Why is Micaiah is often called a Mary Sue?

[RNG Princess]

Leave Elincia out of this :P she's not a sue in either games, she's not a forced character for endgame and she gets so little availability in both games that if she was a Sue she'd be to a much lesser degree than Ike or Micaiah, I think he's the biggest Sue of the current main characters.

[Narga_Rocks]

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Ummm the fact shes the vessel for Yune at all, brings up the issue of Sue-ness.

Read better next time. I said don't double-count. That means that you can count the fact that she is a vessel for Yune towards whatever level is needed to be a Mary Sue. Just don't count it 3 times like the other guy was doing. Seriously, my post made that pretty clear. What were you thinking?

[Anouleth]

but Micaiah can attack every enemy in the last two chapters without fear of a counter.

Yes and no other character can do that.

Yes Ike is a Sue.(atleast in RD) I think we have this established. However Ike is more of a Badass Normal since hes not a magic user or anything. Hes just a dude from Crimea. Micaiah has this horribly painful backstory that she cant even really remember. Shes a Branded, etc. etc. so on. the list continues.

Badass Normal only applies in a setting where the majority of characters have special powers. For example, a normal person in a group of superheroes who holds his own. But there are lots of people in Tellius who fight fine with no special powers, even the majority. And Ike also has a painful backstory, with his father killing his mother and then getting killed by the BK.

[Junkhead]

Bleh. Forgot Sanaki. Though, what did she get? Not even half a Heroic BSOD. It's sad, they could have gotten something from that plot twist, but no.

What do you mean "Heroic" blood? Micaiah didn't get it either, none of them use swords. You must mean Heron blood, but that would make Sanaki branded, which she isn't.

Like Florina said, this is an a** pull the writers did.

[Just call me AL]

But Fire Emblem Main Lords usally have a personal rather weak weapon which is effective against cavaliers and armored knights and has a small critical bonus. But this usually never prevents them from getting a personal powerful legendary weapon near the end. (Marth: Rapier - Falchion, Roy: Rapier - SoS, Eliwood - Rapier; Durandal; Hector: Wolfbeil - Armadas; PoR-Ike: Regal Sword - Ragnell etc.) Micaiah is a strange case since she only gets Thani which is merely a magic version of Ike's Regal sword or all those Rapiers but not a superweapon like Ike's Ragnell.

On a related note, neither Sigurd nor Celice get a weak personal weapon that has a small crit bonus and effectiveness against armored units and cavalry. But they do get this powerful superweapon you speak of (read: Tyrfing) however.

[BK-201]

I don't think she's a bigger Sue than Ike, she can't kill the final boss because he has to do it even though she is tied much more to the plot than he is. He had that same exclusivity with Ashnard, and he had his own game already.

All the lordesses have to share their importance with a lord, not one has had a game all to herself. Ike has PoR to himself and in Radiant Dawn he is treated as a more important lord. Flawless everything, and Micaiah is treated like a pawn by Pelleas.

Micaiah: Take all the power that I have.

This is what enables him to kill Ashera. Sounds like a Sue to me.

That was Yune, not Micaiah. It really has nothing to do with her potential Sue-ness. It's like you are attempting to double-count the fact that she is the vessel for Yune. It doesn't work that way.

Except the point is, Ike being able to kill Ashera doesn't make him a Sue as previously stated.

He's the only one that can kill Ashera. None of the previous fire emblem games that I have played have that exclusivity to only one character unless I forgot they did. He also comes with great stats, good availability, a better team, and has two swords exclusive to himself and more than one SS swords to choose from.

Micaiah has a weaker team, only Thani is exclusive to her and only one SS weapon available for her to use. She can't kill the final boss although she has a stronger relation to the story. There is more favor poured to him than there is for her.

It really would make sense to put Ike on par with the DB? He has far more experience. Micaiah gets two promotions and is the only beorc to be able to cap luck at 40. Ike's PRF has lost its effectiveness agaisnt mounted/armored. She gets two Thani tomes, and Ike's prf isn't exactly the best. He is the only one able to kill the final boss but Micaiah can attack every enemy in the last two chapters without fear of a counter.

His lack of battle experience did not hold him against Black Knight or Ashnard in Path of Radiance. Of course I am comparing them, especially when she is possesed by a demon but even then the favor for him is greater. The two Thani tomes and ability to not die in the last two chapters are short compared to her struggle to survive throughout Part 1 while he is already good enough in Part 3 and gets a good sword with 50 uses and a better sword with unlimited uses.

Queen Ellincia has Amiti, unlimited uses, give resistance as well as defense, and acts as a brave weapon. Dying is a trait shared by all dawn brigades for the most part. Ike has crappy resistance, she has crappy defense. On the otherhand Ike has decent defense and Micaiah has killer resistance. RD just scaled enemies to a higher level and it screwed the Dawn Brigade. A capped Ike will have trouble beating the BK and Ashnard unless you give him wrath + adept/resolve or aether and luck.

[Just call me AL]

Bleh. Forgot Sanaki. Though, what did she get? Not even half a Heroic BSOD. It's sad, they could have gotten something from that plot twist, but no.

What do you mean "Heroic" blood? Micaiah didn't get it either, none of them use swords. You must mean Heron blood, but that would make Sanaki branded, which she isn't.

Please read here.

[Anouleth]

Micaiah gets two promotions and is the only beorc to be able to cap luck at 40.

Incorrect. Sanaki, Elincia, Lehran and Laura have 40 luck caps as well.

[BK-201]

Micaiah gets two promotions and is the only beorc to be able to cap luck at 40.

Incorrect. Sanaki, Elincia, Lehran and Laura have 40 luck caps as well.

Really? Wow. I feel clueless. Never use those characters really, only on the beginning of 2nd playthrough.

[Just call me AL]

Just reading this topic however has me thinking that Micaiah was intended to be an escapist character, which wouldn't be too surprising seeing as many video game protagonists are escapist characters, FE lords included. But apparently the whole escapist character strategy, I feel, didn't work so well with Micaiah, due to the fact that she's basically one of the scrappies in the FE series. (It did work with the other FE lords however, like Sigurd for instance. Or Marth.)

[Naglfar]

Bleh. Forgot Sanaki. Though, what did she get? Not even half a Heroic BSOD. It's sad, they could have gotten something from that plot twist, but no.

What do you mean "Heroic" blood? Micaiah didn't get it either, none of them use swords. You must mean Heron blood, but that would make Sanaki branded, which she isn't.

Like Florina said, this is an a** pull the writers did.

Blood? What? Read my post again. Actually, what could you possibly be getting at?

[Victor Fang]

we probably wouldn't be having this discusion if she was a game breaker story wise instead of just upper-mid tier.

[Just call me AL]

we probably wouldn't be having this discusion if she was a game breaker story wise instead of just upper-mid tier.

At what point could you be getting at? (I have a feeling like I might know, but I just wanna be sure.)

Edited January 9, 2010 by LittleAl

[Victor Fang]

The better a character is gameplaywise means that there personalities get a bit of an easy ride.

Sure Haar has the peersonality of a lazy piece of cardboard but he can solo 2-E etc.

[Just call me AL]

The better a character is gameplaywise means that their personalities get a bit of an easy ride.

Marth, IIRC, was considered Upper Mid, as are Roy and Leif. (Lyn too, before the "tier list debaters" and efficiency whores started massively underrating her.) And yet, they're liked. So I wouldn't necessarily say that "the lower X FE character is on tier lists, the less they are liked".

[Anouleth]

The better a character is gameplaywise means that their personalities get a bit of an easy ride.

Marth, IIRC, was considered Upper Mid, as are Roy and Leif. (Lyn too, before the "tier list debaters" and efficiency whores started massively underrating her.) And yet, they're liked. So I wouldn't necessarily say that "the lower X FE character is on tier lists, the less they are liked".

I think it's somewhat true. Nobody seems to like Astrid or Meg or Fiona, but everyone seems to like Mia and Volug and Haar.

[BK-201]

The better a character is gameplaywise means that their personalities get a bit of an easy ride.

Marth, IIRC, was considered Upper Mid, as are Roy and Leif. (Lyn too, before the "tier list debaters" and efficiency whores started massively underrating her.) And yet, they're liked. So I wouldn't necessarily say that "the lower X FE character is on tier lists, the less they are liked".

I think it's somewhat true. Nobody seems to like Astrid or Meg or Fiona, but everyone seems to like Mia and Volug and Haar.

I don't see what's so bad about Lyn. Astrid, Meg, and Fiona aren't liked for the effort needed and the end results don't compensate. I only really like Mia and Haar out of the three but mainly due to personal experience with them. I managed to get Mia to cap all stats at Level 18 without statboosters and Haar almost did at level 14.

[Kinata]

Ike doesn't really seem to be Mr. Popular. He's boring and unsocial, so people only admire him for being a hero and leader. In FE10, he mainly recruits old members of his army who wanted to help in the war while in FE9, he recruits people because he rescued them and/or they wanted to join his army. He doesn't recruit players because he's likeable. I'm pretty sure likeablity is a part of being a Sue. As for his power, I don't think stats should be taken into account because that is separate from the plot. And in terms of plot, both main lords in this game are beloved heroes and saviors, so they are both presumed to be nearly equal in talent.

[Narga_Rocks]

The better a character is gameplaywise means that their personalities get a bit of an easy ride.

Marth, IIRC, was considered Upper Mid, as are Roy and Leif. (Lyn too, before the "tier list debaters" and efficiency whores started massively underrating her.) And yet, they're liked. So I wouldn't necessarily say that "the lower X FE character is on tier lists, the less they are liked".

How are you getting what I bolded from what Victor Fang said? The two have nothing in common.

(paraphrasing Victor Fang) The better a character is in gameplay the freer the ride their personalities get.

This has nothing to do with being worse making them less liked. If their personality is fine, or even likeable, then they can be liked regardless of ability. If, however, a unit that is less good in the game also happens to have a not so great personality, they are then looked at badly. Conversely, a unit with the exact same personality will be liked a lot more should the character be amazing in the game, and people won't care at all about any personality issues. Whether this is true or not is another matter, but as near as I can tell Victor Fang was most certainly not saying what you quoted him to be saying. You made a smash-level argument. Good job.

[Victor Fang]

The better a character is gameplaywise means that their personalities get a bit of an easy ride.

Marth, IIRC, was considered Upper Mid, as are Roy and Leif. (Lyn too, before the "tier list debaters" and efficiency whores started massively underrating her.) And yet, they're liked. So I wouldn't necessarily say that "the lower X FE character is on tier lists, the less they are liked".

its not that. I'm saying the higher they are on the tier list the less likely they are to be disliked. Those in high/god tier will hardly ever get any hate whatsoever and may achieve memetic badass status, while those under criticsm for thier gameplay will often also get hit with any personality disagreements to pour salt into the wound.

There are exceptions to the rule but generally it holds true, especialy in this game.

[Just call me AL]

Its not that. I'm saying the higher they are on the tier list, the less likely they are to be disliked. Those in high/god tier will hardly ever get any hate whatsoever and may achieve memetic badass status, while those under criticsm for thier gameplay will often also get hit with any personality disagreements to pour salt into the wound. There are exceptions to the rule but generally it holds true, especialy in this game.

That's telling me that high/top tirered characters are liked more than anyone outside of high/top tier. However, last time I checked, Upper Mid wasn't a tier of suck.

[Candlejack]

Haar is actually one of the few characters with a noteworthy personality.

And this isn't because I always notice how Peg Knights get shafted in favor of Wyvern Riders.

From SF's story archives:

"Through all the bits and pieces gathered about his history and motivations, it can be assumed that Haar’s constant laziness and nonchalant attitude is at least a partial ruse – he uses it to get closer to Petrine for the sole purpose of attaining revenge, he sheds the image once in the presence of General Shiharam so that he doesn’t see him as hopelessly lazy, and he seems to be quite smart, picking up on situations/knowledge/politics easily, especially for one as lethargic as he seems to be. He even seems to know quite a bit about Crimea’s political situation despite having never been associated with the country. So, though he does really love his sleep, it doesn’t stop him from being a force to be reckoned with both on the battlefield and off; he’s never off his guard even while napping, as he mentions to Ike when he comes to talk to him – he says he woke up once Ike was within fifty paces of him, though he pretended to stay asleep.

A main theme with him seems to be leadership – he resents people with a lust for power and material possessions, only following people and causes he believes in his heart to be right, even if he has to betray his country to do it. To this end, he follows Shiharam Fizzart through thick and thin while being proud of it despite their horrible situation in Daein, and later willingly joins the Laguz Alliance under Ike’s leadership despite being ‘sick to death of serving countries’. The fact that Sephiran describes him as being a “hotshot” when he was younger suggests that Daein’s policies have taken a toll on him, as the lethargic persona he has by the time he’s introduced is far from such a word, and the fact that he’s absolutely sick of fighting and corruption by the time he’s introduced, with a deep resentment toward both Daein and Begnion even suggests disillusionment with the world altogether.

However he maintains a positive attitude and gives advice to those who need it, seeming to be happy with finally living life at his own pace once he’s free from the military. Though his past was full of hardship, he seems to be content with the fact that he never had any doubts about who he followed. Once he retires from fighting permanently, he continues delivering goods for the rest of his days."

You'll also notice how he is the only one that is actually analyzed in depth.

[Saint Nightroad]

When making Micaiah, Intelligent Systems was probably reading a Mary Sue litmus test... and checking every answer... they even gave her a healing touch, which was specifically listed in some tests.

[Fayt Zelpher]

When making Micaiah, Intelligent Systems was probably reading a Mary Sue litmus test... and checking every answer... they even gave her a healing touch, which was specifically listed in some tests.

I'd like to see this test if you can find it.

[Candlejack]

http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm