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Astrid and Fiona give useful and sellable skills > Lyre or Meg. Also Meg/Fio/Astrid at least deal some damage in their recruiting chapter.

You don't ever need to use or even field Astrid or Fiona to get their skills. That's like giving Ilyana credit for ferrying items over to the GMs. It's a forced storyline event.

Lehran takes a lot of effort to be playable for one chapter = phail.

I wouldn't call blasting the BK with a specter card and then rescuing Ike with Haar to be very hard.

Lucia is great for one chapter but Nephenee/Brom/Mordecai put the exp to better use.

Marcia is one of the superior Crimean knights saving you houses in that one chapter.

Where the exp goes doesn't matter. What does matter is how quickly and efficiently we beat chapters while consuming the least amount of resources. Lucia lets me beat 2-2 very quickly and efficiently. THere is no reason not to use her in that chapter.

Marica does the opposite. She needs exp in her chapters to be able to do anything. She's also not the only one capable of saving houses in 3-9. In fact, there's a sniper or two hovering around the map, which limits her ability to save houses.

Elincia/Micaiah inferior to Oscar? He's alright as a fighter but so are they and they can heal themselves and the team.

Micaiah is debatable, but Elincia is definitely worse than Oscar. Far less availability, and her combat is worse (less durability because of no earth support, and doesn't win offense either).

edit: of course, this brings up the problem with Nephenee's position. Since Haar and Titania now can't get speedwings and Gatrie can't auto-crown whenever he wants, you have a severe lack of doubling units in HM and Neph will fairly easily have the speed to double.

Neph doubling doesn't matter if she loses att to Gattacca, Tits McGee, GAAR, etc., by about 10 points

That's 3-2 until 3-7 where Neph

Neph isn't 20/9 by 3-3, broski.

Hehehe, Smash posted this on the GFAQs boards. Snowy valiantly stepped up to point out what he thought wast the biggest flaw in it... Volug being too high.

That was what the fuss was all about? lol, I didn't know snowy posted, I had him on ignore.

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Sothe is below Nolan by that much...How is that possible?

Sothe with Michaia support and forged iron knife has 27 ATK, Volug's got 25. Volug can't attack at range to avoid counters (helps make up for the 14 HP lead Volug has), can't counter range, can't attack up or down ledges, and Sothe doesn't have a fire weakness either. Sothe has 70 avoid with Michaiah, Volug has 53. Volug can't steal, Volug can't pick chests, and finally Volug hasn't had the chapters Sothe's hax has invaded. Volug's only real win is 14 HP (both have same move, unless it adds 2 when transformed which case Volug has a 2 lead I guess).

Is Volug's only reason for being in top when Sothe isn't his part 3? Can't be his part 4, because I can't imagine how a non-royal laguz is any better than Sothe when he's meh (even though Sothes forced anyways).

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There a number of problems with having Lehran so high, since there are tons of units below him that shave off more turns than he does.

Edward, for 1-P alone. Geoffrey/Kieran for 2-3/3-9 etc. Since the list still claims efficiency, it's really hard to argue that they are such negatives in their later chapters that that outweighs their previous contributions to essentially negative, since Lehran will save us 0 turns, maybe 1 max.

There are lots of other things I could nitpick, but I'll start with that.

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Micaiah is debatable, but Elincia is definitely worse than Oscar. Far less availability, and her combat is worse (less durability because of no earth support, and doesn't win offense either).

Neph isn't 20/9 by 3-3, broski.

Having an unlimited use, personal brave sword + flyer utility < Oscar? He is worse than Titana, and his only two saving graces are earth, and the triangle attack. Otherwise, you could replace him with Geo or just not use him at all.

And Neph can defitily be at third tier for part 3 endgame. You have craptons of BEXP to abuse as you like, and who are you going to give it to? LolBrom? (Gatrie) LolHeather? (You have Sothe and Volke) LolLethe? (Just... Lol)

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Having an unlimited use, personal brave sword + flyer utility < Oscar? He is worse than Titana, and his only two saving graces are earth, and the triangle attack. Otherwise, you could replace him with Geo or just not use him at all.

And Neph can defitily be at third tier for part 3 endgame. You have craptons of BEXP to abuse as you like, and who are you going to give it to? LolBrom? (Gatrie) LolHeather? (You have Sothe and Volke) LolLethe? (Just... Lol)

I don't have "craptons of BEXP" in HM. Though Neph will probably be close to tier 3 by 3-E. Promotes during 3-E or first Part 4 chapter for sure. Probs sooner, as she is one of few units doubling.

And Elincia sucks in smashes opinion because she can't get Paragon to quad.

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Having an unlimited use, personal brave sword + flyer utility < Oscar? He is worse than Titana, and his only two saving graces are earth, and the triangle attack. Otherwise, you could replace him with Geo or just not use him at all.

And Neph can defitily be at third tier for part 3 endgame. You have craptons of BEXP to abuse as you like, and who are you going to give it to? LolBrom? (Gatrie) LolHeather? (You have Sothe and Volke) LolLethe? (Just... Lol)

I think you mean Part TWO Endgame, and I think you're talking about Normal Mode, which nobody seriously debates.

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Having an unlimited use, personal brave sword + flyer utility < Oscar? He is worse than Titana, and his only two saving graces are earth, and the triangle attack. Otherwise, you could replace him with Geo or just not use him at all.

Personal brave sword doesn't matter if she still loses combat to Oscar anyway.

Flier utility? That's none too useful outside of 4-5. Oscar still has the biggest benefit of a mount anyway (canto).

What does being worse than Titania have to do with anything?

You don't "have" to use Oscar, just like you don't have to use Haar or Volug or Titania or Gatrie. Doesn't make it a smart idea.

And Neph can defitily be at third tier for part 3 endgame. You have craptons of BEXP to abuse as you like, and who are you going to give it to? LolBrom? (Gatrie) LolHeather? (You have Sothe and Volke) LolLethe? (Just... Lol)

Neph will be like 20/5 for 3-2. Which means she needs 16 levels in 8 chapters. That's pretty high even for being underleveled. More likely, she's going to be about 20/18-19 by the end of part 3.

For (personal) reference, I don't get Mia or Boyd to promote by the end of part 3, and they start several levels higher than Neph.

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Neph will be like 20/5 for 3-2. Which means she needs 16 levels in 8 chapters. That's pretty high even for being underleveled. More likely, she's going to be about 20/18-19 by the end of part 3.

For (personal) reference, I don't get Mia or Boyd to promote by the end of part 3, and they start several levels higher than Neph.

I have had her at tier three before part two endgame. She fucking rocks.

I can clear that chapter with only two characters. O.o

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Personal brave sword doesn't matter if she still loses combat to Oscar anyway.

Except when she does. Which is what happens when she's given paragon for a chapter. But, hey, that's just the rest of our opinions.

You don't "have" to use Oscar, just like you don't have to use Haar or Volug or Titania or Gatrie. Doesn't make it a smart idea.

The biggest difference being that Oscar doesn't bring what we want to the GM, offense. Yes, the GMs care more about offense than defense. So long as defense isn't so bad the character can't be used, a better offense is appreciated in the GMs. I know this rocks smash's world where defense is the most important thing ever, but it is the truth.

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Except when she does. Which is what happens when she's given paragon for a chapter. But, hey, that's just the rest of our opinions.

Unless Oscar has a brave lance, she wins. But even that brave lance expires, but the Amiti doesn't. Yea, Oscar > Ellinca.

She doesn't need Paragon. Shes 1RKOing almost everything, considering she hits four times. (Except for some trueblades...) She is on the Dragon route, so she can get a crapton of EXP without it.

PLUS, you can BEXP her in 3-F, as you have a boatload of BEXP you won't be seeing for a while.

Edited by Bryan
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Except when she does. Which is what happens when she's given paragon for a chapter. But, hey, that's just the rest of our opinions.

- Units are assumed to get equal amounts of resources (again, the less you need to be good, the better)

Remember, this is Communist Emblem smash is playing. I'm still wondering why he never responded to me, Cynthia, or GJ.

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Maybe he still has you blocked?

That could be...

Either way, Neph can be at --/20/3 (IIRC) with BEXP and useing her to (mostly) solo her chapter. And you could give Elinca a little bit of a boost too. As well as Harr. (though he might not want it till later...)

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Maybe he still has you blocked?

He replied to me on the first page, so he would have had to have done it recently. Plus, it's pretty bad form for the one editing the tier list to completely ignore valid arguments brought up in the topic. Missing them is one thing (I've done that in the past myself) but somehow I don't think posting it, re-posting, and then referencing it once more is simply a case of "I didn't see it."

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Remember, this is Communist Emblem smash is playing. I'm still wondering why he never responded to me, Cynthia, or GJ.

*sigh* I know. It only annoys me because he calls it efficiency despite nothing about it being efficient.

Well, first things first. Lehran down. Normally I wouldn't advocate what is basically a two tier drop, but this shit just can't stand and I'm not going to waste my life arguing him down one at a time for what is 2/3 of another games cast. <_<

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I have had her at tier three before part two endgame. She fucking rocks.

bro, we're discussing hard mode, not normal mode.

Except when she does. Which is what happens when she's given paragon for a chapter. But, hey, that's just the rest of our opinions.

ELINCIA WITH PARAGON > OSCAR WITHOUT PARAGON, THUS ELINCIA IS BETTER

This is getting very, very tiring, okay?

The biggest difference being that Oscar doesn't bring what we want to the GM, offense. Yes, the GMs care more about offense than defense. So long as defense isn't so bad the character can't be used, a better offense is appreciated in the GMs. I know this rocks smash's world where defense is the most important thing ever, but it is the truth.

No, you are wrong, durability matters more than offense.

See, I can make baseless assertions too.

Unless Oscar has a brave lance, she wins. But even that brave lance expires, but the Amiti doesn't. Yea, Oscar > Ellinca.

She doesn't need Paragon. Shes 1RKOing almost everything, considering she hits four times. (Except for some trueblades...) She is on the Dragon route, so she can get a crapton of EXP without it.

Sorry, enemies have 24-25 spd by 4-2. Elincia doesn't reach 28 spd until about 20/20/10. She can't even quad generals until about 20/20/6.

She's also coming from 2 chapters from part 2 to gain levels, and she gets 1 exp for hitting or killing anything. Even if she healed half the time, that at best puts her around 20/20/3 for 4-2.

And again with the ignoring durability part.

PLUS, you can BEXP her in 3-F, as you have a boatload of BEXP you won't be seeing for a while.

Elincia isn't in 3-E.

Remember, this is Communist Emblem smash is playing. I'm still wondering why he never responded to me, Cynthia, or GJ.

You don't give a shit about what I say (going so far as brushing me off in your ranking topic), so why should I bother with you?

The only times I bother to respond to you is if I'm trolling you.

I accidentally skipped cynthia and GJ, I'll get to them in a second.

Sothe is below Nolan by that much...How is that possible?

Sothe with Michaia support and forged iron knife has 27 ATK, Volug's got 25. Volug can't attack at range to avoid counters (helps make up for the 14 HP lead Volug has), can't counter range, can't attack up or down ledges, and Sothe doesn't have a fire weakness either. Sothe has 70 avoid with Michaiah, Volug has 53. Volug can't steal, Volug can't pick chests, and finally Volug hasn't had the chapters Sothe's hax has invaded. Volug's only real win is 14 HP (both have same move, unless it adds 2 when transformed which case Volug has a 2 lead I guess).

Is Volug's only reason for being in top when Sothe isn't his part 3? Can't be his part 4, because I can't imagine how a non-royal laguz is any better than Sothe when he's meh (even though Sothes forced anyways).

So you complain about Sothe being below Nolan... and then you compare him to volug?

In any case, Sothe's part 1 overall is better than Volug's. The issue is that, yes, Volug's leads in part 3 and 4 are worth that much. Volug rapes Sothe in part 3 and 4 far harder than Sothe does it back in part 1.

And yes, the part 4 matters. We have to split every unit we trained into three teams, so every single unit we used is going to see action. Volug can easily hold his own in part 4. Sothe can't.

I suppose the competition for 4-E is stiffer, but he's still fine, and a decent option if only for his earth affinity (depends on whether his supporter is a unit we want to bring to 4-E. Generally I have him support Zihark or Jill, in which case, yes, it's at least it's worth consideration).

There a number of problems with having Lehran so high, since there are tons of units below him that shave off more turns than he does.

Edward, for 1-P alone. Geoffrey/Kieran for 2-3/3-9 etc. Since the list still claims efficiency, it's really hard to argue that they are such negatives in their later chapters that that outweighs their previous contributions to essentially negative, since Lehran will save us 0 turns, maybe 1 max.

There are lots of other things I could nitpick, but I'll start with that.

Admittedly this hinges on what kind of logic/standards you use when tiering units.

The problem with Edward, Geof/Kieran, etc., is that they're good... when they're not only forced, BUT your competition is very, very small. This means you're fielding them not because they're good and better than your other options, but because you have to and you have no other options at all.

For example, suppose we have Ike in the prologue for FE9. He's the only unit available. If Ike did not exist, or we did not use Ike, we could obviously never beat the game. Does that make Ike best unit?

Or another example, Ike to kill Ashera. He's the only one who can do it. Does that make him the best unit in the game?

In these cases, we give less weight (or sometimes ignore) to storyline/forced events. That's how I view Edward, Goef/Kieran, etc, and why I give less weight than a normal chapter for them. In Edward's case it's almost negligible since we only have 3 units to begin with. Geof/Kieran are given a little more weight since there are more units on the team, although I still typically use everyone to varying degrees except Astrid anyway due to lack of manpower. I typically consider something to be a storyline/forced event until we can actually cut people from the team, or we can start to feed or funnel kills to the units we want to use. Or in other words, we actually have enough units available to make active choices in terms of who we want to use and who to drop.

Edited by Andrew W.K.
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You don't give a shit about what I say (going so far as brushing me off in your ranking topic), so why should I bother with you?

The only times I bother to respond to you is if I'm trolling you.

I accidentally skipped cynthia and GJ, I'll get to them in a second.

That was the only time I've ever completely ignored what you said, and for good reason (although apparently your elitist act was a joke according to Paperblade). That was a ranking topic, this is a tier list topic. There is a difference here.

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That was the only time I've ever completely ignored what you said, and for good reason (although apparently your elitist act was a joke according to Paperblade). That was a ranking topic, this is a tier list topic. There is a difference here.

- every other time Mia was brought up

- every other time Aran was brought up

Just off the top of my head.

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- every other time Mia was brought up

- every other time Aran was brought up

Just off the top of my head.

How can you say you were ignored with those? I do not have to be the one to respond for your argument to be acknowledged. If someone else comes in first and says what I would have said on the matter, or just handles it better, there's nothing for me to say, is there?

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Admittedly this hinges on what kind of logic/standards you use when tiering units.

The problem with Edward, Geof/Kieran, etc., is that they're good... when they're not only forced, BUT your competition is very, very small. This means you're fielding them not because they're good and better than your other options, but because you have to and you have no other options at all.

For example, suppose we have Ike in the prologue for FE9. He's the only unit available. If Ike did not exist, or we did not use Ike, we could obviously never beat the game. Does that make Ike best unit?

Or another example, Ike to kill Ashera. He's the only one who can do it. Does that make him the best unit in the game?

In these cases, we give less weight (or sometimes ignore) to storyline/forced events. That's how I view Edward, Goef/Kieran, etc, and why I give less weight than a normal chapter for them. In Edward's case it's almost negligible since we only have 3 units to begin with. Geof/Kieran are given a little more weight since there are more units on the team, although I still typically use everyone to varying degrees except Astrid anyway due to lack of manpower. I typically consider something to be a storyline/forced event until we can actually cut people from the team, or we can start to feed or funnel kills to the units we want to use. Or in other words, we actually have enough units available to make active choices in terms of who we want to use and who to drop.

It doesn't make for interesting debates for units to receive infinite credit for being forced, but it seems silly to give units no credit in situations where they are forced. I like to think of being forced as that there are exactly as many deployment slots as there are units. Granted, there's no competition in receiving slots, but there are still varying degrees of performance which determine how much a unit affects turncount, just as much as units that do compete for slots.

Your system end up creating...unusual situations. For example, Tormod is forced in 1-7 and 1-8, but not in 1-E. Does he receive more credit for 1-E, even though that's his worst map?

There are also some consistency issues here. Tauroneo is Upper Mid, but he is forced in 1-6, 3-12, 3-13. I'm guessing he didn't get that high based off of his subpar Part 4 performance, so I'm wondering what puts him over Lehran and not Kieran/Geoffrey. I guess he has more units to compete with, but it seems odd to actually reward Tauroneo for having a larger team. If anything, it just means that it's easier to replace Tauroneo than Kieran/Geoffrey in my eyes.

Also, Lehran himself is forced for 4-E(5) if recruited, but since his team is big it makes him better? I suppose it's your system, but it doesn't make all that much sense to me.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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ELINCIA WITH PARAGON > OSCAR WITHOUT PARAGON, THUS ELINCIA IS BETTER

This is getting very, very tiring, okay?

Oscar doesn't suddenly start quadding with Paragon, so I don't see how it changes anything.

No, you are wrong, durability matters more than offense.

See, I can make baseless assertions too.

Well, if you want some flesh to the argument, I'll provide. The GMs generally want to get rid of enemies as quickly as possible and continue on in their chapters. Usually for BEXP, but sometimes they care for reasons such as 3-5, where they have limited time to get to the boss, and 3-7 where they want to get as much CEXP as possible. Oh, and your rules demand it, but who cares about that. Because the GMs want a quick pace and have a good number of units, they want offense more than defense so long as their defense doesn't make them unusable.

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Elincia does not need much compared to Oscar

Using her saves you weapons and money. With her unbreakable sword all she will need are healing staves, a heal staff is just about right to get the job done and she is an automatic Physic staff user ;).

Where as Oscar needs weapons and might need a forge to double accurately costing more money. He also has a lot of nice competition for kills and experience. His canto utility is nice but she also has it and can use it a lot better. She does not need to compete with anyone for kills because she benefits your team by healing = more kills for others.

She probably won't need paragon at all since healing gives her good amount of experience.

iirc can also activate stun from her recruiting point and on.

As for Lehran he requires a whole playthrough to be playable for one chapter, to me thats actually a lot of effort.

Edited by Queen_Elincia
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It doesn't make for interesting debates for units to receive infinite credit for being forced, but it seems silly to give units no credit in situations where they are forced. I like to think of being forced as that there are exactly as many deployment slots as there are units. Granted, there's no competition in receiving slots, but there are still varying degrees of performance which determine how much a unit affects turncount, just as much as units that do compete for slots.

Your system end up creating...unusual situations. For example, Tormod is forced in 1-7 and 1-8, but not in 1-E. Does he receive more credit for 1-E, even though that's his worst map?

There are also some consistency issues here. Tauroneo is Upper Mid, but he is forced in 1-6, 3-12, 3-13. I'm guessing he didn't get that high based off of his subpar Part 4 performance, so I'm wondering what puts him over Lehran and not Kieran/Geoffrey. I guess he has more units to compete with, but it seems odd to actually reward Tauroneo for having a larger team. If anything, it just means that it's easier to replace Tauroneo than Kieran/Geoffrey in my eyes.

Also, Lehran himself is forced for 4-E(5) if recruited, but since his team is big it makes him better? I suppose it's your system, but it doesn't make all that much sense to me.

Note the last sentences...

I typically consider something to be a storyline/forced event until we can actually cut people from the team, or we can start to feed or funnel kills to the units we want to use. Or in other words, we actually have enough units available to make active choices in terms of who we want to use and who to drop.

For example, Tormod is forced in 1-7 and 1-8, but we have a surplus of units and we have to make an active decision of who to continue to use and who to drop. We decide to keep Tormod as a fighter because he's strong. In his place we drop units like Edward or Leo who are weak.

Tauroneo's team relative to Kieran/Geof's team is indeed larger, but Tauroneo remains good largely because of how MUCH better he is. There is literally no one touching him in terms of raw stats for 1-6. On the other hand, the gap between Kieran/Geof and the other CRKs isn't nearly as large as, say, Tauroneo vs Nolan or Aran. For example, Mak roughly matches those two in durability (very similar HP/def). Nolan and Aran get crushed in everything compared to Tauroneo.

(Now there are other units like Volug, Sothe, etc. competing with Tauroneo in 1-6, but that's okay, since 1-6 is a large map and can accommodate that many good units, which is why Nolan and Aran aren't dragging us down either. Compared to, say, 2-3 or 3-9, which is smaller with fewer enemies in comparison, or for 2-3's case, fewer enemies you need to kill).

I'm starting to think maybe we shouldn't even rank Lehran at all. The FE9 tier list as far as I know doesn't rank Giffca/Naesala/Tibarn. Some FE7 lists don't rank Athos either.

Oscar doesn't suddenly start quadding with Paragon, so I don't see how it changes anything.

Any 1RKOing issues Oscar had will now cease to exist (other than I guess generals and SMs, but Elincia has problems with the latter, and I'm not certain if Elicnia is 4HKOing generals with Amiti).

Sorry, go somewhere else where people might actually care that a babied Elincia is 3HKOing and quadding while a babied Oscar is 2HKOing and doubling, since the enemy is dead either way. Those people might think Tibarn is the best unit in the game because he has the highest stats in the game and other people like *insert random unit* because they capped everything and have flashing green numbers.

Well, if you want some flesh to the argument, I'll provide. The GMs generally want to get rid of enemies as quickly as possible and continue on in their chapters. Usually for BEXP, but sometimes they care for reasons such as 3-5, where they have limited time to get to the boss, and 3-7 where they want to get as much CEXP as possible. Oh, and your rules demand it, but who cares about that. Because the GMs want a quick pace and have a good number of units, they want offense more than defense so long as their defense doesn't make them unusable.

If you go too fast and face too many enemies in one turn without the durability to take them on (like taking on a hoard of paladins in 3-5), you die. You have a "good number of units", they can all swarm enemies and kill them off even if they have poor offense anyway, so why bother 1RKOing and have units sitting around doing nothing when you can 2RKO and get the job done in the same time frame?

durability > offense, mirite

Or what's actually in reality, offense = defense. we can both make bullshit arguments, see?

Using her saves you weapons and money. With her unbreakable sword all she will need are healing staves, a heal staff is just about right to get the job done and she is an automatic Physic staff user ;).

Money is not a terribly big concern in part 4 which makes up a significant part of Elincia's availability anyway.

Where as Oscar needs weapons and might need a forge to double accurately costing more money. He also has a lot of nice competition for kills and experience. His canto utility is nice but she also has it and can use it a lot better. She does not need to compete with anyone for kills because she benefits your team by healing = more kills for others.

Yes, Oscar consumes kills/exp/resources. However, he's also helping us out killing stuff when Elincia isn't around. For an average unit like Boyd, the benefit of helping us out in chapters and the drawback of stealing kills/exp roughly evens out. For a poor unit like Soren or Rolf, the drawbacks exceed the benefits. However, for good units like Oscar or Titania, it's the opposite.

She probably won't need paragon at all since healing gives her good amount of experience.

....heal is only 11 exp a use, bro. It takes 9 uses before she even barely gets a level.

If Elincia wants any decent amount of exp so she can quad, she HAS to get paragon. There's literally no other way.

iirc can also activate stun from her recruiting point and on.

Her only saving grace. Too bad it still doesn't help her defense.

As for Lehran he requires a whole playthrough to be playable for one chapter, to me thats actually a lot of effort.

...you can't even play hard mode without beating the game once. Why aren't you complaining about making a hard mode list?

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