Jump to content
Nephinel

Why is Micaiah is often called a Mary Sue?

Recommended Posts

I thought the talk to animals thing (just the bird, she can generally guess the feelings of Volug while having no idea of what he's actually saying) was more of a pet thing, Yune was a fairly well trained bird before it became the godesses' vessel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the talk to animals thing (just the bird, she can generally guess the feelings of Volug while having no idea of what he's actually saying) was more of a pet thing, Yune was a fairly well trained bird before it became the godesses' vessel.

Right, so Yune, by coincidence, possessed a bird named Yune who was the pet of someone who had the potential to become a vessel for a dark god.

Let me get my head around that for a sec.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When did Ike even need to make a mistake? Soren was the tactician who thought of the courses of action, and Ike was just the guy who ordered the army to do what Soren said. He was a moral character, but aren't most characters moral? If Ike was a Sue, there would have been a lot of evidence that he was great at everything, and all we know is that he is a leader with amazing fighting skills with little plot development.

Micaiah had a lot of Sue qualities. She has her special talent of sacrifice, never-ending gentleness, loyalty, and compassion, she seems to be a great tactician as seen several times in the game, she's beautiful and has uniquely colored hair, everyone admires her, saves Daein and then all of Tellius, becomes the queen of Daein and sister of the apostle, and is pretty much flawless. Her "morally questionable" decisions were made when no decision was ideal. In part 3, she attacks the laguz in loyalty to her country, and when she decides enough is enough, she realizes that her country will be destroyed if she does not continue fighting, so she has to continue to fight Ike's army. In part 1, she doesn't seem to make any mistakes, fixing Izuka's strategy a couple of times, and not making any selfish decisions. So yeah, she's a Sue.

But correct me if I'm wrong, I've only played this game once, and that was months ago.

Ike is loved by everyone in FE9. Lots of people comment on how he seems to draw people to him, and he's always convincing people to help him and join his side. He single-handedly heals the rift between Begnion and the Herons, who all like him, he never does any wrong or incorrect, except when he calls Lethe/Mordecai a subhuman early in the game and shouts at Sanaki midway through the game, but he only does this because he's not aware he's incorrect, and nothing bad comes of it and he ends up becoming friends with Lethe/Mordecai/Sanaki.

Whereas not everyone loves Micaiah, because Jill and Zihark can desert her. She has a unique magic skill, but Ike is also frequently described as having a unique fighting style as well, and he has a unique sword as well. So they're even there. She's gentle and compassionate, but so are lots of people in FE. In addition, she's never specifically described as beautiful either. She's not really a great tactician either, since she walks into the trap in 1-8. And she becomes the queen of Daein, but it's established that the line of Daein is extinct except for Soren, who probably doesn't want to be King. She does make morally questionable decisions, and even though she was forced to make a difficult moral decision, characters like Ike NEVER have to make a difficult moral decision ever, because the writers don't want to have to make him seem less than perfect in any way, while they give Micaiah the tough moral dilemmas. Which shows that the writers favour Ike. Which is the definition of a Mary-Sue - a character that is favoured by the writer(s).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ike does have Sue tendencies. Big ones. But in PoR is pretty obvious that hes not really a full on Sue. He yells at the Apostle and gets called on it. He feels hes not cut out to run the GMs. There are other things too. In RD, if you had not played the first game, yeah youll go "shit! what a Sue!" So i can see it.

Micaiah is a Sue. Having one "What The Hell Hero" moment doesnt disqualify you as a Sue. (you need a few of those.) She does get a What The Hell, Hero from Sothe and Ike but only in one chapter. The fact is, SHES the "secret" apostle, SHES the vessel Yune uses, SHES got powers no one else does, Shes even got that defining physical trait people point out all the time. Silver hair. (she also wears purple, the color of Sue.) After 3-E, everyones all "Micaiah yer so wonderful!! <3" even though they were on opposing sides. I mean, what? She also goes on to RULE DAEIN in the epilogue! I mean, come on. Yeah shes a Sue.

The biggest Mary Sue example, Nephinel is in fact Bella Swan from Twilight. Shes the best example of a Sue ive ever seen. She makes Micaiah look like a really well rounded character. :|

Ah... I forgot about when he yelled at the apostle. Didn't some guy who looked like the Wyvern boss from RD 3-2 threaten to kill Ike?

And fightenengly enough, Bella Swan isn't the biggest Sue. That would be "Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way", from the fanfiction, "My Immortal". She makes Bella look like a semi-decent character.

Edited by Wolf of Mibu

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the talk to animals thing (just the bird, she can generally guess the feelings of Volug while having no idea of what he's actually saying) was more of a pet thing, Yune was a fairly well trained bird before it became the godesses' vessel.

Right, so Yune, by coincidence, possessed a bird named Yune who was the pet of someone who had the potential to become a vessel for a dark god.

Let me get my head around that for a sec.

The name thing can happen. The old name of what was considered the Dark God may not have survived with the conitation as Satan would in this world, yet the name itself becomes one of those old-ish names that someone may call a pet.

And she's not a dark God just the embodiment of chaos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think she's a bigger Sue than Ike, she can't kill the final boss because he has to do it even though she is tied much more to the plot than he is. He had that same exclusivity with Ashnard, and he had his own game already.

All the lordesses have to share their importance with a lord, not one has had a game all to herself. Ike has PoR to himself and in Radiant Dawn he is treated as a more important lord. Flawless everything, and Micaiah is treated like a pawn by Pelleas.

Micaiah: Take all the power that I have.

This is what enables him to kill Ashera. Sounds like a Sue to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When did Ike even need to make a mistake? Soren was the tactician who thought of the courses of action, and Ike was just the guy who ordered the army to do what Soren said. He was a moral character, but aren't most characters moral? If Ike was a Sue, there would have been a lot of evidence that he was great at everything, and all we know is that he is a leader with amazing fighting skills with little plot development.

Micaiah had a lot of Sue qualities. She has her special talent of sacrifice, never-ending gentleness, loyalty, and compassion, she seems to be a great tactician as seen several times in the game, she's beautiful and has uniquely colored hair, everyone admires her, saves Daein and then all of Tellius, becomes the queen of Daein and sister of the apostle, and is pretty much flawless. Her "morally questionable" decisions were made when no decision was ideal. In part 3, she attacks the laguz in loyalty to her country, and when she decides enough is enough, she realizes that her country will be destroyed if she does not continue fighting, so she has to continue to fight Ike's army. In part 1, she doesn't seem to make any mistakes, fixing Izuka's strategy a couple of times, and not making any selfish decisions. So yeah, she's a Sue.

But correct me if I'm wrong, I've only played this game once, and that was months ago.

Ike is loved by everyone in FE9. Lots of people comment on how he seems to draw people to him, and he's always convincing people to help him and join his side. He single-handedly heals the rift between Begnion and the Herons, who all like him, he never does any wrong or incorrect, except when he calls Lethe/Mordecai a subhuman early in the game and shouts at Sanaki midway through the game, but he only does this because he's not aware he's incorrect, and nothing bad comes of it and he ends up becoming friends with Lethe/Mordecai/Sanaki.

Whereas not everyone loves Micaiah, because Jill and Zihark can desert her. She has a unique magic skill, but Ike is also frequently described as having a unique fighting style as well, and he has a unique sword as well. So they're even there. She's gentle and compassionate, but so are lots of people in FE. In addition, she's never specifically described as beautiful either. She's not really a great tactician either, since she walks into the trap in 1-8. And she becomes the queen of Daein, but it's established that the line of Daein is extinct except for Soren, who probably doesn't want to be King. She does make morally questionable decisions, and even though she was forced to make a difficult moral decision, characters like Ike NEVER have to make a difficult moral decision ever, because the writers don't want to have to make him seem less than perfect in any way, while they give Micaiah the tough moral dilemmas. Which shows that the writers favour Ike. Which is the definition of a Mary-Sue - a character that is favoured by the writer(s).

Ike's' unique fighting style exists because of his father, the Black Knight also has it. The unique sword is a shared quality by many. Ike never has to make the decisions because Soren usually does. Micaiah on the other hand has the special sacrafice, ties to the goddess, ties to the apostle AND Lehran. Ike gets attacked by spirits, Lehran, and Ashera. Looks like Micaiah isn't attacked but can attack for the final two chapters. Looks like she is favoured.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought the talk to animals thing (just the bird, she can generally guess the feelings of Volug while having no idea of what he's actually saying) was more of a pet thing, Yune was a fairly well trained bird before it became the godesses' vessel.

A bird can't become a vessel, especially when Micaiah is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think she's a bigger Sue than Ike, she can't kill the final boss because he has to do it even though she is tied much more to the plot than he is. He had that same exclusivity with Ashnard, and he had his own game already.

All the lordesses have to share their importance with a lord, not one has had a game all to herself. Ike has PoR to himself and in Radiant Dawn he is treated as a more important lord. Flawless everything, and Micaiah is treated like a pawn by Pelleas.

Micaiah: Take all the power that I have.

This is what enables him to kill Ashera. Sounds like a Sue to me.

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Ike's' unique fighting style exists because of his father, the Black Knight also has it. The unique sword is a shared quality by many. Ike never has to make the decisions because Soren usually does. Micaiah on the other hand has the special sacrafice, ties to the goddess, ties to the apostle AND Lehran. Ike gets attacked by spirits, Lehran, and Ashera. Looks like Micaiah isn't attacked but can attack for the final two chapters. Looks like she is favoured.

So are the herons, what's your point? Besides, Lehran won't attack Sanaki, and with her res and 1-2 range spirits don't bother anyway. Can't Sanaki attack Lehran? (As if there is a point). Also, it's not like spirits can even damage Micaiah, anyway.

Also, yet again you are double counting the whole vessel of Yune thing. It's Yune that they won't attack. Well, Lehran may not attack Micaiah even if not for the Yune thing, but it's not like he doesn't also not attack Sanaki.

You might as well just repeat the Mantra "Micaiah is Yune's vessel" over and over, since that's what you are doing. It's either enough to make her a Sue or it isn't. You can't just repeat it over and over and think that your case gets any stronger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think she's a bigger Sue than Ike, she can't kill the final boss because he has to do it even though she is tied much more to the plot than he is. He had that same exclusivity with Ashnard, and he had his own game already.

All the lordesses have to share their importance with a lord, not one has had a game all to herself. Ike has PoR to himself and in Radiant Dawn he is treated as a more important lord. Flawless everything, and Micaiah is treated like a pawn by Pelleas.

Micaiah: Take all the power that I have.

This is what enables him to kill Ashera. Sounds like a Sue to me.

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Except the point is, Ike being able to kill Ashera doesn't make him a Sue as previously stated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And fightenengly enough, Bella Swan isn't the biggest Sue. That would be "Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way", from the fanfiction, "My Immortal". She makes Bella look like a semi-decent character.

Ebony is pretty bad, but I think even she gets usurped in the terrifying realm of HP fanfiction by Rose Potter, the protagonist of "The Girl Who Lived". She' a druid ninja wizard to start, and it really just gets worse from there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't a Mary Sue only a character that appears in fan fictions who quickly become close with the main characters of the universe where the fic is set in, becomes the center of attention and solves all problems that appear thanks to their flawlessness, kinda like a personal wish fulfillment of the author? Like if I write a fic about a girl which joins the Greil Mercenaries, defeats 3/4 of all enemys who appear, singlehandly saves Queen Crimea of an assassination attempt and becomes the girlfriend of Ike.

If we also include that are favored by their universe to be in an important position, like Micaiah thanks to her powers explained by being a descendant of Lehran or Ike who is important thanks to his extraordinary talent as a fighter which he got for being the son of the best sword fighter of his time, then a Fire Emblem Main hero will always be a Mary Sue since it requires them to be the leader of an entire army and free the entire world of some kind of evil. You either need to be a noble or from some kind of bloodline like Marth, Sigurd or Roy or earn you a place in leadership like Ike and Micaiah for example. However if a character is able to earn an important place like that, then he needs to be blessed with extraordinary abilities in order to pull that of (or tons of luck). So a Fire Emblem main-hero always has to be favored by their universe and therefore automatically enters Mary Sue territory.

Edited by BrightBow-User

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, initially, all that Mary-Sue meant was a self-insert in a fanfic that is unfairly favoured. FE RD is not a fanfic, and Micaiah is not a self-insert or unfairly favoured, so under that definition, she isn't a Mary-Sue. If someone is willing to come up with a different definition and argue that Micaiah falls under it (while other Lords don't), feel free.

It's also worth pointing out that Micaiah is the only Lord not to get a super-special powerful unique weapon. And that if she did get Narga, that would be awesome enough that it wouldn't matter if she's a Mary-Sue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's also worth pointing out that Micaiah is the only Lord not to get a super-special powerful unique weapon. And that if she did get Narga, that would be awesome enough that it wouldn't matter if she's a Mary-Sue.

She gets Thani, which is both powerful and unique. Still, your point stands, since it's not nearly on the level of Ragnell (PoR) and certainly not the FE4 holy weapons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's also worth pointing out that Micaiah is the only Lord not to get a super-special powerful unique weapon. And that if she did get Narga, that would be awesome enough that it wouldn't matter if she's a Mary-Sue.

She gets Thani, which is both powerful and unique. Still, your point stands, since it's not nearly on the level of Ragnell (PoR) and certainly not the FE4 holy weapons.

Every Lord gets a 'super-effective against Armors/Horses' weapon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's also worth pointing out that Micaiah is the only Lord not to get a super-special powerful unique weapon. And that if she did get Narga, that would be awesome enough that it wouldn't matter if she's a Mary-Sue.

She gets Thani, which is both powerful and unique. Still, your point stands, since it's not nearly on the level of Ragnell (PoR) and certainly not the FE4 holy weapons.

But Fire Emblem Main Lords usally have a personal rather weak weapon which is effective against cavaliers and armored knights and has a small critical bonus. But this usually never prevents them from getting a personal powerful legendary weapon near the end. (Marth: Rapier - Falchion, Roy: Rapier - SoS, Eliwood - Rapier; Durandal; Hector: Wolfbeil - Armadas; PoR-Ike: Regal Sword - Ragnell etc.) Micaiah is a strange case since she only gets Thani which is merely a magic version of Ike's Regal sword or all those Rapiers but not a superweapon like Ike's Ragnell.

Edit: Looks like I was a bit too late here.

Edited by BrightBow-User

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And fightenengly enough, Bella Swan isn't the biggest Sue. That would be "Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way", from the fanfiction, "My Immortal". She makes Bella look like a semi-decent character.

I dont read fanfiction. That is indeed a Mary Sue as many claim (the name is a dead giveaway) but im talking Canon Sues here. (Mary Sues that appear in original fiction are generally known as Canon Sues)

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Ummm the fact shes the vessel for Yune at all, brings up the issue of Sue-ness.

If someone is willing to come up with a different definition and argue that Micaiah falls under it (while other Lords don't), feel free.

I cannot speak for others in this thread but i for one, have acknowledged other lords as Sues. (YEAH Lyn anyone? Also Ephraim)

Edited by Florina

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey, you forgot Sanaki whom actually has a personality, she's quite matured since FE9.

Honorable mentions go to our other friends:

-Mia

-Ilyana

-Chuck Norris Nolan

-Oliver

Yeah, those. B)

Bleh. Forgot Sanaki. Though, what did she get? Not even half a Heroic BSOD. It's sad, they could have gotten something from that plot twist, but no.

She's not really a great tactician either, since she walks into the trap in 1-8.

She knew it was a trap, she went in to save the prisoners. And it wasn't even a stupid move. Remember how the wolves and MTV were somehow set up for ambushes from different angles? Plus her farsight, which means she can see what's going to happen anyway. Assuming 1-3 was all part of the plan (Sothe seemed well enough on top of the situation), Miccy's perfect record stands. Until 1-9 when she lets Jarod go. Idiot.

It's also worth pointing out that Micaiah is the only Lord not to get a super-special powerful unique weapon. And that if she did get Narga, that would be awesome enough that it wouldn't matter if she's a Mary-Sue.

She gets Thani, which is both powerful and unique. Still, your point stands, since it's not nearly on the level of Ragnell (PoR) and certainly not the FE4 holy weapons.

Nothing's on the level of the FE4 holy weapons, ever. Except possibly Ike.

Edited by Naglfar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think she's a bigger Sue than Ike, she can't kill the final boss because he has to do it even though she is tied much more to the plot than he is. He had that same exclusivity with Ashnard, and he had his own game already.

All the lordesses have to share their importance with a lord, not one has had a game all to herself. Ike has PoR to himself and in Radiant Dawn he is treated as a more important lord. Flawless everything, and Micaiah is treated like a pawn by Pelleas.

Micaiah: Take all the power that I have.

This is what enables him to kill Ashera. Sounds like a Sue to me.

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Except the point is, Ike being able to kill Ashera doesn't make him a Sue as previously stated.

He's the only one that can kill Ashera. None of the previous fire emblem games that I have played have that exclusivity to only one character unless I forgot they did. He also comes with great stats, good availability, a better team, and has two swords exclusive to himself and more than one SS swords to choose from.

Micaiah has a weaker team, only Thani is exclusive to her and only one SS weapon available for her to use. She can't kill the final boss although she has a stronger relation to the story. There is more favor poured to him than there is for her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think she's a bigger Sue than Ike, she can't kill the final boss because he has to do it even though she is tied much more to the plot than he is. He had that same exclusivity with Ashnard, and he had his own game already.

All the lordesses have to share their importance with a lord, not one has had a game all to herself. Ike has PoR to himself and in Radiant Dawn he is treated as a more important lord. Flawless everything, and Micaiah is treated like a pawn by Pelleas.

Micaiah: Take all the power that I have.

This is what enables him to kill Ashera. Sounds like a Sue to me.

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Except the point is, Ike being able to kill Ashera doesn't make him a Sue as previously stated.

He's the only one that can kill Ashera. None of the previous fire emblem games that I have played have that exclusivity to only one character unless I forgot they did. He also comes with great stats, good availability, a better team, and has two swords exclusive to himself and more than one SS swords to choose from.

Micaiah has a weaker team, only Thani is exclusive to her and only one SS weapon available for her to use. She can't kill the final boss although she has a stronger relation to the story. There is more favor poured to him than there is for her.

It really would make sense to put Ike on par with the DB? He has far more experience. Micaiah gets two promotions and is the only beorc to be able to cap luck at 40. Ike's PRF has lost its effectiveness agaisnt mounted/armored. She gets two Thani tomes, and Ike's prf isn't exactly the best. He is the only one able to kill the final boss but Micaiah can attack every enemy in the last two chapters without fear of a counter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but Micaiah can attack every enemy in the last two chapters without fear of a counter.

Yes and no other character can do that.

Yes Ike is a Sue.(atleast in RD) I think we have this established. However Ike is more of a Badass Normal since hes not a magic user or anything. Hes just a dude from Crimea. Micaiah has this horribly painful backstory that she cant even really remember. Shes a Branded, etc. etc. so on. the list continues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think she's a bigger Sue than Ike, she can't kill the final boss because he has to do it even though she is tied much more to the plot than he is. He had that same exclusivity with Ashnard, and he had his own game already.

All the lordesses have to share their importance with a lord, not one has had a game all to herself. Ike has PoR to himself and in Radiant Dawn he is treated as a more important lord. Flawless everything, and Micaiah is treated like a pawn by Pelleas.

Micaiah: Take all the power that I have.

This is what enables him to kill Ashera. Sounds like a Sue to me.

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Except the point is, Ike being able to kill Ashera doesn't make him a Sue as previously stated.

He's the only one that can kill Ashera. None of the previous fire emblem games that I have played have that exclusivity to only one character unless I forgot they did. He also comes with great stats, good availability, a better team, and has two swords exclusive to himself and more than one SS swords to choose from.

Micaiah has a weaker team, only Thani is exclusive to her and only one SS weapon available for her to use. She can't kill the final boss although she has a stronger relation to the story. There is more favor poured to him than there is for her.

It really would make sense to put Ike on par with the DB? He has far more experience. Micaiah gets two promotions and is the only beorc to be able to cap luck at 40. Ike's PRF has lost its effectiveness agaisnt mounted/armored. She gets two Thani tomes, and Ike's prf isn't exactly the best. He is the only one able to kill the final boss but Micaiah can attack every enemy in the last two chapters without fear of a counter.

His lack of battle experience did not hold him against Black Knight or Ashnard in Path of Radiance. Of course I am comparing them, especially when she is possesed by a demon but even then the favor for him is greater. The two Thani tomes and ability to not die in the last two chapters are short compared to her struggle to survive throughout Part 1 while he is already good enough in Part 3 and gets a good sword with 50 uses and a better sword with unlimited uses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I have lost track somewhere. So this is no longer a discussion about who is a Mary Sue. It is now about who is the greater Sue?

Edit: Also I think that if the term Mary Sue can even be applied outside of fan fiction then isn't it only a question of their role in the storyline and not about their game play performance. For example Meg was the favorite of the designer team as stated in the "Background Q and As" which are pinned on this board but that didn't stop here from being a crappy unit. Depending on this some situations need to be judged differently. By gameplay Ike killed dealt the final blow on Ashera, by story it was a united effort of Ike, Micaiah and Yune.

Edited by BrightBow-User

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
while he is already good enough in Part 3 and gets a good sword with 50 uses and a better sword with unlimited uses.

So does Elincia. (OMFG SHE MUST BE A SUE![/deadpan]) And so does the guy you give Alondite to. Also so does everyone after Endgame-2. :|

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...