What anime/manga are you following right now?

[Florete]

Hm...I picked some new season shows:

Fractale

Gosick

Kimi ni Todoke 2

Mahou Shoujo Madoka★Magica (UNLIMITED SHAFT WORKS)

Rio: Rainbow Gate (this is bad, though, I might drop it)

And I plan to watch Cardfight because card games ftw.

There was an Ore no Imouto discussion earlier, wasn't there? I'm wondering, how did anyone here who saw it respond to it? Because I found it extremely disappointing and annoying.

[Ein]

There was an Ore no Imouto discussion earlier, wasn't there? I'm wondering, how did anyone here who saw it respond to it? Because I found it extremely disappointing and annoying.

I enjoyed it. Sure Kirino acted like a bitch... A lot. But a some episodes later and we see why. There were some episodes that were annoying namely the one when they were talking about adapting Kirino's novel into an anime.

[Maou]

There was an Ore no Imouto discussion earlier, wasn't there? I'm wondering, how did anyone here who saw it respond to it? Because I found it extremely disappointing and annoying.

I felt that episode 8 was the only one that was hard to watch. The rest was great and the anime end was cute; plus we will get the true end with the special episodes later.

If you want an example of a shitty "perfect girl is closet otaku" show, look no further than Nogizaka Haruka no Himitsu.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Morita Kenichi

[Defeatist Elitist]

Yeah, I actually really liked Ore no Imouto, for all sorts of reasons.

[Florete]

I felt that episode 8 was the only one that was hard to watch. The rest was great and the anime end was cute; plus we will get the true end with the special episodes later.

The end being decent is what saved it from just being terrible to me.

Yeah, I actually really liked Ore no Imouto, for all sorts of reasons.

Like what?

As for me, I just could not stand Kirino. She has got to be one of the worst heroines in anime. Selfish, bratty, ungrateful, and she never changes. Kyousuke being her tool only made things worse.

[El Rey León]

Finally getting around to watching second season of Haruhi Suzumiya.

[Galenforcer]

Finally getting around to watching second season of Haruhi Suzumiya.

Be careful for Endless Eight!

[Defeatist Elitist]

Like what?

Charming, witty, and with some actual clever commentary. It's wierd to think of it like that, but it was one of the few anime that season whose dialogue was intelligent enough to really hold my interest, and I don't mean intelligent as in supremely academical, I mean intelligent as in there weren't any moments I wanted to scrape my face off.

As for me, I just could not stand Kirino. She has got to be one of the worst heroines in anime. Selfish, bratty, ungrateful, and she never changes. Kyousuke being her tool only made things worse.

Really? I quite liked her. As a character I mean. A lot of people are just like that in reality, and she actually DOES change. The second to last episode pretty much sets THAT fact in stone. Kyosuke isn't really her tool either. He makes it pretty obvious that he's doing it because he feels it's his duty as her brother, and probably because he actually cares about her.

I think you're assessment is actually really unfair and totally off the mark. Kirino is a good heroine at the very least because she doesn't fall too easily into the standard anime heroine stereotypes- even tsundere. She's an asshole at first, but some people are just like that. Especially middle school girls. Add to that that there's evidence of more going on behind the scenes, and her whole thanking him thing, and I definitely don't think you can call her selfish, bratty, ungrateful and unchanging.

I'd take Kirino any day over the overly cliched and staid girls, or mindless husks that sit around in other anime.

So I guess, at the risk of sounding like Richard E. Grant in the player, this is real.

Edited January 16, 2011 by ZXValaRevan

[Furby]

Be careful for Endless Eight!

Oh christ Endless Eight. Seriously, that's the biggest troll shit in existence.

I'm nearly finished with Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha: Striker S. I grabbed it because the TVtropes description of it caught my eye (While the title was the reason I always turned away), and I've gotta say I'm some what impressed with the series as a whole. It's definitely leans more on the whole "Power of friendship will get us through!" bullshit, but there's a lot in there that's kinda interesting (Though it really only picks up in the third season; The first two are fine, but it's a little more cutesy then I'm a fan of). It's got a decent system behind it's magic (It's not just there), a decent backstory, and the third season at least gets more mature, though it's never too much so.

[Florete]

Really? I quite liked her. As a character I mean. A lot of people are just like that in reality, and she actually DOES change. The second to last episode pretty much sets THAT fact in stone. Kyosuke isn't really her tool either. He makes it pretty obvious that he's doing it because he feels it's his duty as her brother, and probably because he actually cares about her.

I think you're assessment is actually really unfair and totally off the mark. Kirino is a good heroine at the very least because she doesn't fall too easily into the standard anime heroine stereotypes- even tsundere. She's an asshole at first, but some people are just like that. Especially middle school girls. Add to that that there's evidence of more going on behind the scenes, and her whole thanking him thing, and I definitely don't think you can call her selfish, bratty, ungrateful and unchanging.

I'd take Kirino any day over the overly cliched and staid girls, or mindless husks that sit around in other anime.

So I guess, at the risk of sounding like Richard E. Grant in the player, this is real.

How did I miss this?

Anyway, I guess you're right in a way in that she does kind of change, at least. But as a little sister with an older brother myself, Kyousuke is definitely a tool; I know for a fact that my brother would not have done some of those things for me. In fact, I wouldn't want him to. When you really look into, there's some Fridge Horror concerning Kyousuke's actions. Kirino displays a lot of selfishness over the course of the series; this is undeniable. Kyousuke's actions only serve to feed this. He helps her get what she wants, no matter how unrealistic the situation or how wrong it may really be, and sometimes she doesn't even know he helped her, she just suddenly gets it (like the anime stuff and later the special figurine). He's practically telling her that it's alright to continue being selfish and bratty because she can still get what she wants. A good brother would teach her a lesson, not spoil her to no end.

And if you think she isn't bratty, look again. I could explain it, but tehnominator from MAL said it best in her review, specifically:

Although in some ways, Ayase ends up turning out nicer than Kirino; she still makes an effort to call Kirino and wonder what her friend is doing. Whereas after all the fuss Kirino makes about saving their friendship, she hasn't a single other thought about Ayase. It's almost as if she's made sure she's secured the one "leak" in school and can go back to her animated incest porn. As the series wears on, you might actually have to pity Ayase. While she refuses to accept otaku culture and hobbies, she at least tries to make sense of it for Kirino's sake, and what does the little ingrate do? She gets offended and haughty when she can't explain why she needs about seven of the same figurines whose differences are so minuscule that an average person cannot notice them.

It's even more frustrating when every episode, nearly everyone goes out of their way to make Kirino happy. Kyousuke does it the most, then we have Kuroneko and Saori arranging get-togethers or hell, even going along to buy crap for her at the behest of Kyousuke. Even Ayase, who'd rather Kirino just be "normal", actually puts aside her disgust to try to get her friend a gift she knows she will love. And what does Kirino do for ANYONE? Please, anybody, name one truly selfless thing she does. Her brother has a sort-of-not-really-girlfriend girl friend, Manami. Kirino gets jealous, is rude to her, treats her poorly as a guest in their home, and then tries to sabotage her brother's relationship with this girl. What the hell is her problem? All Kirino needs to do is steal presents from under the tree and she's the goddamn Grinch. Wait, I shouldn't compare her to him. He actually grows a heart in the end. Kirino remains the same selfish brat from start to finish. It's also sad that if Kyousuke did half the things to her that she did to him, he'd be in juvie. But it's hilarious when she slaps him in the face and kicks his legs and punches him in the gut!

Don't get me wrong, I hate tsunderes. Easily my least favorite character type in anime. And that's why I hate Kirino so much, because that's pretty much what she is. At times it was actually speculated that she was so far into "tsun" she was no longer even tsundere anymore, she was just a damn bitch.

But as you say, is it real? Maybe. I'd be fine with her being a bitch if she was ever reprimanded for her actions, but as it is they just keep raising her pedestal higher and higher as though she's a work of perfection.

And one last thing:

A cute middle-schooler who is a closet otaku, successful doujin light novelist and potential anime creator who is ALSO (hope you weren't holding your breath) an intelligent honours student who is good at athletics and is extremely popular because she's (wait for it, wait for it) a fashion model for a prominent teen magazine?

And she still finds time to lay around on the couch with her phone talking to friends. I wish I didn't need sleep.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Rothene]

Just finished Katanagatari. Interesting series where almost all the ninjas were nearly.....pathetic or outright weird.

Also just finished watching Densetsu no Yuusha no Densetsu, one of the few high fantasy setting animes I've come across. The other would be Guin Saga.

Anyone here watched the extremely.......*interesting*......anime Sora no Otoshimono?

[Inui]

just Dragon Ball Kai and Bleach right now

need to get back into Gintama soon and maybe pick something else up, but I'm way too busy now :(

[Defeatist Elitist]

Anyway, I guess you're right in a way in that she does kind of change, at least. But as a little sister with an older brother myself, Kyousuke is definitely a tool; I know for a fact that my brother would not have done some of those things for me. In fact, I wouldn't want him to. When you really look into, there's some Fridge Horror concerning Kyousuke's actions. Kirino displays a lot of selfishness over the course of the series; this is undeniable. Kyousuke's actions only serve to feed this. He helps her get what she wants, no matter how unrealistic the situation or how wrong it may really be, and sometimes she doesn't even know he helped her, she just suddenly gets it (like the anime stuff and later the special figurine). He's practically telling her that it's alright to continue being selfish and bratty because she can still get what she wants. A good brother would teach her a lesson, not spoil her to no end.

I can understand your reasoning here, but I think there's more than one way to approach it. Certainly, if I were involved in this situation personally I wouldn't just feed her, but I must stress again that I think he basically feels its his job to look out for her, and he sees what he does as kind of doing that. Sort of like a man's honor/suffer in silence type of thing I guess.

I mean, the thing is, Kirino is only really portrayed as being a massive asshole towards Kyousuke and kind of towards Kuroneko and Saori. By all accounts she seems to treat her parents and friends fairly cordially, so in a way it's not even like he's feeding a problem, because she seems to be doing fairly well for herself. I totally agree that she is fairly selfish and whatnot, and that it is not necessarily a good thing, but I just don't think Kyosuke sees it exactly like that. Basically, she's doing way better in her life than he is in his.

And if you think she isn't bratty, look again.

Sorry, shouldn't have said it quite like that. My point was that she gets less bratty. All middle school girls (hell all middle school kids, and most people in general) are at least a bit bratty. No exceptions. But yeah, she's fairly bratty especially at first.

I could explain it, but tehnominator from MAL said it best in her review, specifically:

Although in some ways, Ayase ends up turning out nicer than Kirino; she still makes an effort to call Kirino and wonder what her friend is doing. Whereas after all the fuss Kirino makes about saving their friendship, she hasn't a single other thought about Ayase. It's almost as if she's made sure she's secured the one "leak" in school and can go back to her animated incest porn. As the series wears on, you might actually have to pity Ayase. While she refuses to accept otaku culture and hobbies, she at least tries to make sense of it for Kirino's sake, and what does the little ingrate do? She gets offended and haughty when she can't explain why she needs about seven of the same figurines whose differences are so minuscule that an average person cannot notice them.

Uh, maybe I'm just totally fucked, but I can't even understand this. First of all, Ayase is pretty much a moron. Regardless, Kirino isn't even mean to Ayase at all. She clearly values her friendship, and fuck why shouldn't she go back to her normal life after making up? As for the whole haughty thing, I really don't think it's that serious. I don't think she really held it against Ayase, and it didn't seem to phase Ayase that much either. Like, I honestly don't see the problem. I definitely can't pity Ayase, though probably for different reasons.

It's even more frustrating when every episode, nearly everyone goes out of their way to make Kirino happy. Kyousuke does it the most, then we have Kuroneko and Saori arranging get-togethers or hell, even going along to buy crap for her at the behest of Kyousuke. Even Ayase, who'd rather Kirino just be "normal", actually puts aside her disgust to try to get her friend a gift she knows she will love. And what does Kirino do for ANYONE? Please, anybody, name one truly selfless thing she does. Her brother has a sort-of-not-really-girlfriend girl friend, Manami. Kirino gets jealous, is rude to her, treats her poorly as a guest in their home, and then tries to sabotage her brother's relationship with this girl. What the hell is her problem? All Kirino needs to do is steal presents from under the tree and she's the goddamn Grinch. Wait, I shouldn't compare her to him. He actually grows a heart in the end. Kirino remains the same selfish brat from start to finish. It's also sad that if Kyousuke did half the things to her that she did to him, he'd be in juvie. But it's hilarious when she slaps him in the face and kicks his legs and punches him in the gut!

Why has everybody missed the second to last episode where she basically apologizes and repents for this stuff? I mean, I thought it was somewhat obvious that Kirino (like a lot of people actually), has a hard time thanking people, and has a sort of warped pride that she doesn't want to scuff. But in the end she DOES change, she does do all that stuff. And also, Kirino could be doing all sorts of nice things for other people, but the show mostly focuses on one specific aspect of her life, and one that she is sort of ashamed of. It's clear that her parents are very proud of her, and her friends seem to like her a lot. Also also, Kyosuke actually DOES get upset and confront Kirino about the Manami thing (you know, in that episode everybody else just completely ignores), and some other stuff, presumably because he considers her going out of her way to disrupt HIS life for no reason to be crossing the line. And it's not like EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is going out of the way to make her happy, it's her FRIENDS and her BROTHER.

Don't get me wrong, I hate tsunderes. Easily my least favorite character type in anime. And that's why I hate Kirino so much, because that's pretty much what she is. At times it was actually speculated that she was so far into "tsun" she was no longer even tsundere anymore, she was just a damn bitch.

I'm not even arguing that she's not a bitch, especially near the start. I wouldn't like her as a person. But as a character I at least find her portrayal interesting.

Seriously though, I have seen plenty of practically Kirino's offline.

But as you say, is it real? Maybe. I'd be fine with her being a bitch if she was ever reprimanded for her actions, but as it is they just keep raising her pedestal higher and higher as though she's a work of perfection.

And one last thing:

A cute middle-schooler who is a closet otaku, successful doujin light novelist and potential anime creator who is ALSO (hope you weren't holding your breath) an intelligent honours student who is good at athletics and is extremely popular because she's (wait for it, wait for it) a fashion model for a prominent teen magazine?

And she still finds time to lay around on the couch with her phone talking to friends. I wish I didn't need sleep.

Uh, let me try to put it nicely. That's not TOO unreasonable. Being a cute middle school girl who is good at athletics and has good grades, and is popular is pretty fucking common. Oh, and btw, being a bratty bitch is also commong among those people. Being cute and being athletic often help each other out, and getting good grades in middle school is easy as fuck if you have the right motivation, you don't need intelligence (and I don't think Kirino is intelligent). This shit will lead to being popular. That's just how stuff happens. I'm sure that again, it's not absurdly difficult to become a model, considering that she is cute and athletic, it probably again is a matter of motivation.

The doujin light novelist thing is kind of a weak point, but honestly her novel was shit and people like that so hey! I will totally concede that that was a sort of silly thing, but more just for it's complete, what the fuck, out of the blue irrelevence. And closet otaku? Well, everyone has their secrets. "There's no such thing as a normal person."

As for the last remark, as someone who typically does extremely well in school and has worked since 14, I can confidently say that I have shit tons of free time. Fuck, my younger sister plays all manner of sports, multiple instruments, does at least as well as me in school, and also works, and she still has a bunch of free time. She also sleeps like 10 hours a day.

Edited February 1, 2011 by ZXValaRevan

[Florete]

Let me start by saying I knwo I'm not good at these kinds of arguments, so instead of trying too hard and sounding stupid I'll only respond to a few things.

Uh, maybe I'm just totally fucked, but I can't even understand this. First of all, Ayase is pretty much a moron. Regardless, Kirino isn't even mean to Ayase at all. She clearly values her friendship, and fuck why shouldn't she go back to her normal life after making up? As for the whole haughty thing, I really don't think it's that serious. I don't think she really held it against Ayase, and it didn't seem to phase Ayase that much either. Like, I honestly don't see the problem. I definitely can't pity Ayase, though probably for different reasons.

How is Ayase a moron? Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, the only reason the friendship still exists at all is because she was barely able to get Ayase to accept her hobby, at least somewhat. Now when Ayase makes an effort to further understand Kirino's hobby, Kirino just gets offended and haughty. If I were Ayase, I'd have slapped Kirino for that. It's like Ayase is doing Kirino a favor but Kirino complains (complains, not explains) that she isn't doing it quite right despite the fact that Ayase has no obligation to do it in the first place.

Why has everybody missed the second to last episode where she basically apologizes and repents for this stuff?

I was watching very closely for this stuff in these episodes because I wanted them to turn things around and I am quite certain she never apologizes, only thanks him. That is an improvement, yes, but it's not quite what I was looking for.

And it's not like EVERYONE IN THE WORLD is going out of the way to make her happy, it's her FRIENDS and her BROTHER.

Because that's needed for my point to have meaning? The show focuses quite a lot on getting Kirino what she wants and never punishing her behavior. That is my problem.

Uh, let me try to put it nicely. That's not TOO unreasonable. Being a cute middle school girl who is good at athletics and has good grades, and is popular is pretty fucking common. Oh, and btw, being a bratty bitch is also commong among those people. Being cute and being athletic often help each other out, and getting good grades in middle school is easy as fuck if you have the right motivation, you don't need intelligence (and I don't think Kirino is intelligent). This shit will lead to being popular. That's just how stuff happens. I'm sure that again, it's not absurdly difficult to become a model, considering that she is cute and athletic, it probably again is a matter of motivation.

The doujin light novelist thing is kind of a weak point, but honestly her novel was shit and people like that so hey! I will totally concede that that was a sort of silly thing, but more just for it's complete, what the fuck, out of the blue irrelevence. And closet otaku? Well, everyone has their secrets. "There's no such thing as a normal person."

As for the last remark, as someone who typically does extremely well in school and has worked since 14, I can confidently say that I have shit tons of free time. Fuck, my younger sister plays all manner of sports, multiple instruments, does at least as well as me in school, and also works, and she still has a bunch of free time. She also sleeps like 10 hours a day.

Some of it I could buy, but all of it on top of each other? Let's list it out:

-Athletic

-Honors student

-Fashion model

-Light novelist (what does it matter if it's shit? She still writes)

-Closet Otaku (and look at that closet!)

-Talks to and hangs out with friends often.

-Miscellaneous activities like anime conventions (like the one we saw in episode 10).

I didn't put popular on there because that isn't an "activity" so-to-speak and doesn't take time. But all those other things? Seriously? I could totally buy the first three together, and maybe the second to last with it depending on how often. Throw any more on there and you're asking for trouble, add more than that and I have a hard time taking it seriously. The thing is just that all these things do take time; any one of them might not take a whole lot depending on the person, but when you keep stacking more together the schedule gets quite full.

[Defeatist Elitist]

How is Ayase a moron? Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, the only reason the friendship still exists at all is because she was barely able to get Ayase to accept her hobby, at least somewhat. Now when Ayase makes an effort to further understand Kirino's hobby, Kirino just gets offended and haughty. If I were Ayase, I'd have slapped Kirino for that. It's like Ayase is doing Kirino a favor but Kirino complains (complains, not explains) that she isn't doing it quite right despite the fact that Ayase has no obligation to do it in the first place.

Ayase's pretty much a moron for even taking that position in the first place, hahaha. It was more of an offhand comment. Anyway, I honestly don't think Kirino's offense is a big deal, because I don't think she really cares that much that Ayase doesn't understand. I dunno, it just seems like a sort of friend dynamic. Either way, I basically have conceded that Kirino is a bitch hahaha, that's not really my point.

I was watching very closely for this stuff in these episodes because I wanted them to turn things around and I am quite certain she never apologizes, only thanks him. That is an improvement, yes, but it's not quite what I was looking for.

No, she literally flat out apologizes to him. Do you like, want me to upload a screencap? THEN, she thanks him for everything. In fact, the apology was literally the entire reason for the party.

Are you sure you don't have some sort of subconscious hate going on?

Because that's needed for my point to have meaning? The show focuses quite a lot on getting Kirino what she wants and never punishing her behavior. That is my problem.

Except she ultimately is reprimanded, and she does realize to some degree what she has done wrong. What I'm saying is that her friends and brother are the people most likely to try to help her out, perhaps without punishing her, ESPECIALLY in a lot of her less utterly selfish requests. I mean, it's not like everything in the show is her demanding or doing something completely ridiculous.

Some of it I could buy, but all of it on top of each other? Let's list it out:

-Athletic

-Honors student

-Fashion model

-Light novelist (what does it matter if it's shit? She still writes)

-Closet Otaku (and look at that closet!)

-Talks to and hangs out with friends often.

-Miscellaneous activities like anime conventions (like the one we saw in episode 10).

I didn't put popular on there because that isn't an "activity" so-to-speak and doesn't take time. But all those other things? Seriously? I could totally buy the first three together, and maybe the second to last with it depending on how often. Throw any more on there and you're asking for trouble, add more than that and I have a hard time taking it seriously. The thing is just that all these things do take time; any one of them might not take a whole lot depending on the person, but when you keep stacking more together the schedule gets quite full.

I don't know quite how to say it, but that isn't really that much of a full schedule. Seriously. I mean, I could pull that, half the kids I know could probably pull it if they tried. The only reason I couldn't is because I'm not a closet otaku, and I'm not a cute girl so I am unlikely to become a fashion model. The only thing I find odd about her novelist thing is that she becomes popular, not the actual writing it. Like, seriously, I do something that could be an equivalent of all the things there and I STILL have plenty of free time.

But seriously, rewatch episode 11. It's like you (and the person you quoted) either didn't watch it, or didn't pay attention to it. It even explains a lot of Kyousuke's motivations.

Edited February 1, 2011 by ZXValaRevan

[Maou]

Not trying to get in the middle of the argument, but I had Ayase pinned as a moron the moment she mentioned those news reports about otakus. She exposed herself as an extremely ignorant person and easily became the most unlikable character in the show IMO.

[Florete]

Ayase's pretty much a moron for even taking that position in the first place, hahaha. It was more of an offhand comment. Anyway, I honestly don't think Kirino's offense is a big deal, because I don't think she really cares that much that Ayase doesn't understand. I dunno, it just seems like a sort of friend dynamic. Either way, I basically have conceded that Kirino is a bitch hahaha, that's not really my point.

Well, as I said, whether or not she's a moron is not the point. She has her stance regardless, and it is a fairly common stance for non-otaku to have. Kirino's treatment of her in her time of trying to broaden her mind on the subject is completely unjustified in my eyes.

No, she literally flat out apologizes to him. Do you like, want me to upload a screencap? THEN, she thanks him for everything. In fact, the apology was literally the entire reason for the party.

I would like that, actually. Maybe it was a case of different subgroups or something. Do you know who's you watched? I watched Mazui's.

Are you sure you don't have some sort of subconscious hate going on?

No, actually. But I do know that I was going into later episodes, and especially the scene in question, thinking "Okay, she's going to apologize now, right?"

EDIT: It also doesn't help that, aside from the absolute bitchiness, I am quite similar to Kirino. I'm a somewhat closet otaku (in real life) with an interest in fictional incest and an older brother who thinks it's pretty weird, as well as being a writer. Only my brother wouldn't go nearly as far as Kyousuke, and I'm not surprised.

Except she ultimately is reprimanded, and she does realize to some degree what she has done wrong. What I'm saying is that her friends and brother are the people most likely to try to help her out, perhaps without punishing her, ESPECIALLY in a lot of her less utterly selfish requests. I mean, it's not like everything in the show is her demanding or doing something completely ridiculous.

When is she reprimanded? I never caught that.

I don't know quite how to say it, but that isn't really that much of a full schedule. Seriously. I mean, I could pull that, half the kids I know could probably pull it if they tried. The only reason I couldn't is because I'm not a closet otaku, and I'm not a cute girl so I am unlikely to become a fashion model. The only thing I find odd about her novelist thing is that she becomes popular, not the actual writing it. Like, seriously, I do something that could be an equivalent of all the things there and I STILL have plenty of free time.

Okay, I'm lazy, but I really don't think I could handle all that in the amounts she does (because she plays a lot of games and tends to know a lot about them) and still get 7 hours of sleep with school 5 days a week and homework and a job.

But seriously, rewatch episode 11. It's like you (and the person you quoted) either didn't watch it, or didn't pay attention to it. It even explains a lot of Kyousuke's motivations.

I watched it, trust me. In fact, that and episode 12 being about halfway to what I wanted are what allowed me to score the show 5/10 instead of something like 2-3.

Kyousuke's motivations don't really help, in my opinion, because the implications of his actions don't change. And it's not as though his explanation in episode 11 was some kind of revelation, either. Sure, you got a bit more inside detail on how he felt the whole way, but it's not like we couldn't guess that the whole time.

Edited February 1, 2011 by Red Fox of Fire

[Defeatist Elitist]

Not trying to get in the middle of the argument, but I had Ayase pinned as a moron the moment she mentioned those news reports about otakus. She exposed herself as an extremely ignorant person and easily became the most unlikable character in the show IMO.

Yeah, pretty much.

Well, as I said, whether or not she's a moron is not the point. She has her stance regardless, and it is a fairly common stance for non-otaku to have. Kirino's treatment of her in her time of trying to broaden her mind on the subject is completely unjustified in my eyes.

I just don't see the treatment as being that bad. It's literally just a small reaction to one thing basically.

I would like that, actually. Maybe it was a case of different subgroups or something. Do you know who's you watched? I watched Mazui's.

I watch Mazui, and I have the episode on my computer. She even says gomen nasai, there pretty much is no room for subbing differences anyway. But here:

No, actually. But I do know that I was going into later episodes, and especially the scene in question, thinking "Okay, she's going to apologize now, right?"

And she did.

When is she reprimanded? I never caught that.

That episode. Like, immediately prior to the apology.

Okay, I'm lazy, but I really don't think I could handle all that in the amounts she does (because she plays a lot of games and tends to know a lot about them) and still get 7 hours of sleep with school 5 days a week and homework and a job.

I think you're overestimating it. This is middle school, the homework you have is pretty pathetic anyways. Her volume of game playing would be beyond someone like me, but that's because I just am not good at getting lots of things done. It really isn't that unreasonable.

I watched it, trust me. In fact, that and episode 12 being about halfway to what I wanted are what allowed me to score the show 5/10 instead of something like 2-3.

Yeah...

Kyousuke's motivations don't really help, in my opinion, because the implications of his actions don't change. And it's not as though his explanation in episode 11 was some kind of revelation, either. Sure, you got a bit more inside detail on how he felt the whole way, but it's not like we couldn't guess that the whole time.

Uh, they help because we get to understand why he did things.

I kind of feel like you're arguing "this is a show with bad people therefore the show is bad" in some of these circumstances. I fully concede that Kirino is often a selfish bitch, and hell, even that Kyousuke is a bit of a tool sometimes, but that doesn't actually affect whether the show is good or not.

The reason I ask if you've seen episode 11 so much is that a huge amount of what you and that reviewer you quoted claim is completely and utterly invalidated by it. Like, after seeing the episode I don't even understand how you could maintain some of those opinions.

Edited February 2, 2011 by ZXValaRevan

[Florete]

I just don't see the treatment as being that bad. It's literally just a small reaction to one thing basically.

I guess this is a difference of perspectives. From Kirino's point of view I can understand getting a little annoyed, but I'd also know not to take it out on my supposed friend.

I watch Mazui, and I have the episode on my computer. She even says gomen nasai, there pretty much is no room for subbing differences anyway. But here:

You'd actually be surprised how often seemingly common phrases like gomen nasai are not always translated the same, but okay. I wish I hadn't deleted it myself. I could swear I hadn't missed anything and now I want to double-check and see it in context.

That episode. Like, immediately prior to the apology.

Okay, what I should have asked is "How?"

I think you're overestimating it. This is middle school, the homework you have is pretty pathetic anyways. Her volume of game playing would be beyond someone like me, but that's because I just am not good at getting lots of things done. It really isn't that unreasonable.

My middle school homework may have been "pathetic," but it sure was time-consuming, and even then I wasn't an honors student most of the time. And I was in American middle school where it's known to be more lax. Japanese middle school is probably at least slightly worse.

Uh, they help because we get to understand why he did things.

And I'm saying we (or at least I) already understood these things for the most part. Paraphrasing here, but his reason was "She's my little sister and I'm doing what i can for her." Was this a surprise to you? Because I felt I already knew that much.

I kind of feel like you're arguing "this is a show with bad people therefore the show is bad" in some of these circumstances. I fully concede that Kirino is often a selfish bitch, and hell, even that Kyousuke is a bit of a tool sometimes, but that doesn't actually affect whether the show is good or not.

What? Like a lot of anime these days, this is largely a character-based show. How does bad characters not reflect on the quality of the show?

The reason I ask if you've seen episode 11 so much is that a huge amount of what you and that reviewer you quoted claim is completely and utterly invalidated by it. Like, after seeing the episode I don't even understand how you could maintain some of those opinions.

I don't remember seeing it that way, but I guess I need to watch it again. I'm not trying to claim that I'm definitely right, but I was getting worried at around episode 7 and the optimist in me was constantly looking for improvements to the show, so it's hard to think I may have missed any especially drastic scenes without checking again.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I guess this is a difference of perspectives. From Kirino's point of view I can understand getting a little annoyed, but I'd also know not to take it out on my supposed friend.

What I mean is that what she did is not a major problem. Uh, let me put it like this. If I was a tempermental middle school girl, and my friend was too, I suspect that would be a typical reaction. Sometimes people are like that. It wasn't like a major falling out or anything.

You'd actually be surprised how often seemingly common phrases like gomen nasai are not always translated the same, but okay. I wish I hadn't deleted it myself. I could swear I hadn't missed anything and now I want to double-check and see it in context.

Maybe I will explain the context. She's getting sort of emotional and says it in a fairly heartfelt tone, and then continues through probably the most sentimental scene in the entire series. So yeah. It was DEFINITELY an apology in context.

Okay, what I should have asked is "How?"

Uh, in pretty much the only plausible way. Kyousuke confronts her and reprimand her about it, and explains how it hurt him.

My middle school homework may have been "pathetic," but it sure was time-consuming, and even then I wasn't an honors student most of the time. And I was in American middle school where it's known to be more lax. Japanese middle school is probably at least slightly worse.

I am an honors student (well we don't really do that in Canada) and I don't know if I ever devoted much more than an hour or two outside of school a week to homework in middle school (I actually didn't go to middle school, we had middle school in our high school but same thing), usually less. I doubt Japanese middle school is that much worse. You just have to find what works for you and do it, pretty much.

And I'm saying we (or at least I) already understood these things for the most part. Paraphrasing here, but his reason was "She's my little sister and I'm doing what i can for her." Was this a surprise to you? Because I felt I already knew that much.

I knew most of it too, but that was mostly inferred. I'm saying that because he flat out states it and goes into greater depth (especially about the not needing or even necessarily wanting thanks or praise thing) makes his actions more concretely verifiable.

What? Like a lot of anime these days, this is largely a character-based show. How does bad characters not reflect on the quality of the show?

Bad people, not bad characters. I think the characters are strong and at least somewhat interesting. Real. I'm saying, your argument seems to be, in some part "Kirino is a terrible person therefore the show is bad".

I don't remember seeing it that way, but I guess I need to watch it again. I'm not trying to claim that I'm definitely right, but I was getting worried at around episode 7 and the optimist in me was constantly looking for improvements to the show, so it's hard to think I may have missed any especially drastic scenes without checking again.

Well, you did. Don't know how else to say it, hahaha.

[Florete]

I knew most of it too, but that was mostly inferred. I'm saying that because he flat out states it and goes into greater depth (especially about the not needing or even necessarily wanting thanks or praise thing) makes his actions more concretely verifiable.

Okay, but how does this change a thing? As I stated, I have a problem here because the implications of his actions don't change. He still did what he did, and that is ultimately the problem I have.

Bad people, not bad characters. I think the characters are strong and at least somewhat interesting. Real. I'm saying, your argument seems to be, in some part "Kirino is a terrible person therefore the show is bad".

My argument should be more like "Kirino is a terrible person presented by the show as a great person, therefore the show is bad." Like I said before, if the show hadn't worshiped Kirino the way it did, it would be much more tolerable for me.

[TheEnd]

My argument should be more like "Kirino is a terrible person presented by the show as a great person, therefore the show is bad." Like I said before, if the show hadn't worshiped Kirino the way it did, it would be much more tolerable for me.

But even Kyousuke and Kuroneko think she's a bitch. And they, the closest people to her, cheer when things don't go her way.

How is she being presented as a great person.

[Florete]

But even Kyousuke and Kuroneko think she's a bitch. And they, the closest people to her, cheer when things don't go her way.

How is she being presented as a great person.

I do not know what you're talking about. Kyousuke is the reason things often go her way. Kuroneko is the best character in show, but unfortunately she did not get enough screen time. And yet, even she helped Kirino get what she wanted in episode 8 with the anime thing.

She is being presented as a great person in the sense that the creators obviously want everyone to love her and so they spoil her and make her moe fanbait without disgracing her great name.

[TheEnd]

I do not know what you're talking about. Kyousuke is the reason things often go her way. Kuroneko is the best character in show, but unfortunately she did not get enough screen time. And yet, even she helped Kirino get what she wanted in episode 8 with the anime thing.

They helped her, yes. But not before admitting that seeing her defeated was awesome. Now, as much as you might not like that (values dissonance, so I don't blame you here), Kyousuke did that out of duty. And Kuroneko, despite everything, is still her friend and was probably just enjoying the whole situation.

She is being presented as a great person in the sense that the creators obviously want everyone to love her and so they spoil her

I'd say it's actually the opposite. Kirino is being an unlikeable bitch in almost 100% of her screentime, with her qualities being mostly informed abilities mentioned here and there. The "awesome Kirino" facade is barely shown to us, viewers; for each second of photo shooting, we get ten minutes of Kyousuke abuse.

and make her moe fanbait without disgracing her great name.

I don't even know what you mean here.

[Florete]

They helped her, yes. But not before admitting that seeing her defeated was awesome. Now, as much as you might not like that (values dissonance, so I don't blame you here), Kyousuke did that out of duty. And Kuroneko, despite everything, is still her friend and was probably just enjoying the whole situation.

And my problem remains; their help is not really "help."

we get ten minutes of Kyousuke abuse.

You think that's not "Awesome Kirino" to the fans they are so obviously trying to appeal to (the tsundere fans)?

I don't even know what you mean here.

They basically try to make a Mary Sue out of her for the fanbase. Everyone watching should be loving her.