S Rank Tier List for FE7

[Life]

Please read every post from here to the present again. For the record, I don't actually care whether or not you move him above Fiora (which I know means it won't happen), but to say what you're saying is ridiculous and just sounds like extreme bias. If you can't make a real case against him, cut the crap.

It doesn't sound like extreme bias. It IS extreme bias. Or have the words "Heath can FOAD for all I care" not been visible at all?

Look. The guy arrives later than Fiora at a lower level. With 9 Spd (and 9 Con). Sure he's got 32 HP and 11 Def but level 11 Fiora is basically sitting at 24 HP, 7 Def and 9 Res. For someone to 2RKO her, she's gotta be facing 19 Att after WTD. During Heath's join chapter, Fiora's a borderline 2RKO. OK. But for the purposes of what we want (flying utility), she's fine. Didn't dondon prove that base level Thany was still your third best until in Chapter 14 in FE6? When it comes to flying utility, defensive parameters are moot.

As for offense, Heath's is a joke. He's sporting 9 Spd. During Chapter 22. Hello, Lowen fucking had that at around level 8. That's like around Chapter 17 at worst. Fiora straight up beats the guy since while she can't hit as hard as him, she doubles a lot of shit that he can't (9 AS before the speed loss that comes from anything not Iron or Killer) since if something has 5 AS or lower, it's fucking slow and deserves to be doubled by Oswin, never mind Heath.

This is the whole crux of my argument. You guys are overrating the guy to hell and back when we already have two other fliers who A) can carry everything Heath can (Hawkeye is the exception and Florina can still carry him before promotion, same as Heath), B) have been around for longer and C) are better at offense than Heath. Toss in Vaida who easily covers Heath's position (their stats are pretty similar at that point in time) without spending 10k on a promotion and you want to give this guy a fucking medal? What?

[Florete]

It doesn't sound like extreme bias. It IS extreme bias. Or have the words "Heath can FOAD for all I care" not been visible at all?

Then it's time you realized that and stopped letting it get in the way of logic.

Look. The guy arrives later than Fiora at a lower level. With 9 Spd (and 9 Con). Sure he's got 32 HP and 11 Def but level 11 Fiora is basically sitting at 24 HP, 7 Def and 9 Res. For someone to 2RKO her, she's gotta be facing 19 Att after WTD. During Heath's join chapter, Fiora's a borderline 2RKO. OK. But for the purposes of what we want (flying utility), she's fine. Didn't dondon prove that base level Thany was still your third best until in Chapter 14 in FE6? When it comes to flying utility, defensive parameters are moot.

Let's theory FE here a bit. Base Heath vs. level 11 Fiora defensively, aka the stats you've provided. 19 atk 2HKOs Fiora, 4HKOs Heath. 15 atk 3HKOs Fiora, 8HKOs Heath. That's more than twice as defensive.

Note that base level Thany is in a different game. A game that happens to have much bigger maps. Note that this is also ranked where you want strong fliers. Note that you're also talking about chapter 22, where flying utility means pretty much nothing because there's nothing to fly over. If you're only going to argue flier utility, Heath has more Aid and then his better Defense means even more because he can actually afford to take a hit while Rescuing, at least more often than Fiora.

As for offense, Heath's is a joke. He's sporting 9 Spd. During Chapter 22. Hello, Lowen fucking had that at around level 8. That's like around Chapter 17 at worst. Fiora straight up beats the guy since while she can't hit as hard as him, she doubles a lot of shit that he can't (9 AS before the speed loss that comes from anything not Iron or Killer) since if something has 5 AS or lower, it's fucking slow and deserves to be doubled by Oswin, never mind Heath.

This is ranked. Heath happens to be a unit with great bases for his level but not nearly to the extent of Nino. Given this game's Experience rank, Heath is just about the best unit for Experience feeding based on what the returns will be (A strong flying unit). Heath doesn't take too long to double fairly reliably, and when he does he wipes the floor with Fiora in every map except Crazed Beast and Cog of Destiny. Even a doubling Fiora probably has problems killing (haven't run the numbers, but that Str is nothing amazing), especially considering that doubling usually means she has a weaker weapon.

This is the whole crux of my argument. You guys are overrating the guy to hell and back when we already have two other fliers who A) can carry everything Heath can (Hawkeye is the exception and Florina can still carry him before promotion, same as Heath), B) have been around for longer and C) are better at offense than Heath. Toss in Vaida who easily covers Heath's position (their stats are pretty similar at that point in time) without spending 10k on a promotion and you want to give this guy a fucking medal? What?

Stop saying "overrating." It's damn pathetic, even worse when you add "to hell and back." I suggest one spot higher than you would apparently accept and this is what I get? Cut the shit and get over your goddamn bias, Life. Leave him below Fiora if you really must, I don't care, but cut the shit.

[Anouleth]

I don't really care about Heath vs Fiora. They both have advantages (better stats against better availability), and I'm sure that others could determine much better than me which set of advantages is better.

Look. The guy arrives later than Fiora at a lower level. With 9 Spd (and 9 Con). Sure he's got 32 HP and 11 Def but level 11 Fiora is basically sitting at 24 HP, 7 Def and 9 Res. For someone to 2RKO her, she's gotta be facing 19 Att after WTD. During Heath's join chapter, Fiora's a borderline 2RKO. OK. But for the purposes of what we want (flying utility), she's fine. Didn't dondon prove that base level Thany was still your third best until in Chapter 14 in FE6? When it comes to flying utility, defensive parameters are moot.

This is not FE6 (and you're misquoting dondon. He said Thany was your third best unit in Chapter 14. And he was talking about efficiency). Even if you don't need defensive parameters to still be useful with flight, good combat makes flying much better. Observe Miledy, or Haar, or Cormag, or even the fliers in FE9. Their high durability allows them to dominate the maps that they're in.

Heath's superior combat also allows him to contribute to EXP rank more easily.

As for offense, Heath's is a joke. He's sporting 9 Spd. During Chapter 22. Hello, Lowen fucking had that at around level 8. That's like around Chapter 17 at worst. Fiora straight up beats the guy since while she can't hit as hard as him, she doubles a lot of shit that he can't (9 AS before the speed loss that comes from anything not Iron or Killer) since if something has 5 AS or lower, it's fucking slow and deserves to be doubled by Oswin, never mind Heath.

Heath has far better strength. Against, say, a Wyvern Rider in Chapter 23, Fiora does 5x2 damage to 30+HP. Heath does 9 damage. She has the advantage of ORKOing the Mages with an Iron Lance. He ORKOs the Archers, though.

Once Heath's good speed growth kicks in and he promotes, he can double most unpromoted enemies anyway, and he has enough strength to 2HKO and enough HP/DEF to take a lot of punishment.

This is the whole crux of my argument. You guys are overrating the guy to hell and back when we already have two other fliers who A) can carry everything Heath can (Hawkeye is the exception and Florina can still carry him before promotion, same as Heath), B) have been around for longer and C) are better at offense than Heath. Toss in Vaida who easily covers Heath's position (their stats are pretty similar at that point in time) without spending 10k on a promotion and you want to give this guy a fucking medal? What?

A lot of people in Upper Mid are in the position of having other units who do what they do better. Priscilla/Pent/Serra do staffing far better than Lucius/Canas, for example. Guy is a better swordsperson than Lyn. That doesn't mean they're not useful in their own right, though.

[dondon151]

I want to add that while Heath can be recruited as early as turn 3 in chapter 22, it is to the player's advantage to play out the map completely in ranked play for the huge EXP potential. Heath can definitely gain 3 levels, if not more, in 8 turns, which gets him a point of spd to double slower WKs in chapter 23.

It is quite honestly a blowout from there. Life, why are you so obstinately insisting that Heath is only good for flying utility? His combat is great. He's not quite as good as Miledy, Haar, or Cormag (Cormag is only because FE8 has the Dragon Lance), but he is the best combat flier around until Vaida shows up. And even Vaida is sketchy on ranked due to requiring a Speedwing while Heath can get to like 20/6 or something and dominate just as much as she does.

[Mekkah]

604-607-608.

You: "Eh... Heath. I think a lot of people know my opinion on Heath so come to a consensus and I'll probably agree with it."

rofl, marry me (or at least let Rody take you out to dinner)

Even though I think tiering ranked is stupid since it's more of a set pattern of how to do things rather than a variable playthrough, I'll add that Heath's got to be one of those units you have to rank highly - he helps Tactics and EXP at the same time, and facilitates misc things such as ferrying.

Heath can do fight and flight. That's good.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

So if Heath has good combat after all, shouldn't having that AND flying utility put him above Geitz? Maybe even Harken?

[Anouleth]

So if Heath has good combat after all, shouldn't having that AND flying utility put him above Geitz? Maybe even Harken?

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

[Florete]

rofl, marry me (or at least let Rody take you out to dinner)

Haha, what?

So if Heath has good combat after all, shouldn't having that AND flying utility put him above Geitz? Maybe even Harken?

Let's not get too far ahead of ourselves.

Actually, I think cases could be made for both. Particularly Harken when you consider his availability and the possible issues recruiting him.

[Geriba]

bump

(Edit for mods: this wasn't an empty bump or anything like that; I plan to edit out this post with some substantive discussion once I meander through the entire 37-page epic over the course of the day. As someone on warn alert, hope I didn't break any rules!)

Edited January 14, 2012 by Doomguy

[pikablu]

Sorry to bump this topic but I have three issues with this tier list keeping in mind that this is a ranked playthrough:

1) My number one complaint is Nino being in low, she needs to be put up above Isadora. She is essential to HHM and EHM:

a) Because she comes so late underleveled, she helps get that experience rank up (as she'll be gaining like 80 exp per kill)

b) Incontrovertibly, the best candidate for afa drops (considering she comes so late)

c) Babying the late underleveled characters may be undesirable in other FE's but considering we have ranks to keep in mind here I think that's irrelevant, and she keeps the experience rank up

d) Great growths (her growths > Erk's growths) so with babying (which I'm saying is a good thing on a ranked playthrough because of the boost to the experience rank) AND the afa drops which agreed is going to do best on a unpromoted level 5 mage.

2) Athos in mid, sure he comes late game but he is invaluable in the last two chapters:

a) The two magics he comes with and being the only other candidate besides Canas for the Gespenst make him invaluable as a low resistance boss killer (effective on Lloyd and Linus)

b) Effective Nergal killer (Eliwood and Hector being too slow for the job and Lyn being too nondurable against Nergal's insane magic stat)

c) Effective Dragon killer for the same reasons specified above

3) Oswin is too high and should be below Pent at least

a) He's a knight and so has really poor movement in chapter 15 and 16 for example he isn't going to get anywhere and keeping next to Serra or Hector for supports is going to be a real struggle and also if you want him to do any good then it's going to harm your tactics ranking

b) Yeah sure he is a tank for damage but can't Marcus do that just as well with +3 movement

c) Lowen and Hector are better tanks, not only because of their defensive stat which let's face it isn't ever going to be as good as Oswin's but they will inarguably make more use of it with more movement

d) My complaints aren't just about low movement but also the fact that he comes high leveled at an early level in the game, that's going to bruise your experience ranking when you've already got Marcus doing his work

e) Sain and Kent may be less durable than Oswin but they will definitely help out more with the rankings (tactics especially)

f) Erk has more utility than Oswin simply due to the fact that he uses magic which can help a lot with the early general bosses (who probably won't be able to take even a hit from Oswin) although Oswin could use the Heavy Spear but that damages funds, potential doubling and would take too long with Oswin's speed)

g) Pent has more utility than Oswin because of the high B rank in staves so he can help out with your experience ranking as well as with combat because of his elfire and at the same time (yes coming back to movement) he can use the +2 movement to finish off bosses

Right that's it for my first ever serenes forest post (please don't get angry)

[Colonel M]

b) Incontrovertibly, the best candidate for afa drops (considering she comes so late)

Actually, I would argue her the worst since that requires waiting for a long time. The Afa's Drops are in Chapter 23X, and Nino doesn't come until roughly Chapter 28. That's roughly 5 chapters that the item just sort of... sat there. I mean, what about a unit like Heath that comes at a more reasonable time and has other perks than bringing EXP Rank to the table (decent combat after a short period of time and definitely helps with Tactics Rank)? We could put it on Rath and Farina too if we really want to, since they're still unpromoted. I guess they aren't getting awesome EXP, but Nino getting awesome EXP after a while requires killing promoted units, and they still exist throughout the course of 24-28. Then we could train almost any other unit again, though I highly recommend just going to 32X and padding your EXP rank there.

I mean, you didn't really present any disadvantage to Isadora. Isadora comes in with decent bases, weapon triangle control, and obviously helps with the tactics rank thanks to being on a horse. She saves a promotion, which is a positive to funds ranking, and she only has the minor weakness of maybe wanting to touch that Angelic Robe and not gaining EXP as quickly; however, she's still --/1, so she is providing some benefit to the rank when she enters battle. And don't forget that she ORKOes at a decent pace, so she's helping combat rank a lot more than Nino does for a while.

[Geriba]

2) Athos in mid, sure he comes late game but he is invaluable in the last two chapters:

a) The two magics he comes with and being the only other candidate besides Canas for the Gespenst make him invaluable as a low resistance boss killer (effective on Lloyd and Linus)

b) Effective Nergal killer (Eliwood and Hector being too slow for the job and Lyn being too nondurable against Nergal's insane magic stat)

c) Effective Dragon killer for the same reasons specified above

Didn't you just hype up Nino for contributing to the experience rank? Using Athos for anything other than chip damage could potentially cost you hundreds of experience. He's useful, especially against the Dragon, but how much token contributions for one chapter matter is questionable.

As for Oswin, he's invaluable during the earlygame, which is universally considered the most difficult part of an S-Rank HHM run. The pace of HHM is also slowed down comparatively, making his lower move less of an issue.