tier list

[Progenitus]

And I find it humorous that staves is somehow justification for Soren to be an entire tier above Tanith, but not justification for Bastian to be in the same tier as Stefan. How about you make up your mind, since you're the one trying to construct a consistent tier list?

The difference is that Soren and Tanith have similar stats outside of flying vs staves, while the same isn't the case for Stefan and Bastian (Stefan has way more offense).

I'm still not convinced that Tanith has better stats tahn Soren (just like how you can fly through hoops to get Tanith's stats up, you can do the same for Soren), but after thinking about it, I think Soren's performance from 3-7 to 3-10, when forged hand axe/javelin show up to help Boyd/Neph (who I consider to be around the same as Soren from 3-P to 3-5, largely because Soren 1-2 range better tahn them), as well as hawks joining up, is enough to make Tanith better.

However, I don't think Soren should drop. And if Tanith rises, then Marcia should, since Marcia is better than her. Perhaps something like... Marcia > Tanith > Soren, then?

And Bastian is useful for a quick completion of 4-5. Tibarn can reach Izuka on turn 1, but laguz block Izuka on every side, so Bastian can help kill one. I'm not sure exactly how Izuka's AI works, I've never tested, but he has a Rewarp staff, so having Tibarn canto next to him might just provoke him to teleport, extending the chapter.

okay.

50 crit with VK before enemy luck isn't that impressive when Generals have like 25 luck and Stefan isn't guaranteed to keep the VK. Bastian borderline 1-rounding with Rexcalibur and having a ~40% chance to instantly heal himself is a bit more useful, I think.

Okay then, Stefan uses a forged silver sword which has 15 crit instead of 5.

Also, Bastian having 40% chance to heal himself would put him out of resolve range, which knocks his offense back down to wtfsuck. I guess resolve makes his durability better, but it does the same for Stefan, moreso actually since facing liek 0-20 displayed hit vs generals in resolve range is better than 40% chance to heal + facing like 30-50 displayed hit vs generals. Also, Bastian only borderline 1RKOs the weakest generals with a 15 use weapon, so it's not going to last long.

Aran tied with Nolan? What have you been smoking, Smash? Sothe doesn't appear until halfway through 1-2, and even then since a third of your characters are OHKOed and another third are 2HKOed, Nolan is still necessary to keep everyone alive. Aran doesn't join until halfway through 1-3, faces crit from many enemies and gets 2-rounded by everything in 1-4, while Nolan is getting 4-rounded by Cats and 3-rounded by Tigers, and has Steel Axe for better attack and Hand Axe for better 2-range. 1-5, Nolan wins again in almost every area since his HP, luck and support lead is enough to cancel out Aran's one or two extra points of defense.

If you think that you Aran is 'tied' with Nolan in early Part 1, you are 100% wrong.

Aran in 1-3 is recruited on liek turn 3 or something, and you only kill off like 5 enemies during that time period. The chapter isn't 5 turns long.

lol, 1-4 I'm not touching with a 10 foot pole. I'll just say that you're neglecting Aran being able to level up during 1-3 and even during 1-4.

In 1-5, Aran has more than 1-2 extra points of def, idk wtf you're talking about. He already wins def by 2 at base level (may be 1 in 1-3, but since Nolan only has 35 def growth and levels up like a snail in 1-1 and 1-2 due to enemy levels being so low, he may still be at 9) and has double nolan's def growth and levels slightly faster. Nolan will have a B support at best which gives +1 def, and Aran has a C support which also gives +1 def. At best the HP cancels out the def lead, which leaves lck (Aran isn't critted by anything other than myrms, who also has a crit rate on Nolan) and avoid. but oh wait, you said that avoid in part 1 sucks.

Nolan may be better, but if you don't think Aran is even comparable to Nolan, you are 100% wrong.

Fair enough, although Sothe can use the Beast Killer if necessary for 20 extra crit, in which case they're almost tied for crit. You get two Beast Killers, and I know I never run out of them, so it's fine to use them on beorc.

And has like 15 less hit tahn with the forged knife I gave him.

I'm not sure I care all that much about 1-2 range in this case. Volug doesn't need to avoid counters that often, so it's not that important to him. And Volug's 9 move is very significant. In the 1-6 and 1-8 thickets, Zihark only has 3 move, and Volug takes less penalty from ledges.

The 1-2 range isn't so much for avoiding counters (though that helps) rather that Zihark can counter 1-2 range enemies.

The number does rise. It's three in 1-6, five in 1-7, six in 1-8, and seven in 1-E.

how do Muarim/Vika beat Zihark? Again, they have transformation issues when you have a lack of grasses, and any grasses you do get you may want to save as many uses as possible for Volug in part 3. Vika transformed may nto even beat Zihark either, because she has way less att (Muarim transformed rapes face, I'll give you that).

Remember, your statement said that these are units that *beat* Zihark. Beat being the keyword.

Again, number of units that beat him is irrelevant in 1-8. Everyone is spread out over the map, so even the worst unit in the map (whoever is the 4th unit you drag along in your 4 open deployment spots) has positive utility, unless that unit is like meg or something. It's not until 1-E that it really matters, and even then, it's only Nailah and BK beating him. Volug may not even win, because he might have actual hit issues (like 140 hit vs enemies with 55+ avoid) and if he didn't get +spd he has some serious issues doubling.

I still don't see how this is relevant anyway. Zihark loses to Nailah? Nolan does too, except by even more. Remember, if you want to get to 3-6 and 3-13 where Nolan wins, you have to stick Nolan in 1-6, 1-7, etc., where using Zihark instead would speed us up.

By Part 3, Nolan is comparable to Zihark, if not outright winning.

Nolan only wins 3-6 and 3-13, while Zihark wins the other chapters because the enemies don't have a billion hit so his avoid is fine, and his ability to double more reliably wins out.

I'll admit that 3-6 and 3-13 carry more weight than any individual chapter they both exist in, but when you combine 3-12 with the other part 4 chapters, Zihark can edge him out.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Narga_Rocks]

The difference is that Soren and Tanith have similar stats outside of flying vs staves, while the same isn't the case for Stefan and Bastian (Stefan has way more offense).

I'm still not convinced that Tanith has better stats tahn Soren (just like how you can fly through hoops to get Tanith's stats up, you can do the same for Soren), but after thinking about it, I think Soren's performance from 3-7 to 3-10, when forged hand axe/javelin show up to help Boyd/Neph (who I consider to be around the same as Soren from 3-P to 3-5, largely because Soren 1-2 range better tahn them), as well as hawks joining up, is enough to make Tanith better.

However, I don't think Soren should drop. And if Tanith rises, then Marcia should, since Marcia is better than her. Perhaps something like... Marcia > Tanith > Soren, then?

Huh? I thought Anouleth was just trying to get Tanith into the same tier as Soren and closer. You could probably make Soren > Marcia > Tanith > Volke.

If you think Tanith may have a right to be above him, though, then certainly your proposal works.

Also, Soren most certainly should not drop. I agree with you there. Aside from Calill, Marcia, and Tanith, there aren't actually any units beneath him that I currently think could possibly go above him. Also, given the way your list works, I'm sure Calill doesn't have a prayer. It's also possible that given your rules maybe she wouldn't belong above him anyway.

[Anouleth]

The difference is that Soren and Tanith have similar stats outside of flying vs staves, while the same isn't the case for Stefan and Bastian (Stefan has way more offense).

Tanith is almost ORKOing in 4-P, and has Stun so that even the stronger Paladins and General that she won't 2HKO will die half the time. She also has better durability. Bastian is 2HKOing in 4-E-1, Stefan 3HKOes and Astras/crits half the time, except that Bastian has arguably better durability since he doesn't take counters and shrugs off magic and can proc Flare, and that while Bastian has staves, Stefan has only his superior offense. Tanith has superior offense, superior durability, AND flying, and she's not wasting our time in early Part 3 when Soren is one of our worst units.

(And 4-E-1 is probably one of Bastian's worst chapters versus Stefan, alongside 4-E-5. 4-E-3 he's arguably winning since Stefan's durability is ass while Bastian can at least take hits from the Whites (and he has siege tomes). 4-E-4 he can also win, because Stefan is getting 3/4HKOed by Spirits, 5/6HKOed if he's on Cover. Bastian is virtually indestructible on this map, since even with the Spirits doubling him they still deal about 4 damage. So even on Bastian's worst chapter, he's not that awful compared to Stefan.)

I'm still not convinced that Tanith has better stats tahn Soren (just like how you can fly through hoops to get Tanith's stats up, you can do the same for Soren), but after thinking about it, I think Soren's performance from 3-7 to 3-10, when forged hand axe/javelin show up to help Boyd/Neph (who I consider to be around the same as Soren from 3-P to 3-5, largely because Soren 1-2 range better tahn them), as well as hawks joining up, is enough to make Tanith better.

BEXP + a Secret Book is pretty good for Tanith's stats, and if you got the 2-2 Secret Book, there's really very little else you can do with it. I only brought it up because you mentioned the possibility of BEXPing Soren in tier 2. But even with BEXP, he still has the speed cap to worry about, since it means he goes into Part 4 with 25AS. With some luck, Tanith could have 27 or even 28 AS after BEXP and promotion. I don't think 28 is very likely, since I think BEXP prioritises DEF over SPD (if the growths are equal), but Tanith at least has that potential to be blessed, while Soren is doomed by his speed cap.

However, I don't think Soren should drop. And if Tanith rises, then Marcia should, since Marcia is better than her. Perhaps something like... Marcia > Tanith > Soren, then?

Marcia is too low on this list as well, in my opinion, so her going up would be cool.

Okay then, Stefan uses a forged silver sword which has 15 crit instead of 5.

You'd need a +mt coin on it. Forged silver is 17mt, so Stefan would have 44ATK. Generals have 30-32DEF and 50-52HP, so against the manlier Generals, Stefan won't kill with a crit.

Also, Bastian having 40% chance to heal himself would put him out of resolve range, which knocks his offense back down to wtfsuck. I guess resolve makes his durability better, but it does the same for Stefan, moreso actually since facing liek 0-20 displayed hit vs generals in resolve range is better than 40% chance to heal + facing like 30-50 displayed hit vs generals. Also, Bastian only borderline 1RKOs the weakest generals with a 15 use weapon, so it's not going to last long.

Any leftover Spirit Dusts can easily be passed Bastian's way, but expecting any of them even to exist is a bit iffy. Oh well, he still 1RKOes and heals on a Flare proc, which is 64% of the time. And Rexcalibur durability is an issue... Well, he can switch to something else against Generals he 3HKOes or when Resolve is active.

Aran in 1-3 is recruited on liek turn 3 or something, and you only kill off like 5 enemies during that time period. The chapter isn't 5 turns long.

Hmm, I thought he joined a little bit later. I guess I was wrong.

lol, 1-4 I'm not touching with a 10 foot pole. I'll just say that you're neglecting Aran being able to level up during 1-3 and even during 1-4.

I don't know if Aran would level up in 1-3. I'll certainly give that if he doesn't, you can finish off the level with BEXP, since STR/SKL/DEF is still a useful level-up. And maybe I'm underestimating the rate that laguz give experience. Still, Nolan's level lead isn't that great so they'll be gaining exp fairly similiarly.

In 1-5, Aran has more than 1-2 extra points of def, idk wtf you're talking about. He already wins def by 2 at base level (may be 1 in 1-3, but since Nolan only has 35 def growth and levels up like a snail in 1-1 and 1-2 due to enemy levels being so low, he may still be at 9) and has double nolan's def growth and levels slightly faster. Nolan will have a B support at best which gives +1 def, and Aran has a C support which also gives +1 def. At best the HP cancels out the def lead, which leaves lck (Aran isn't critted by anything other than myrms, who also has a crit rate on Nolan) and avoid. but oh wait, you said that avoid in part 1 sucks.

Nolan has 10 DEF at level 12, Aran has 13 DEF at level 10. Maybe more if he was BEXPed up a level. I don't know if they might be at higher levels, maybe that's a bit pessimistic. Nolan has +1def from supports guaranteed, and Aran will only have Laura available as a support, but he can get her. Maybe 1-2 was exaggerating, but Nolan still has a HP lead. Oh, and Aran faces about 5 crit from Myrmidons and some double him if he's still on 11AS, Nolan faces 3 crit.

Nolan may be better, but if you don't think Aran is even comparable to Nolan, you are 100% wrong.

You said they were about tied. Aran might have an extremely minor durability advantage against certain enemies in 1-5, but Nolan still wins every other chapter and wins in every other area in 1-5.

how do Muarim/Vika beat Zihark? Again, they have transformation issues when you have a lack of grasses, and any grasses you do get you may want to save as many uses as possible for Volug in part 3. Vika transformed may nto even beat Zihark either, because she has way less att (Muarim transformed rapes face, I'll give you that).

Even untransformed, Muarim has about 28 attack (lol, higher than wildshifted Volug and shifted Vika) and 58HP/15DEF is ridiculous even if lots of enemies double him.

Although admittedly, I forgot how bad Vika sucks.

Remember, your statement said that these are units that *beat* Zihark. Beat being the keyword.

Again, number of units that beat him is irrelevant in 1-8. Everyone is spread out over the map, so even the worst unit in the map (whoever is the 4th unit you drag along in your 4 open deployment spots) has positive utility, unless that unit is like meg or something. It's not until 1-E that it really matters, and even then, it's only Nailah and BK beating him. Volug may not even win, because he might have actual hit issues (like 140 hit vs enemies with 55+ avoid) and if he didn't get +spd he has some serious issues doubling.

I usually feed Volug one or two levels of BEXP for more speed, but that's just me. And 85 hit is fine.

I still don't see how this is relevant anyway. Zihark loses to Nailah? Nolan does too, except by even more. Remember, if you want to get to 3-6 and 3-13 where Nolan wins, you have to stick Nolan in 1-6, 1-7, etc., where using Zihark instead would speed us up.

Well, generally it would be best to use both. Zihark can't emulate Nolan's Hammer use or established supports or great Part 3.

Nolan only wins 3-6 and 3-13, while Zihark wins the other chapters because the enemies don't have a billion hit so his avoid is fine, and his ability to double more reliably wins out.

3-12, I'll give you.

I'll admit that 3-6 and 3-13 carry more weight than any individual chapter they both exist in, but when you combine 3-12 with the other part 4 chapters, Zihark can edge him out.

Dunno about the other Part 4 chapters. Nolan doesn't need a high level in order to double, just needs to promote, so his better strength and axes are probably more valuable. Endgame is pretty close too, but I'd give it to Nolan. Hammer is more useful than Wyrmslayers, since 4-E-1 is rout rather than bosskill.

[-Cynthia-]

Tanith could also Horseslayer the 4-P Paladins.

I don't know about you guys, but I 5-6 turn 1-3, and most of the kills are Sothe running forward to kill everything, except Micaiah who Thanis Generals/boss. Really not much room for Aran to kill things if we're paying efficiently (especially since he's like 4RKOing).

Edited March 26, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

I wouldn't want to assume Horseslayer. Although I guess this is like the last Paladin heavy map in the game, and there are two horseslayers available, so she might get one if they still exist.

There are other weapons she could take though. Any Killer Lance, Killing Edge, Brave Lance/Sword. She could try the Silver Blade or the Tempest Blade, but her hit rate isn't very good with those, which is why I didn't mention them.