Mist VS Rhys

[Florete]

Then why even get supports at all?

To bring it down that low. My wording was a bit strange, but the point is that he doesn't need an A with Oscar to be wildly durable. The difference in avoid between A Oscar/B Soren and A Soren/B Oscar is only 3.

Oscar/Kieran gets exactly half the hit bonus Rhys/Kieran does, 7 hit isn't very useful.

Then neither is Rhys Hit bonus.

It's not nice to assume the person you're discussing with is stupid, that makes you look like a humongous douchebag.

Welcome to FE debating.

Lol you're taking this way too seriously. When I first stated that Rhys' supports help people, I mentioned that they help when they main axes. This was from the very start, and only now are you bringing up steel lances.

I know that's what you said. That doesn't mean you can ignore the fact that Kieran can use Lances when the situation calls for that. If Rhys and Kieran could reach A before Kieran can reasonably be assumed to be promoted, you'd have a point, but you can't go just off what he mains when he can use other weapons just because it helps your argument. Astrid mains Bows, does that means she'll only those even she promotes? Hell no. Raven in FE7 mains Swords, does that mean he'll never pick up an Axe when he promotes? You'd be an idiot if you let that happen.

If he apparently has no problem hitting things, like Kieran, I'm not sure how A Kieran is better for him. It's better for Kieran, maybe, but not Oscar. The extra hit does nothing for him.

I never said anything about Oscar's accuracy, so I don't know where you're getting that from. It's somewhat similar to Kieran's though, so go off that. Anyway, Kieran is better because mobility and he at least wants some bonuses, namely what he gets from his own affinity.

You're saying all the chapters are blank, empty fields?

Are you going to point out maps where Kieran might be left behind or am I going to have to be the one to provide all the evidence?

Rhys is not the one that likes the bonuses, it's Kieran that does. Sure, he'd enjoy the +1 attack (who wouldn't), but the support is mostly so Kieran can hit things better.

And I already showed how Kieran doesn't give a shit about Rhys' bonuses. Did you miss that one?

[IkefanCail]

I prefer mist simply because of her great mobility after she classes up, but I'm a noob.

[Killer Poleax]

I usually use both but mostly for healing, not really fighting. I like Rhys more cause Mist takes too long to level even though she ends up better

[Inui]

Horse > Rhys.

[Colonel M]

The lack of Soren option is disturbing. I guess I'd still use Mist more than Rhys any day of the week.

Oh, and Kieran loves Oscar support. There is no reason to turn down +Avoid. Ever.

Edited February 5, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

I agree with Red Fox of Fire about the support stuff.

Also, Rhys does not exist. Horrible character that becomes worthless once you have other healers.

[nocturnal YL]

I use both, but prefer Mist.

Let's not talk about Rhys' horrible defense now. The fact that Mist will enter the Black Knight fight alone makes her a more preferrable unit. (Although honestly, I'd like to have Ike recover automatically. Healers are still weak against physical units even when trained.)

[Interceptor]

Also, Rhys does not exist. Horrible character that becomes worthless once you have other healers.

This is utter nonsense. Rhys is one of only two characters that can heal for free, until you get to Elincihax. Your "other" healers, in the form of Soren/Ilyana/Tormod, can only heal if you get them to promotion, which means you have to use them as combatants. Plus, Rhys's affinity can be clutch if you're using his supports, particularly for Mia, because Fire is not half bad.

Given how you basically always have more deployment slots that you have asskickers in an efficient team, deploying Rhys doesn't really bump anyone else out. He's a bad combatant, but he's an altogether decent healer with his MAG stat, especially with Physic.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Interceptor

[Inui]

This is utter nonsense. Rhys is one of only two characters that can heal for free, until you get to Elincihax.

What do you mean by "heal for free"? Anyone that can use staves can just heal someone. What is Rhys doing that is special once you have other options beyond being the worst combat unit on the map and a piece of glass?

Your "other" healers, in the form of Soren/Ilyana/Tormod, can only heal if you get them to promotion, which means you have to use them as combatants. Plus, Rhys's affinity can be clutch if you're using his supports, particularly for Mia, because Fire is not half bad.

Which is why I said after they promote you no longer need Rhys ever.

You have to use them as combatants before promotion. After that, they are dual-purpose units that can both attack and heal. Rhys is never good at attacking and is much more frail. I think they beat a supported Rhys in durability if they don't even have supports, lol. That is pretty bad.

Given how you basically always have more deployment slots that you have asskickers in an efficient team, deploying Rhys doesn't really bump anyone else out. He's a bad combatant, but he's an altogether decent healer with his MAG stat, especially with Physic.

Or I could eventually drop Rhys because he's garbage and field some other staff user since the others aren't glass and can fight things. Fighting + healing > healing. Rhys can never fight or frontline, but a supported Soren/Ilyana/Tormod easily can and they all have amazing offense.

[Bryan]

What do you mean by "heal for free"? Anyone that can use staves can just heal someone. What is Rhys doing that is special once you have other options beyond being the worst combat unit on the map and a piece of glass?

I think he means without a MS or becoming level 21.

[Colonel M]

What do you mean by "heal for free"? Anyone that can use staves can just heal someone. What is Rhys doing that is special once you have other options beyond being the worst combat unit on the map and a piece of glass?

It's called "not require promotion / seal" in order to heal.

[Inui]

Okay so he's all right and useful before you have other healers. That's been agreed upon.

After that, though...lol @ you if you're still using him.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Okay so he's all right and useful before you have other healers. That's been agreed upon.

After that, though...lol @ you if you're still using him.

The game gives you so many strong units and resources that choosing an inferior healer will hardly make a difference. Better options after the beginning? Yes. Entirely useless? No.

[Inui]

And that disproves me saying "almost everyone > Rhys" how? If almost everyone else is gold and platinum and Rhys is silver with a few bronzes around, Rhys is still near the bottom of a tier list even though silver is valuable and pretty because the other two are more valuable. Except it's actually even worse for him because ~25 units are better than him by a very noticeable amount, meaning fielding him at all after he's not needed makes your team automatically worse than fielding some other unit.

[-Cynthia-]

The value of Rhys's earlygame healing is pretty high, since anyone other than Titania/Gatrie/Shinon has questionable durability and only Titania can ORKO things. Enemy density can be relatively high as well.

That being said, I usually dump Rhys for Soren or Ilyana once the Master Seals become available. They beat him in combat pretty handily and the difference in healing quality is pretty negligible (plus in FE9 healers get the same EXP regardless of promo status). They're also more durable once supports are factored in and by the time Physics become available they should have the staff rank regardless.

Edited February 9, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Kinata]

I'm not a debater, but I noticed that no one took the inability to use the Ashera Staff and Fortify staves into account with sages. Does that not matter?

[Bryan]

I'm not a debater, but I noticed that no one took the inability to use the Ashera Staff and Fortify staves into account with sages. Does that not matter?

Mist can use them. But no, it does not matter that much. I rarely use Fortifies, unless it is blessed. :/

[Kinata]

You don't get a fortify until chapter 27 anyway. And I find it useful in the Endgame. Meanwhile, Mist is on the frontline with her runesword, attacking instead of healing.

[Interceptor]

What do you mean by "heal for free"?

Obviously I mean what I already said, which is that he doesn't need to be trained in order to be able to heal. Mist and lollate Elincia are the only other units who can do this. Notice that your alternate healers are all Sages that need to be raised as combatants.

What is Rhys doing that is special once you have other options beyond being the worst combat unit on the map and a piece of glass?

How about his supports, and the fact that he heals with no detrimental impact on your army's kill CEXP?

Which is why I said after they promote you no longer need Rhys ever.

All this means is that you don't know what you are doing. Never is your deployment so constrained that he forces a unduly hard choice on you, and extra healing frequently presents you with options to push your army harder.

You have to use them as combatants before promotion. After that, they are dual-purpose units that can both attack and heal. Rhys is never good at attacking and is much more frail. I think they beat a supported Rhys in durability if they don't even have supports, lol. That is pretty bad.

All that means is that Ilyana/Soren/Tormod are better than Rhys post-promotion. It does not mean that Rhys is worthless. That's... not even a complex point.

Or I could eventually drop Rhys because he's garbage and field some other staff user since the others aren't glass and can fight things. Fighting + healing > healing. Rhys can never fight or frontline, but a supported Soren/Ilyana/Tormod easily can and they all have amazing offense.

An amazing strategy, Two Years Tennis Experience, marred only by the fact that deploying Rhys is not mutually exclusive with Soren/Ilyana/Tormod. Meaning: you can deploy them both at once. The advantage here is that you get the support benefits of both units, and indirectly improve your offense by giving S/I/T more chances to attack by having Rhys take up more of their healing duties. For the umpteenth time, you get plenty of deployment slots, and you don't actually need that many attackers.

Edited February 9, 2010 by Interceptor

[Shadow Mir]

How about his supports

Only Mia gets any real benefit. Titania and Kieran don't care for him, and Rolf and Ulki are terrible.

[Interceptor]

Only Mia gets any real benefit. Titania and Kieran don't care for him, and Rolf and Ulki are terrible.

Mia is certainly the best of the bunch in terms of likelihood and benefit, but I would not say that no situations exist where Titania would take his support, and your comment about Rolf/Ulki is basically a non-sequitur.

[Inui]

Obviously I mean what I already said, which is that he doesn't need to be trained in order to be able to heal. Mist and lollate Elincia are the only other units who can do this. Notice that your alternate healers are all Sages that need to be raised as combatants.

Okay, cool. Rhys is useful before you have other way better units to dump his garbage ass for.

How about his supports, and the fact that he heals with no detrimental impact on your army's kill CEXP?

You mean...the same exact thing other healers can do except they are better since they can fight at the same time and have supports as well?

All this means is that you don't know what you are doing. Never is your deployment so constrained that he forces a unduly hard choice on you, and extra healing frequently presents you with options to push your army harder.

If I am to field 10 units and I need a healer, I can use Mist and promoted versions of three good characters instead of a unit that doesn't have the option to fight. Fighting + healing >>> healing. Soren can move up to the front lines and heal because his supports make him nearly untouchable and he can kill things. The same can be said of Tormod and Ilyana. Rhys must be shielded and he can't fight well ever. This limits his mobility and the mobility of your team. The other staff users do not do this.

All that means is that Ilyana/Soren/Tormod are better than Rhys post-promotion. It does not mean that Rhys is worthless. That's... not even a complex point.

Rhys is worthless once you have other, much better options. After that, fielding him yields less benefits than fielding someone else, so that makes him quite bad.

[Shadow Mir]

Mia is certainly the best of the bunch in terms of likelihood and benefit, but I would not say that no situations exist where Titania would take his support, and your comment about Rolf/Ulki is basically a non-sequitur.

While there are situations that Titania would want a Rhys support, it is her worst support, considering there's a move gap, and even then, the bonuses are terrible.

[Narga_Rocks]

Okay, cool. Rhys is useful before you have other way better units to dump his garbage ass for.

still doesn't get it.

You mean...the same exact thing other healers can do except they are better since they can fight at the same time and have supports as well?

Or, you know, deploy both and then Rhys heals while your other units that you claim are such amazing fighters get to actually, you know, fight?

If I am to field 10 units and I need a healer, I can use Mist and promoted versions of three good characters instead of a unit that doesn't have the option to fight. Fighting + healing >>> healing. Soren can move up to the front lines and heal because his supports make him nearly untouchable and he can kill things. The same can be said of Tormod and Ilyana. Rhys must be shielded and he can't fight well ever. This limits his mobility and the mobility of your team. The other staff users do not do this.

Physics. Your point is null.

As for the rest, healing + (healing + fighting) > (healing + fighting). Oh look, deploying Rhys is better than simply not. You are not so strapped for deployment slots that it is advantageous to deploy your 10th string fighter rather than an extra healer.

Rhys is worthless once you have other, much better options. After that, fielding him yields less benefits than fielding someone else, so that makes him quite bad.

Fielding him does not yield less benefit. Notice that your 10th string fighter is taking cexp from your top 9 fighters. Rhys is taking cexp from nobody. He is in fact one of the best healers since you have no motivation to have him attack stuff (Mist wants to reach B Swords pronto) so he can focus on healing. All the rest you want to build to A swords (Mist for Runesword) or S thunder or something else. Rhys just sits back and physics the maps away.

[Kinata]

In short, fighting+healing is not that much of an advantage because a unit can only do one of those per movement. Keep Rhys focused on healing and everyone else on combat since he is one of the few pure healers.