'm thinking smash wouldn't be sad about how effectively it nerfs her. Maybe he didn't think about it in advance, maybe he did. I can't get in his head. All I'm saying is that some of these "fixes" hit her harder than the other high tiers, and Smash doesn't even think of her as high tier so it makes things more suspicious that it hits her harder than them. I suppose I should have waited for the changes he makes to the other high tiers, but like all his other endeavours on this board, he's taking his sweet time and I can't be bothered to wait.

Also, your insults are inferior to Int's, I have to say. It's a wonder back on gamefaqs that you guys always pretended his insults weren't way more effective than yours.

Atk/Def boosts for supports. The problem was that double Atk only gave +1 Atk at B and A (same with Def), whereas Avd and Hit got doubled at all levels. So there was no real point in doubling up unless you're playing Normal Mode and wanna see Cats tink Aran or some shit. idk

That's kinda out of left field. I am okay with the .8/.8, you know. I disagree with keeping earth in existence, but you haven't even acknowledged my suggestions at how to fix that problem. You spent multiple paragraphs talking about how broken speed can be despite never appearing to argue about characters based on that understanding, and yet you didn't even say anything in defence of leaving earth in existence? There is also little reason to double up on earth, now. 35 avo compared to 45 avo is pretty big in some instances, but being able to take an extra +2 mt or +2 def can possibly outweigh it. Especially since the only unit that really cared about doubling earth up was Zihark. So basically if he fixes Fiona enough to be usable, which I assume he will, that gives 4 earth affinities for the DB to make use of. Also, I assume Tanith should show up earlier, so that's an extra earth for the GMs. You could probably have 14 units with earth affinity supports in part 4 and if you combine them with wind/dark/thunder then they should all have a +35. In the very post of mine you were complaining about I made multiple comments (that were not addressed either) asking what buffs you are giving to the enemies. As it stands now, I don't imagine them hitting much of anything.

Your suggestions to "fix" Mia are fucking ridiculous. She'd steamroll regular Ike, who's gonna get nerfed TO THE GROUND BABY.

20/20/1 Mia

@Silver Blade

51 atk, 52 Crit.

@Wo Dao

42 atk, 102 Crit.

Perfectly balanced.

Okay, I may not have thought through my changes much. I should have done one or the other. Either +3 to her str base, or her str growth is 60%. Also, her new 25 str cap in tier 2 may be okay, though I still think 26 and 34 may be better than 25 and 33. Don't forget the strongest weapon she can hold now has 18mt and doesn't appear until 4-E-3. And there are only 3 forge opportunities during the silver period so she's likely stuck with a 16 mt silver blade. At least the skill + 20 crit means 60, which is better than her 55 at this point with a silver forge in the regular game. But check her normal base str and growth against other units. Honestly, 7mt wo dao with 17str meaning 24 mt in 3-P? And 2x crit? Boosting wo dao's crit ain't helping her there. Then in 3-2 she has maybe 18 str and a support for 19 base mt? Steel Blade (no way is she getting a forge if I can only make one. I'm not sure whose forge I'd make, but I don't think it would be hers) makes 32 mt. There are things she 3HKOs, many things actually, but lots of units ORKO those things and even if she pulls a crit she still takes a counter. It's true she now has 36 base crit, but that is less than the 38 she got in the normal game anyway, and that was 3x. And she's 4 or 5 HKO on generals which now means she's leaving them with plenty more hp. Basically, her proc tanks while most other units are getting 100%s. Now, I suppose he may not adjust the other units to have better speed, but in 3-2 in particular you just need 21 AS for a lot of doubling. Also, my whole assertion that she now needs more str is under the assumption Smash will actually make the others able to double. Even if not immediately. Even if it takes until 3-7 or so. Also, some of them will be better even without doubling. Killer Axe + support?

Ike doesn't reach 51 attack with Ragnell until 20/20/5. And since she has 100% vantage, that means that she has like a 30% chance of just outright killing whatever attacks her.

Even with the 27 str cap I gave her, she hits 30 after promotion. Unless I missed a major boost to silver blades somewhere, that's only 46 mt (48 with support). Did you assume I'm suddenly supporting her with fire/water/dark? After the many months of Int and I arguing for MiaxIke, why would you use that? And why can't Ike support fire/dark/water? He hits 49, she hits 48. Honestly, though, in 4-1 it takes all of the 44 mt she can eke out with a non-mt A support and 26 str just to KO the things in 4-1. Lots of units can ORKO by this point. The difference between 44 and 48 is a little bit of extra damage to generals. Okay, a fair amount, but still not ORKOing them. Besides, I was assuming Ike and Titania and etc would get a +2 on their tier 2 str caps as well. Anyway, you need to stop comparing stats in a void because it doesn't help much. So after all of part 3 sucking in the new game, she finally gets to ORKO stuff, and assuming the enemy gets some boosts she needs a little extra mt to ORKO. If they aren't boosted a little then I suppose the 25 str cap in tier 2 making 28 str in tier 3 would be sufficient, though in order to actually ORKO you are kinda forcing her to support with fire/dark/water depending on what you do with enemies. And Ragnell still has two range. And he still has a significant durability advantage. If her durability disadvantage isn't important enough for it to balance her offence here, why should it be in the normal game? Just asking.

And why would I let her keep Vantage? Even if we go by the whole innate vantage means other units get half effect or whatever, they just end up getting the Vantage units had in the normal game anyway, and without innate crit and cancel that wasn't particularly helpful there. And since that's part 4 by then, I'm giving Vantage to Elincia. I suppose she could be buffed or debuffed and if she's buffed enough she may not need it or if she's debuffed enough then she won't use it as well, but as she is now I'm thinking stun (even the modified version) + 100% vantage + cancel + imbue/adept/x-foe + canto will make her quite amazing. So much so that it is likely more efficient for her to have Vantage. Now, it is true you have 3 by now, but I've already shown how Boyd can be disgusting with it. There is no reason to bring up her 100% Vantage as if it makes her broken or not nerfed.

But I guess in your universe this is okay. FFS, she doesn't even have fucking Adept or Astra. That's her bare bones offense. She doesn't even need an Earth support anymore because shit dies before it can even counter. With either one of those it jumps to a 50% chance to instagib attackers.

What, 30% of them in part 4 after not being particularly good for part 3? Part 3 is longer, you know. She needs a period of brokenness at this rate anyway. I'd prefer balanced throughout the game, where she is basically even with them throughout part 3 if you can manage it. Anyway, if you are going to complain about her ability to 2HKO in part 4 with 51 mt, I'd take a look at how much she 2HKOs in a normal game in part 4. By the way, the answer there is: everything but generals and bosses(auras included) and red dragons. (well, if she is supportless in 4-E-2 since I suppose her with Ike then she misses out there). So I suppose since you are afraid of her using a skill she may not even get to keep (Vantage) that means you'll actually nerf her str beyond how bad you think it is now to avoid her actually 2HKOing ever.

Balance!

In all that you didn't say what you are doing. Now, I know smash likes taking forever to put anything down here, but since it gets brought up and you took the time to toss feeble insults and spin numbers and blow things out of proportion, one would think you could also take the time to say:

Oh, and base str becomes 18, base defence becomes 16, str growth up to 50%, spd growth down to 60%, base hp +3, base spd -2.

Or something.

You do seem to think her hp, str, def are oh so bad. If that is so, then to balance her she surely needs more of it. Maybe I gave her too much (and I admit, a 20 str base and a 60% growth and a 27/36 cap are probably too much in that combination) but you can't honestly think with your other changes she'd actually be even with the other units as she is now. Unless they all get significantly nerfed to the point where nobody ORKOs and they are all ~4 to 5 HKOd by everything. Maybe then she'd be average. Except unless you actually drop her str base or str growth she's still going to be 2HKOing so many things in part 4 and Vantage with her crit and astra is going to be just as dirty at 44mt in 4-1 as it is at 51mt. I suppose with no Vague Katti and a weaker Tempest though she will soon stop 2HKOing. Which should make you happy. Of course, if your other units are ORKOing then you've done exactly what I predicted. I'd like to see the changes you guys make that prevents everybody else from ORKOing in part 4. Wow the royals are going to be interesting.

[Paperblade]

I find it interesting that of all the posts I've made in this topic, and all the questions I've asked you about the implementation of the changes, you choose to ignore all of it in favour of jumping on my posts about Mia. It's typical, though, so I find it unsurprising.

Miccy? Your entire Miccy comparison rested solely on her ability to equip Resolve and get a support with someone who doesn't even want to support her. She's now getting Resolve in Part 3 at the earliest, aka OHKO land, meaning the only time this matters in the slightest is 4-E, which is nice, but in case you missed the memoes, masteries can't miss.

Vantage may be at 100%, but I see less reason to leave it on her now than before. Before, she can have 30% vantage, 30% cancel, and actually pull something halfway decent.

As opposed to 100% vantage 30% cancel? 9 > 30 now?

Pikablu, is that you?

Throw on crits from forges and adept possibly giving an extra shot at cancel or a crit, she actually reduced her chance to be hit at 1 range by a not insignificant amount.

Sigh. If Mia is 3HKOing

100% Vantage + 30% Cancel = 30% chance to take no damage

100% Vantage + 30% Adept + 20% Crit (+15 from skill change - 15 from forge nerf) = 6% chance to take no damage

Chance of at least 1 happening: 34.2%

30% Vantage + 30% Cancel = 9% chance to take no damage

30% Vantage + 20% displayed Crit + 30% Adept (both required) = 6% chance to take no damage

30% Vantage + 20% Crit = 6% chance to take no damage

30% Vantage + 30% Adept + 30% Cancel = 9% chance to take no damage

Chance of at least one happening happening = ~27%

Apparently 27 > 34 now, so this is a nerf.

Although you can't be arsed into doing the math, you'd rather just bitch and moan about how your favorite set of data is being picked on by the mean e-bullies, while throwing in some flames because this is the internet and there's no incentive not to be a jackass.

Other units can't get that combination with Vantage simply because they don't get things for free or have innate crit.

Yeah, it was overpowered, that's why it's being nerfed.

Now, however, any unit can take Vantage + Cancel and not need adept and significantly reduce the chance of getting hit.

This is a problem? Look at your own tiers, friend. The only 2 GMs above Mia right now are Ike and Haar. Haar has flyer utility. Ike wins offense and durability.

You know what your tiers say to me? "Mia has better offense and better durability than any GM not named Ike."

And you want to buff her.

More than Mia, in fact, since an unaltered Mia still isn't 2HKOing anything aside from swordmasters and sages/bishops and dragonmasters. At least, not until promotion or silver blades. Also, even though Mia now has 36 crit at base and others only have their skill, with the boost to killer weapons many of the other units should be able to 2HKO with killer, while Mia still needs a forge. Meaning, other units should be able to get a better reduction in chance to be hit than Mia. Also, it is harder for Mia to get a forge than before, and even with the crit boost he's applying to the wo dao, she still can't blick something away because she's mostly 4HKOing or worse with a wo dao. I don't remember if he boosted its mt score, but it would be ridiculous to boost it by enough for normal Mia to have any use out of it beyond 3-2 (in other words, I wouldn't boost its mt by enough), or for it to be amazing in 3-P or 3-1. In fact, considering she's lucky to 4HKO Warriors with it now and 5HKOs halbs, the 2x crit means she's even less likely to KO warriors in 3-P and 3-1 now than she was before.

BAW, Mia doesn't ORKO! Hey, Narga. Guess what? Want a list of units that ORKO without a crit in 3-P?

Boy that was a long list.

By the way, other units still have doubling issues, and you can still crit on the second attack, so again, you're getting your panties in a bunch over nothing.

Of course, it's not balanced unless Mia's head and shoulders above other units.

And fire getting buffed? .8 x 3 = 2.4 which I presume rounds down. Not that you answered that question, either, though. I'd quote myself to show where I asked, but since you didn't answer the first time I don't see the point. Anyway, unless she supports with another thing that gives mt, the "buff" to fire consists of an extra 7 hit on top of what she'd get anyway, since he said 2.5 becomes 5. Yippee. What a boost.

Yeah, I forgot that it's hardcoded that Mia's locked to Ike. My bad.

Of course it's overpowered. It is what determines who doubles and who doesn't. The trouble mainly is that the game is far too consistent and no enemies are weighed down by much outside of part 1. Even in part 1 they stop getting weighed down surprisingly quickly. In other games the difference between x and x+1 speed was generally like 15% of the map or less. In this game there are times it is as much as 40% or so. The difference, for example, between 24 and 25 at times is tremendous. The trouble is the lack of variance in enemies. In other games even the same class could vary in speed by as much as 3 points in a single map, and that is even before considering enemies getting weighed down significantly by steel so a unit that doesn't double an enemy using iron probably doubles the ones using steel. Aside from upping everyone's speed to the general plateau there isn't really anything much that can be done about it.

I'm trying to think of a game where same level enemies vary by 3 in Spd other than FE5 (where enemies suck dick anyway), but I can't. FE7 and 8 enemies blow, 6 enemies vary by like 2 at most.

Her HP isn't that bad. 70% growth and similar caps to many other units tells me that. She even catches up to many other units along the way. Then of course her 50 cap shows up, but oh well.

Mia needs to be 20/20/1 to tie base Ike, Shinon, and Gatrie in HP.

20/20/4 to tie base Haar.

20/20/2 to tie base Boyd.

20/13 to tie base Oscar.

Never catches up to Laguz.

"Similar caps"? To who? Sages? SM loses HP to every physical class save Female Bow Paladin.

The only people she beats are people who don't even take counters, and even then she doesn't beat all of them (lolshinon).

Str starts at 17, which is enough to 3HKO most things with steel blade, though she may need 1 point. That's not so bad, really.

List of physical attackers with lower Str than Mia.

Lyre (third worst unit in the game)

Mist (heals)

That's pretty amazing, you know?

Mia's attack is a fucking joke, the ONLY thing keeping her afloat is her speed.

While she consistently has lower str than many other units, being able to 3HKO with meaningful crit and a higher proc with adept means it is "good enough str". And eventually (by promotion or 3-E, whichever comes first) she can ORKO plenty. Whatever you may think of her str, it is eventually "good str", and beforehand is "good enough". Def starts out bad, but between promotion and 4-E it's actually good for a dodger. The 25 cap can be annoying, but it's still fine. I again disagree with your description.

See, this goes back to the point that you don't need to have good stats if your Speed is ridiculous enough. Remember that? This isn't about how good Mia is as a unit, it's about how Speed is too good. "Oh, her Str is 'good enough' because she has 6 more Speed than everyone else. Her low HP/Def don't matter because she has 6 more Spd."

Skill is not a joke stat. She can be more accurate with weapons like silver blade than other units are with normal silver type weapons. That gives her more leeway.

18/0 Boyd with Steel Poleaxe vs. 3-11 SM reinforcement (aka dodgiest generic in Part 3)

168 Hit with A anyone vs. 82 Avoid

86 displayed. Keep in mind that this is

A. The most inaccurate weapon he could use

B. A unit with poor Luck and average Skill

C. A generic with as much as Avoid as 4-E-1 enemies

D. An enemy that Boyd 2HKOs anyway with a weapon with about 15 more hit, so Bio barely matters

Skill is a fucking joke unless you're using the Silver Greatlance.

Her luck starts out above average, compared to the team, and while its growth is only average, she has opportunity for bexp without needing high amounts of it, and thus actually has a hope of getting past 30.

Why would we BEXP a unit to get their luck up? Keep in mind the only stats lower than her Luck growth are Mag and Res.

Oh, and she loses Luck to liek every Laguz and ties/loses to a couple GMs and Part 2 scrubs.

In other words, actual immunity to part 4 sniper crits. Not a great hope, of course, but immunity to halb crits is more than a lot of other units can say. Now, Ulki and his 45 base cev of course is quite awesome and makes hers look kinda bad, but there aren't all that many with 30+ cev. And the difference between doubling with Adept at 30 and doubling with adept at 29 isn't that big. The difference is when she doubles and they don't and it's 30 to 22 or something.

This is only worth bragging about with the Skl change (who doesn't have over 22 Luck in Part 4 that actually gives a shit about the damage taken? liek, Soren, and that's about it), where she's facing crit from Halbs anyway since WTA is +5 Crit.

Actually, if it wasn't for your hatred of Neph you'd probably be best served trying to bring Mia down by arguing Neph for Adept. But Neph is a blindspot for you and smash too so we don't have to worry about that. Basically, though, her stats aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

I quit tiering FE10 months ago. Like... 5-6 months ago? I dunno.

Um, most of the beorc used skill, and only Aether, Sol, Astra, Deadeye, Bane, Lethality were skill/2.

Half at best.

Maybe a few others, but things like Savage (not beorc but still skill%), Impale, Luna, Flare (actually quite amazing if they'd just double), probably others with skill%. I suppose disarm and corrosion would be better off full skill, though.

Even giving you Flare and Corona (which don't even instakill since Magic users are a joke), that's half at best.

Killer Axe now has 12 mt. Boyd has 22 str at base and fire affinity and a 65% str growth. Tell me something, how long do you honestly think it will take before he 2HKOs with killer? Give Boyd Vantage, stick him next to Oscar, have them support, tell me what you get? And you can buy these things eventually. You can start 3-2 with three of them. He's going to have 50 crit at base with the thing. 60 with Oscar next to him. Strap on Cancel with its 18% activation and he's good to go. Now, let's assume Smash actually fixes (or mitigates, anyway) his speed problem, and Boyd is one scary unit. Even without the speed fix I'd say he's >>> Mia (without changes). (Oh, assuming he doesn't cut back on Titania's str, she's pretty hax with this setup, too, only I think her bonds aren't getting more than +5 without causing trouble for Mist and Rhys. Still, her cancel% will be better, so it might balance. And depending on how quickly she promotes she may need to support fire/dark/water.)

First off, Killer weapons didn't magically become 1-2 range.

Second, I like how you're hyping units whose changes haven't even been posted yet.

Money isn't infinite, and I'm not sure about giving a +5 on all 3 things. 2 of them, sure, but all 3? And you still can't use it every battle. But there is a lot of money. Your phrase's sarcastic tone implies you disagree with the idea that there is plenty of money. Are you just going to take potshots, or would you care to actually make a proper response to Int's sig?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCy8MpT45gk

I've noticed you have this problem where everything I say is a conspiracy and this topic is actually trying to undermine a tier list that I stopped posting in about 6 months ago.

The point, my friend, is that forges are overpowered. They had to be nerfed. However, if you want to herald Int's greatness, I suggest you do it in a kneeling position in front of him, since I really don't give a shit what Barragan has to say about much of anything.

Besides, she can still grab a steel blade and 3HKO almost as much, and in a map or two exactly as much.

Yeah, since Mia is the only unit who can use forges.

It's not like they made early crown/Speedwing'd units such as Haar/Gatrie/Titania ORKO everything but SMs/Generals at 1-2 range

It's not like it made strength differences in the DB mean jack all (and as a result, Res differences since half your team was killing mages before they could counter

It's not like they made heavy weapons a complete non-factor in Part 4 since you can literally forge everyone on your team a +5 atk/+15 Crit/+Whatever Hit weapon and laugh as even your 20 Str underleveled piece of shit is 3HKOing (I have actually done this, it's ridiculously bad balancing, Str gaps are a complete nonfactor thanks to Masteries + godforges + Adept).

Get your mind off of how these changes effect Mia for one second and consider and look at what forges did to the entire game. The only offensive stat is Speed. Speed speed speed. If you have enough Speed your offense is amazing. Rank the offense in the GMs from high to low, might as well list how many units a unit doubles on a map. 5 Strength gap? 10? Doesn't matter if you double. Why?

Forges. Forges are too cheap, you get too much money. Can make forges like you buy normal weapons. Solution? Make them more expensive, make them rarer.

Why do Laguz fall behind in offense without skills (Adept/Tear/Rend for Hawks/Ranulf, Resolve for Mordy, NOTE THAT ALL WORK OFF OF SPEED)? You can't forge Strikes. Why is Volug so godly? Doubles, doubles all day long in 3-6 and 3-12 and 3-13. Why does he double? He wins Speed.

Why do magic users fail at offense? Can't forge good tomes. Have shitty Speed. Hey! Look! It's Speed and forges again!

But see. You're so worked up about Mia, you don't see that. You only see "They wanna nerf Mia!" You don't understand. Forges are too good. Speed is too good. This is a *problem*. Yeah, Mia's getting compensation. Not gonna pretend Vantage and Fire affinity are all of it. But you just wanna give her too much.

Like I said, her str isn't as bad as you seem to think. That's just your anti-Mia goggles letting you believe that one. Anyway, the trouble with being able to forge forever is that since she doubles and has innate crit and a lot of skill it just makes for a pretty awesome combination. But that is part of why she is better in the true game.

Her str is bad, it's just that back en realidad it doesn't matter. Why? Forges. Speed.

Well of course it wasn't good if you only had 20 speed compared to 30 or 40 or 50. It is speed based. I understand why he bumped it back to 100%. Personally I'd go with either 100% while at <half health or possibly (speed + maxhp - currenthp)% or something like that. Maybe (level + maxhp - currenthp)% to completely avoid speed, though that does hurt the usefulness of giving it to underleveled units.

It might have to be dropped to FE4 Ambush. Depends.

So yes, speed is quite amazing in the true game. If you recognize how amazing it is, why did you constantly ignore that reality and try to argue Mia and Neph lower than they should be? If speed is so amazing, and you recognize this fact, shouldn't you have been the first to jump on the bandwagon?

HOLY SHIT ON A SHIT SANDWICH WITH SHIT ON TOP, THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE BLOODY TIER LIST.

I'm thinking smash wouldn't be sad about how effectively it nerfs her. Maybe he didn't think about it in advance, maybe he did. I can't get in his head. All I'm saying is that some of these "fixes" hit her harder than the other high tiers, and Smash doesn't even think of her as high tier so it makes things more suspicious that it hits her harder than them. I suppose I should have waited for the changes he makes to the other high tiers, but like all his other endeavours on this board, he's taking his sweet time and I can't be bothered to wait.

I can't believe I'm supposed to be the one that takes this shit too seriously.

Also, your insults are inferior to Int's, I have to say. It's a wonder back on gamefaqs that you guys always pretended his insults weren't way more effective than yours.

Yeah, that's because Int is the only person taken seriously whose posts are a higher % of ad hominem than actual arguments. I could type an essay on Int, but since I'd rather not start a flame war, I won't.

That's kinda out of left field. I am okay with the .8/.8, you know. I disagree with keeping earth in existence, but you haven't even acknowledged my suggestions at how to fix that problem. You spent multiple paragraphs talking about how broken speed can be despite never appearing to argue about characters based on that understanding, and yet you didn't even say anything in defence of leaving earth in existence?

You know what's out of left field? Here, lemme describe this for you

A topic is made about how to balance the game. Characters, difficulty, skills, etc.

OP makes suggestions and starts to list character changes.

Chicken Little cries about a character whose changes haven't even been listed yet is being nerfed, and suggests they get buffed far beyond the target area, on the basis that other characters whose changes haven't been listed might be beyond the target area as well.

Anyway, the only real problem with Earth is that it was 3 times as good as Wind, whereas at least now it's not quite twice as good and Wind might actually solve someone's hit problems.

There is also little reason to double up on earth, now. 35 avo compared to 45 avo is pretty big in some instances, but being able to take an extra +2 mt or +2 def can possibly outweigh it.

Ya that was intended.

Especially since the only unit that really cared about doubling earth up was Zihark. So basically if he fixes Fiona enough to be usable, which I assume he will, that gives 4 earth affinities for the DB to make use of. Also, I assume Tanith should show up earlier, so that's an extra earth for the GMs. You could probably have 14 units with earth affinity supports in part 4 and if you combine them with wind/dark/thunder then they should all have a +35. In the very post of mine you were complaining about I made multiple comments (that were not addressed either) asking what buffs you are giving to the enemies. As it stands now, I don't imagine them hitting much of anything.

I'm pretty sure that masteries are procced before hit/miss (I know Adept is since I can't use a 1-2 range sword with seeing Adept Miss Miss Miss, which would lead me to believe other skills are), meaning enemies should have a ~25-30% min hit rate unless you've got Nihil.

However, I never liked Earth anyway, so I wouldn't mind if Avoid from supports got reduced (With Micaiah's new authority stars, Zi has to be attacked like 30 times to face a 1% chance of death, and if he gets +1 Spd or an Ashera Icon I can't calculate it because Reikken's Chance of Death calculator starts returning NaN at around 172 attacks in a row... Although I don't recall if that was with a thicket or not. Either way, it's retarded, although I think we nerfed his offense to shit to make up for it). Def might need to be slightly reduced too, idk. I don't mind Atk and Hit since they don't scale exponentially with more of it.

Okay, I may not have thought through my changes much. I should have done one or the other. Either +3 to her str base, or her str growth is 60%. Also, her new 25 str cap in tier 2 may be okay, though I still think 26 and 34 may be better than 25 and 33.

Yeah.

Don't forget the strongest weapon she can hold now has 18mt and doesn't appear until 4-E-3. And there are only 3 forge opportunities during the silver period so she's likely stuck with a 16 mt silver blade. At least the skill + 20 crit means 60, which is better than her 55 at this point with a silver forge in the regular game.

Silver Blade is still too good, and with an atk support I'm pretty sure she'd be too good.

But check her normal base str and growth against other units. Honestly, 7mt wo dao with 17str meaning 24 mt in 3-P? And 2x crit? Boosting wo dao's crit ain't helping her there. Then in 3-2 she has maybe 18 str and a support for 19 base mt? Steel Blade (no way is she getting a forge if I can only make one. I'm not sure whose forge I'd make, but I don't think it would be hers) makes 32 mt. There are things she 3HKOs, many things actually, but lots of units ORKO those things and even if she pulls a crit she still takes a counter. It's true she now has 36 base crit, but that is less than the 38 she got in the normal game anyway, and that was 3x. And she's 4 or 5 HKO on generals which now means she's leaving them with plenty more hp. Basically, her proc tanks while most other units are getting 100%s. Now, I suppose he may not adjust the other units to have better speed, but in 3-2 in particular you just need 21 AS for a lot of doubling. Also, my whole assertion that she now needs more str is under the assumption Smash will actually make the others able to double. Even if not immediately. Even if it takes until 3-7 or so. Also, some of them will be better even without doubling. Killer Axe + support?

3-2 is an exception to the rule, the Paladins there are slower than 3-P enemies. I also think smash wanted to up Part 3 enemy stats slightly so that the difficulty is on par with the DB's (perhaps slightly easier due to some more killers?), but I'm not quite sure what that would entail.

Even with the 27 str cap I gave her, she hits 30 after promotion. Unless I missed a major boost to silver blades somewhere, that's only 46 mt (48 with support). Did you assume I'm suddenly supporting her with fire/water/dark? After the many months of Int and I arguing for MiaxIke, why would you use that?

With an atk support and a Silver Blade, she now has a 50% chance to *instantly kill her attacker* with Vantage. Unless Earth is cutting her chance to be hit in half compared to Dark (and even then she wouldn't be 100% ORKOing everything in sight so it still might be an inferior choice), there's really no reason not to.

And why can't Ike support fire/dark/water? He hits 49, she hits 48. Honestly, though, in 4-1 it takes all of the 44 mt she can eke out with a non-mt A support and 26 str just to KO the things in 4-1. Lots of units can ORKO by this point. The difference between 44 and 48 is a little bit of extra damage to generals. Okay, a fair amount, but still not ORKOing them. Besides, I was assuming Ike and Titania and etc would get a +2 on their tier 2 str caps as well. Anyway, you need to stop comparing stats in a void because it doesn't help much. So after all of part 3 sucking in the new game, she finally gets to ORKO stuff, and assuming the enemy gets some boosts she needs a little extra mt to ORKO. If they aren't boosted a little then I suppose the 25 str cap in tier 2 making 28 str in tier 3 would be sufficient, though in order to actually ORKO you are kinda forcing her to support with fire/dark/water depending on what you do with enemies. And Ragnell still has two range. And he still has a significant durability advantage. If her durability disadvantage isn't important enough for it to balance her offence here, why should it be in the normal game? Just asking.

I'm like 99% sure that Mia's getting some sort of Str buff, it's just not to the point that she's steamrolling regular Ike. Also, keep in mind that with the Wo Dao she's still got like 70% crit vs. Warriors, so that's like a 50% chance to ORKO without Adept, which is better than what other people can say. She's still the best vs. Sages/SMs, and still can Wyrmslayer to stomp Dragons.

And why would I let her keep Vantage? Even if we go by the whole innate vantage means other units get half effect or whatever, they just end up getting the Vantage units had in the normal game anyway, and without innate crit and cancel that wasn't particularly helpful there.

I'm pretty sure the ambience Vantage isn't Spd%. I think it's either FE4 or 50% chance.

And since that's part 4 by then, I'm giving Vantage to Elincia. I suppose she could be buffed or debuffed and if she's buffed enough she may not need it or if she's debuffed enough then she won't use it as well, but as she is now I'm thinking stun (even the modified version) + 100% vantage + cancel + imbue/adept/x-foe + canto will make her quite amazing. So much so that it is likely more efficient for her to have Vantage. Now, it is true you have 3 by now, but I've already shown how Boyd can be disgusting with it. There is no reason to bring up her 100% Vantage as if it makes her broken or not nerfed.

That Boyd was hypothetical (and also needs brutha Oscar and can't do it at 1-2 range), he won't be 2HKOing everything in sight with Killer. >_>

What, 30% of them in part 4 after not being particularly good for part 3? Part 3 is longer, you know. She needs a period of brokenness at this rate anyway.

The problem is that with both she's broken all game. She still has a 50% chance to double crit with the Wo Dao, which is gonna wreck anything but a General (and outright kill enemies like Warriors and Sages).

I'd prefer balanced throughout the game, where she is basically even with them throughout part 3 if you can manage it. Anyway, if you are going to complain about her ability to 2HKO in part 4 with 51 mt, I'd take a look at how much she 2HKOs in a normal game in part 4. By the way, the answer there is: everything but generals and bosses(auras included) and red dragons. (well, if she is supportless in 4-E-2 since I suppose her with Ike then she misses out there). So I suppose since you are afraid of her using a skill she may not even get to keep (Vantage) that means you'll actually nerf her str beyond how bad you think it is now to avoid her actually 2HKOing ever.

I sincerely doubt that your Mia has 48 attack in 4-1, which she would need to get Halbs. With 20 from weapon+supports, she'd need to be Level 20/20/5-6. I dunno about you, but the only people that promote before Part 4 for me are Titania, Haar, and whatever chumps that I early Crown, plus the people with Paragon will promote. But gain 4-5 levels on top of that? Unlikely. She needs to be 20/20/7-8 to get the Halbs/Wars in 4-4 (and needs capped Str for some of the Warriors, so liek 20/20/12). She needs capped Str and a 20 Might weapon (so Vague Katti or a coin'd Silver) to get 4-E-2 Halbs and Warriors.

With the proposed buffs, she 2HKO 4-1 Generals, and gives her attack comparable to standard Nailah in 4-4 with a normal Silver Blade. This means that with a forge, she'll also be getting those Generals up with Oliver that not even base Nailah ORKOs. And with Vantage, that's a 50% chance to take no damage at all before Avoid is factored in.

Oh, and base str becomes 18, base defence becomes 16, str growth up to 50%, spd growth down to 60%, base hp +3, base spd -2.

Or something.

You do seem to think her hp, str, def are oh so bad. If that is so, then to balance her she surely needs more of it. Maybe I gave her too much (and I admit, a 20 str base and a 60% growth and a 27/36 cap are probably too much in that combination) but you can't honestly think with your other changes she'd actually be even with the other units as she is now. Unless they all get significantly nerfed to the point where nobody ORKOs and they are all ~4 to 5 HKOd by everything. Maybe then she'd be average. Except unless you actually drop her str base or str growth she's still going to be 2HKOing so many things in part 4 and Vantage with her crit and astra is going to be just as dirty at 44mt in 4-1 as it is at 51mt. I suppose with no Vague Katti and a weaker Tempest though she will soon stop 2HKOing. Which should make you happy. Of course, if your other units are ORKOing then you've done exactly what I predicted. I'd like to see the changes you guys make that prevents everybody else from ORKOing in part 4. Wow the royals are going to be interesting.

She is getting buffs. However, smash likes to watch people squirm and I'm not the one with the file with all the changes.

Super late Edit: Noticed I missed something

Edited November 10, 2009 by Paperblade

[Zkirsche]

As opposed to 100% vantage 30% cancel? 9 > 30 now?

That's not what he meant. With the introduction of vantage being 100%, other users have decent chances of pulling a successful Vantage + Cancel combo, except they can benefit more because Mia doesn't 2HKO.

Yeah, since Mia is the only unit who can use forges.

He said a Steel blade, not a forge.

BAW, Mia doesn't ORKO! Hey, Narga. Guess what? Want a list of units that ORKO without a crit in 3-P?

Yeah, I forgot that it's hardcoded that Mia's locked to Ike. My bad.

Sorry, Narga, but I have to agree with Paperblade on this one. If we're balancing out units, one unit shouldn't be such a better choice for an Ike support than another that we should assume said Ike support on that unit. Remember, they're not trying to just change some things but keep the positions in the tier lists the same, they're trying to get all the units in the game to around the same part of the tier list (upper mid).

All I'm saying is that some of these "fixes" hit her harder than the other high tiers

In the tier list here, she's higher than many of the higher tiers. Thus, she needs to be nerfed more than them.

Edited November 8, 2009 by kirsche

[Progenitus]

Jill

Problems

Jill has two problems that hinder her rather badly. The first is being unable to double reliably in part 1. The second is being unable to double reliably in part 4, because of her low 2nd tier spd cap. This doesn't leave a really big incentive to train Jill with her poor str and average HP/def. Caps in general are going to increase, so that's already fixed.

Changes

- +2 to spd base.

- Available to fight in 1-8.

Results

Jill will now double more easily throughout the game, and being available in 1-8 will also get her a bit more exp, as well as being awesome in the swamp. Low str sucks, but she's mounted so that helps alleviate the problem.

[Progenitus]

Zihark

Problems

With Micaiah now getting authority stars, Zihark needs a nerf. He's going to be far too dodgy with offense that's better than everyone in the DB (his part 4 will probably be fine after the forge/adept nerf). We decided to keep Zihark dodgy (make Mia the offensive SM), so his offense needs a more thorough nerf.

Changes

- -2 str base

Results

The reduction in str keeps his offense in check so he's not ballin out of control.

[nflchamp]

So, since I neglected to read this up until now, I'm just going to clarify. The goal is that every character will have equal usefulness in every chapter they're in. If that's right, this turns the tier list into an availability fest, even if smash and paperblade don't believe it. Read this and tell me that it isn't true.

Edit: Make a new thread to talk about the linked post, if you really want to.

Edited November 10, 2009 by nflchamp

[Progenitus]

So, since I neglected to read this up until now, I'm just going to clarify. The goal is that every character will have equal usefulness in every chapter they're in. If that's right, this turns the tier list into an availability fest, even if smash and paperblade don't believe it. Read this and tell me that it isn't true.

Edit: Make a new thread to talk about the linked post, if you really want to.

Nah, I don't think I need to make a separate topic for it. I can finish this in a few posts. SOmeone else can make a new topic if they want to.

Negative utility doesn't spawn because you're performing worse than the average unit. Rather, negative utility is when the performance output does not exceed the resource input, in most cases the resources being kills/EXP (though in most cases you are weighed against the average unit anyway).

In your example, Edward would be doing things, or wahtever, and do it really badly because he's lolgarbage, and then eats up resources in the process. His bad performance does not justify all the kills poured into him. That's how he ends up with negative utility.

Ike can't fight in 1-4 or any DB chapter, but he's not taking any resources in the process. That's how he's neutral.

You can, in fact, use Edward less, to the point where his performance output equals his resource input. For example, instead of having Edward be an active tank and attacker, he does a couple of potshots and once in awhile tanks if absolutely necessary (like an enemy would otherwise reach Laura). In the process he takes a small amount of kills. He does a small amount of work, and took only a small amount of resources. So he ends up with about neutral utility.

But, how exactly do you measure Edward's usefulness? How many kills could you give to Edward before you say "nope, his performance of occasional potshots and face tanking does not justify the kills" and he goes from neutral utility to negative? There's enough bickering as is on just even kill distribution; we don't need to make it more complicated.

Plus, pretty much anyone can just do small work. Even crap like Lyre can shove or something and make themselves useful. That doesn't really tell us anything about their performance.

Thus, generally Edward/*insert crap unit* gets the same kills as the other units you're using, which means his performance has to be weighed against them. In other words, that's how we usually end up with Edward being weighed against the average unit.

[Paperblade]

That's not what he meant. With the introduction of vantage being 100%, other users have decent chances of pulling a successful Vantage + Cancel combo, except they can benefit more because Mia doesn't 2HKO.

What? The line I quoted didn't mention other units at all.

He said a Steel blade, not a forge.

I was talking generally about how forges are broken, and he assumed I was talking specifically about Mia. =/

Edit: Apparently we ARE remaking enemy stats, but we're doing it after class caps get remade, which makes me think we should have done that first so that we could have balanced PC stats around enemy stats.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Paperblade

[Narga_Rocks]

Zihark

Problems

With Micaiah now getting authority stars, Zihark needs a nerf. He's going to be far too dodgy with offense that's better than everyone in the DB (his part 4 will probably be fine after the forge/adept nerf). We decided to keep Zihark dodgy (make Mia the offensive SM), so his offense needs a more thorough nerf.

Changes

- -2 str base

Results

The reduction in str keeps his offense in check so he's not ballin out of control.

Poor Zihark. I know you are trying to balance, and with Micaiah's stars he may actually have a more reasonable dodge chance in part 1 (aside from 1-E). I can see the -2 to str base as being necessary (although he mostly needed the brave sword to ORKO in the original anyway). But his str was already lackluster in part 4. I'm thinking a boost to his str growth. I know they have an extra chapter now, and with 3-6 and 3-12 being rout and more laguz in the new 3-9 he should be around level xx/20/1 in part 4 like the rest of the GMs, but now that Micaiah has stars and earth x earth may be more attractive, or even earth x thunder with Jill thanks to her increased availability and +4 avo instead of +2.5 avo, he's not likely getting a +mt support. So I should think he needs to get back to his normal game str by 20/5 or so. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like the str reduction is too much.

Miccy? Your entire Miccy comparison rested solely on her ability to equip Resolve and get a support with someone who doesn't even want to support her. She's now getting Resolve in Part 3 at the earliest, aka OHKO land, meaning the only time this matters in the slightest is 4-E, which is nice, but in case you missed the memoes, masteries can't miss.

Are all masteries like that? Even so, they have to activate. Anyway, resolve was 1-E only, and did I miss something? Is Taur's resolve locked now? I didn't see any reduction in her capacity in the thing on Micaiah, so maybe it was elsewhere. Also, I don't see what Nolan would have against supporting Micaiah. She gets better avo than Zihark with it and sooner. If Zihark is worth getting earth, why wouldn't Micaiah? Also, with the new cut to Zihark he'll even miss out on multiple ORKOs with a brave sword. Micaiah won't (aside from 17+ AS enemies). She'll quickly beat Ed's avo, Leo only gets a damage boost (which was good), Nolan is losing str and def (which makes him want Micaiah even more, actually, for the damage, though it also makes him want Ed/Aran/Leo more) but gaining no speed, I'm actually not sure Laura can promote by 3-6 even with a higher base level and higher low leveled staff exp gains (though it is possible), Sothe is quickly not doubling anymore thanks to a -4 spd base (can he still get direct transfers? because those rock now), Ilyana is still not doubling, Aran (really should have got +1 lck but that's not important now) doesn't get much out of it, Jill and Zihark show up when he could have a B Micaiah already. I think Micaiah x Nolan is a very attractive pairing. The mastery thing hurts a bit, but it isn't like any of the other dodgers don't also have that problem, and she isn't OHKOd by much anyway. And she can stand next to Nolan for half effect Nihil if it isn't removed from him. Or whatever effect it would have.

Anyway, that wasn't the thing I wanted answers to.

Question (not that you read my posts, so maybe PB can answer)

Also, if Shine is forgeable when the Arc spells are (which should be when the silvers are), then 9 mt can be forged. Though you've made them more expensive and made them more rare. Actually, what about part 4? Is it still only 2 forge opportunities in 6 chapters? And can you then only make 2 forges in that time? And just one forge at the start of 4-E and then no more? That's a grand total of 3 silver forges (or arc or shine). It also means the DB can only make one steel (or el spell) forge in all of part 1 and thus only get one in all of part 3.

I'm not pulling the other ones for you. And credit where it is due you did answer a bunch here.

As opposed to 100% vantage 30% cancel? 9 > 30 now?

Pikablu, is that you?

Um, did you read the stuff on Boyd and how he makes better use of it? It is good to make Vantage more usable, since she was like the only unit that can make decent use out of it in part 3 before. However, that just means that 0 < 9 and it is technically a nerf. This one is probably a good one, though, since if we are trying to balance then sole rights to a skill (or only unit that actually gets a significant benefit) = bad, I suppose. It's just, don't act like it's a buff for her.

Sigh. If Mia is 3HKOing

100% Vantage + 30% Cancel = 30% chance to take no damage

100% Vantage + 30% Adept + 20% Crit (+15 from skill change - 15 from forge nerf) = 6% chance to take no damage

Chance of at least 1 happening: 34.2%

30% Vantage + 30% Cancel = 9% chance to take no damage

30% Vantage + 20% displayed Crit + 30% Adept (both required) = 6% chance to take no damage

30% Vantage + 20% Crit = 6% chance to take no damage

30% Vantage + 30% Adept + 30% Cancel = 9% chance to take no damage

Chance of at least one happening happening = ~27%

Apparently 27 > 34 now, so this is a nerf.

Although you can't be arsed into doing the math, you'd rather just bitch and moan about how your favorite set of data is being picked on by the mean e-bullies, while throwing in some flames because this is the internet and there's no incentive not to be a jackass.

And yet you didn't do the math on Boyd, did you? Also, why am I giving her adept now? I know if she gets Adept + Cancel + Vantage she'll have better now than before. I'm saying I don't have as much of a reason to do so. Granted, she'll 2HKO swordies before long, and eventually 2HKO others. Which knocks her chance of not getting attacked by certain enemies into the stratosphere. But until part 4 her chance should be lower or similar to multiple other units, and hence: not a buff. Granted, though, she can strap on a Storm Sword and still have 40 - cev crit and still have adept and still have cancel and Boyd would lose the crit from a killer since he'd be using hand axe. But there aren't really all that many 2 rangers and unless Mia is on her own they'd probably attack a unit that can't counter anyway.

Yeah, it was overpowered, that's why it's being nerfed.

Vantage itself was not overpowered. Mia had basically sole possession of the skill because of how it worked. Now anyone can get it. It is technically a nerf of her, not a nerf of the skill.

This is a problem? Look at your own tiers, friend. The only 2 GMs above Mia right now are Ike and Haar. Haar has flyer utility. Ike wins offense and durability.

You know what your tiers say to me? "Mia has better offense and better durability than any GM not named Ike."

And you want to buff her.

Um, take away everything unique about her and she ends up with less str and def than anybody else. So, with the changes, everything that pushed her that high is gone. Well, all she has left is innate crit. That's why I figure a buff is okay. She basically falls to < Neph at this point (well, maybe). Which might be okay depending on what other changes are made, or it might not be.

BAW, Mia doesn't ORKO! Hey, Narga. Guess what? Want a list of units that ORKO without a crit in 3-P?

Um, she'll fall to like near 0% ORKO. That's going to be under pretty much everybody, unless he nerfs the whole group beyond recognition. And she's got less durability in those chapters. Basically, she's looking at mid tier in 3-P and 3-1 while everybody else should be bumped up or down to upper mid based on what smash said earlier. Of course, wo dao applies a 50% chance of double critting warriors, so a +1 to her str base probably pushes her beyond most other units on one enemy type. That could be an issue. And it isn't just about 3-P anyway.

Boy that was a long list.

By the way, other units still have doubling issues, and you can still crit on the second attack, so again, you're getting your panties in a bunch over nothing.

That might be enough to save her, but I doubt it. He'd have to nerf Boyd, except Boyd is already at the bottom of upper mid, and in smash's tier list Boyd is Mid. Hence, Boyd needs a buff. Therefore, Boyd for one will quickly be 2HKOing just like normal. He can now do this with a killer axe much sooner since it has +2 mt over normal and he could support fire/water/dark to speed it up even more, or Oscar for making the +10 crit more readily available. Mia is now < Boyd because he has better offence (despite her doubling and having two shots at a crit) and he can take Vantage and have a better chance at not getting hit. I looked at that and thought the logical conclusion is that when you strip away everything that made Mia good you now need to do something to prevent her falling below the target.

Of course, it's not balanced unless Mia's head and shoulders above other units.

Fun though that would be, no, I don't think that. Much as I'd like to give her Shooting Star instead of Astra, I don't need her to be that good.

Yeah, I forgot that it's hardcoded that Mia's locked to Ike. My bad.

Actually, these changes prevent that. Which is good. There is no reason for her to be far and away the #1 candidate for an Ike support in a blanced version. I would, however, like to point out that people readily assume Zihark gets either Nolan or Volug just because he wants it. How is that any different? As near as I can tell, the normal game Mia has a much better claim to Ike than Zihark's on Nolan or Volug.

Anyway, wind/heaven/thunder/light/earth. Though there aren't many heavens, obviously. Question: why would she take fire? We know she doesn't have the durability other units have without at least getting her def or avo, even if it isn't earth. She's passable, of course, since she has decent avo and after a few levels avoids almost all potential 2HKOs (I mean they become 3 because of more hp/def). But with all the wind/thunder/light running around she may as well take one of those. I suppose water is her best non-earth option (since she now has no real claim to it), but that is just Mist at first, then Brom as well, then Mordy. I suppose with some of the other potential changes it might make those viable options for Mia, and a +5 str, +2 def would be useful. But there are no real guarantees here. +2 is just as possible as +5, if not moreso. Hence, it is not a big buff.

I'm trying to think of a game where same level enemies vary by 3 in Spd other than FE5 (where enemies suck dick anyway), but I can't. FE7 and 8 enemies blow, 6 enemies vary by like 2 at most.

Well, my 3 point statement is only really true if you consider soldiers and halbs the same class, or myrm swordmaster, etc. Though I think in rare cases a halb is enough levels over another halb on the same map for a 3 point difference. Otherwise the variance comes solely from some enemies having heavier weapons than others. Which is the strength of my point. That's generally where the 15% compared to 40% is coming from. More unpromoted enemies and more enemies weighted down by weapons.

Mia needs to be 20/20/1 to tie base Ike, Shinon, and Gatrie in HP.

20/20/4 to tie base Haar.

20/20/2 to tie base Boyd.

20/13 to tie base Oscar.

Never catches up to Laguz.

"Similar caps"? To who? Sages? SM loses HP to every physical class save Female Bow Paladin.

The only people she beats are people who don't even take counters, and even then she doesn't beat all of them (lolshinon).

40 hp cap in tier 2 matches Zihark and Edward. Also is only 5 off all those 45hp guys. There are a lot of those. Tier 3 it becomes a bigger problem when there are more 60s involved, but there are still a fair amount of 55s. I said similar, not the same. 5hp off isn't a big deal. 10 is. Also Oscar hits 42 at level 20. Mia caps at 20/10, at which point Oscar has 50.5. She overtakes Titania assuming she hits level 14 before Titania promotes. Then when she hits 20/10 she'll have 50 and Titania doesn't reach it until 20/14 or so. Keeps a small advantage on Nephenee most of the time, too. Obviously Heather. Considering level difference she should spend a fair amount of time with more HP than the CRK (save Kieran). Jill doesn't hit 50 hp until 20/20/16. Tauroneo doesn't beat her until he gets past 20/10. Beats Elincia in hp handily. Zihark takes until 20/13 or 20/14 to tie.

List of physical attackers with lower Str than Mia.

Lyre (third worst unit in the game)

Mist (heals)

That's pretty amazing, you know?

Wow. Missed the point completely. As long as she 2RKOs and the other units like Oscar and Titania etc 2RKO, her str is fine. You are great at missing the point. In fact, Oscar often 3HKOs and doesn't double. That's a far cry from 3HKOing and doubling. Yet he has a little more str most of the time. Woot. Mia's str is not horrible. Now, spd as you say plays a part in making 17 str passable, but 3HKOing vs. 3HKOing means we don't have to worry about her str.

Mia's attack is a fucking joke, the ONLY thing keeping her afloat is her speed.

Or, you know, having the same #RKO as the other units but having higher proc rates? That not occur to you? Speed making her double and them not is a large part of it, and why she isn't so great in NM. But her str is good enough. If it was less than it is, there wouldn't be 3HKOing, making it bad.

See, this goes back to the point that you don't need to have good stats if your Speed is ridiculous enough. Remember that? This isn't about how good Mia is as a unit, it's about how Speed is too good. "Oh, her Str is 'good enough' because she has 6 more Speed than everyone else. Her low HP/Def don't matter because she has 6 more Spd."

The only way it wouldn't be good enough is if everybody else ORKOd while she 2RKOd or worse. However that comes to be, as far as the game goes her str is fine.

18/0 Boyd with Steel Poleaxe vs. 3-11 SM reinforcement (aka dodgiest generic in Part 3)

168 Hit with A anyone vs. 82 Avoid

86 displayed. Keep in mind that this is

A. The most inaccurate weapon he could use

B. A unit with poor Luck and average Skill

C. A generic with as much as Avoid as 4-E-1 enemies

D. An enemy that Boyd 2HKOs anyway with a weapon with about 15 more hit, so Bio barely matters

Skill is a fucking joke unless you're using the Silver Greatlance.

Never miss > rarely miss. Bio proof (or nearly so) > the possibility of pulling 66 listed if bio is badly against him. But in the normal game forges exist, so it only matters for specialty weapons or silver special weapons in 3-E and 4-P/1 before silver forges are available. And pre hand axe forge range weapons. For example, her skl allows her to not suck with a storm sword.

Why would we BEXP a unit to get their luck up? Keep in mind the only stats lower than her Luck growth are Mag and Res.

Oh, and she loses Luck to liek every Laguz and ties/loses to a couple GMs and Part 2 scrubs.

Um, why aren't you bexping? If you have her capped 3 things (hp, skl, spd) and it is 3-7 and you finish with 80+ exp on her (like you should be trying to do with everyone when it doesn't get in the way of efficiency or promoting in a decent amound of time), you give her bexp. This gives you str, def, and lck. Lck isn't the goal, but it is a side effect. One wonders what your goals are when you play the game. So Mia should have at least 25 luck by 20/1. Ike can't boost his luck through bexp, so she beats his luck by like 9. Oscar can boost his luck but he's not getting past 25 anyway. Titania could get lck every level and by 20/3 have 25 luck on the dot. Soren's luck is almost beyond hope. Shinon isn't likely getting past 20 even with some opportunity to boost his lck with bexp. Haar has a higher base level, 5 lower base, the same growth, and can't boost his lck through bexp until he caps def. Brom's luck starts low, but it does get quite insane later on. Even so, his 20/1 average is 25.6, and while each level of bexp likely boosts that by .3, I question the wisdom of using bexp on Brom even after capping hp and def since it boosts lck, str, skl. You could maybe get Neph's luck to 25 by 20/1 with bexp, but she doesn't have the availability while skl/spd/res are capped to get 9 levels of bexp without having to pay for multiple levels in a base. Hence expensive. Lethe has the same luck as Mia's base, only she takes forever to level and only has a 45% growth. Mordy has an 80% growth but starts at 15, and he'd need to be level 26 when Mia is level 20/1 to hit 25 luck, assuming we force luck on each level. Mist can't really make use of her luck, and it takes some time for her to get more than Mia thanks to starting 2 lower. Still, by the time Mia hits 20/1 Mist could be level 15 without too much strain, probably, so she could have 25.8 or more, maybe. Rolf has a 13 base and 35% growth and only 6 extra levels of growth. Also bexp won't boost that until after level 17. Boyd hits 25 luck at 20/19 and bexp ain't helping that one either. Gats has a 15 luck base and 30% growth, and probably gets crowned early. Rhys, yeah she's not coming close there. Ranulf has 23 luck and a 55% growth, but is also probably not getting a level until part 4. Kyza hits 25 luck at level 40. Even if you give him luck every level, he's hitting 25 at level 29. Lyre needs level 26 assuming luck on each level, and to hit 25 luck normally it takes level 35. Reyson, Janaff, Ulki win for luck. Sigrun wins. Tanith loses, considering 22 luck in 3-11 with a 35% growth and only 4 levels to promotion. The CRK are too underleveld to hit 25 luck anytime soon, and the best of them (Marcia) has worse luck than any of them.

So which GMs are she losing to that aren't Reyson/Janaff/Ulki and actually matter? Did you even look at the luck stats of the GMs?

This is only worth bragging about with the Skl change (who doesn't have over 22 Luck in Part 4 that actually gives a shit about the damage taken? liek, Soren, and that's about it), where she's facing crit from Halbs anyway since WTA is +5 Crit.

I think you fail to realize that they get +15 crit not +10 crit. And they mostly have ~30 crit. 29 to 31 starting in 4-3 anyway. Also, I'm talking the true game, not Smash's. Also, you completely ignored how she's getting more than 22 luck unless the player is an idiot. Same reason Shinon has more than 26 str at 20/1, and Oscar has more than 25 str at 20/1. Remember, the bexp isn't for the luck, it is for the str and def. The luck is a side benefit. That doesn't, however, mean that it can be ignored. Just saying we aren't cutting her off at 90 exp for the sake of a point of luck. Anyway, with smash's changes she'll face crit from halbs for a bit since in 4-1 they have 22 crit, which would become 27 crit with the weapon triangle thing. But that is only smash's changes. Anyway, she's not immune to snipers immediately. It takes a while.

I quit tiering FE10 months ago. Like... 5-6 months ago? I dunno.

And the world rejoiced. Except you still take shots in other topics as it relates to tier positions and ideas. And you never bring up Neph when we talk about Mia and Adept.

Half at best.

I could count, but you are probably right. So not "most". Just "half". though the numbers of each user of the skill would need to be considered and not just the number of skills that state skill% compared to the number that state (skill/2)%.

Even giving you Flare and Corona (which don't even instakill since Magic users are a joke), that's half at best.

Oh well. I forget your original statement. And sadly flare doesn't always OHKO, sure, but it does sometimes OHKO. Also, Micaiah most certainly OHKOs armors with thani when she coronas. Even Sanaki can potentially have the magic to pull off a OHKO on 4-E-1 Generals with Flare.

Killer Axe now has 12 mt. Boyd has 22 str at base and fire affinity and a 65% str growth. Tell me something, how long do you honestly think it will take before he 2HKOs with killer? Give Boyd Vantage, stick him next to Oscar, have them support, tell me what you get? And you can buy these things eventually. You can start 3-2 with three of them. He's going to have 50 crit at base with the thing. 60 with Oscar next to him. Strap on Cancel with its 18% activation and he's good to go. Now, let's assume Smash actually fixes (or mitigates, anyway) his speed problem, and Boyd is one scary unit. Even without the speed fix I'd say he's >>> Mia (without changes). (Oh, assuming he doesn't cut back on Titania's str, she's pretty hax with this setup, too, only I think her bonds aren't getting more than +5 without causing trouble for Mist and Rhys. Still, her cancel% will be better, so it might balance. And depending on how quickly she promotes she may need to support fire/dark/water.)

First off, Killer weapons didn't magically become 1-2 range.

Second, I like how you're hyping units whose changes haven't even been posted yet.

It seems to me that he won't be made worse. Also, Mia doesn't get 1-2 range either. Or at least, I'd rather not leave a wind edge on her in 3-3 or whatever in the hopes that she cancels (since adept or crits certainly aren't doing anything with a wind edge.) The point is merely that Mia gets no claim to Vantage. Also, check the bold. I assume you were talking about how I'm assuming he gets a speed boost so I hype. Even if that isn't what you meant, why would smash cut back on Boyd's str?

Anyway, I suppose you could start forging wind edges in mid part 3, but they are kinda weak compared to hand axes anyway and it may be more worth forging those instead, limited forges and all. One Storm Sword in 3-2, one in 3-6 (Heather can steal), one whenever Tanith shows up (unless her starting items get altered). Not sure that is enough to warrant not letting Boyd use Vantage at 1 range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCy8MpT45gk

I've noticed you have this problem where everything I say is a conspiracy and this topic is actually trying to undermine a tier list that I stopped posting in about 6 months ago.

The point, my friend, is that forges are overpowered. They had to be nerfed. However, if you want to herald Int's greatness, I suggest you do it in a kneeling position in front of him, since I really don't give a shit what Barragan has to say about much of anything.

I remember watching the whole on Just for Laughs. I think that's the one that has the "Jalapeno on a Stick". Funny stuff. And the little mini version of the ventriloquist as a dummy of the dummy.

The point is that I don't need to bother with proving the GMs have money. Now, was I wrong about your phrasing? Were you not being sarcastic about the money situation? If you agree that they have the money for multiple forges, fine. Then my paragraph there wasn't relevant at all. Well, aside from stating that I don't think you can stick full boosts to all 3 things on all forges. That is potentially relevant to someone, even if not you.

Besides, she can still grab a steel blade and 3HKO almost as much, and in a map or two exactly as much.

Yeah, since Mia is the only unit who can use forges.

I bolded it this time. Does that help?

It's not like they made early crown/Speedwing'd units such as Haar/Gatrie/Titania ORKO everything but SMs/Generals at 1-2 range

And I'm glad those things are there. What is your point?

It's not like it made strength differences in the DB mean jack all (and as a result, Res differences since half your team was killing mages before they could counter

It's not like they made heavy weapons a complete non-factor in Part 4 since you can literally forge everyone on your team a +5 atk/+15 Crit/+Whatever Hit weapon and laugh as even your 20 Str underleveled piece of shit is 3HKOing (I have actually done this, it's ridiculously bad balancing, Str gaps are a complete nonfactor thanks to Masteries + godforges + Adept).

What's the point? ORKOing is usually better than 50% ORKOing. 3HKOing > 4HKOing, even with both doubing and having masteries, simply because Adept exists. Zihark can't 3HKO some things. I ran the numbers in another post. Assuming reasonable levels anyway. Generals, for example, in 4-E-1 he needs to be overleveled and have the Vague Katti just to pull it off. If Zihark can't pull a 3HKO, I'm not sure what units you are talking about. Str differences do mean something.

Get your mind off of how these changes effect Mia for one second and consider and look at what forges did to the entire game. The only offensive stat is Speed. Speed speed speed. If you have enough Speed your offense is amazing. Rank the offense in the GMs from high to low, might as well list how many units a unit doubles on a map. 5 Strength gap? 10? Doesn't matter if you double. Why?

Forges. Forges are too cheap, you get too much money. Can make forges like you buy normal weapons. Solution? Make them more expensive, make them rarer.

Okay. I buy the changes, really. It's just the question of what Mia is left with. Other units when you strip these things away are hit less hard. Oh, and I still think that they may be too rare now. I'm mostly focusing on the 1 steel forge for the DB for all of part 3 and the 3 silver forges in the entire game. I understand preventing forges from being practically free as far as opportunity cost goes, but there is a possibility of the modification going overboard.

Why do Laguz fall behind in offense without skills (Adept/Tear/Rend for Hawks/Ranulf, Resolve for Mordy, NOTE THAT ALL WORK OFF OF SPEED)? You can't forge Strikes. Why is Volug so godly? Doubles, doubles all day long in 3-6 and 3-12 and 3-13. Why does he double? He wins Speed.

Why do magic users fail at offense? Can't forge good tomes. Have shitty Speed. Hey! Look! It's Speed and forges again!

But see. You're so worked up about Mia, you don't see that. You only see "They wanna nerf Mia!" You don't understand. Forges are too good. Speed is too good. This is a *problem*. Yeah, Mia's getting compensation. Not gonna pretend Vantage and Fire affinity are all of it. But you just wanna give her too much.

Now that she gets nothing, she is worse. So I want her to have more str and def. What's wrong with that? And resolve doesn't technically work off of speed, it affects speed, but I know that is just nitpicking. Anyway, you might as well make killer tomes if you want everything to be equal. And brave tomes. It kinda takes away from the uniqueness, though. I just found it funny that Mia gets hit the hardest is all. Okay, more accurately, I found it funny that Mia got effectively nerfed without needing to reduce a single stat point, whereas to nerf Gatrie and Ike and Titania he'll likely need to knock down some stats. Haar too, of course. I don't remember: Did I say I thought he'd do even more to Mia than he's already done? ie: reduce some of her stats?

Her str is bad, it's just that back en realidad it doesn't matter. Why? Forges. Speed.

Why not just say reality? Anyway, it isn't forges at all. They give crit, sure, but they only give 1 more mt than a steel blade. Doubling vs. not doubling is the key, of course. But bad would be like 14 str at that point or something. 17 str is passable. And by 3-E speed isn't even her saviour anymore. She'll have the str (before promotion) to grab a silver blade and ORKO all but generals (and use a wyrmslayer for the wyverns). If she promotes by 3-11, she can just use a steel blade and ORKO some paladins and warriors in 3-11. Most of them, even. Then in 4-4 her str is saved by Vague Katti and Tempest, which also aren't forges. Then in 4-E-1 she 3HKOs with a silver blade, so all the forge is doing is allow her to get boosted crit. I'll admit, if she didn't double or if everybody else doubled then her str would be poor to average, considering she 3HKOs and Oscar 3HKOs and a few others 3HKO. Units like Titania 2HKO, so their str is "good", but as long as Mia has the same #HKO as a bunch of other units, having 17 vs. their 20 isn't exactly enough to make it count as "bad" if theirs does not also count as "bad".

It might have to be dropped to FE4 Ambush. Depends.

I like the 100% all the time for fun purposes, of course, but for balance I wonder if fe4 Ambush isn't better.

HOLY SHIT ON A SHIT SANDWICH WITH SHIT ON TOP, THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE BLOODY TIER LIST.

Sigh. My comments are about consistency.

In this topic: A happens.

In another topic: B happens.

A and B are, from all appearances, mutually exclusive.

Conclusion: Inconsistent.

Understand now?

And I know it is technically not relevant for this particular topic, but B already happened before and since A happened here, I figured the comment would need to be here.

I can't believe I'm supposed to be the one that takes this shit too seriously.

I don't get it. Has someone said you take things too seriously?

Yeah, that's because Int is the only person taken seriously whose posts are a higher % of ad hominem than actual arguments. I could type an essay on Int, but since I'd rather not start a flame war, I won't.

They really aren't. Although he frequently says people are doing dumb things, he's certainly not saying they are dumb therefore they are wrong. I see a lot of why they are wrong, though. With data from the game and stuff like that.

You know what's out of left field? Here, lemme describe this for you

A topic is made about how to balance the game. Characters, difficulty, skills, etc.

OP makes suggestions and starts to list character changes.

Chicken Little cries about a character whose changes haven't even been listed yet is being nerfed, and suggests they get buffed far beyond the target area, on the basis that other characters whose changes haven't been listed might be beyond the target area as well.

Anyway, the only real problem with Earth is that it was 3 times as good as Wind, whereas at least now it's not quite twice as good and Wind might actually solve someone's hit problems.

It's nice +15 hit is better than +8 hit by a fair amount. And +12 avo instead of +8 avo. Certainly closer to earth's +23 avo and heaven's +27 hit. It still basically makes someone unhittable. Smash had to drop Zihark's mt for him to see Zihark as not overpowered. I disagree and think Zihark needs more str (at least later on), but earth is clearly still really powerful. Take Nolan, for example. I'd rather see him get more str or a higher spd base and a slightly lower spd growth (or both), but if you do that while earth still exists it would be too much. Except I wonder how good something is that just doesn't die but 3RKOs everything (for a while). Whatever.

And complaining about stuff in advance is more appealing than waiting 2 months to complain when the stuff finally shows up. And actually, I should really wait until he finishes up with Lehran. So 3 or 4 months. And my comment about left field was that the sentences I quoted did not flow with the rest of your post, so I couldn't find where it came from. Thank you for telling me where it came from....wait....

There is also little reason to double up on earth, now. 35 avo compared to 45 avo is pretty big in some instances, but being able to take an extra +2 mt or +2 def can possibly outweigh it.

Ya that was intended.

I'm sure it was. And I say it is a good thing.

I'm pretty sure that masteries are procced before hit/miss (I know Adept is since I can't use a 1-2 range sword with seeing Adept Miss Miss Miss, which would lead me to believe other skills are), meaning enemies should have a ~25-30% min hit rate unless you've got Nihil.

However, I never liked Earth anyway, so I wouldn't mind if Avoid from supports got reduced (With Micaiah's new authority stars, Zi has to be attacked like 30 times to face a 1% chance of death, and if he gets +1 Spd or an Ashera Icon I can't calculate it because Reikken's Chance of Death calculator starts returning NaN at around 172 attacks in a row... Although I don't recall if that was with a thicket or not. Either way, it's retarded, although I think we nerfed his offense to shit to make up for it). Def might need to be slightly reduced too, idk. I don't mind Atk and Hit since they don't scale exponentially with more of it.

Stupid masteries. I'm sure stuff like Luna and Deadeye won't miss. Don't know about the rest. I'm assuming in PoR they could, since they say deadeye doubles accuracy. Assuming masteries mostly are 100% hit when they activate certainly does a lot to mitigate the power of earth (and make me feel even stronger about giving Zihark a better str growth since it starts to fail in part 4), and if you like leaving them that way then earth is kind of a let down once part 4 starts. It's still good, but it's no longer super amazing.

With an atk support and a Silver Blade, she now has a 50% chance to *instantly kill her attacker* with Vantage. Unless Earth is cutting her chance to be hit in half compared to Dark (and even then she wouldn't be 100% ORKOing everything in sight so it still might be an inferior choice), there's really no reason not to.

What chapter are we in? Anyway, I'm not sure how good planning ahead for 3-E and beyond is if it neglects the earlier parts. And there is no way she is ever 2HKOing generals with 16mt weapons. Well, +5 from supports and a high enough cap might do it, but I think 35 str cap might actually be unreasonable, contrary to what I said many posts ago. So it's the other enemies. Still, with the whole masteries thing you might be right for part 4, though I still question whether she is worthy of one of the 3 vantages. I know you guys added some motivation to keep innate skills on the originals, but I'm not sure how big an increase in motiviation it is (aside from the paragon one.) Adept and Vantage and Cancel are probably still not a significant enough motivation. Actually, Nihil might be one (with enough motivation), too. 50% chance of avoiding activations at least knocks down the part 4 enemies' chance to activate a mastery. (That's what it would do, right? He said adjacent characters get 50% of the bonus. So like cancel would be (speed/2)% for adjacent units and speed% for the unit with the skill, but only if it is left on Leo/Haar.)

Um, actually do you think you could convince him to move Cancel to some other unit? If not for PoR I'd say Adept innate on Leo and Cancel innate on Zihark, though that might be too much for Leo considering his weapon selection. Still, Cancel on Leo has always seemed odd to me, and despite the adjacent bonus thing I'd still take it off him.

Anyway, when does Calill now show up? Well, I suppose Soren should undergo changes to be made viable, so that is two potential dark supporters. Dark may actually be worth it, to be honest. +3 mt and -11 avo compared to firexearth. Combined with masteries being 100% hit and no Vague Katti and no silver forge and it could very well be worth doing in part 4. Again, I wonder about part 3. Maybe better def base but worse def growth?

I'm like 99% sure that Mia's getting some sort of Str buff, it's just not to the point that she's steamrolling regular Ike. Also, keep in mind that with the Wo Dao she's still got like 70% crit vs. Warriors, so that's like a 50% chance to ORKO without Adept, which is better than what other people can say. She's still the best vs. Sages/SMs, and still can Wyrmslayer to stomp Dragons.

Yeah, I know 20 base and 60% growth and 27/36 cap is way too much. Oops. If she gets something, then it is probably fine. And I suppose 86 base crit with the thing might make its 7mt not suck for a little while. 86-16=70 as you said, and 49% isn't quite what she has when she 4HKOs in the normal game (actually it might be), but if she gets even +1 on her base then she is better than the original in 3-P and 3-1. Which allows her to be less good the rest of the time and still hit upper mid rather than drop to mid.

I'm pretty sure the ambience Vantage isn't Spd%. I think it's either FE4 or 50% chance.

Okay, so it is better than the original in fe10. But I'm not sure it's worth leaving on Mia if she can't make good use of it. Maybe it will be, though. To tell you the truth, if whatever you do makes Vantage a better idea for efficiency on Mia than off Mia, she'd probably end up needing a higher str base but a lower str growth, whatever it takes to result in less str than normal by 4-4, but good amounts in part 3.

That Boyd was hypothetical (and also needs brutha Oscar and can't do it at 1-2 range), he won't be 2HKOing everything in sight with Killer. >_>

I think he beats Mia, is all. My point is not that it is bad that Mia isn't the best with Vantage, but that she needs to be looked at with the assumption Vantage may very well get pilfered. And Oscar is for extra umph, not for it to be viable.

The problem is that with both she's broken all game. She still has a 50% chance to double crit with the Wo Dao, which is gonna wreck anything but a General (and outright kill enemies like Warriors and Sages).

Okay, let's face it, everyone should be killing sages. Hmm. She might be able to continue to KO warriors. If you support her with water/fire/dark, a B for 3-4 means +3 mt. She needs 28 mt. 18 str + 3. I think it may force her to always support fire/dark/water to make use of the wo dao, but it could work. Depending on what you do with everyone else, it may be too good, though. Then again, durability should balance offence. As long as she isn't 2HKOd by too much it would be fine. +5 mt by 3-7. Doesn't even need 29mt until 3-10. Wo dao might need to go down to 40 crit. She's not gonna be durable, but that may not matter. Even halbs only take 29 or 30 mt for a double crit to KO in 3-3. Probably want her str low enough to prevent that if everybody lower than upper mid isn't getting good enough buffs and if Ike/Gatrie/Titania/Haar are getting hurt too much. Otherwise its fine to allow her to 4HKO.

Of course, there are only two wo daos. Well, I guess 3, since one appears in 3-5 bargains. 90 uses takes her throughout the game. Um. Maybe it does need to drop to 40 crit. At least she will always use 2 uses, so only 45 attacks with it. But by 3-E silver blades show up and she has 32 + 20 = 52 crit against low 20s cev enemies. Pulling the same proc as with the wo dao.

I sincerely doubt that your Mia has 48 attack in 4-1, which she would need to get Halbs. With 20 from weapon+supports, she'd need to be Level 20/20/5-6. I dunno about you, but the only people that promote before Part 4 for me are Titania, Haar, and whatever chumps that I early Crown, plus the people with Paragon will promote. But gain 4-5 levels on top of that? Unlikely. She needs to be 20/20/7-8 to get the Halbs/Wars in 4-4 (and needs capped Str for some of the Warriors, so liek 20/20/12). She needs capped Str and a 20 Might weapon (so Vague Katti or a coin'd Silver) to get 4-E-2 Halbs and Warriors.

Oh, she fails on the 4-E-2 guys since she misses Ike (too far away). Did I forget them?

(original game)Anyway, 4-1 has Halbs for which you need 45 mt. They have 45hp/22def. With silver blade and a support that is +18. So she needs 27 str. Level 20/3, considering you should cap str by level 18 or 19 or so thanks to cheap bexp when she is close to a level in part 3. 20/3 has 27.9, so happens 69.75% of the time, which we generally accept as good enough. That's only 2 out of 5 of them anyway. The others just take 43 or 44. So that's just 20/1. Easy. Warriors have 50/20 at best, again needing 45 mt. That's actually 5 out of 7, though. So she'll need to hit a level, since I figure 20/2 for the start of the chapter. Or Tempest Blade. Not like Ike needs it, nor would any other sword users be doubling with 26 str anyway.

4-4 sees warriors that go up to 55/23. But that is 2 out of 10. Next best is 54hp/22def. So 49 mt. With Vague Katti (easy to get and no other sword user is likely to be ORKOing with it but the guy that ORKOs with Ragnell anyway) and her support that is 27 str. 20/3 or 20/4. Simple. Best halb is 48hp/25def. Also 49mt. Also 20/3 or 20/4. The upper end warriors need 51mt, of course. And Vague Katti means level 20/7 or 20/8 for that. 28.7 or 29.15. She needs levels for Tempest to do the trick, but that is still only 20/7 or 20/8 for most of them, which should happen around halfway through. 4 levels in 4-1, 4 levels in 4-4. (/original game)

Without changes, of course, she still pulls the 2HKOs at the same levels in 4-1. 4-4 she needs the support because she is stuck at 16mt on her weapon. Then 16 + 5 is still one less than 20 + 2. So she needs extra levels. Which is probably fine.

With the proposed buffs, she 2HKO 4-1 Generals, and gives her attack comparable to standard Nailah in 4-4 with a normal Silver Blade. This means that with a forge, she'll also be getting those Generals up with Oliver that not even base Nailah ORKOs. And with Vantage, that's a 50% chance to take no damage at all before Avoid is factored in.

eee. She should not be 2HKOing 4-1 generals. Ever. Nor the ones in 4-4. Or at least not many of them. Is that my changes? Are you assuming she supports +mt? I might be okay with her doing it only with that support, but I doubt the other units will all be able to pull off stuff like this, so maybe that would be bad.

Let me check original Mia. I'll go with my levels for halfway through. 20/4 and 20/8. 27 str and 29 str. 32 and 34 with your support types. 48 and 50 with silver blade. 48hp/29def generals in 4-4 are low end. Needs 53 mt. She can go up a little bit without breaking things. Even 53 is arguably okay since the next step up is 49hp/30def, which needs 55mt. So she could go as high as 33 str without causing problems, though 31 or less is likely better here. Tempest dropped to 16mt so there is no weapon she can hold >16mt right now.

Back in 4-1, low end is 44/26. Only 1 guy, though. He needs 48 mt. She pulls that with the new supports. The next up is 45/25.5 which could need 48 or 49. 2 out of 10 initials. 45/27 is the next worst. 50 mt. So she can't be allowed to go beyond 28 str for 20/4. 29 str at 20/4 means 2HKO all but 1 general. Needless to say, that's too much. I still say this relies on the assumption she supports fire/water/dark. Which could actually be viable if Soren starts doubling or Calill gets more availability. I suppose vantage + astra + crit + cancel possibility means she is way too likely to just kill these guys before anything happens if she 2HKOs. Actually, it's a good thing Astra comes with the cost of causing 5 uses of the precious tempests or silver blades.

She is getting buffs. However, smash likes to watch people squirm and I'm not the one with the file with all the changes.

I assumed you both had it. Anyway, I retract the idea of 18 and 50%, seeing as how a new cap in tier 2 of 25 (going with his +2 to most tier 2 caps) along with 13 levels to grow and bexp opportunity (unless hp and skill caps are raised) means 25 str by level 20 is pretty easy. At which point I worry about the balance. So, yeah, maybe base of 18 and growth of 40%. I haven't looked in depth at the def, but a 27 def cap in tier 3 prevents any small changes from getting out of hand. Also 22 def tier 2 cap can be left alone. Base hp +1, base def +2 might be more reasonable, though. hp+1, str+1, def+2, spd-2, strgrowth=40%, spdgrowth=60%.

Sorry, Narga, but I have to agree with Paperblade on this one. If we're balancing out units, one unit shouldn't be such a better choice for an Ike support than another that we should assume said Ike support on that unit. Remember, they're not trying to just change some things but keep the positions in the tier lists the same, they're trying to get all the units in the game to around the same part of the tier list (upper mid).

Most of my "look at the nerf" comments are coming from the idea that the guy who is making the changes sees Mia as upper mid already. Hence, as things are taken away, in order to remain in upper mid she needs something else added. The complaints stem from the assumption, however flawed, that smash would not make those additions. Again, I probably should have waited the 2 months it takes to see Mia's changes. Anyway, I don't think that the position on the tier list we gave to Mia is all that relevant.

In the tier list here, she's higher than many of the higher tiers. Thus, she needs to be nerfed more than them.

And if smash even saw her as > leanne on his list, the changes would be easier to see. To balance without making everyone have the same speed, adept did need to be changed. I'm still not sure on his crit multiplier change, but it just means her durability tanks further. If her offence remains a little imbalanced but her durability leaves something to be desired, it is probably fine.

Note: I'll wait until the GM info is put it for any more stuff. Also, I agree enemy stat changes first so that you can balance the PCs to the enemy, but too late now.

Edited November 10, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Victor Fang]

too many quotes!