S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Dat Nick]

20/15 Florina ever existing is one thing.

By CoD is another.

On ranked is just atrocious.

[Florete]

20/15 Florina ever existing is one thing.

By CoD is another.

On ranked is just atrocious.

CATS was replying to Inui's claim of having Oswin higher than 20/10 by CoD with random units given the same leveling. The fact that Florina beats him just shows how Oswin really isn't optimal deployment on CoD.

EDIT: Wow typos.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Don Draper]

20/15 Florina ever existing is one thing.

By CoD is another.

On ranked is just atrocious.

Balcerzak had a 20/13 Florina by VoD on his ranked playthrough. Its perfectly possible for 20/15 Florina to exist on ranked.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=18684&st=40

Although 20/15 CoD is pushing it a bit too far.

[CATS]

How many units can you deploy there?

I don't remember, but I know it's not more than 12, so probably not enough for Oswin to make the cut.

[Balcerzak]

Cog of Destiny? That lets you have 10 units, including Hector but not including Vaida.

[Inui]

Out of ten units, the average Oswin is probably at the bottom of the ten in terms of optimal deployment. His only issue is the Valks, and those are a huge issue for many units, but Oswin has h4x supports and huge HP/Res to deal with that.

Again, people overhype the Experience rank here.......

[Colonel M]

Oswin's only good (read: viable) support looks like Hector to me. Even getting it to a B is a pain in the ass since it's a +2. Everything else is -+2 (Matthew is 5) or Serra's 10+1. Unless he's running around with a bunch of Cs...

Edited March 23, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Florete]

Out of ten units, the average Oswin is probably at the bottom of the ten in terms of optimal deployment. His only issue is the Valks, and those are a huge issue for many units, but Oswin has h4x supports and huge HP/Res to deal with that.

Again, people overhype the Experience rank here.......

What? When did anyone even bring up the Experience rank? And haven't your "strategies" for making it less of a hassle than claimed to be been shot down more than once anyway?

[Inui]

What? When did anyone even bring up the Experience rank? And haven't your "strategies" for making it less of a hassle than claimed to be been shot down more than once anyway?

Oswin not being at a high level in CoD given his initial lead = Experience rank stuff.

No, they haven't. In fact, the latest S rank logs showed just how much of a joke the rankings can be. Experience was overkilled and so was Funds even with recruiting Farina, rofl. Affording to promote Assassins and abuse 32x with saved turns is very legit.

Oswin's only good (read: viable) support looks like Hector to me. Even getting it to a B is a pain in the ass since it's a +2. Everything else is -+2 (Matthew is 5) or Serra's 10+1. Unless he's running around with a bunch of Cs...

We're talking about CoD here, brah. That's super late into the game. Why he can't have some supports by then is beyond me. Hector's an easy one, and then C's and B's with a few other units are possible. Are you telling me stuff like Priscilla x Oswin happens 0% of the time or something? No unit is used every single time no matter what...except Hector.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Inui

[CATS]

Out of ten units, the average Oswin is probably at the bottom of the ten in terms of optimal deployment. His only issue is the Valks, and those are a huge issue for many units, but Oswin has h4x supports and huge HP/Res to deal with that.

Valkyries are the only issue for many units on the map, and they're a bigger issue for Oswin than they are for most people. Killing the other promoted magic enemies is extremely easy because they're weighed down to single-digit AS, and then all unpromoted enemies are a joke by this point. If Oswin brought something to the table here in exchange for subpar perfomrance against valks, you could make a case for him, but he doesn't. Instead, he just brings more negatives to the table (5 move, bad offense vs the few physical promoted enemies on the map, etc).

Supports aren't doing much for him. Hector support is wanted by alot of units and Oswin has a very weak claim to it. Oswin's biggest flaws are mobility and AS, which aren't affected by supports. Units like Florina and Eliwood can support Hector to get stat bonuses which are much more useful than Oswin getting more Def on top of the excess that he already has in that stat. And Oswin's support with Hector isn't notably fast, either. It's over 100 turns to A rank.

Oswin not being at a high level in CoD given his initial lead = Experience rank stuff.

The existence of Exp rank just gives more of a reason to close the initial level gap between Oswin and other units. Keeping it open means feeding more kills to Oswin than you are to the others on your team, when he's already gaining less Exp per kill than they are, which is a strong negative to the Exp rank. The fact that it's possible to raise Oswin to 20/20 and still S Rank is meaningless; you can do the same for any unit if you base your entire playstyle around favoring them.

No unit is used every single time no matter what...except Hector.

Because?

[Life]

We're talking about CoD here, brah. That's super late into the game. Why he can't have some supports by then is beyond me. Hector's an easy one, and then C's and B's with a few other units are possible. Are you telling me stuff like Priscilla x Oswin happens 0% of the time or something? No unit is used every single time no matter what...except Hector.

To be brutally honest, I am saying that Prissy x Oswin happens 0% of the time. Let's look at other people who Prissy can support.

Prissy x Erk - Starts at the same time as Oswin but Erk has a small move advantage over Oswin. He also has a 15 +3 support with her which is usually better than 0 +2 unless you're bad at math. Erk gets C Prissy in 22 turns and then a B in an additional 27 turns. Oswin gets C Prissy in 41 turns, 8 turns before Erk nails the B. Let's check out the benefits:

ThunderxWind (Erk) is +1 Att, +1 Def, +5 Hit, +10 Crit and +10 Crit Evade. Considering that level 14 Erk!Thunder has 10 Crit and 18 Mt during Kinship's Bond, this support ups his Crit to 20 and gives him 19 Att vs. pathetic Res counts of like 4. He's doing about 15 damage a pop and doubling while 17 Oswin!Steel Lance has 26 Att vs. significantly higher Def numbers and fails to double, unlike Erk. The AnimaxWind (Oswin) support of +1 Att, +2 Hit, +2 Crit and +5 Crit Evade is just... meh when compared to Erk's.

Raven x Prissy - No niceboat jokes, please. This support is also miles faster than Prissy x Oswin. Even though IcexWind is terrible, Prissy gains no better bonuses from Oswin while Raven gets a working support himself. Granted, Raven's gonna want B Prissy because A Lucius is a better support and he has no other options for supports.

Prissy x Guy - Much better support for Prissy than Oswin because she offers Guy something that he wants (full Crit) while Oswin doesn't get what he wants from her (Hit). It's also 0 +2 and is just as fast (or slow if you want to put it that way) as Oswin x Prissy even though Guy has a slight move advantage on Oswin.

Sain x Prissy - Same speed as Oswin x Prissy but WindxWind benefits Sain more than WindxAnima benefits Oswin (Sain gets 1+ Att and +5 Crit for every support level). Sain also destroys Oswin in mobility so waiting about 2 chapters to start supporting Prissy will start paying itself off once Sain gets that first Att and Crit boost.

Heath x Prissy - If you're waiting this long for Prissy to support someone, you're doing it wrong. However, I've already mentioned the perks of WindxThunder (see Erk) and Heath likes the full Crit from this support. That being said, it's more likely to see Nancy Pelosi snort cocaine off Newt Gingrich's cock than it is to witness Heath profess his love towards the red haired girl, the little cunt that he is.

Point is that Oswin is Prissy's 5th best support out of 6. It's too bad that only numbers 1 and 2 will enjoy the benefits of this support. As for Oswin's other supports, the only way they'd be ever be considered "h4x" is if the movie Idiocracy came true (people water plants with energy drinks). Serra x Oswin is garbage, Hector would rather B Matt or Lyn (both are faster than Oswin's support and give Hector full Crit), Dorcas has a very good chance of not getting played lategame and even if he did, he'd want B Oswin at best (A Bartre for him and I honestly don't think I'm pushing the envelope by saying that Dorcas x Geitz is much better than Dorcas x Oswin) and Matthew's off stealing shit and won't be guaranteed to be in range of Oswin to give the bonuses, never mind stand beside him and get the actual support.

Claiming that you're overestimating how easy it is to get supports is like pointing out that a kid in a wheelchair can't run a marathon. It's obvious that both statements are true (his inability to walk and your bullshitting of supports) but neither of you really give a fuck about what anyone says. Portsman, Colonel and I have all pointed out numerous times that you constantly inflate levels and supports but you somehow don't seem to listen.

PS: In case you couldn't tell, I hate Heath.

EDIT: Thanks Narga.

Edited March 23, 2010 by Admiral Lifey Crunch

[Inui]

Portsman, Colonel and I have all pointed out numerous times that you constantly inflate levels and supports but you somehow don't seem to listen.

That is because I S rank anyways.

[dondon151]

Proof or it's BS.

[Colonel M]

Even if you can get Ozzy to whatever, he's still pretty low priority in CoD. Anyone with Mov, a Res stat, and 1- 2 range should be given priority. Units that come to mind are: promoted Eliwood, Sain, Kent, Lowen, Isadora, Marcus, Priscilla, Florina, Fiora, Farina (if you bothered to shell 20K), Heath to some extents, etc. These units, excluding maybe Heath, should be given priority over Oswin. Then we have all of our Magi who can Heal / Barrier, and then any foot Soldier who can 2 Range. Tbh Ozzy being fielded in CoD is pretty low except if you gave him an astronomical amount of levels in comparison to the team.

[Mekkah]

That is because I S rank anyways.

Did you read what CATS posted? It's possible to S-rank while getting any character to 20/20, not just Oswin. Just because you can overlevel him doesn't make it a viable assumption that he will be overleveled. If you do, you have to compare him to other overleveled dudes like the 20/15 Florina he posted.

[Inui]

I guess that makes sense...

@Colonel M: wtf @ listing Heath, Marcus, and whatever

CoD isn't a chapter where huge Mov is super important

[Colonel M]

@Colonel M: wtf @ listing Heath, Marcus, and whatever

CoD isn't a chapter where huge Mov is super important

Yes it is.

Don't look at the enemies, just look at the map in general

To even say that Movement isn't super important is, rather, a huge joke. You don't want to spend all night on this chapter, you want it done and you want it done fast. Here are your goals:

- Hammerne

- Recruiting Vaida by Turn 8

We also need to make sure that we try not to trigger reinforcements to the best of our capabilities. With movement, we can reach the enemies much faster. You also need to reach the Hammerne village ASAP. Heath probably isn't the greatest of units to field, but the flight ordeal helps his case out a lot. Marcus also starts with a healthy amount of Res: 8, and a Level 5 has about 9. It's nothing spectacular, but it helps. If you're mobile and have a decent amount of Res, chances are I'd field you earlier than Oswin, which his 5 Mov isn't going to reach the enemies for about a turn or two.

If you also look at what Balcerzak fielded:

Hector, Ninian, Priscilla, Serra, Florina, Farina, Fiora, Pent, Louise, Geitz

Which sounds about what I would field. Maybe not so much Louise, but I could field one of the Cavs over that. I don't see Oswin throwing out any of these guys either.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Tangerine]

This thread looked more interesting when it was a debate about debating and posting tier lists. There should be a tier list poster tier list, that would be a fun read.

[Inui]

Colonel, the map may be big, but it's way too dangerous to just rush forward. Status staves and dangerous enemies are everywhere. Kent and Sain are likely inching forward with their 6 Mov partners like Lyn or Serra or something and everyone MUST be kept in range of someone that has Restore. Movement is NOT a big deal on CoD. It's a very defensive chapter. Sure, you have to get to that village, but two units can just do that like Fiora/Florina while Oswin still has plenty of stuff to do. Did you know his Res is extremely good after promotion? It's way better than Marcus's and he rapes him in every stat but Skl and Lck by the time CoD happens. He should even be faster by then.

I'd much rather use Oswin than Geitz in CoD and not recruiting Farina is better than recruiting her.

[Dat Nick]

Life, you were even being nice and didn't point out that not only is the Pris/Oswin support slow as shit (0+2 wtf), there's also a 3 move disparity. Don't exactly care that it has availability going for it, it's never happening, ever.

WRT to this shit about supports, I think something needs to be clarified because I don't think anybody here needs to be hearing about unrealistic shit like Oswin/Pris supports.

post

All of this is for Efficiency, too. The list of viable supports shrinks even further on ranked. There's a load of other posts on supports that I can find for you if you want.

TYTE, if you're going to assume supports from now on have actual reasoning for it besides "BUT I DID IT AND STILL S RANKED"

[Colonel M]

You can swap Geitz for any unit with 2 range and 6 Mov. And yes, despite Farina costing 20K, if you have her I'd field her. There's also Pure Water, which at least will help out with taking these guys on. Oh, and the higher movement units can actually be seen as a benefit for the status staves. It just means that they get used up faster. You still have your Pent | Serra | Priscilla at ready with Restore Staves, and usually the status staves (IIRC) are the last action taken. I don't see any benefit of fielding Oswin other than the fact that he has good Res, and that claim is "meh" when you consider 5 Mov isn't getting us anywhere fast.

Here's what you have. 10 Slots. Florina and Fiora are practically guaranteed. Then we have Serra, Priscilla, and Pent. 5 units. And we still haven't run down others like Eliwood who has the same Res (maybe a little more) but more Movement, Lowen with a healthy amount of HP | Res anyway, and not to mention okay Avoid ratios. He can edge out on being doubled by some of the Valks too. Kent and Sain also aren't doubled by Valks for the most part (21 AS is probably the only one that might get them), they support each other obviously, and a 20/1 Sain with B Kent probably comes close to cleaning them in one shot (or missing by a hair). Any one of Lucius | Canas | Erk can also be fielded with benefit, especially Canas since you can Nosferatu | Luna through the fields with Canas, auto-C Staves for Lucius, and Erk is decent with his Pent or Priscilla support. Hell Raven isn't a bad choice: he has 51 Base Avoid and is never doubled by Valks. He can even come close to doubling the other ones. Not with a Hand Axe unfortunately (you'll need a Body Ring to get close). Hawkeye isn't wtfterrible with 50 HP | 10 Res and backed by 37% Crit for a Hand Axe toss. Harken has 42 HP | 11 Res | 48 Avoid. There's an endless list of units that I can consider looking at twice, even thrice before I look at Oswin.

[Inui]

TYTE, if you're going to assume supports from now on have actual reasoning for it besides "BUT I DID IT AND STILL S RANKED"

Scr00b, why can't you and others understand anything?

Do all of Priscilla's partners have a 100% chance of being in play? No, they don't. Plenty of people may play the game and go for S ranks without any top tiers at all (that's what I like doing) or just not use Erk. Whatever, you should get the point. You assuming that all of Priscilla's partners are in play 100% of the time is much dumber than me assuming Oswin can snag a C or B with her sometimes.

You can swap Geitz for any unit with 2 range and 6 Mov.

And that unit will be less durable than Oswin. Also, you're really going to hype the shit out of a 1 Mov difference? Okay, what if Oswin got the Boots? Then he has 7 Mov. Oswin and Hector are pretty much the only choices that aren't retarded. I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble seeing how 1 Mov trumps significantly more durability on a map where enemies all come to you.

I don't see any benefit of fielding Oswin other than the fact that he has good Res, and that claim is "meh" when you consider 5 Mov isn't getting us anywhere fast.

Good Res isn't the only other benefit. How about killing everything in two hits with good 1~2 range and being able to one-shot enemies with stronger weapons?

6 Mov is getting you somewhere much faster? Really? And what if Oswin got the Boots? He's the #1 or #2 candidate for them, so he should be getting them about half the time if he's in play.

Here's what you have. 10 Slots. Florina and Fiora are practically guaranteed. Then we have Serra, Priscilla, and Pent. 5 units. And we still haven't run down others like Eliwood who has the same Res (maybe a little more) but more Movement, Lowen with a healthy amount of HP | Res anyway, and not to mention okay Avoid ratios. He can edge out on being doubled by some of the Valks too. Kent and Sain also aren't doubled by Valks for the most part (21 AS is probably the only one that might get them), they support each other obviously, and a 20/1 Sain with B Kent probably comes close to cleaning them in one shot (or missing by a hair). Any one of Lucius | Canas | Erk can also be fielded with benefit, especially Canas since you can Nosferatu | Luna through the fields with Canas, auto-C Staves for Lucius, and Erk is decent with his Pent or Priscilla support. Hell Raven isn't a bad choice: he has 51 Base Avoid and is never doubled by Valks. He can even come close to doubling the other ones. Not with a Hand Axe unfortunately (you'll need a Body Ring to get close). Hawkeye isn't wtfterrible with 50 HP | 10 Res and backed by 37% Crit for a Hand Axe toss. Harken has 42 HP | 11 Res | 48 Avoid. There's an endless list of units that I can consider looking at twice, even thrice before I look at Oswin.

lol @ units like Harken and Hawkeye that Oswin slaughters in durability just because they have 1 more Mov

The problem here is that you're assuming Florina and Fiora are in play 100% of the time, as well as those other units. That is quite flawed. If only the best of the best are in play, then every other unit below the unit slot amounts for chapters should be instantly placed into graveyard tier and ignored for eternity.

You're looking at the situation with Osw1n h8. I see a 20/8+ unit with god tier durability and good 1~2 range that gets the Boots half the time. You see some unit you dropped because of a 1 Mov gap somehow being considered instant-failure compared to much better stats. Oswin is extremely easy to level up, easily the best candidate for the first Knight Crest, and has the best durability in the game.

[Florete]

Scr00b, why can't you and others understand anything?

Or perhaps it's you who is lacking understanding.

Do all of Priscilla's partners have a 100% chance of being in play? No, they don't. Plenty of people may play the game and go for S ranks without any top tiers at all (that's what I like doing) or just not use Erk. Whatever, you should get the point. You assuming that all of Priscilla's partners are in play 100% of the time is much dumber than me assuming Oswin can snag a C or B with her sometimes.

Oswin is Priscilla's 6th best choice out of 7, and arguably not even that much better than #7 (Life Admiral left out Lucius). Erk doesn't need to be in play 100% of the time. We need two of Raven/Erk/Guy/Sain/Lucius for Oswin to not be an optimal choice and then Heath still possibly adds a cost for Oswin. It's not like these are all Bottom tiers either.

Besides, how is a C Priscilla even going to help Oswin? Hooray 1 atk, 2 hit, 2 avoid, 2 crit, and 5 dodge?

Okay, what if Oswin got the Boots? Then he has 7 Mov. Oswin and Hector are pretty much the only choices that aren't retarded.

I wouldn't say that. I often give mine to a flier to extend possible Rescue chains. The fact that you get the Boots just before Night of Farewells is pretty cool as well.

Good Res isn't the only other benefit. How about killing everything in two hits with good 1~2 range and being able to one-shot enemies with stronger weapons?

Didn't CATS point out that any other unit given similar treatment could do the same, or are you opting to ignore one of the Gods of FE debating this time around for your own convenience?

The problem here is that you're assuming Florina and Fiora are in play 100% of the time, as well as those other units. That is quite flawed. If only the best of the best are in play, then every other unit below the unit slot amounts for chapters should be instantly placed into graveyard tier and ignored for eternity.

Having a flier in play is a very good idea in the first place, so I'd say it's very likely that either Fiora or Florina are in play considering they are the best choices.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Interceptor]

Do all of Priscilla's partners have a 100% chance of being in play? No, they don't. Plenty of people may play the game and go for S ranks without any top tiers at all (that's what I like doing) or just not use Erk. Whatever, you should get the point. You assuming that all of Priscilla's partners are in play 100% of the time is much dumber than me assuming Oswin can snag a C or B with her sometimes.

Did this tier list suddenly turn into a psychology experiment when I wasn't looking? *looks at OP* Nope, still looks like units that are better for S-ranking are ranked higher.

Even if you were to ignore that, what sort of chance does this chain of events even have to happen in the first place? Have a sense of perspective as to what this means for Oswin's overall game. Just to throw something in the mix for you to analyze with your two years of tennis experience, Oswin has a 4% chance to get screwed out of RES for nine consecutive levels. This seems like an event that's approximately on the same order of magnitude as the chance of a healer supporting a sixth to seventh string dumbshit support partner that can't keep up with her in the first place.

[Inui]

Or perhaps it's you who is lacking understanding.

Nope.

Oswin is Priscilla's 6th best choice out of 7, and arguably not even that much better than #7 (Life Admiral left out Lucius). Erk doesn't need to be in play 100% of the time. We need two of Raven/Erk/Guy/Sain/Lucius for Oswin to not be an optimal choice and then Heath still possibly adds a cost for Oswin. It's not like these are all Bottom tiers either.

Not really, lol. It's more optimal and efficient and easier to get C's in this game and not worry about building up A's. Oswin being able to get a C with Priscilla is quite possible. Even a C with Serra is totally viable. Just assuming X unit is always in play and when in play always supports X unit is wrong. Variety matters since no players do the same thing every single time.

Besides, how is a C Priscilla even going to help Oswin? Hooray 1 atk, 2 hit, 2 avoid, 2 crit, and 5 dodge?

It helps them both on top of other things. With the two RN system, 2 Hit and 2 Avoid is more than 2. 5 Crit Evd = less concern for Luna. In fact, Oswin always gets this bonus, and then he can not care about Luna enemies. Priscilla wants the Atk and Crit. That 1 Atk can let Oswin OHKO things.

I wouldn't say that. I often give mine to a flier to extend possible Rescue chains. The fact that you get the Boots just before Night of Farewells is pretty cool as well.

I see. Well, there you have it. More proof that people play this game extremely differently in many cases. Assuming only one way is optimal is impossible and dumb. If I S rank with a 20/10+ Oswin in CoD, what's the big deal? I like having a unit with a 0% chance of death in all situations ever that ORKOs nearly everything after promotion. It's like having a Marcus in the midgame if you promote Oswin quickly. Any Experience rank issues I have are easily remedied with 32x, throwing a very low level Guy/Raven down south in Crazed Beast, spamming staves, etc.

Didn't CATS point out that any other unit given similar treatment could do the same, or are you opting to ignore one of the Gods of FE debating this time around for your own convenience?

Certainly, but Oswin has a natural level lead on them. He starts at level 9 in Chapter 12. That's pretty crazy. Even if Florina was leveled in LHM, she's not going to be level 9, which means Oswin will have quite the big lead on her initially. His awesome durability makes him a top choice for enemy phase baiting, so he continues to easily gain EXP.

Having a flier in play is a very good idea in the first place, so I'd say it's very likely that either Fiora or Florina are in play considering they are the best choices.

Indeed, it's likely. It's not guaranteed, however. I prefer to avoid every flier in this game except sometimes Farina. I like doing most of my offense on the enemy phase and playing it safe, so defensive juggernauts are better for me and get the job of S ranking done more easily for me.