Why is Micaiah is often called a Mary Sue?

[Mikethfc]

Ike wields Ragnell because it was the only way he could avenge the death in chapter 7 of PoR just seen as his sword if you say he is a mary-sue for that surely this makes Nolan, Edward and Leonardo gary-stus also Ike isn't just because he's the only openly anti-racism beorc and besides he can't deal with Aimmee to save his life

[-Cynthia-]

Ike wields Ragnell because it was the only way he could avenge the death in chapter 7 of PoR just seen as his sword if you say he is a mary-sue for that surely this makes Nolan, Edward and Leonardo gary-stus also Ike isn't just because he's the only openly anti-racism beorc and besides he can't deal with Aimmee to save his life

Avenging the death of one's parents is a pretty common Sue marker. The fact that its a legendary weapon passed down from his father just makes it worse.

Are you equating Ragnell to Caladbolg, Tarvos, and Lughnasadh in plot importance? There's a rather large difference between "only weapon that can kill the goddess" and "something I found in Daein's armory".

Being an anti-racism beorc is more of a Sue trait than not being one, since being racist is usually a flaw (unless said race is just full of bastards, but this doesn't apply to laguz).

I guess Ike is awkward around Aimee, probably not enough to constitute a character flaw though. Neither Ike or Micaiah are very Sueish in terms of relationships IMO, Micaiah has Sothe and implied Pelleas, Ike has implied Soren/Ranulf/ PoR Elincia and Lethe, neither are just attracting anything in a 10 mile radius.

[Just call me AL]

On to the point of these limitus tests, chances are, it's whether or not the person (or people) made the tests would consider a character to be a Mary Sue or not. Not if a character is one. Because really, that term is a very subjective term. And with the way the term is being used nowadays (for example: whenever someone sees a character with even a slight bit of competence and plot relavance, like a main character for example, if that someone hates that character for whatever reason they can think of, chances are they'll be all "ZOMG I hate X character here, especially since X character is in the spotlight a lot and is liked a lot by the other characters, X character must be a Mary Sue!!!"), it might as well be a very meaningless term as well. There really doesn't seem to be a widely accepted definition for the term. What is an annoying, overly heroic and centered on character to one person might be a completely fine character to another person.

Edited January 11, 2010 by LittleAl

[BK-201]

I thought we already conceded Ike had many Sue qualities. Micaiah has more. A past linked to the gods, a child linked to the ruling family of the most powerful empire who gets seperated and somehow lands in Daein. I don't see how you can defend the fact that she is at least two times the Sue that Ike is. Without her they can't stop the goddess, not even the goddess will attack her. That seems like a Sue to me.

[Junkhead]

I thought we already conceded Ike had many Sue qualities. Micaiah has more. A past linked to the gods, a child linked to the ruling family of the most powerful empire who gets seperated and somehow lands in Daein. I don't see how you can defend the fact that she is at least two times the Sue that Ike is. Without her they can't stop the goddess, not even the goddess will attack her. That seems like a Sue to me.

That's Ike.

[BK-201]

I thought we already conceded Ike had many Sue qualities. Micaiah has more. A past linked to the gods, a child linked to the ruling family of the most powerful empire who gets seperated and somehow lands in Daein. I don't see how you can defend the fact that she is at least two times the Sue that Ike is. Without her they can't stop the goddess, not even the goddess will attack her. That seems like a Sue to me.

That's Ike.

First, Ike isn't a she.

Ashera will counter agaisnt Ike.

I already said both are Sues. Micaiah is more of one than Ike.

She is the one who gives him the power to execute the attack.

[Junkhead]

I thought we already conceded Ike had many Sue qualities. Micaiah has more. A past linked to the gods, a child linked to the ruling family of the most powerful empire who gets seperated and somehow lands in Daein. I don't see how you can defend the fact that she is at least two times the Sue that Ike is. Without her they can't stop the goddess, not even the goddess will attack her. That seems like a Sue to me.

That's Ike.

First, Ike isn't a she.

Ashera will counter agaisnt Ike.

I already said both are Sues. Micaiah is more of one than Ike.

She is the one who gives him the power to execute the attack.

So? You got my point.

Against Micaiah, also.

Yes, she is. I never said she wasn't.

Actually, that was Yune.

[BK-201]

And it just so happens that Micaiah is the host of the goddess.

[Junkhead]

Well, that is linked to the fact she is the true Apostle and heir of the Begnion throne, not to Sue-ish if you ask me. You know, since most monarchies in FE aren't teocratic, it's obvious most of the other lords won't end up having two or more important roles as being a ruler and an Apostle, yet many do turn out taking over the throne of their desceased parent/s:

Celice

Yuria

Eirika

Ephraim

Eliwood

Hector

Leaf

Marth

I'm probably missing some. Oh yeah, Micaiah and Ike are the only two lord that weren't raised in a royal family, so that gives more cause for Micaiah to go around helping others more often and become more light hearted to people, so she does have a reason for being loved.

Edited January 11, 2010 by Soul

[Anouleth]

On to the point of these limitus tests, chances are, it's whether or not the person (or people) made the tests would consider a character to be a Mary Sue or not. Not if a character is one. Because really, that term is a very subjective term. And with the way the term is being used nowadays (for example: whenever someone sees a character with even a slight bit of competence and plot relavance, like a main character for example, if that someone hates that character for whatever reason they can think of, chances are they'll be all "ZOMG I hate X character here, especially since X character is in the spotlight a lot and is liked a lot by the other characters, X character must be a Mary Sue!!!"), it might as well be a very meaningless term as well. There really doesn't seem to be a widely accepted definition for the term. What is an annoying, overly heroic and centered on character to one person might be a completely fine character to another person.

This. Until someone is actually willing to define what a Mary-Sue is, this thread is going nowhere. Not that I have any complaints (because I stopped caring as soon as people started posting links to Mary-Sue tests).

Also, lol'd at the picture.

[Candlejack]

From TVTropes:

Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

WELL WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE?

[Narga_Rocks]

From TVTropes:

Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

WELL WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE?

Just another thing for you to use to delude yourself into whatever form of thinking you desire.

Look, you bolded something, so let's break it up:

the character's perceived importance in the story,

She's actually less important than many other FE lords.

their physical design

Are you complaining about silver hair? Ike has blue hair. Aran has green hair. Marcia has pink hair. If everyone has something strange, it's not a Sue-trait. Also, Zihark is silvery-bluish.

and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

"irrelevantly"? Are you talking about sacrifice? That has story qualities. The people wouldn't have loved her as much if not for the healing. It's rather necessary, and her nature is definitely not too idealized and I'm not sure what they mean by "over-skilled", but I'd assume that's more along the lines of "jack of all trades, master of all", which she'd definitely not.

What I find amusing is she'd arguably be more Sue-like if she had a 60% spd growth and a better base, since she'd be doubling everything and she typically 2HKOs stuff (even those troublesome bandits that Volug 3RKOs or worse) so she'd kill everything. Throw earth her way and she'd then dodge almost everything, too. But rather than causing people to complain more loudly about any perceived Sue-ness, they'd probably be loving her because she'd be awesome in the game.

[Candlejack]

From TVTropes:

Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

WELL WHAT DO WE HAVE HERE?

Just another thing for you to use to delude yourself into whatever form of thinking you desire.

Look, you bolded something, so let's break it up:

the character's perceived importance in the story,

She's actually less important than many other FE lords.

their physical design

Are you complaining about silver hair? Ike has blue hair. Aran has green hair. Marcia has pink hair. If everyone has something strange, it's not a Sue-trait. Also, Zihark is silvery-bluish.

and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

"irrelevantly"? Are you talking about sacrifice? That has story qualities. The people wouldn't have loved her as much if not for the healing. It's rather necessary, and her nature is definitely not too idealized and I'm not sure what they mean by "over-skilled", but I'd assume that's more along the lines of "jack of all trades, master of all", which she'd definitely not.

What I find amusing is she'd arguably be more Sue-like if she had a 60% spd growth and a better base, since she'd be doubling everything and she typically 2HKOs stuff (even those troublesome bandits that Volug 3RKOs or worse) so she'd kill everything. Throw earth her way and she'd then dodge almost everything, too. But rather than causing people to complain more loudly about any perceived Sue-ness, they'd probably be loving her because she'd be awesome in the game.

1. It says "PERCEIVED" importance. Why she was added at all is beyond me. She's about as important as Elincia after Part 1 and throughout the whole story, and even then, they HAD to add her somewhere.

2. Well, her silver hair, the fact she's heron-branded A.K.A. very rare, she's a lot older than she looks, she's loved by, liek, three guys at the same time for her unmatched beauty, etc.

3. Oh yeah, Sacrifice, which is seen only in one cutscene. L_L . And overskilled as in she can:

a) Be the only host for Yune.

B) Is able to heal people at the cost of her own well-being; NOBODY else can do that.

c) The fact that her Brand is on her hand rather than her forehead which is normal for many Branded.

d) She's a caring person yet a bitter person so she'll put herself in harm's way unless its for an absolutely retarded reason like for protecting her empire against an equally retarded Begnion Senate.

e) DID I MENTION A POWER LEVEL OF OVER 9000?

[Junkhead]

Since there's no consensus on a precise definition, the best way to describe the phenomenon is by example of the kind of character pretty much everyone could agree to be a Mary Sue. These traits usually reference the character's perceived importance in the story, their physical design and an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

Actually, such importance for a protagonist is fundamental for most characters in any game, book or novel. Have you ever heard of Harry Potter? LOL.

What the hell does physical desing have to do? Micaiah is beautiful, sure, but who says Lyndis and Eirika aren't? They're beauty is even more praised at times than Micaiah's.

Over-skilled? How? Because certainly Sacrifice is something that other branded people could have, and that's not a skill but a gift, we also don't see Micaiah overly skilled with her light magic, she is also a little bad in terms of gameplay.

She isn't over-idealized, she just has more roles...

- Silver haired maiden: When being raised in poverty and suffering the fear of rejection due to her species, Daein is the only place she could call "Home". She became fond of the people there, so why not help them out? All she does is cure some people and lead a band which helps drive out the bad guys.

- True Apostle and Heir of the throne: Well, like I also stated before, Begnion has a teocratic goverment, so being the first born obviously makes her the heir of the throne and the voice of the goddess. Of course, no other FE lord fills these role because:

- They weren't raised in poverty and orphaned (Lyndis had her parents until a late age).

- They were all born in royalty.

- Their goverment wasn't teocratic.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Actually, such importance for a protagonist is fundamental for most characters in any game, book or novel. Have you ever heard of Harry Potter? LOL

EDIT. nevermind. i read that wrong.

Micaiah's past is tragic. She was pretty much tossed aside (to escape) after the Assassination of the Apostle Misaha. She has no more family she is aware of and doesnt remember being Begnion royalty.

Shes a seeress, she can heal WITHOUT STAVES, her hair is constantly commented on by many characters. She has two titles! TWO! Silver-Haired Maiden and Priestess/Maiden of Dawn. Come on.

Shes a Sue. Whether you like it or not, shes a bloody Sue!

Edited January 12, 2010 by Florina

[Junkhead]

Micaiah's past is tragic. She was pretty much tossed aside (to escape) after the Assassination of the Apostle Misaha. She has no more family she is aware of and doesnt remember being Begnion royalty.

She can't remember something she didn't even have the capability if recognizing, she was a baby, she couldn't have escaped Begnion by herself.

Shes a seeress, she can heal WITHOUT STAVES

She's branded, this should not apply when stating she is a Sue since this IS Fire Emblem after all and branded could have these powers. Also consider she is descent of Herons, they could heal with their melodies, and this could be the result of mixing Heron Laguz blood with a Beorc's. Nothing intended to make her perfect, actually.

Her hair is constantly commented on by many characters.

Just tell me, would you find more recognizable? A bunch of kids and a grown man? Or the only silver-haired girl on the the group who has the ability to heal while others can just kill?

She has two titles! TWO! Silver-Haired Maiden and Priestess/Maiden of Dawn. Come on.

Perhaps you didn't read what I have stated, do I have to go through it AGAIN?

Shes a Sue. Whether you like it or not, shes a bloody Sue!

I never said she wasn't, I just don't like it when people overdo that.

[Sol Hiryu]

I can't believe this has actually turned into an argument about if she's a sue or not, and if Ike is actually more of a stu. Ridiculous.

Look, the term "Mary-Sue" was originally meant to mean someone that was too perfect--which was usually a gratuitous self-insertion by the author. Even now, you'll see fics with original characters touting them as "secret princess of so and so", or "hidden daughter of important character who falls in love with lead character", and so on. This was usually the norm in most places where fanfiction exists.

Eventually, other things made their way in. Does the character have any physical features that sets them apart from the rest? Special powers no one else has? Secret and terrible past? A lot of those were factored in at some point, and now all people do is list them to see what traits they have.

A lot of people forget that storytelling has a lot to do with how a character is perceived or not. Someone like Ike, who has Stu-ish qualities, is usually not labeled one because FE9 did a fairly good job in showing that he wasn't perfect. (FE10 might be a different story, but eh). Someone like Micaiah, however...it's a sad case. It's inevitable that she'd be labeled a Sue, with how many special qualities she has and how many times the story itself caters to them.

Like I said before, Micaiah could have had a lot of Sue traits and still have turned out to be a decent character, although she'd still be called a Mary Sue. But, again, storytelling is the biggest factor in defining a character. Because all we see of Micaiah is all the times she's displaying her abilities, the story sets her up as a Mary Sue.

(This is not saying Micaiah is a bad character, FYI. I like her for the most part. But FE10 did make her a Sue in terms of storyline reasons, and it's pretty hard to contest it as all her good traits heavily outnumber her character flaws.)

[Naglfar]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

This goes nicely in depth, even with plenty of sub-tropes. I can't think of something it doesn't cover. Let's use this to determine how Suish Micaiah is, even though we all agree she is and shouldn't be having this stupid argument in the first place.

[Anouleth]

c) The fact that her Brand is on her hand rather than her forehead which is normal for many Branded.

Umm, I don't know where you got that it was normal for the Brand to be on the forehead. Soren is the only one we see with a Brand on the forehead, and I assume this is because all Dragons have a mark of some sort on their forehead. What Branded do we know of?

Micaiah, Brand is on her hand.

Soren, Brand is on his forehead.

Zelgius, Brand is on his back.

Petrine, Brand is not shown, but is definitely not on her forehead.

Stefan, Brand is not shown.

[Junkhead]

The brand is on different spots due to the different species they hail from, I suppose...

Petrine must also descent from the dragons, just look at her hair.

I doubt of what Zelgius is descendant from.

Stefan is descendant of lions, it has been mentioned that he is descendant of the hero, Soan.

Also, stop with the TV Tropes crap, I have already explained many things in the previous page, many things being rather reasonable if you compare it to other series like Twilight, in which, the main character is liked by no reason at all.

[VincentASM]

Petrine's brand is on her chest. You can just about see it on her official art.

[Junkhead]

Ah, I see...

So...these things are normal in FE universe (Or at least in Tellius), like not being human and having a mark such as the one every branded had. Or do you not remember Misaha and the same mark and the same hand as Micaiah's?

[Just call me AL]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

This goes nicely in depth, even with plenty of sub-tropes. I can't think of something it doesn't cover. Let's use this to determine how Suish Micaiah is, even though we all agree she is and shouldn't be having this stupid argument in the first place.

Same site also goes by the "there is no widely-accepted way to tell if a character is a Mary Sue or not" mantra. (Which is very true.)

Also from TV Tropes:

Flanderized Tropes: Mary Sue. Its gotten to the point where any character who has even a slight degree of competence and plot relevance (like, say, the main characters) getting labeled a Sue.

This pretty much shows how people don't do enough research on the term, and applies the label for whatever reason they can think of.

Edited January 12, 2010 by LittleAl

[Junkhead]

I never said she wasn't, I just don't like it when people overdo that.

[Narga_Rocks]

Flanderized Tropes: Mary Sue. Its gotten to the point where any character who has even a slight degree of competence and plot relevance (like, say, the main characters) getting labeled a Sue.

This pretty much shows how people don't do enough research on the term, and applies the label for whatever reason they can think of.

I agree. Mostly people who hate her and want an excuse for that feeling.