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FE6 hard mode tier list, take 2


Vykan12
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Shin levels quickly if you go out of your way to feed him EXP. Shin does not level quickly when you don't apply favoritism because he is not a good combat unit on his own. Another unit could just as easily get those kills you're feeding him without needing them fed to them.

Your major error seems to be that you have this odd impression that Shin is somehow a terrible unit simply because he starts at 5/0. The fact is that his bases are very high for his level due to HM bonuses, making him a fairly effective combatant, even at base.

Base Shin (Short Bow)

29 HP 14 Atk 14 AS 8 Def

Shin doubles everything but the mercs on this chapter. While he doesn't quite ORKO things. He leaves Mages with 3 HP, Archers with 9-11 HP, Fighters/Pirates with 12. This means Shin needs only one other attacker who isn't like base level Wolt to finish off stuff. Let's compare him to someone like Lance, who this list says is the best unit in the game.

14/0 Lance (Steel Sword)

30 HP 18 Atk 13.5 AS 8 Def

Lance and Shin have almost identical durability. Lance's Spd here means he's actually pretty borderline on doubling Pirates and Fighters that aren't weighed down. He can switch to Iron for 1 more Spd, but Iron Sword! Lance has less Atk than Shin, IE cannot ORKO stuff.

Lance can counter Mercs and melee fighters on the enemy phase, but like many chapters he also faces Hand Axe!Fighters/Mages/Archers etc. which he doesn't counter any better than Shin does.

The point of this comparison is not Shin> Lance, it's that citing base Shin as a "negative", "not a good combat unit", "requiring feeding" is pretty preprosterous. Also, "anyone else could easily get those kills" isn't really true either, since most of your units aren't ORKOing. It's more efficient to let Shin get the kill than Zealot or something, because Shin gains a lot more Exp.

Nice, you babied Shin 13 levels in two chapters. Now where is the argument to move him up?

3 chapters (end of 11). You obviously don't understand the concept of giving kills to units to get higher returns in the future. Let's drop Lance and Alan because they need kills too right, just give all the kills to Marcus. Since so few units consistently ORKO in FE6, it more efficient in the long run to give the kills to low leveled units like Fir, Shin, or Gonzales than units already promoted.

He doesn't win durability in chapters with lots of Lance users. Also, Echidna can avoid counters with the Hand Axe and still attack at 1 range to boot, so I dunno how this is an advantage. Dealing damage to 1 enemy per turn is also not much of an advantage when compared to a unit able to take out multiple on the same turn. In order to use Shin's bow and then switch back to the sword you need to waste another unit's turn. More often than not, Shin is either having an equal player phase and no enemy phase or a worse player phase and much worse enemy phase.

Hand Axe!Echidna has low Hit and much lower Atk, so it's a pretty different situation.

You're also overrating the enemy phase. Sure Echidna having a better enemy phase is a point in her favor, but a team using Shin can easily redirect the attacks to Percival or Lance or any other unit who can take attacks and probably kill things. Echidna's enemy phase isn't even that great, given her questionable durability. She's all right against a swarm of axes, but enemies using swords will slice her up, and her Avo isn't reliable enough to dodge axes. She'll have crit rates listed on even from non-SMs before supports kick in as well.

Your other comparisons are pointless since you're sandbagging Shin pretty horribly levelwise.

I'd kind of like some other opinion on this, I don't really want to keep arguing if a move will never even be made.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Your major error seems to be that you have this odd impression that Shin is somehow a terrible unit simply because he starts at 5/0. The fact is that his bases are very high for his level due to HM bonuses, making him a fairly effective combatant, even at base.

Shin is terrible. He's an archer on a horse. Nomads are the second worst class in the entire game and the only reason they're not the worst class is because they can move two extra spaces over an archer.

The point of this comparison is not Shin> Lance, it's that citing base Shin as a "negative", "not a good combat unit", "requiring feeding" is pretty preprosterous. Also, "anyone else could easily get those kills" isn't really true either, since most of your units aren't ORKOing. It's more efficient to let Shin get the kill than Zealot or something, because Shin gains a lot more Exp.

That doesn't make it more efficient. That's like saying Lilina should move up because you can just baby her. This is an efficiency tier list where you don't set kills up, you move as fast as possible. Taking as little damage as possible is the most efficient way to move and Shin setting up a kill for a unit who can't one round is much more efficient than forcing that unit to take a counter so a Nomad can get some EXP. Who gets more EXP is irrelevant.

3 chapters (end of 11). You obviously don't understand the concept of giving kills to units to get higher returns in the future. Let's drop Lance and Alan because they need kills too right, just give all the kills to Marcus. Since so few units consistently ORKO in FE6, it more efficient in the long run to give the kills to low leveled units like Fir, Shin, or Gonzales than units already promoted.

Explain why Fir and Shin aren't in high tier then; it's because unless you show favoritism they are unable to compare well to the rest of your team and needing to be babied equates to negative utility. Gonzales is there because he has a beastly enemy phase and never needs to be babied. The enemy phase is by far the most important phase and where you will get a majority of your kills if you're playing efficiently. Shin is no better than units who start good when he joins, so I don't see why I should bother. Lance and Alan are good units when they join compared to the rest of the team. Also, Iron Sword Lance has 1 more atk than Shin in your comparison so I've no idea what you're talking about when you say he's weaker. He should also have C Alan/Roy for a 2 point atk boost.

Your other comparisons are pointless since you're sandbagging Shin pretty horribly levelwise.

You mean I'm refusing to assume a unit is babied on a tier list that promotes efficiency and speed.

You're also overrating the enemy phase. Sure Echidna having a better enemy phase is a point in her favor, but a team using Shin can easily redirect the attacks to Percival or Lance or any other unit who can take attacks and probably kill things.

Okay, so Shin has the ability to slow your units down in order to protect him. God tier.

Echidna's enemy phase isn't even that great, given her questionable durability. She's all right against a swarm of axes, but enemies using swords will slice her up, and her Avo isn't reliable enough to dodge axes. She'll have crit rates listed on even from non-SMs before supports kick in as well.

If there are swarms of sword users she can just break even or the Swordreaver you find in the chapter before she joins. Of course, I can't think of a single chapter in the game with swarms of sword users. By far the least used weapon in the game. If her avo is good enough to dodge Lances, how is it not good enough to dodge Axes?..

Edited by Tangerine
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I actually find bow users to be comparatively more useful in this game, partially because of the abundance of flying enemies and really hard hitting enemies lategame (like Nosferatu druids). And horse utility is always a good thing. Having the highest rescue stat in the game means that Shin can transport anyone anywhere he can go, helping efficiency even if he doesn't enter combat.

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I'm not reading all this shit about Shin but you get two killer bows around the time he joins and the rest of your bowmen are kinda mediocre. After 25 attacks Shin can use Killer, which should make him ORKO plenty of stuff even if he hasn't procced str yet.

Further, him not ORKOing is only a problem when everybody else is ORKOing. If Dick misses a pirate by like 1-2 HP I don't see any reason Shin can't finish. In fact a lot of people aren't ORKOing shit at the isles, so Shin's fine, really.

He also only loses 2 AS with Steel bow, meaning he'll still have sufficient AS to double things if he switches to that.

Edited by Fred Fuchs
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I actually find bow users to be comparatively more useful in this game, partially because of the abundance of flying enemies and really hard hitting enemies lategame (like Nosferatu druids). And horse utility is always a good thing. Having the highest rescue stat in the game means that Shin can transport anyone anywhere he can go, helping efficiency even if he doesn't enter combat.

I definitely agree with this.

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I actually find bow users to be comparatively more useful in this game, partially because of the abundance of flying enemies and really hard hitting enemies lategame (like Nosferatu druids). And horse utility is always a good thing. Having the highest rescue stat in the game means that Shin can transport anyone anywhere he can go, helping efficiency even if he doesn't enter combat.

For the most part, what is it really doing for them in combat? They're killing at most one wyvern or peg per turn, where other units can kill them reliably with a counter.

As for his horse utility, it's not as good as Thany's so I can't see him getting up there with Echidna and Gonzales when he can't get past her.

I'm not reading all this shit about Shin but you get two killer bows around the time he joins and the rest of your bowmen are kinda mediocre. After 25 attacks Shin can use Killer, which should make him ORKO plenty of stuff even if he hasn't procced str yet.

His offense isn't the problem, it's killing at most one unit per turn. He's lucky to get a level every chapter when moving quickly. He doesn't even get a kill if he doesn't crit whatever he attacks once. 25 attacks is a good amount of chapters for a unit who can't counter as well.

Edited by Tangerine
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We've been over Shin v Thany, I assure you he's not arguing Shin>Thany (still think it's horseshit but w/e)

Edited by Fred Fuchs
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We've been over Shin v Thany, I assure you he's not arguing Shin>Thany (still think it's horseshit but w/e)

Well Shin is directly under Thany so if she's trying to argue Shin closer to Echidna he has to go past Thany. That's what this debate is for; moving Shin into high tier.

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As for his horse utility, it's not as good as Thany's so I can't see him getting up there with Echidna and Gonzales when he can't get past her.

Obviously flying>horse, but Shin is also a better combat unit, there are non fliers above Thany. I stopped arguing against Thany because combat was pretty much conceded so I'd just be arguing against Thany's flying utility, which wouldn't go much of anywhere (just like I'd be arguing against theiving/dancer utility with any of the units before Echidna in Upper Mid).

His offense isn't the problem, it's killing at most one unit per turn. He's lucky to get a level every chapter when moving quickly.

Bullshit alert.

Assume level 5 Shin and a level 9 enemy.

Exp formula for kill is: Exp from doing damage (~12) + experience from defeating base (~12) + 20

That's 44 Exp, meaning that 2 kills and a hit gets Shin s level up. If we spend around 9 turns on the Wetsern Isles after we get Shin and he gets 6 kills and 3 hits, he's already gained ~3 levels.

I notice you put almost no effort into actually refuting Shin's performance at base, and instead going lol bows are terrible lol, which does not hold for FE6, particularly Nomads since they get another weapon type anyway.

I feel no need to back down on this unless you manage to scrap together an actual argument of why Shin is so "terrible" "needing babied etc." rather than simply throwing out unsupported statements.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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For the most part, what is it really doing for them in combat? They're killing at most one wyvern or peg per turn, where other units can kill them reliably with a counter.

Units can kill WKs reliably? Maybe magic units can (but they also can't take hits), but if we take, say 37 atk Silver Lance Percival (so about --/12) against the lowest end 20/0 WK on the map (45 HP/15 def), he still misses the ORKO by 1 HP. For reference, the average WK has about 47 HP/16 def. WLs are even harder to kill (57 HP/19 def).

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Obviously flying>horse, but Shin is also a better combat unit, there are non fliers above Thany. I stopped arguing against Thany because combat was pretty much conceded so I'd just be arguing against Thany's flying utility, which wouldn't go much of anywhere (just like I'd be arguing against theiving/dancer utility with any of the units before Echidna in Upper Mid).

Okay so you're basically saying that Shin is not moving out of upper mid. What're we doing here again?

Bullshit alert.

Assume level 5 Shin and a level 9 enemy.

Exp formula for kill is: Exp from doing damage (~12) + experience from defeating base (~12) + 20

That's 44 Exp, meaning that 2 kills and a hit gets Shin s level up. If we spend around 9 turns on the Wetsern Isles after we get Shin and he gets 6 kills and 3 hits, he's already gained ~3 levels.

I notice you put almost no effort into actually refuting Shin's performance at base, and instead going lol bows are terrible lol, which does not hold for FE6, particularly Nomads since they get another weapon type anyway.

I feel no need to back down on this unless you manage to scrap together an actual argument of why Shin is so "terrible" "needing babied etc." rather than simply throwing out unsupported statements.

Yeah, too bad you're assuming that we're waiting around and feeding them to Shin. Efficiency; lowest turn count possible. You're running to the boss as fast as you can, not feeding Shin reinforcement kills for 9 turns. By the time you have Shin recruited, you're a couple moves away from beating the chapter. Bows are terrible and not countering is terrible. Killing one unit at most per turn is terrible.

Units can kill WKs reliably? Maybe magic units can (but they also can't take hits), but if we take, say 37 atk Silver Lance Percival (so about --/12) against the lowest end 20/0 WK on the map (45 HP/15 def), he still misses the ORKO by 1 HP. For reference, the average WK has about 47 HP/16 def. WLs are even harder to kill (57 HP/19 def).

Doubling with a Killer weapon is what you should be doing. A crit and a hit is all the best units need and they can kill multiple per turn thanks to counters. For example,

?/12 Percival with a Killer Lance and C Klein has 46.5 crit. He's very likely to take out multiple wyverns, whereas a Bow user has an assured chance to take out one and no chance to take out multiple.

Edited by Tangerine
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?/12 Percival with a Killer Lance and C Klein has 46.5 crit. He's very likely to take out multiple wyverns, whereas a Bow user has an assured chance to take out one and no chance to take out multiple.

I wouldn't even give Percival C Klein. Klein has earlier supports like Clarine and Tate that he would take before Percival, and they give better bonuses. That leaves him with 44 crit, reduced to 36 by enemy luck. His chance of critting at least once in a round of combat is 59%, which is decent, but still not reliable by any means. Moreover, using Killer Lance reduces his atk to 33, which fails to ORKO a 57 HP/19 def WL (although this point is moot because Percival has access to Killer Axes). The bow user would optimize player phase flexibility, as he is almost guaranteed to ORKO any flying enemy (barring any misses), and the rest of the team can move on and work on positioning for enemy phase instead of having to pick off survivors by themselves.

Edited by dondon151
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I wouldn't even give Percival C Klein. Klein has earlier supports like Clarine and Tate that he would take before Percival, and they give better bonuses. That leaves him with 44 crit, reduced to 36 by enemy luck. His chance of critting at least once in a round of combat is 59%, which is decent, but still not reliable by any means. Moreover, using Killer Lance reduces his atk to 33, which fails to ORKO a 57 HP/19 def WL (although this point is moot because Percival has access to Killer Axes). The bow user would optimize player phase flexibility, as he is almost guaranteed to ORKO any flying enemy (barring any misses), and the rest of the team can move on and work on positioning for enemy phase instead of having to pick off survivors by themselves.

How is Klein going to get full supports before he gets C Percival? I take the fastest supports I can get; if that means supporting more than 2 people for quicker bonuses then I'll take it. His Elphin support is pretty good too, but I don't know what you guys think about the A route vs B route thing so I didn't bother mentioning it.

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How is Klein going to get full supports before he gets C Percival? I take the fastest supports I can get; if that means supporting more than 2 people for quicker bonuses then I'll take it. His Elphin support is pretty good too, but I don't know what you guys think about the A route vs B route thing so I didn't bother mentioning it.

Well, let's see. Tate and Clarine become available to Klein 6 chapters before Percival does. Clarine is 40 +3 and Tate is 30 +2. If Klein wants to fill up with A Clarine B Tate, all he needs is 54 turns adjacent to Clarine and 45 turns adjacent to Tate before he gets 20 turns adjacent to Percival. It's doable, considering that Percival and Klein generally shouldn't be near each other much anyway.

But whatever, 2 crit isn't going to make much of a difference.

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There's a good chance Clarine is pretty full before Percival even shows up. There's Rutger, Dieck, and Lance who show up way before, and Klein himself, which is fast.

I'm not a fan of Percival/Klein myself, mainly because Klein is a backline unit and Percival just charges ahead with full Mov and slaughters everything anyway. Elphin has similar issues, plus he has even less Mov than Klein.

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I put Gonzales > Clarine since that seemed to be agreed upon. Also, somebody please take this topic over for me. My interest in tiering is just about dead these days.

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I put Gonzales > Clarine since that seemed to be agreed upon. Also, somebody please take this topic over for me. My interest in tiering is just about dead these days.

??? All I see was a chat between you and Mekkah that said Clarine>Gonzales and Grandjackal agreeing...

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There's a good chance Clarine is pretty full before Percival even shows up. There's Rutger, Dieck, and Lance who show up way before, and Klein himself, which is fast.

Why would Lance be any part of it when he's got Allen and Roy? It's not like Roy cares if he's missing a single C support level he can plug up with just about any supporter he wishes when he B Bs the two.

Rutger? Yeah, their support has ok speed of 10+2. Deick? I am pretty damn sure that at best, they'd have a C by the time Klein joins outside of rescue riding in chapter 8. That, and Deick's not exactly dependent on Clarine for his own supports either. Lot, Thany, Ward if we're bored, Rutger is more likely since despite being nearly as slow he's actually around him more than Clarine, you get the picture.

Along with that, the difference between Ice and Thunder is that Clarine wouldn't get as much crit. Doubt she's crying over spilled milk about 5 crit.

I'm not a fan of Percival/Klein myself, mainly because Klein is a backline unit and Percival just charges ahead with full Mov and slaughters everything anyway. Elphin has similar issues, plus he has even less Mov than Klein.

Pretty much my thoughts.

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Lolipop is me, not Vykan.

Goddamn. I just got mistaken for Vykan. I is superior intellectual.

Although admittedly, I don't think Vykan would be caught dead saying anything like "big shoopdawoop" so I'm completely baffled how you thought Lolipop was Vykan, to begin with.

Edited by Fred Fuchs
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