tier list

[dondon151]

Or what's actually in reality, offense = defense. we can both make bullshit arguments, see?

Wrong, sir. 3-6. Argument invalidated.

[Narga_Rocks]

Wrong, sir. 3-6. Argument invalidated.

I particularly love the lack of retracting his anti RF statements where he implies she does whatever Interceptor tells her to do. Paperblade is also guilty of this. No surprise that they are together in this. (I'm not even asking him to apologize for baseless accusations like that. Just say that he takes it back. No apologies necessary, since this is smash we are talking about and I don't expect much.)

As for Elincia, it's funny he thinks that she has a problem with swordmasters considering swordmasters are the enemies she starts ORKOing first (aside from the obvious like mages and bishops). It's amazing what you can do with a 15 mt brave sword. They get 2 hit before she starts quadding halbs and warriors and snipers (things that are 3HKO once she gets to the point of 2 hitting swordies). Also, who does ORKO the generals of 4-E-1? Shinon, Cain, Giffca. Even Tibarn and Nailah fail on many of them, and Ike fails on most of them. Elincia at least gives you 4 shots at stun, which is a much better proc rate than most characters can achieve considering nobody is allowed to have Adept on his list. You only have 2 hammers, and since units get equal resources here you really can't assume any units gets access to the hammers for this chapter.

Oh, and considering we are suggesting Paragon on Elincia for 4-2 only, a similar deal for Oscar is he gets it for the first chapter of part 4 in which he participates (even though he's a bad candidate for it. Not like that ever bothered smashy). What level do you see him getting to there, Smash? Moreover, which route is he going? 4-4 doesn't do him any favours, and Elincia is >>> Oscar in 4-5 if you have any tactical skill whatsoever.

Oh, and smash's comments about Marcia in 3-9 again show how incompetent he is at properly using characters he dislikes. But Aran? Oh, he can build his level so quickly. He even pulls off a level for him in 1-3. Smash's skill with a character is directly proportional to how much he likes him/her (though aside from rare units like Titania it is mostly hims that smash goes gaga over).

[-Cynthia-]

Not tiering Lehran is an idea, although at that point I'm not sure why would tier Nasir or Gareth (they have like an extra 4 turns of playtime). The BK easily has more playtime than any of them and isn't tiered. RD is weird to tier sometimes.

Speaking of characters without much playtime, I don't really see how Cain/Giffca > Naesala.

Naesala might be your best unit on Micaiah's team. Doubles everything, incredible durability due to dodge and Def(even xbows don't OHKO him). I guess he doesn't ORKO everything, but with doubling + an insane Tear rate his chances of killing Generals and Dracoknights are pretty high regardless (not like anyone else is ORKOing them much without activations either, so meh).

4-E(1) I'll concede to the lions. 4-E(2) doesn't matter anyway, since it's just Ike killing the BK. 4-E(3) is pretty even, no one's ORKOing without an ability activation and Naesala is a little easier to manipulate (higher Adept rate). Naesala is arguably more durable as well, since he will dodge a lot more, which evens it up against Reds and Naesala takes on Whites better.

I would say Naesala's better for 4-E(4) and 4-E(5), simply because he can double auras/spirits and Canto away to allow another unit to fill the spot (it also means Naesala can use a Red for more damage). Plus, he ends up with a durability lead, because more dodge+ Res is all that matter for the last 2 chapters.

In other factors, Naesala can fly over gaps which is handy and he's a better support partner because he has more chapters. Giffca also has to deal with transforming, which wastes hima few player phases.

Basically, Cain and Giffca not so much better in 4-E that they counter Naesala's 4-P and 4-3 IMO.

[Progenitus]

Not tiering Lehran is an idea, although at that point I'm not sure why would tier Nasir or Gareth (they have like an extra 4 turns of playtime). The BK easily has more playtime than any of them and isn't tiered. RD is weird to tier sometimes.

Meh. I think we should still tier Nasir and Gareth, since they aren't auto-forced into their short chapters and will be edging people out of the team if they want to be fielded.

BK.... is another story.

Speaking of characters without much playtime, I don't really see how Cain/Giffca > Naesala.

Possibly. 4-P and especially 4-3 help tip the scales in Naesala's favor, and he's not completely outclassed by the lions in 4-E due to canto. 4-E-3 is arguably in Naesala's favor even, since with canto he can attack on player phase and not be a sitting duck on enemy phase. Canto means he has an easier time abusing the dragons' tides in 4-E-5 (granted, Giffca/Cain are scary with nasir's tide).

Even though Cain/Giffca can 2HKO 4-E-1 generals, Naesala has over a 70+ base chance to proc Tear at neutral bio, which isn't too bad.

I'll make the change.

Wrong, sir. 3-6. Argument invalidated.

Listing a random chapter is supposed to tell us what, exactly?

[grandjackal]

So you complain about Sothe being below Nolan... and then you compare him to volug?

Sothe compares to Volug, Volug's over Nolan, you get the picture.

In any case, Sothe's part 1 overall is better than Volug's. The issue is that, yes, Volug's leads in part 3 and 4 are worth that much. Volug rapes Sothe in part 3 and 4 far harder than Sothe does it back in part 1.

1. Thanks for conceding on Sothe's superior part 1, no having to compare him to Nolan there, not that he can.

2. How does Sothe's part 3 suck to Volug's when Volug is useless the first 2 turns of every battle thanks to transformation issues? Factor in versatility with throwing daggers to help him keep his offense while falling back for a healing and the Beastslayer daggar, I fail to see how Volug's exactly smoking him. That's for 3-6 mind you, as those daggers allow him to go gigging on the ridge in 3-12, or still have ranged combat which now counters the beorc with ranged weapons where not only Volug can't, but fuck greatly with his meter. Then, 3-13 can basically be stalemated by hobos, if Volug's got a lead, it's not exactly a lot. Sothe can also nab the Brave Bow, for what it's worth.

3. Sothe might be a bit meh in part 4, but he still has uses where others can't. Looking at stats of the enemy for a level 20 Volug, even with SS he's no combat magician. Bit of BEXP Sothe's way once he caps Str and Skill before promotion, offense could actually be considered better with Bane allowing hm the chance to ORKO when it activates on the first strike, since it's not like Volug's able to ORKO anything outside of hurrr mages. Then we have the desert, which has goodies only Sothe can nab without some severe luck. Furthermore, Sothe doesn't take up a unit slot, as he's forced.

Once Baselard and Peshkatz are in his hands, Volug's offense is losing all around. Similar damage with Baselard, a ranged option in Peshkatz, and finally Bane helping in things he can't quite 1RKO that can allow him to at least bring something down to 1 HP. Volug might be slightly better in combat (he's got better durability by far...When he's trandsformed), but Sothe's still quite useful. Along with being forced, so you might as well use him anyways.

And yes, the part 4 matters. We have to split every unit we trained into three teams, so every single unit we used is going to see action. Volug can easily hold his own in part 4. Sothe can't.

10+2*/1 Sothe A Miccy- 43 HP, 24+2 Str, 9.8 Mag, 28 Skill, 28.95 Speed, 24.15 Luck, 17.8 Def, 16.7 Res. 44 ATK Baselard. 82+15 avoid

22 Volug- 55.65 HP, 12.75 Str, 3.05 Mag, 14.45 Skill, 15.8 Speed, 19.3 Luck, 10.05 Def, 5.7 Res. 45 ATK SS Strike. 81+22 avoid

Sure, Volug seems better...When he's transformed. Sothe on the other hand Sothe doesn't fail out on me, nor is he useless the first two turns without taking a laguz stone from our heron. Even if I got Volug a better than base support, it doesn't stop the fact his transformation is an issue.

Did I mention Sothe's forced anyways?

I suppose the competition for 4-E is stiffer, but he's still fine, and a decent option if only for his earth affinity (depends on whether his supporter is a unit we want to bring to 4-E. Generally I have him support Zihark or Jill, in which case, yes, it's at least it's worth consideration).

All fine and dandy, but you know, Sothe's forced? He doesn't have to bother with competition at all?

Edited February 16, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Interceptor]

Since the one here is currently dead...

Hmmm, I'm not sure about this.

Since I finally manned up and took Interceptor's challenge

Ahh yes, this would be much more accurate.

Anyway, I think it's an excellent idea to spell out the criteria in the OP, and while I'm a bit concerned that you didn't think it necessary to do that from the start, fortunately Narga showed you the error of your ways.

I'm still wondering why he never responded to me, Cynthia, or GJ.

I wouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth; he's making you seem like Solomon.

[RNG Princess]

I don't know by how much but only 1 SS lance makes it tough for every lancer don't you think?

Thats another of Elincia's saving grace ;)

[dondon151]

Listing a random chapter is supposed to tell us what, exactly?

Is your memory that poor, smash? Or is it your inference skills?

Or what's actually in reality, offense = defense. we can both make bullshit arguments, see?

[nflchamp]

Is your memory that poor, smash? Or is it your inference skills?

It still doesn't tell much since the discussion was about the GMs and not the DB.

[dondon151]

It still doesn't tell much since the discussion was about the GMs and not the DB.

It doesn't matter exactly what it was about. The blanket statement "offense = defense," whether or not it was only meant to apply to the GMs, is not true at any point in the game.

[Interceptor]

It's all very nice to dismiss the value of being able to ORKO for the GMs because you can (sort of) just beast your way through a lot of Part 3's chapters by deploying as many people as possible and matching up people for 2RKOs (having a higher durability unit eat counters when possible), but you are eventually going to have to pay the piper, so to speak.

Spreading EXP between so many units is going to hurt your active GM unit average levels going into Part 4. Order enemy stats are a big jump, and while some growth units units like Mia/Nephenee/Shinon can be fine even if they only barely make promotion because of their caps/growths/bases/masteries/whatever, there are units like Gatrie/Oscar that have one serious problem or another that will arise from being too low-leveled.

You can't really hand-wave the value of Part 3 offense above and beyond the 2RKO, full deployment is not the most efficient deployment.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's all very nice to dismiss the value of being able to ORKO for the GMs because you can (sort of) just beast your way through a lot of Part 3's chapters by deploying as many people as possible and matching up people for 2RKOs (having a higher durability unit eat counters when possible), but you are eventually going to have to pay the piper, so to speak.

Spreading EXP between so many units is going to hurt your active GM unit average levels going into Part 4. Order enemy stats are a big jump, and while some growth units units like Mia/Nephenee/Shinon can be fine even if they only barely make promotion because of their caps/growths/bases/masteries/whatever, there are units like Gatrie/Oscar that have one serious problem or another that will arise from being too low-leveled.

You can't really hand-wave the value of Part 3 offense above and beyond the 2RKO, full deployment is not the most efficient deployment.

But doesn't this just let you know why he values Zihark and Nolan so much in part 4 despite how severely most GM units are supposed to crush them there on HM? Except by using the machine gun method in part 3 rather than more focused and powerful weapons he leaves part 3 with a lower overall level and the DB scrubs can compete better.

Of course, loving units that have lots of durability and 1-2 range brings into question what the point of Shinon being able to ORKO is. If everything is getting damaged on enemy phase (even those enemies with 2 range) then one wonders what the basis is for the Shinon love (which has, apparently, waned in recent times).

(oh, and may as well ask why smash thinks Neph needs to be 20/9 to double stuff in 3-3. She has 24 AS at 20/7 more often than not, and that's all that is needed in 3-3. Even Vykan suggested that Neph should have no problems doubling in 3-3 when I was suggesting giving her some bexp in 2-E to boost her speed to make doubling easier in part 3. Long time ago on the good tier list topic. Go search if you don't believe. I know what was there so I have no reason to find it for any doubters.)

Edited February 17, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Of course, loving units that have lots of durability and 1-2 range brings into question what the point of Shinon being able to ORKO is. If everything is getting damaged on enemy phase (even those enemies with 2 range) then one wonders what the basis is for the Shinon love (which has, apparently, waned in recent times).

That's easy: Shinon has crossbows for 1-2, and doesn't know how to die, which satisfies both conditions plus avoids the cost of Silencer. All that he has to do is make it to Marksman, and then he gets ghetto Canto. One short hop, skip, and jump later, he's soloing Endgame with the Double Bow.

(oh, and may as well ask why smash thinks Neph needs to be 20/9 to double stuff in 3-3. She has 24 AS at 20/7 more often than not, and that's all that is needed in 3-3. Even Vykan suggested that Neph should have no problems doubling in 3-3 when I was suggesting giving her some bexp in 2-E to boost her speed to make doubling easier in part 3. Long time ago on the good tier list topic. Go search if you don't believe. I know what was there so I have no reason to find it for any doubters.)

10 cents says that he's only looking at the 21 AS enemies, and making her use a Steel Greatlance.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's easy: Shinon has crossbows for 1-2, and doesn't know how to die, which satisfies both conditions plus avoids the cost of Silencer. All that he has to do is make it to Marksman, and then he gets ghetto Canto. One short hop, skip, and jump later, he's soloing Endgame with the Double Bow.

Right, smash doesn't care how little damage it does. Hey, at least if he crits once he does a little more than the damage that Mia does in 2 normal hits. Well, at first Shinon is less sucky than that (especially before her str growth starts working and before Steel Blades) but eventually 28 mt does 28 damage on 21 def enemies with one crit, and Mia has 34 mt with a steel blade and no support and just 21 str. 26 damage on the same enemies. That's in 3-8 assuming she hasn't gotten past 21 str yet (against halbs). Assume the player is smart enough to give her any support and...

10 cents says that he's only looking at the 21 AS enemies, and making her use a Steel Greatlance.

There is one 21AS enemy in 3-3 before turn 11. And you shouldn't be there anymore at that point. And yet you are probably right on what Smash is thinking.

And you might be right about the steel greatlance, too. Since forges are crimes, he probably thinks giving her the weapon with the highest mt is doing her a favour. She could do more damage with almost any weapon that lets her double. Plus, you'd think he'd be willing to give everyone a +3mt forge at the very least (and Gatrie would appreciate +hit). 30 mt for 20/7 Neph with that weapon, and 22 damage to the 19 def halbs. 41 mt is needed to match that damage if you don't double.

[Progenitus]

Is your memory that poor, smash? Or is it your inference skills?

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong, there are ALWAYS exceptions to any rule in fire emblem debating.

e.g. Rule: Speed is the most important stat.

Exception: If it's in a game where enemies have 0 AS, so everyone doubles anyway.

Yes, there will be chapters (or sometimes entire games) where offense matters more than defense, or defense matters more. But the rule is to assume they are both equal until proven otherwise. I would've bought offense > defense if nflchamp's argument wasn't lackluster.

2. How does Sothe's part 3 suck to Volug's when Volug is useless the first 2 turns of every battle thanks to transformation issues? Factor in versatility with throwing daggers to help him keep his offense while falling back for a healing and the Beastslayer daggar, I fail to see how Volug's exactly smoking him. That's for 3-6 mind you, as those daggers allow him to go gigging on the ridge in 3-12, or still have ranged combat which now counters the beorc with ranged weapons where not only Volug can't, but fuck greatly with his meter. Then, 3-13 can basically be stalemated by hobos, if Volug's got a lead, it's not exactly a lot. Sothe can also nab the Brave Bow, for what it's worth.

Sothe's part 3 sucks and blows because he's 2HKO'd by tigers forever (he has 40 HP and 20 def caps versus tigers who have around 40 att) and 3HKO'd by cats forever (if lucky he'll escape the 3HKO towards the end of 3-13, whoopie) and his avoid is not good enough to reliably dodge. Volug at base level is 3HKO'd by tigers, and is liek 5HKO'd by cats. This only gets better for Volug because he has lolearth for more avoid than Sothe can ever imagine.

Yes, Volug spends two turns grassing, then rapestomps Sothe for the rest of the chapter. 2 turns <<<< the rest of the chapter.

It's fun if Sothe throws daggers. Let's see... chipping for single digit damage, or 1RKOing cats and 3HKOing and doubling tigers? Hmm, I wonder which is better...

Part 3 Volug versus anyone is a hilarious rapestomp in Volug's favor. See the Nolan vs Volug topic on gamefaqs for reference (note that Nolan >>>> Sothe in part 3), because there's really no need to repeat these arguments when they've already been stated.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=932999&topic=44098691

3. Sothe might be a bit meh in part 4, but he still has uses where others can't. Looking at stats of the enemy for a level 20 Volug, even with SS he's no combat magician. Bit of BEXP Sothe's way once he caps Str and Skill before promotion, offense could actually be considered better with Bane allowing hm the chance to ORKO when it activates on the first strike, since it's not like Volug's able to ORKO anything outside of hurrr mages.

Sothe is 20/20/1 and Volug somehow only gets 5 levels over the course of 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, AND 4-P (along with any exp he got in part 1) in the same time frame? Please, let's not joke around here.

Volug only has to be about level 25 with SS Strike to beat Sothe in attack forever (28 str + 18 mt baselard vs 13-14 str before transforming + 19 mt strike). A level Volug can reach halfway through 4-3 or so and a strike rank easily obtainable by now vs Sothe's max potential.

Throw in Miccy support for Sothe if you want, Volug only needs to gain 4 more levels to match it. That's all I need to say about offense.

By the way, Sothe only has a 14% chance to bane on the first hit, and the max it'll ever go up to is 19%, so let's not get excited about such a small chance. And when Volug gets his mastery, lol. Something like 55% chance to 1RKO something versus a 14-19% chance of bringing the enemy to 1 HP on the first attack and then taking a counter before killing it + 14-19% chance to bring the enemy down to 1 HP on the second attack (and unfortunately not killing it off immediately). Let's not go this route, shall we?

Durability (which you again neglected to mention) is a total joke in Volug's favor, and I see why you ignored it.

20/20/1 Sothe, A Miccy... 44 HP, 19.8 def, 18.7 res, 103.45 avo

23 Volug, A Jill... 56.6 HP, 22.4 def, 13.6 res, 115 avo

A Zihark... 56.6 HP, 20.4 def, 11.6 res, 130 avo

3x Warrior lvl 10 (Stl Axe):

52 HP, 40 Atk, 26 AS, 151 Hit, 74 Avo, 21 Def, 14 Res, 13 Crit, 22 Ddg

Sothe loses 45.9% of his HP and faces 47.55 hit (~45 real).

Volug A Jill loses 31.1% of his HP and faces 36 hit (26.26 real).

Volug A Zihark loses 34.6% of his HP and faces 21 hit 9.03 real).

Sothe's chances to die in 3 hits are 9.11%. 24.1% in 4 hits. 40.7% in 5 hits.

VolugxJill's chances to die in 3 hits are 0%. 4 hits, 0.476%. 1.88% in 5.

VolugxZihark's chances to die in 3 are 0.0736%. 0.275% in 4 hits. 0.640% in 5.

Sothe's chances to die in 4 hits is 50.6 times greater than VolugxJill's chances to die in 4. Chances to die in 5 are 21.6 times greater.

Sothe's chances to die in 3 hits are 124 times greater than VolugxZihark's chances to die in 3. Chances to die in 4 are 87.6 times greater. Chances to die in 5 are 63.6 times greater.

Here I took one of the higher hit enemies, where Volug's assraping of Sothe is not as evident. Let me take a less accurate enemy.

2x Dragonmaster lvl 9 (Stl Poleaxe):

48 HP, 43 Atk, 23 AS, 133 Hit, 65 Avo, 27 Def, 12 Res, 13 Crit

Sothe loses 52.7% of his HP a hit and faces 29.55 hit (~17.8 real).

VolugxJill loses 36.4% of his HP and faces 18 hit (6.66 real).

VolugxZihark loses 39.9% of his HP and faces 5 hit (0.55 real).

Sothe's chances to die in 2 hits are 3.17%. Chances to die in 3 are 8.38%. DIe in 4 is 14.8%. Die in 5 is 21.8%.

VolugxJill's chances to die in 3 hits are 0.0287%. Chances to die in 4 are 0.109%. Die in 5 are 0.260%. He doesn't even break a 1% chance of dying until 8 hits.

Sothe's chances to die in 3 hits are 292 times greater than Volug's chances to die in 3. Chances to die in 4 are 136 times greater. Chances to die in 5 are 83.8 times greater.

VolugxJill's chances of dying in 11 hits is 3.18%, the same as Sothe's to die in 2.

lol, and I'm not even gonna bother with VolugxZIhark.

This is a rapestomp in Volug's favor, beyond any magnitude Sothe beats Volug in any chapter, ever.

Then we have the desert, which has goodies only Sothe can nab without some severe luck.

Most of these items are only there to sell for more gold, and it's not like we really need more when part 4 comes around.

I'll give him credit for the laguz gem, but to actually get any use out of it, you need to actually field laguz who can use them. Laguz liek.... volug.

Furthermore, Sothe doesn't take up a unit slot, as he's forced.

Sothe doesn't take up a unit slot, oh goodie. Except we have more than enough unit slots in 4-P and 4-3 to field whoever we want anyway, and in 4-E he does nothing except sit on the bench because his durability is among the worst in the team by this point. Volug takes up a unit slot, except he's not deadweight because he can actually fight well.

Sothe doing nothing vs Volug taking up someone else's place who he does almost as well (if not just as well) as the unit he replaced. Not to mention that Volug will also be giving out a support.

Once Baselard and Peshkatz are in his hands, Volug's offense is losing all around. Similar damage with Baselard, a ranged option in Peshkatz, and finally Bane helping in things he can't quite 1RKO that can allow him to at least bring something down to 1 HP. Volug might be slightly better in combat (he's got better durability by far...When he's trandsformed), but Sothe's still quite useful. Along with being forced, so you might as well use him anyways.

Yeah, "similar" offense, if Sothe actually doubles (30-31 spd at 20/20/1 vs enemies with 26-27 spd), and magically starts with capped str after just promoting, and somehow starts with SS-rank knives when his 2nd tier cap is S-rank, and Volug is only level 20 for some reason instead of 23-24.

In reality, Sothe loses offense to Volug forever, and durability is, as shown, a rapestomp.

Let's not get excited over Sothe beyond part 1, okay? His part 3 is like "WHAT IF ZIHARK WAS UNSUPPORTED" (which, frankly, sucks dick, as if SUPPORTED Zihark didn't already get sandbagged to hell and back), and his part 4 is among the worst in the team.

by the way, interceptor and narga_rocks, please take your circle jerking elsewhere. At least go to a hotel.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Andrew W.K.

[Interceptor]

What Andrew W.K. Really Meant:

by the way, interceptor and narga_rocks, please stop making me look ridiculous.

So, does this mean that you're not going to address the issue of underleveled GMs in Part 4, or why Nephenee needs 25 AS in 3-3?

Edited February 17, 2010 by Interceptor

[Anouleth]

Sooo...

Sanaki>Oliver

Sanaki joins in 4-P:

Sanaki w/Wind

28HP 37ATK 171HIT 23AS 78AVO 10DEF 28RES

Sanaki w/Cymbeline

28HP 46ATK 171HIT 20AS 72AVO 10DEF 28RES (and 22 crit, if anyone cares)

Sanaki is lucky to be in this chapter - the enemies are largely Failadins, so enemy AS is generally low. Using Cymbeline over Wind only makes her vulnerable to being doubled by a few Warriors, who largely OHKO her anyway, so she can use Cymbeline for most of this level. In addition, the map makes it very easy to shield her from enemies, since you have two chokepoints near your initial location. You will almost certainly be blocking up these chokepoints anyway, to protect Micaiah, Leanne, and if you didn't bother training him, Sothe. The Paladins have ~44 HP and ~16 RES, so she can put them on 14 HP for someone else, maybe a DB unit like Jill, to finish it off. Or she can finish off something someone else failed to kill. Or she can gang up on one with Micaiah. So while she's certainly not good, she's better than nothing.

In 4-3, lets give her 3 levels.

Sanaki w/Fire

30HP 40ATK 172HIT 24AS 82AVO 11DEF 30RES

Sanaki w/Cymbeline

30HP 48ATK 177HIT 22AS 78AVO 11DEF 30RES (and 21 crit, if anyone cares)

Sanaki w/forged Thunder (effective)

30HP 59ATK 162HIT 24AS 82AVO 11DEF 30RES

Again, poor durability, but this is desert, so she can outrun most enemies. She's extremely close to OHKOing the Wyverns, she only needs a card on her forge or a Spirit Dust or something. And she's still 2HKOing most enemies, OHKOes most with a Flare. Again, she's better than nothing, since you still have plenty of squishy people who need protecting, such as Leanne or Micaiah.

In 4-4, Oliver joins, but he joins so late in the level, his performance there isn't worth mentioning.

To Endgame! Unlike Sanaki, Oliver takes up a unit slot that could have gone to someone else, and trust me, at this point, ANYONE is better than Oliver.

Level 7 Sanaki w/Cymbeline

32HP 50ATK 197HIT 25AS 98AVO 12DEF 31RES

Base level Oliver w/Valaura

48HP 39ATK 182HIT 20AS 83AVO 18DEF 32RES

Oliver is getting DOUBLED by Generals. His durability may appear better than Sanaki's, but Sanaki may have formed a support, so she could avoid a few OHKOes, and at the very least her avoid is more reliable than his. And if she really wants to avoid enemies, she can always pick up a leftover siege tome that nobody wants, and she still outdamages Oliver. Oliver may have healing, but the Generals are horribly inaccurate. If you've been paying any attention at all to supporting people with Earth affinities, Micaiah is more than enough.

In 4-E-2, she wins purely for dealing better damage to Levail. And the whole not taking a deployment slot thing. 4-E-3, she can range-bomb stuff, but that isn't quite as useful as healing. If you put her next to Kurth and on a Wardwood tile, it's conceivable that she could Nosferatu-tank. 4-E-4, nobody is realistically dying - the Spirits go for characters with 1-range, and even the weakest units such as Gareth can stand next to Kurth, or on a Wardwood tile, or drink a Pure Water. And we're close enough to the end of the game that we can just use Micaiah to spam Fortify.

4-E-5 is a clear win for Sanaki though. We will definitely be using Micaiah to spam fortify, so Sanaki's better damage will be noticeable.

So, there we go. Sanaki's always providing a benefit in the form of chip damage, while all Oliver does is take away a slot from someone better. And trust, me, everyone is better - we could field a team entirely of people who join in third tier, and we'd still have room to exclude Oliver - Elincia, Bastian, Renning, Volke, Stefan, Giffca, Caineghis, Tibarn, Naesala, and Nailah. So Oliver is only ever negative utility, while Sanaki provides positive utility. (I mean, I could understand someone arguing Oliver>Sanaki on a gross tier list, but you specifically set out to make a net tier list.)

[Interceptor]

Indeed, Sanaki is definitely too low by this list's own rules, and Oliver is just the first step.

What resources does she really use? Her best weapon is Cymbeline, the PRF tome that nobody else can use anyway, and the only times that you need anything different is if you want her blicking Dracos, or bombing with a siege tome. She never takes a deployment slot, she's an excellent weakener (as a 2-range unit that rarely ORKOs), and the worst outcome with her in a chapter is that she gets held back because you can't adequately protect her.

On the subject of siege tomes, by the way, they are under-rated on Dragons in 4-E-3. Many characters cannot ORKO without crit/mastery procs, not even Ike, and Sanaki can more reliably guarantee a kill from a safe distance. Plus, Sanaki can easily take a spot next to Ena if the +5 AS for her would make a difference when siege bombing (which is entirely possible with Blizzard and a some levels).

[Colonel M]

Good luck raising Sanaki up. smash has this weird grudge due to her killing his parents or something with her "meh" durability, which is easier to patch.

Oh, and why is Meg a tier over Astrid?

[Narga_Rocks]

Sanaki's always providing a benefit in the form of chip damage, while all Oliver does is take away a slot from someone better. And trust, me, everyone is better - we could field a team entirely of people who join in third tier, and we'd still have room to exclude Oliver - Elincia, Bastian, Renning, Volke, Stefan, Giffca, Caineghis, Tibarn, Naesala, and Nailah. So Oliver is only ever negative utility, while Sanaki provides positive utility. (I mean, I could understand someone arguing Oliver>Sanaki on a gross tier list, but you specifically set out to make a net tier list.)

You forget that while Smash is a decent tactician with characters he likes, he's completely incompetent with those he hates. Therefore, despite how everyone else can make Sanaki contribute well enough for us to raise her on a tier list relative to where smash has her, he seems to think that she'll die if you try to do anything helpful with her.

p.s. anyone here see his lame justification on gamefaqs for Zihark being guaranteed an Earth but Mia not able to get one at all? Then he goes and compares their durability in part 4 with this in mind.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[RNG Princess]

Thats true about Sanaki :P i've been doing that to raise Kieran but I think Smash is right about Volug and Sothe.

Unless Sothe is unequipped in enemy phase and being constantly healed, Volug can do that too and raise his red gauge.

Well pemn but i did that in the swamp chapter and it workedjust fine plus I raised Fiona :).

[Progenitus]

Sanaki is lucky to be in this chapter - the enemies are largely Failadins, so enemy AS is generally low.

Which makes them easy to kill.

You only need liek 26 AS and low 40s att to kill them, which means anyone that has a reasonable chance to be fielded (i.e. most mid tiers) will 1RKO anyway. Those that can't are units like Zihark who can pick up a killer weapon, or are people like Haar who doesn't even need to make a wall for sanaki; he just flies into the middle of the enemies and lols @ them trying to damage him (not to mention he doubles most of them anyway). Any lance user can use the horseslayer for easy OHKOs too.

Using Sanaki here makes it easier to feed kills to low tier units that probably aren't even fielded.

4-3 requires that we have every single tanky unit on the team to be out on their own soloing a part of the map, since this is not a normal map where enemies have 7 move and we can have 5+ enemies suicide into someone every turn. These scrubs have like 2 move, which means only 2-3 will suicide into someone a turn. Which means I don't want to have 3+ tanks sitting around Sanaki just so she can do a single potshot that won't even kill her enemy unless she flare's, because without a wall of meat she dies.

4-E-1 is a horrible chapter for her too because the generals have lots of att, which means they'll OHKO her (the LOWEST att general in 4-E-1 is a 41 att short spear. The NEXT lowest is 43. some even reach 50), so we can't just go "dur forge a tome for her because she's a nub and Cymbaline is still weighing her down", they're OHKOing her anyway. I recall a lot of wardwoods in this chapter too, which really sucks because now with Cymabline she's like 3-4HKOing and not doubling, and at this point I may as well not even field her. Also, by this point Flare is probably not OHKOing anymore even with Cymbaline, because Flare is a nubass mastery.

4-E-2 is even worse, since it's an open field, so have fun at making walls for her without slowing the team down, since she needs to be completely surrounded and still can't do anything if 2-range enemies can reach her. Considering basically everything can OHKO or one round her except halbs, even if she's using a forged tome so she doesn't lose AS, that's hilarious.

4-E-3 is even worse than 4-E-2, believe it or not, because red dragons have like 58 att, so Sanaki ON COVER doesn't stop getting OHKO'd until level 12 (she can stop getting OHKO'd earlier if she supports, but, who wants light at this point in the game?). White dragons actually 2HKO her if she's not on wardwood until she's like level 18, because her base HP is that bad. Meat shields obviously wont' save her anymore.

"but siege tome", except she still does squat. The dragons reach up to 14 AS, so Sanaki with purge, the LIGHTEST siege tome, doesn't double them until level 13. She's not reaching that level without feeding kills to her, since potshotting doesn't involve "let's feed Sanaki a kill every turn". Using Ena to give her +5 str is retarded too. hey guys, let's use ena so she can give a single unit +5 str because that unit's too much of a nub to double anything otherwise, instead of putting ena on the frontlines so everyone on my team gets +5 str (10 more damage since everyone that isn't sanaki doubles) and, for most units, a higher mastery proc rate. Not to mention that Ena can fill a chokepoint because the dragons don't attack her (or Kurth/Reyson for that matter).

by 4-E-4 she's not even worth bothering with, since the enemies have a ton of res, and she might actually die on us if she's not on wardwood, especially if all the exp she got was from potshotting. She needs to be level 12 to not get doubled by the 30 AS spirits, which is laughable because the wind ones have 39 att, which means they're like 3-rounding her if she's getting double and she's not on wardwood. Speaking of wardwood, if the spirits are on one, Sanaki's damage goes from 3HKOing and not doubling to "why even bother?".

In 4-E-5 Ashera can actually OHKO Sanaki with her single target physical attack (apparently she has like 58 att) until she's about level 12, and that's WITH the rudol gem factored in. The magic attack actually OHKOs her until about level 10. And of course Sanaki's damage to the auras at this point is pointless.

Oliver's combat is fucking terrible, but at least he has a jacked up staff rank and it means that Micaiah doesn't need to spam fortify every other turn (which everyone seems to forget only has 5 uses). Yeah, we won't need that much healing if we field royals + top tiers, but at that point there's no point in even fielding sanaki either.

The difference between Oliver and Sanaki is that Oliver doesn't require me to fly through hoops ala superman 64 style in order to be useful. Granted, his usefulness is limited (there's only so much healing in 4-E can do), but at least he doesn't drag the team down with hsi suck and fail and doesn't require me to make walls of meat for him.

"hur dur samsh is bad ats strategy he cant wall sanaki"

The reason why it's stupid to wall in Sanaki is because she gets OHKO'd and only 2HKOs in return at a time where I have tons of units who can actually 1RKO. This isn't part 1 where Micaiah gets OHKO'd and only 2HKOs in return (ignoring armors), because her offense is actually better than most other DB units and it's worth using Micaiah's potshots.

You can't just blatantly ignore Sanaki's terrible durability. It's a flaw that has to be considered, not handwaved because you're lolicons I'm bad at strategy. I don't see anyone trying to handwave stuff like Shinon's inability to counter 1-range effectively, or laguz transformation gauge, etc., even though with proper "strategy" those flaws may as well not exist either. Why does Sanaki get special treatment and not those units?

[Narga_Rocks]

"but siege tome", except she still does squat. The dragons reach up to 14 AS, so Sanaki with purge, the LIGHTEST siege tome, doesn't double them until level 13. She's not reaching that level without feeding kills to her, since potshotting doesn't involve "let's feed Sanaki a kill every turn". Using Ena to give her +5 str is retarded too. hey guys, let's use ena so she can give a single unit +5 str because that unit's too much of a nub to double anything otherwise, instead of putting ena on the frontlines so everyone on my team gets +5 str (10 more damage since everyone that isn't sanaki doubles) and, for most units, a higher mastery proc rate. Not to mention that Ena can fill a chokepoint because the dragons don't attack her (or Kurth/Reyson for that matter).

So, let's see. Are you suggesting that you'll actually be able to use all 8 of Ena's blood tide squares each turn and Sanaki can never use one? Remember, Ena can move. The 4 squares before she moves are probably completely useless for anyone not Sanaki since it is likely that none of them are within 2 range of an enemy. That's already good enough. But if that's not enough for you, Ena moves somewhere and you'll probably get 3 blood tides at best within 2 squares. Sanaki can use the 4th. See, when you don't think of details like this, we start suggesting that you suck with characters you hate.

by 4-E-4 she's not even worth bothering with, since the enemies have a ton of res, and she might actually die on us if she's not on wardwood, especially if all the exp she got was from potshotting. She needs to be level 12 to not get doubled by the 30 AS spirits, which is laughable because the wind ones have 39 att, which means they're like 3-rounding her if she's getting double and she's not on wardwood. Speaking of wardwood, if the spirits are on one, Sanaki's damage goes from 3HKOing and not doubling to "why even bother?".

I must ask you why, if Sanaki can stand on wardwood and attack spirits to allow your units to ORKO things that they normally wouldn't (+15 def cover tiles say hello to your units), you wouldn't stick her on wardwood. And why would you choose to attack a spirit on wardwood with her? Are you suggesting that they are all on wardwood, or that you enjoy employing stupid tactics to make Sanaki look bad? Remember, the spirits on wardwood are easily ORKOd by physical units with 34 AS and units with brave weapons. There isn't much point. Except wait, Sanaki might actually be strong enough with Cymbeline to allow some units to OHKO a unit on wardwood rather than ORKO, thus they don't take a counter. And wouldn't you know it, every single wardwood tile is within 2 squares of another. Looks like she can use Cymbeline and still stand on wardwood, rather than have to use a ranged tome in order to stay on wardwood.

In 4-E-5 Ashera can actually OHKO Sanaki with her single target physical attack (apparently she has like 58 att) until she's about level 12, and that's WITH the rudol gem factored in.

If only you could explain to me just why Ashera is still alive on turn 4 enemy phase. Are you seriously saying you won't finish until turn 5? You might as well just wave the white flag on our claim that you are a sub-average tactician.

The magic attack actually OHKOs her until about level 10. And of course Sanaki's damage to the auras at this point is pointless.

Sanaki does 16 damage to them at base. Dropping them to 74 hp. If you don't think that's useful I don't know what to tell you. Elincia, by the way, with 30 str and Nasir and one blood tide does 80 damage. 29 str does 76 damage. That's already one way to kill an aura. This way Elincia doesn't need two blood tides (she's one of the few that can ORKO an aura with just dragon skills to help. Boyd is the other. Nolan may not reach 40 str and you don't give him fire/water/dark support anyway if you are giving him to Zihark.) Or she could just use a ranged tome (with Nasir) to attack one of the spirits and allow another unit to ORKO if they don't already. And if you want to whine about using Nasir, remember our discussion about 8 squares of white pool that somehow need to all be taken for Sanaki to not be able to use him?

And why isn't Sanaki on a wardwood at the end of turn 2 (if you don't have a good enough team to just 2 turn the chapter anyway)? Does Ashera really have 66 mt with the single target magical attack? Gareth has 82 hp and 18 res. With +7 from ward/pure water I know he lives. 82/25. Doubled. 66 mt kills (just like base Sanaki). Since I know he lives, what makes you think Sanaki will die? Ashera has 28 speed with her single target attacks, so Sanaki only needs level 7 to not be doubled. Trading may be necessary if you used her to attack a spirit or an aura, of course, since she doesn't have 5 str until level 9 so Cymbeline could get her doubled. Of course, since you have 3 dragon skills going around that would all save her from being doubled at level 7 even with Cymbeline equipped and Nasir would save her at base, chances are one of the tiles that can't be used to attack an aura could be on wardwood. Or you could just trade to wind to prevent AS loss.

Not to mention, what's the point of Oliver in this chapter anyway? Might as well deploy neither.

"hur dur samsh is bad ats strategy he cant wall sanaki"

Again with the strawmans. Most of the time Sanaki is kept safe without walling. Like take 4-3 for example. Why on earth would you need 3 units to guard her? As you pointed out, the enemies have 2 move. Have her attack something, have another unit KO it now (since it couldn't ORKO before she attacked) and there you go! She's safe. No walling. She helped, and something died because of her that wouldn't otherwise without a Mastery or something procing.

You can't just blatantly ignore Sanaki's terrible durability. It's a flaw that has to be considered, not handwaved because you're lolicons I'm bad at strategy.

But you are bad at strategy if you think walling is the only way to keep her alive. I don't think you can't wall Sanaki. I just think you can't figure out how to make use of her without walling, which means you are bad at using her. This is, sadly, another example of you either misinterpreting or misrepresenting the argument. One means you are dense, the other means you are a jerk who doesn't believe in honest discussion of characters. Pick your poison.

Also,

and the worst outcome with her in a chapter is that she gets held back because you can't adequately protect her.

Doesn't sound like ignoring if you ask me. She can only be used as long as she can be efficiently used. If you can't attack the enemies you want to attack with your other units and bring Sanaki forward to help out, then she hangs back a turn and either uses a siege tome or doesn't do anything. She's not amazing because you have to constantly pay attention to her survivability and you can't always use her to attack. But that's more than Oliver can do.

I don't see anyone trying to handwave stuff like Shinon's inability to counter 1-range effectively, or laguz transformation gauge, etc., even though with proper "strategy" those flaws may as well not exist either. Why does Sanaki get special treatment and not those units?

You can't ignore his lack of 1-range. It is simply there. You can be glad for his help against 1-2 range enemies that weren't countered on enemy phase, but you can't ignore his bad 1 range. Just like you can't ignore that Sanaki doesn't get to attack on some turns. Same with transform gauge. It's there, you make accommodations. These accommodations mean that laguz won't suddenly untransform on enemy phase and die or something stupid, but they still don't contribute as much as they could. These strategies mean that those things don't hurt them. But at the same time, the strategies don't mean that you can ignore the flaws. Shinon's lack of 1 range never hurts us because we don't let him get attacked on enemy phase. But the fact that he can't attack well on enemy phase at all limits his contribution to the team. You are the only one that tries to handwave things. We give explanations to what something means, and analyze what you can do despite the flaws and how much of a contribution a unit can make. You say loldurability and employ bad strategy and think it's an argument that prevents a character from doing anything of meaning.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong, there are ALWAYS exceptions to any rule in fire emblem debating.

Ignoring the fact that I'm wrong, I'm right?

[Anouleth]

Which makes them easy to kill.

You only need liek 26 AS and low 40s att to kill them, which means anyone that has a reasonable chance to be fielded (i.e. most mid tiers) will 1RKO anyway. Those that can't are units like Zihark who can pick up a killer weapon, or are people like Haar who doesn't even need to make a wall for sanaki; he just flies into the middle of the enemies and lols @ them trying to damage him (not to mention he doubles most of them anyway). Any lance user can use the horseslayer for easy OHKOs too.

Using Sanaki here makes it easier to feed kills to low tier units that probably aren't even fielded.

Even if you don't want to make a wall for Sanaki, you are GOING to make a wall, since you have other weak units like Leanne and Micaiah and Sothe (if he's underlevelled). For all that Sanaki's contribution isn't much, it's still better than Oliver's not existing at all. As for your bullshit about 'everyone's 1-rounding and never dying' let's look at Zihark with a Killing Edge, since you suggested it.

20/15/00 Zihark, A Earth w/ Killing Edge

37HP 29ATK 30AS 60CRIT 121AVO 16DEF 15RES

Paladins have 43-46HP and 20-21DEF, so Zihark needs to crit twice on every attack in order to 1-round. And that's a character you consider Top Tier, so I can't imagine there will be nobody at all around that doesn't care for Sanaki's damage.

And there will be bad characters lying around. You can have Sanaki 2HKO with a crowned Sigrun or Tanith, or Sothe, Jill (who doesn't even double all the Paladins if she's still 2nd tier), or Micaiah.

4-3 requires that we have every single tanky unit on the team to be out on their own soloing a part of the map, since this is not a normal map where enemies have 7 move and we can have 5+ enemies suicide into someone every turn. These scrubs have like 2 move, which means only 2-3 will suicide into someone a turn. Which means I don't want to have 3+ tanks sitting around Sanaki just so she can do a single potshot that won't even kill her enemy unless she flare's, because without a wall of meat she dies.

Not really. When everything has 2 move, Sanaki needs at most one unit to shield her.

4-E-1 is a horrible chapter for her too because the generals have lots of att, which means they'll OHKO her (the LOWEST att general in 4-E-1 is a 41 att short spear. The NEXT lowest is 43. some even reach 50), so we can't just go "dur forge a tome for her because she's a nub and Cymbaline is still weighing her down", they're OHKOing her anyway. I recall a lot of wardwoods in this chapter too, which really sucks because now with Cymabline she's like 3-4HKOing and not doubling, and at this point I may as well not even field her. Also, by this point Flare is probably not OHKOing anymore even with Cymbaline, because Flare is a nubass mastery.

How about lOliver's performance? Sanaki might be OHKOed by most enemies unless she sits on a Cover tile or something, but Oliver is getting 1-rounded by everything on the map.

4-E-2 is even worse, since it's an open field, so have fun at making walls for her without slowing the team down, since she needs to be completely surrounded and still can't do anything if 2-range enemies can reach her. Considering basically everything can OHKO or one round her except halbs, even if she's using a forged tome so she doesn't lose AS, that's hilarious.

OH NOES bad performance in 4-E-2! After all, it's not like it's only 1-turn long and the only thing that the people on the lower side need to do is kill Levail, which she does better than Oliver.

4-E-3 is even worse than 4-E-2, believe it or not, because red dragons have like 58 att, so Sanaki ON COVER doesn't stop getting OHKO'd until level 12 (she can stop getting OHKO'd earlier if she supports, but, who wants light at this point in the game?). White dragons actually 2HKO her if she's not on wardwood until she's like level 18, because her base HP is that bad. Meat shields obviously wont' save her anymore.

She could support Micaiah. It's a fast support, they're likely to be sitting next to each other anyway since they're both super-frail. I don't see why Micaiah would want to stay with that failure Sothe. She could support Leanne too, although their support isn't quite as fast. And if she really cares about her durability, she can Nosferatu tank. Or stand next to Kurth.

"but siege tome", except she still does squat. The dragons reach up to 14 AS, so Sanaki with purge, the LIGHTEST siege tome, doesn't double them until level 13. She's not reaching that level without feeding kills to her, since potshotting doesn't involve "let's feed Sanaki a kill every turn". Using Ena to give her +5 str is retarded too. hey guys, let's use ena so she can give a single unit +5 str because that unit's too much of a nub to double anything otherwise, instead of putting ena on the frontlines so everyone on my team gets +5 str (10 more damage since everyone that isn't sanaki doubles) and, for most units, a higher mastery proc rate. Not to mention that Ena can fill a chokepoint because the dragons don't attack her (or Kurth/Reyson for that matter).

Ena has 4 spaces next to her. They're not all going to be taken, and Sanaki can pick whichever one is free since she has effectively infinite range. And Sanaki gets the higher proc rate too.

by 4-E-4 she's not even worth bothering with, since the enemies have a ton of res, and she might actually die on us if she's not on wardwood, especially if all the exp she got was from potshotting. She needs to be level 12 to not get doubled by the 30 AS spirits, which is laughable because the wind ones have 39 att, which means they're like 3-rounding her if she's getting double and she's not on wardwood. Speaking of wardwood, if the spirits are on one, Sanaki's damage goes from 3HKOing and not doubling to "why even bother?".

Oliver can die too if he's not on Wardwood. He needs to be level... oh, he never ever stops getting doubled by 30 AS Spirits, ever, and his RES is probably lower than Sanaki's, especially since he won't have any supports. And Sanaki never needs to attack a Wardwood Spirit, since the Spirits all try to stay on Cover tiles.

In 4-E-5 Ashera can actually OHKO Sanaki with her single target physical attack (apparently she has like 58 att) until she's about level 12, and that's WITH the rudol gem factored in. The magic attack actually OHKOs her until about level 10. And of course Sanaki's damage to the auras at this point is pointless.

Sanaki can have a support, and can sit on a Cover tile. There are plenty lying around. Sanaki's damage isn't 'pointless' either. Level 40 Giffca with Parity does 72 damage to a cover Aura. Level 10 Sanaki does 21 with Cymbeline.

Oliver's combat is fucking terrible, but at least he has a jacked up staff rank and it means that Micaiah doesn't need to spam fortify every other turn (which everyone seems to forget only has 5 uses). Yeah, we won't need that much healing if we field royals + top tiers, but at that point there's no point in even fielding sanaki either.

Sanaki is free, and she does damage and helps kill things, and her durability issues can be worked around if you have half a brain. So there is a point in fielding her. And you forget that we have better healers that are given to us in Part 4 basically free of charge - Elincia and Bastian, so either we field Oliver instead of one of the two, in which case he's a net negative, or we field Oliver AND these other healers, in which case Oliver is useless since we have plenty of healers.

The difference between Oliver and Sanaki is that Oliver doesn't require me to fly through hoops ala superman 64 style in order to be useful. Granted, his usefulness is limited (there's only so much healing in 4-E can do), but at least he doesn't drag the team down with hsi suck and fail and doesn't require me to make walls of meat for him.

"hur dur samsh is bad ats strategy he cant wall sanaki"

The reason why it's stupid to wall in Sanaki is because she gets OHKO'd and only 2HKOs in return at a time where I have tons of units who can actually 1RKO. This isn't part 1 where Micaiah gets OHKO'd and only 2HKOs in return (ignoring armors), because her offense is actually better than most other DB units and it's worth using Micaiah's potshots.

Nobody is claiming Sanaki > Micaiah. However, if you can wall in and protect Micaiah, and you WILL be walling in and protecting Micaiah and Leanne already in Silver Army, why is it so hard for you to wall in Sanaki? Sanaki certainly isn't contributing much, but she's not contributing nothing, which seems to be what you're saying.

And you say you have tons of units that 1RKO... I'm looking at the tier list now, and I can feel pretty safe saying that everyone below Boyd will have 1RKOing issues, and plenty of people above do too (Nephenee, Oscar). It's conceivable that even Haar could have issues doubling if you crowned him early and he has 26AS.

You can't just blatantly ignore Sanaki's terrible durability. It's a flaw that has to be considered, not handwaved because you're lolicons I'm bad at strategy. I don't see anyone trying to handwave stuff like Shinon's inability to counter 1-range effectively, or laguz transformation gauge, etc., even though with proper "strategy" those flaws may as well not exist either. Why does Sanaki get special treatment and not those units?

And you can't just blatantly ignore that there is never any reason, ever, to use Oliver, since he takes a spot at Endgame and does everything worse than other people. I mean, the only thing you've said in Oliver's defense is lolhehasstaves.

I don't see how I've ignored Sanaki's durability. I'm not suggesting she go on enemy phase rampages, or that she doesn't need a meatshield. I'm saying that the cost of meatshielding her is extremely minor, since you will already be meatshielding your weaker DB units and Herons and healers.

(If Sanaki's durability wasn't a concern, I could see her somewhere in mid tier, as it is, her durability sucks and she deserves to be somewhere in Low.)