Best promotions.

[Salad Utensil]

Except the swordsmaster can double Cyclops and I'm pretty sure they need 1 critical only. Silencer isn't reliable compared to the critical.

If SM Joshua can crit kill a Cyclops, than Assassin Joshua can crit kill it too. This advantage you give is completely nonunique as Assassin Joshua will never have worse offense than SM Joshua due to a level advantage and is going to be at worse only going to be 1 point of strength off. However, if you're wrong than Assasin is obviously better because having the CHANCE to 1RKO is better than not even having the chance to...

[Rewjeo]

Fourteen crit is 28 SKL. Even with supports, that's a reasonable amount of crit since enemies have luck. And even if they BOTH 4HKO, SM Josh still has a 75% chance to ORKO compared to Assassin Josh's... 74.25% Although if he needs a double crit (unlikely) then he has 25% vs. 12.25%, so there's still a win there, but it's small.

'Kay, I'm back to Assassin Joshua. EXP boost plus occasional huge boost + lockpicks and better vision.

[Candlejack]

Fourteen crit is 28 SKL. Even with supports, that's a reasonable amount of crit since enemies have luck. And even if they BOTH 4HKO, SM Josh still has a 75% chance to ORKO compared to Assassin Josh's... 74.25% Although if he needs a double crit (unlikely) then he has 25% vs. 12.25%, so there's still a win there, but it's small.

'Kay, I'm back to Assassin Joshua. EXP boost plus occasional huge boost + lockpicks and better vision.

Okay, time to DISSEMBLE.

1. K lets compare 20/20 average stats between SM Josh and Assassin Josh:

SM wins HP by +2 and STR by +1.9 , while Assassin wins SKL +1 and lolRES +2. So Joshua gets a lead in HP and pretty much gets a lead in STR, while Assassin wins in a stat they both overkill and lolRES. NOT a huge lead, and since SM gets a higher STR, he gets a larger chance to KO enemies Assassin may not.

2. SM gets a permanent and RELIABLE critical bonus. Assassin gets an additional side skill that is only activated regularly if you give him a Killer. Even then, SM criticals kill enemies JUST as well as Assassin's due to higher STR. So then we just have to judge based on other things.

3. wtf is this EXP boost shit? And "huge boost" is rare unless you apply some favoritism to him, and then he'll need lockpicks for a secondary function Colm beats him SUPERBLY at anyway, and better vision is overrated since, aside from the Creature Campaign, there are a grand total of three/four chapters with FOW, one where Joshua won't even PROMOTE unless you arena abuse.

[Shadow Mir]

Fourteen crit is 28 SKL. Even with supports, that's a reasonable amount of crit since enemies have luck. And even if they BOTH 4HKO, SM Josh still has a 75% chance to ORKO compared to Assassin Josh's... 74.25% Although if he needs a double crit (unlikely) then he has 25% vs. 12.25%, so there's still a win there, but it's small.

'Kay, I'm back to Assassin Joshua. EXP boost plus occasional huge boost + lockpicks and better vision.

I'm not seeing the usefulness of extra vision when there are only like what, four chapters in the game where there's fog, not counting skirmishes? You only run into three regardless of route. And Joshua's not likely to be promoted for two of them. Lockpicks? You mean the same lockpicks that are about as expensive as silver weapons (and killer weapons, for that matter)? I'd rather not need 'em. Also, Silencer is unlikely to even activate regularly unless I stack him with Killing Edges, which can be quite pricey. Plus, there aren't very many enemies that Silencer would actually be USEFUL on (I can count the number of enemy classes that Silencer is useful on on one hand, and all of them are rare).

Edited January 18, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Parrhesia]

Rogue!Colm or Rennac should be all you need for lockpicking. It's a wasted slot for a combat unit that could be used on, say, an Elixir, or something useful. When an SM crit usually oneshots anything, and activates more often...

Anyway, Audhulma SM takes out Cyclops easily.

Edited January 18, 2010 by The Ferret Whisperer

[Florete]

Not seeing how Assassin Josh > Swordmaster.

Experience boost is cool. But for it to really matter, he first has to keep a consistent ~3 level lead on SM Josh just to tie Str and HP. He needs 2-3 more levels to actually start winning. And then of course, +15% crit is better than another RNG roll on half your crit. I don't understand how Silencer can be better unless he's fighting a Cyclops or something, and even then a strong enough weapon can at least get him to 4HKO.

Lockpicks? Lol. I can buy Chest Keys.

FoW vision? That's kinda cool. It would be cooler if there was more than just Rausten Court left in the dark.

[Rewjeo]

Silencer + Crit is close to Crit + 15. Especially with the (slight) level lead which means that SM has no real leads. Lockpicks and vision is really just a tiebreaker IMO.

[Shadow Mir]

Silencer + Crit is close to Crit + 15. Especially with the (slight) level lead which means that SM has no real leads. Lockpicks and vision is really just a tiebreaker IMO.

Unless I'm stacking an Assassin with Killing Edges, Silencer's activation rate will be nowhere near reliable. Plus, the only enemies that Silencer would be useful on are all uncommon. Also, what level lead? The level lead that won't ever really show unless I'm favoring Assassin, who pretty much HAS to use expensive weapons for Silencer to be anything but unreliable? As for the bold: Never mind the fact that lockpicks are about as expensive as silver and killer weapons, the latter of which the Assassin NEEDS for Silencer to even activate semi-regularly. And the vision is only really going to be useful in Rausten Court, most likely.

[Rewjeo]

Cuz we totally can't afford to buy expensive weapons late in the game. If we give Assassin Josh Killing Edges/Shamshirs, then his crit + Lethality will be roughly equal to SM Josh's crit. If the only enemies that is useful for are uncommon, then so are the enemies that SM crit is useful for.

The fact that I see it as a tiebreaker means that it means just about nothing. It's there, but it's not much.

[Salad Utensil]

Unless I'm stacking an Assassin with Killing Edges, Silencer's activation rate will be nowhere near reliable. Plus, the only enemies that Silencer would be useful on are all uncommon. Also, what level lead? The level lead that won't ever really show unless I'm favoring Assassin, who pretty much HAS to use expensive weapons for Silencer to be anything but unreliable? As for the bold: Never mind the fact that lockpicks are about as expensive as silver and killer weapons, the latter of which the Assassin NEEDS for Silencer to even activate semi-regularly. And the vision is only really going to be useful in Rausten Court, most likely.

You're arguing against the points that are the least in favor of Assassin instead of showing how 15% crit is better than faster Exp gains. If they have similar offense, a level lead may translate to more stats due to Assassin being able to get more level ups than SM like speed (lol), skill (lol), defense, and resistance. If we stop buying Silver and Killers than Joshua as a SM will have bad offense as well, bad offense is not unique to Assassin Joshua.

Why are lockpicks so bad and fog vision so bad? Rather than being forced to field Colm or Rennac in order to open those annoying gates, doors, or torches you have a character will still good offense. If anything Lockpicks+Fog vision+lethality>15% Crit which you only gain milage from if you are willing to boost Joshua's crit to rediculous proportions...where you are forced to shell out for killer swords anyway

Some person I don't know's personal experience with experience:

From FEGenesis

tested some exp gain differences between Josh's different promotions, and found out that SM gives 7 exp for a kill vs 23 from Assassin from a lvl 12 bandit. That's a pretty significant difference; in ~six kills, Josh will have gotten 2 levels as an Assassin as opposed to 1 as an SM.

Against a generic level 3 promoted enemy unit,

As a level 1 SM,

Experience from doing damage = [31 + (3 + 20) - (1 + 20)] / 3 = 11

Experience from defeating (base)

= [(3 x 3) + 60] - { [(1 x 3) + 60] / 1 } = 6

Experience from defeating enemy = [11 + 6 + 20 + 0 + 0)] x 1 = 37 exp

As a level 1 Assassin,

Experience from doing damage = [31 + (3 + 20) - (1 + 20)] / 3 = 11

Experience from defeating (base)

= [(3 x 3) + 60] - { [(1 x 3) + 40] / 1 } = 26

Experience from defeating enemy = [11 + 26 + 20 + 0 + 0)] x 1 or ~1.8 = 57 or 100 exp

Exp gain really favors Assassin as the exp gains increase due to Silencer, so I can see Assassin easily eclipsing SM.

That exp formula is nasty.

Rogue!Colm or Rennac should be all you need for lockpicking. It's a wasted slot for a combat unit that could be used on, say, an Elixir, or something useful. When an SM crit usually oneshots anything, and activates more often...

Anyway, Audhulma SM takes out Cyclops easily.

This argument is rediculous. You are suggesting we waste a deployment spot on Colm or Rennac over one inventory spot for Joshua >.<

Its not like he will ever need more than 3 spots for weapons since he can't use anything, but swords anyway.

Okay, time to DISSEMBLE.

1. K lets compare 20/20 average stats between SM Josh and Assassin Josh:

SM wins HP by +2 and STR by +1.9 , while Assassin wins SKL +1 and lolRES +2. So Joshua gets a lead in HP and pretty much gets a lead in STR, while Assassin wins in a stat they both overkill and lolRES. NOT a huge lead, and since SM gets a higher STR, he gets a larger chance to KO enemies Assassin may not.

2. SM gets a permanent and RELIABLE critical bonus. Assassin gets an additional side skill that is only activated regularly if you give him a Killer. Even then, SM criticals kill enemies JUST as well as Assassin's due to higher STR. So then we just have to judge based on other things.

3. wtf is this EXP boost shit? And "huge boost" is rare unless you apply some favoritism to him, and then he'll need lockpicks for a secondary function Colm beats him SUPERBLY at anyway, and better vision is overrated since, aside from the Creature Campaign, there are a grand total of three/four chapters with FOW, one where Joshua won't even PROMOTE unless you arena abuse.

1. The fact that you did a comparison for 20/20 discredits you. However, to humor the notion, you should be aware that Assassin Joshua has a much higher chance of reaching this level than SM Joshua ingame. The win in Resistence is definitly better than the win in Strength and HP why? 54HP is so high that his durability is already good enough and that extra strength his only useful if you can show that it isn't superflorous. Resistence is one of Joshua's weaker areas anyway, so it may help more than that extra Hp for his durability when Baels come in groups to attack you. Of course with 50 something Hp he's basically already invincible to begin with.

2. 15% is not reliable unless you do a set up to boost it to at least into the 50s which any character can do. The point I bring up about lethality and the additional bonus to EXP it provides was to show that it in addition to the lockpicking and fog vision is at least as good as that 15% innate crit which only benefits him. The bonus to exp means other PCS can get more kills and the thief-like utility means you don't have to deploy rennac and colm as often.

3. If you would actually play the game you would actually notice that assassins gain more ExP for kills. Additionally you could check the calculations page this wonderful website provides for you as well. Why does colm even matter when we are talking about Joshua to begin with. How about we just don't field Colm and Joshua can pick those locks for you, now you can spend that extra deployment spot on an extra healer like say Natasha.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Brighton

[Candlejack]

Still, you're saying that a permanent bonus to critical, the thing that will most likely benefit Joshua the most on TOP of a higher STR, is worse than a rarely activated bonus except with an item slot, and completely unnecessary bonuses such as lockpicking and lolvision?

GREAT LOGIC.

Especially since none of Joshua's supports, save Gerik and Lolarachel, offer him critical bonuses, he cannot further capitalize with Assassin crit.

SM Joshua with a Killing Edge and an A support with Gerik/B support with Larachel, I think, has the highest critical rate in the game. Could be wrong but still.

[Shadow Mir]

Cuz we totally can't afford to buy expensive weapons late in the game. If we give Assassin Josh Killing Edges/Shamshirs, then his crit + Lethality will be roughly equal to SM Josh's crit. If the only enemies that is useful for are uncommon, then so are the enemies that SM crit is useful for.

The fact that I see it as a tiebreaker means that it means just about nothing. It's there, but it's not much.

Killing Edges are first buyable in Chapter 14, and last I checked, that's BEFORE the Silver Card comes into play, if that's what you're getting at. And needless to say, Killer weapons aren't all that one'd want. There are Steel and Silver Blades, Battle Axes, as well as Barrier and Physic staves to take into account, as well as those promotion items...

[Candlejack]

Yeah, I'd agree with him that promotion items > Killers.

[Florete]

Someone missed these.

Lockpicks? Lol. I can buy Chest Keys.

FoW vision? That's kinda cool. It would be cooler if there was more than just Rausten Court left in the dark.

To expand on the Chest Keys point: There are likely only 3 more maps left with chests by the time Joshua promotes, 2 of which give you plenty of deployment slots anyway. I can deploy anyone with a Chest Key to open Chests, or just leave them in the Convoy and use my Lord or something. The Lockpick argument for Joshua isn't near useless; it's completely useless.

Looking at that experience gain, I can only really see Assassin tieing Swordmaster, and only once it's caught up in Str/HP. Then again, SM has +4 Str cap, and although his averages suggest he won't reach there soon, there's always the possibility of getting blessed, which in this case quite obviously would make the SM better.

At this point I'm closer to thinking they're even than either one really winning.

[Candlejack]

Meh, still its a matter of expanding his combat ability versus adding a bunch of nigh useless secondary abilities.

[Shadow Mir]

Why are lockpicks so bad and fog vision so bad? Rather than being forced to field Colm or Rennac in order to open those annoying gates, doors, or torches you have a character will still good offense. If anything Lockpicks+Fog vision+lethality>15% Crit

Granted, Rennac is mediocre, but you underestimate Colm. And like I said, you have to take into account other stuff like promotion items and Physic staves, which deserve higher priority than lockpicks. And I didn't say extra vision in fog is bad; I merely said it isn't much use when you can only take advantage of it for one map (Rausten). Also, there ore only like three maps with chests by the time Joshua promotes, and one of those happens to be Rausten, where I get like 1001 unit slots.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Rewjeo]

If you need them. This game throws you a ton of promo items. And then there's the master seal. Now, if you DO need them, then I'd say that they're the most valuable thing, but I doubt you need many. Plus Killing Edges are only 1300 a piece, so it's not like they're hugely expensive. And Shamshirs are only 1200, although I don't know if/when they're buyable.

If Josh has 30 CRIT against an enemy as an assassin, then he has a 40.5% chance to either critical or activate lethality on any one attack. SM Josh has a 45%. If Assassin Josh has 40 CRIT, he has a 55% chance to crit/lethality vs. SM Josh's... 55% chance to critical. As long as Josh can get his hands on high crit weapons, the chances are virtually identical.

Edit: @ RFoF: Even sounds about right to me. Right now I feel that Assassin>SM, but it's by such a small amount that it could easily change.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Slize

[Shadow Mir]

If you need them. This game throws you a ton of promo items. And then there's the master seal. Now, if you DO need them, then I'd say that they're the most valuable thing, but I doubt you need many. Plus Killing Edges are only 1300 a piece, so it's not like they're hugely expensive. And Shamshirs are only 1200, although I don't know if/when they're buyable.

If Josh has 30 CRIT against an enemy as an assassin, then he has a 40.5% chance to either critical or activate lethality on any one attack. SM Josh has a 45%. If Assassin Josh has 40 CRIT, he has a 55% chance to crit/lethality vs. SM Josh's... 55% chance to critical. As long as Josh can get his hands on high crit weapons, the chances are virtually identical.

Edit: @ RFoF: Even sounds about right to me. Right now I feel that Assassin>SM, but it's by such a small amount that it could easily change.

Let's not forget other stuff like Physic staves, which cost 3750 gold, and Barrier staves, which cost 2250 gold. Regarding promotion items, I'll give you that, though there could be trouble if, say, I promote Ross to Pirate, for example, which is why I brought them up. Speaking of which, there's the bit about Eirika route being down one knight crest relative to Ephraim route.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Richter Renard

[Salad Utensil]

If you need them. This game throws you a ton of promo items. And then there's the master seal. Now, if you DO need them, then I'd say that they're the most valuable thing, but I doubt you need many. Plus Killing Edges are only 1300 a piece, so it's not like they're hugely expensive. And Shamshirs are only 1200, although I don't know if/when they're buyable.

If Josh has 30 CRIT against an enemy as an assassin, then he has a 40.5% chance to either critical or activate lethality on any one attack. SM Josh has a 45%. If Assassin Josh has 40 CRIT, he has a 55% chance to crit/lethality vs. SM Josh's... 55% chance to critical. As long as Josh can get his hands on high crit weapons, the chances are virtually identical.

Edit: @ RFoF: Even sounds about right to me. Right now I feel that Assassin>SM, but it's by such a small amount that it could easily change.

I can't say I disagree with the bolded so I'll just settle the argument as that for now. I guess chest keys eliminate the point of thiefs, assassins, and rogues altogether endgame but whatever.

Let's not forget other stuff like Physic staves, which cost 3750 gold, and Barrier staves, which cost 2250 gold. Regarding promotion items, I'll give you that, though there could be trouble if, say, I promote Ross to Pirate, for example, which is why I brought them up. Speaking of which, there's the bit about Eirika route being down one knight crest relative to Ephraim route.

I'm not sure what your point is, but this game just throws vast amounts of gold at you so even if staves are expensive you can easily afford them. In games where there aren't funds ranks/you don't care about ranks than money becomes even less of an issue.

Edited January 18, 2010 by Brighton

[BK-201]

Unless I'm stacking an Assassin with Killing Edges, Silencer's activation rate will be nowhere near reliable. Plus, the only enemies that Silencer would be useful on are all uncommon. Also, what level lead? The level lead that won't ever really show unless I'm favoring Assassin, who pretty much HAS to use expensive weapons for Silencer to be anything but unreliable? As for the bold: Never mind the fact that lockpicks are about as expensive as silver and killer weapons, the latter of which the Assassin NEEDS for Silencer to even activate semi-regularly. And the vision is only really going to be useful in Rausten Court, most likely.

You're arguing against the points that are the least in favor of Assassin instead of showing how 15% crit is better than faster Exp gains. If they have similar offense, a level lead may translate to more stats due to Assassin being able to get more level ups than SM like speed (lol), skill (lol), defense, and resistance. If we stop buying Silver and Killers than Joshua as a SM will have bad offense as well, bad offense is not unique to Assassin Joshua.

Why are lockpicks so bad and fog vision so bad? Rather than being forced to field Colm or Rennac in order to open those annoying gates, doors, or torches you have a character will still good offense. If anything Lockpicks+Fog vision+lethality>15% Crit which you only gain milage from if you are willing to boost Joshua's crit to rediculous proportions...where you are forced to shell out for killer swords anyway

Some person I don't know's personal experience with experience:

From FEGenesis

tested some exp gain differences between Josh's different promotions, and found out that SM gives 7 exp for a kill vs 23 from Assassin from a lvl 12 bandit. That's a pretty significant difference; in ~six kills, Josh will have gotten 2 levels as an Assassin as opposed to 1 as an SM.

Against a generic level 3 promoted enemy unit,

As a level 1 SM,

Experience from doing damage = [31 + (3 + 20) - (1 + 20)] / 3 = 11

Experience from defeating (base)

= [(3 x 3) + 60] - { [(1 x 3) + 60] / 1 } = 6

Experience from defeating enemy = [11 + 6 + 20 + 0 + 0)] x 1 = 37 exp

As a level 1 Assassin,

Experience from doing damage = [31 + (3 + 20) - (1 + 20)] / 3 = 11

Experience from defeating (base)

= [(3 x 3) + 60] - { [(1 x 3) + 40] / 1 } = 26

Experience from defeating enemy = [11 + 26 + 20 + 0 + 0)] x 1 or ~1.8 = 57 or 100 exp

Exp gain really favors Assassin as the exp gains increase due to Silencer, so I can see Assassin easily eclipsing SM.

That exp formula is nasty.

Rogue!Colm or Rennac should be all you need for lockpicking. It's a wasted slot for a combat unit that could be used on, say, an Elixir, or something useful. When an SM crit usually oneshots anything, and activates more often...

Anyway, Audhulma SM takes out Cyclops easily.

This argument is rediculous. You are suggesting we waste a deployment spot on Colm or Rennac over one inventory spot for Joshua >.<

Its not like he will ever need more than 3 spots for weapons since he can't use anything, but swords anyway.

Okay, time to DISSEMBLE.

1. K lets compare 20/20 average stats between SM Josh and Assassin Josh:

SM wins HP by +2 and STR by +1.9 , while Assassin wins SKL +1 and lolRES +2. So Joshua gets a lead in HP and pretty much gets a lead in STR, while Assassin wins in a stat they both overkill and lolRES. NOT a huge lead, and since SM gets a higher STR, he gets a larger chance to KO enemies Assassin may not.

2. SM gets a permanent and RELIABLE critical bonus. Assassin gets an additional side skill that is only activated regularly if you give him a Killer. Even then, SM criticals kill enemies JUST as well as Assassin's due to higher STR. So then we just have to judge based on other things.

3. wtf is this EXP boost shit? And "huge boost" is rare unless you apply some favoritism to him, and then he'll need lockpicks for a secondary function Colm beats him SUPERBLY at anyway, and better vision is overrated since, aside from the Creature Campaign, there are a grand total of three/four chapters with FOW, one where Joshua won't even PROMOTE unless you arena abuse.

1. The fact that you did a comparison for 20/20 discredits you. However, to humor the notion, you should be aware that Assassin Joshua has a much higher chance of reaching this level than SM Joshua ingame. The win in Resistence is definitly better than the win in Strength and HP why? 54HP is so high that his durability is already good enough and that extra strength his only useful if you can show that it isn't superflorous. Resistence is one of Joshua's weaker areas anyway, so it may help more than that extra Hp for his durability when Baels come in groups to attack you. Of course with 50 something Hp he's basically already invincible to begin with.

2. 15% is not reliable unless you do a set up to boost it to at least into the 50s which any character can do. The point I bring up about lethality and the additional bonus to EXP it provides was to show that it in addition to the lockpicking and fog vision is at least as good as that 15% innate crit which only benefits him. The bonus to exp means other PCS can get more kills and the thief-like utility means you don't have to deploy rennac and colm as often.

3. If you would actually play the game you would actually notice that assassins gain more ExP for kills. Additionally you could check the calculations page this wonderful website provides for you as well. Why does colm even matter when we are talking about Joshua to begin with. How about we just don't field Colm and Joshua can pick those locks for you, now you can spend that extra deployment spot on an extra healer like say Natasha.

1. What. Res > Str, Hp? How does resistnace help more than health when Baels come? Baels use STR not MAG.

2. 15% + 1/2 SKL + Weapon Bonus + Supports. It works well even w/o a killing edge. The assassins kill rate will be lower if you have to rely on silencer to kill the tougher enemies.

3. Except the chest areas don't have masses of units near them. The amount he kills will be lower with that task as he can't multitask super efficiently.

[Candlejack]

Since when the hell did RES > STR and HP? You're absolutely retarded if you think that, and it isn't even a matter of debate whether or not its important in a game where there are few enemy magic users.

And why waste a item slot on Joshua for lockpicks when you can just use Rogue!Colm for the job? Besides, Colm does a better job at that anyway.

[BK-201]

Since when the hell did RES > STR and HP? You're absolutely retarded if you think that, and it isn't even a matter of debate whether or not its important in a game where there are few enemy magic users.

And why waste a item slot on Joshua for lockpicks when you can just use Rogue!Colm for the job? Besides, Colm does a better job at that anyway.

Apparently he says resistance helps when Baels attack. XD

[Candlejack]

... Baels...

The guys with around -67 accuracy? The ones with even LESS AS? Those shits?

MAKES PERFECT SENSE. And Mogalls are shit too once you, I don't know, engage them in combat.

[BK-201]

The win in Resistence is definitly better than the win in Strength and HP why? 54HP is so high that his durability is already good enough and that extra strength his only useful if you can show that it isn't superflorous. Resistence is one of Joshua's weaker areas anyway, so it may help more than that extra Hp for his durability when Baels come in groups to attack you.

That was failed. Although now I will waste time to show why.

Firstly, Baels deal physical damage, extra resistance is useless. Secondly, lolhit from monsters. And also that strength when used in a critical counts three times as much. A pretty big difference when he is hitting criticals at good rates while the assassin isn't silencing super often and has weaker criticals. It's always nice to have a cushion to land on which that extra hp essentially is.

[Shadow Mir]

The win in Resistence is definitly better than the win in Strength and HP why? 54HP is so high that his durability is already good enough and that extra strength his only useful if you can show that it isn't superflorous. Resistence is one of Joshua's weaker areas anyway, so it may help more than that extra Hp for his durability when Baels come in groups to attack you.

The heck? Not only do we have a failure in grammar, we also have a failure in logic. XD First off, it's only 1 more point in RES. Second, mages are uncommon compared to physical enemies. Also, Baels? You mean the same Baels that have fail accuracy? Those losers? I fail to see why Baels are a significant threat with their inaccurate weapons...

Edited January 18, 2010 by Richter Renard