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OrangeCrush980

Who's the best trueblade?

Who's the best trueblade?  

112 members have voted

  1. 1. Who's the best trueblade?

    • Edward
      19
    • Zihark
      25
    • Lucia
      0
    • Mia
      58
    • Stefan
      4
    • They all suck
      6


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By having him join the GMs you make the DB chapters harder, he's not needed at all in the GMs as the GMs are already raping without him.

Plus it rips out his support making Mia >> Zihark for like 6 chapters. I suppose you could bring Jill over too and have them supported, but that hurts the DB even more and it locks him to Earth x Thunder, and with his luck deficit and lower spd base (and still lower base level) he'll probably never beat Mia with Ike for avoid anyway. Basically Z's gonna lose either way.

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Mia caps 5, and Zihark does not have better availability. By they time they're both available, Zihark will have some catching up to do, most likely.

Yeah, Elincia and the Herons are much better options.

In one round of combat (should she double, which... she will), she has a 48.16% chance of Adept activating at least once with her base speed.

Yes, but she doesn't really need it when another spell is certainly more valuable than a strike when usually enemies not named Part IV have bad Res and that Ilyana's spped is too low to get her to double for a good while.

By having him join the GMs you make the DB chapters harder, he's not needed at all in the GMs as the GMs are already raping without him.

I'm not zone for having him fight against the clan that he normally admires and more bonus exp for him anyway. =3

Plus it rips out his support making Mia >> Zihark for like 6 chapters. I suppose you could bring Jill over too and have them supported, but that hurts the DB even more and it locks him to Earth x Thunder, and with his luck deficit and lower spd base (and still lower base level) he'll probably never beat Mia with Ike for avoid anyway. Basically Z's gonna lose either way.

It's not like you cannot manage the later DB chapters without them. Miccy's group has NPC units to help out in those chapters anyway if all else fails.

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Obviously the DB can make do with Zihark and Jill -- especially Zihark in Hard Mode, since he's a 2HKO'ed piece of shit when it comes to fighting laguz, good riddance -- but the point is that it's harder to pull off if you do that. Also, Nolan is one of the best units in Part 3, and you just took away two of his most likely support partners, leaving him only lesser choices for supports like Volug, Eddie, or Aran.

And then, even when you do that, Zihark still loses to Mia. Innate RES is the only combat parameter where she is not whipping his ass. Zihark is probably unable to double Swordmasters in their first full shared chapter, and actually has the possibility of missing other units if he's SPD screwed (Mia's base SPD makes that literally impossible for her). If Mia is supporting Ike, aka if we assume that the player knows how to play the game, she has ~117 avoid to Zihark's maybe ~102, seeing as how he loses SPD to her, loses LCK badly, and probably only has a B support with Jill, if he even has that. Throw him up against the Generals, and due to his shit STR and the lack of a +atk support, he's like 5-6HKO on the weakest General with the most badass sword that you can make without coin bonuses. Meanwhile, Mia has a realistic chance of being 4HKO on them, aka ORKO with a single crit.

Zihark as best Trueblade, my ass. Prettiest hair, maybe.

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Yes, but she doesn't really need it when another spell is certainly more valuable than a strike when usually enemies not named Part IV have bad Res and that Ilyana's spped is too low to get her to double for a good while.

Except Mia 3HKOs most of the more troublesome enemies. Doubles with 100% hit, so an adept is basically guaranteed to kill something. Ilyana needs a forge and sometimes still doesn't 2HKO (and never doubles). Hence, even with adept she may not actually kill.

How do you think an extra shot from Ilyana is more valuable than an extra shot from Mia? Even if Ilyana is 2HKOing:

Ilyana adept = dead enemy

Mia adept = dead enemy

But Mia adepts more than twice as frequently due to doubling and speed differential.

30 speed = 30% adept => 51% chance of activating at least once in two swings

20 speed (I'm being generous) = 20% adept = 20% chance of activating at least once in one casting.

That's over 2.5x as frequently for Mia to KO something than for Ilyana. Yeah.

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I to vote Mia, then my number 2 would be, *drum rolls* Lucia, if you rng abuse her even a little on prt 4 in izukas chapter she'll cap everything, Mia can plus even though her availabilty isn't there she has an auto support with elincia for avoid and str if my memory serves me right. While eddie or ziharks supports are good they'll most likely never be used. Mia has a decent support with Ike which is pretty valueable at endgame. plus their both cute and lucia felt left out. :3 *hugs Lucia*

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Lucia doesn't have auto-supports with anyone. She has Bonds with Elincia and Geoffrey, but those only add +crit/+dodge, not mt or avoid. Lucia DOES have a ridiculously fast support rate with Elincia, made faster by Elincia's Canto and heal-bombing (and you'd better believe that Lucia is going to need a lot of healing as a level 14 Swordmaster in Part 4), but it's EarthxHeaven and she's only getting avoid and HIT out of it.

Also, your standard for supports is impossibly high if MiaxIke is only "decent". You have to search far and wide to find a partnership that merely works as well as that one, never mind a pairing better than it.

Honestly, I like Lucia, but her Bond supports just keep her from being terrible, they don't make her good. She's never around, and she whiffs her STR cap by a mile even if you do train her. She is not even particularly effective at BEXP abuse, due to her bases. If you want a Trueblade for Endgame that shows up wtflate, you're better off just scooping up Stefan (nobody ever remembers that he exists...), he's RNG-proof and pretty solid, not to mention stronger than even a RNG-abused Lucia can be due to male TB caps.

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its been a couple years so I forgot what elements add what supports. i just knew that elincia and lucias support helped them both get to level cap just, make sure their biorythm is always on good/best with reyson (i think hes the bliss guy)otherwise rafiel. Of course I am speaking in terms of nm mind you i've never tested it on hm. And i don't know why you guys says shes so bad. My Lucia capped HP,str,mag(lol),skil,spd,luk and Res. on three different playthroughs. And she can use vantage and adept just as effecient as the others can. The very fact she can be trained on Izukas map makes her more trainable then the rest. Granted the others can to but the only other one with any hope of surviving that far is mia unless you baby zihark and eddy with exp that should go to other characters like Jill (at least imo), and mia should always be on ike's team. Stefan is only good for taking his sword imo. even if he is a smexy beast.

Edited by XxWolfxX

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its been a couple years so I forgot what elements add what supports. i just knew that elincia and lucias support helped them both get to level cap just, make sure their biorythm is always on good/best with reyson (i think hes the bliss guy)otherwise rafiel. Of course I am speaking in terms of nm mind you i've never tested it on hm. And i don't know why you guys says shes so bad. My Lucia capped HP,str,mag(lol),skil,spd,luk and Res. on three different playthroughs. And she can use vantage and adept just as effecient as the others can. The very fact she can be trained on Izukas map makes her more trainable then the rest. Granted the others can to but the only other one with any hope of surviving that far is mia unless you baby zihark and eddy with exp that should go to other characters like Jill (at least imo), and mia should always be on ike's team. Stefan is only good for taking his sword imo. even if he is a smexy beast.

HM is just harder. Also, most of the people here try to beat things quickly so 4-5 is usually like 5 turns or less rather than 15+ to kill as many laguz as possible. And with bexp less plentiful in HM it's not as easy to cap ram everyone without a bunch of resets and it's certainly harder to even reach 20/20/20 so 20/20/10 stats mean a lot more than 20/20/20 stats unless you take extra turns on each map.

Mia tends to be the easiest to get good stats for because she caps hp/str/skl/spd/def so early and she's around for so long.

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HM is just harder. Also, most of the people here try to beat things quickly so 4-5 is usually like 5 turns or less rather than 15+ to kill as many laguz as possible. And with bexp less plentiful in HM it's not as easy to cap ram everyone without a bunch of resets and it's certainly harder to even reach 20/20/20 so 20/20/10 stats mean a lot more than 20/20/20 stats unless you take extra turns on each map.

Mia tends to be the easiest to get good stats for because she caps hp/str/skl/spd/def so early and she's around for so long.

who said anything about 15+ to turn bonus is 10 if i remember correctly. you just put elincia and lucia next to eachother in a grass patch where all the cats/birds etc can reach you. the odds of more then one hitting you are very slim with them having earth support and bond. elincia has amiti and give Lucia 3-4 silver swords, and a left over wyvernslayer. it shouldn't take more then 5-6 turns to get to level cap unless your really unlucky with the dodge rate. Lucia/elincia can mow through 8-12 pets a turn each if you position them right. and the spawn is infinite. when their capped chuck a couple handaxes at izuka with jill (or javelins with marcia) when he has rewarp equipped.

still get bonus exp and 2 valuable characters capped save before every turn, or if your on hm well id assume 5-6 (maybe 7) turns isn't that hard to redo.

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And i don't know why you guys says shes so bad. My Lucia capped HP,str,mag(lol),skil,spd,luk and Res. on three different playthroughs. And she can use vantage and adept just as effecient as the others can.

Your personal experience means nothing. Lucia has a 25% STR growth rate, an 18 base, 10 points to get to cap and only 25 levels to do it in. She's generally going to be 3-4 points short of her cap even at 20/20/20, a feat that's already improbable seeing as how she only has two chapters before Endgame to get close to it.

Lucia is not just as efficient with those skills as the others. Her mt is terrible. She needs crazy shit like Silver Blades just to get to 3HKO even as a base Trueblade, and on stuff like tigers she fails even to do that.

The very fact she can be trained on Izukas map makes her more trainable then the rest. Granted the others can to but the only other one with any hope of surviving that far is mia unless you baby zihark and eddy with exp that should go to other characters like Jill (at least imo), and mia should always be on ike's team.

Zihark is eminently more qualified for showing up in Part 4 ready to train than Lucia is. First of all, he's going to have an A support with someone, with at least +23 avoid, where Lucia spends her joining chapter with no support at all. Secondly, while his mt is poor compared to someone like Mia's, it's good compared to Lucia's. Finally, he can be trained in Part 3 on laguz... as poor as he is compared to the likes of Nolan, Jill and Volug, he is not unsalvageable.

Eddie is a different story, but he's basically a less-dodgy Zihark that's harder to train, when push comes to shove. He does actually turn out rather good, much better than Lucia.

I find it kind of hilarious that you dismiss "babying" Ed/Z with EXP when that's exactly what you're doing to Lucia.

Stefan is only good for taking his sword imo. even if he is a smexy beast.

Your "o" doesn't really enter into it. Stefan starts RNG-proof with good stats, he's not very far from his caps. His STR at base is as high as Lucia's will be at 20/20/19, that's how terrible her mt is. He also has a good chance of hitting 32 STR, which is something Lucia has a 0% chance of reached no matter how much you abuse her.

who said anything about 15+ to turn bonus is 10 if i remember correctly.

Narga said 15+ turns. The spawns from Izuka last for roughly 20ish turns (they are not infinite), and you'll keep half of the turn-based BEXP bonus even though you go over the limit. The clear bonus is where most of the BEXP comes from, not the turn-based bonus. Even in Normal mode, you're only giving up 1250 BEXP, which is barely enough to give a single level up to some tier 2 scrub like base-level Soren.

you just put elincia and lucia next to eachother in a grass patch where all the cats/birds etc can reach you. the odds of more then one hitting you are very slim with them having earth support and bond.

Again: Bond supports don't do that. They add crit, and dodge (crit evade). Also, Lucia's avoid is in need of a lot of help when you're looking at hit rates in the 150-160 range in Hard Mode. Even if she goes into the chapter at 20/20/1 with a C Elincia support, at neutral bio in a thicket she's facing hit rates in the 30's. This is a problem when tigers 2HKO, and cats 3HKO.

elincia has amiti and give Lucia 3-4 silver swords, and a left over wyvernslayer. it shouldn't take more then 5-6 turns to get to level cap unless your really unlucky with the dodge rate. Lucia/elincia can mow through 8-12 pets a turn each if you position them right. and the spawn is infinite. when their capped chuck a couple handaxes at izuka with jill (or javelins with marcia) when he has rewarp equipped.

They aren't hitting level cap unless you just so happened to give them Paragon in this chapter and the last one, too. And also stick around for an eternity, and don't give anyone else kills.

The only major difference between Normal and Hard mode's CEXP gains is that Hard Mode takes a flat -5 off of all hit/kill gains. This would put you about a level behind for every 20 non-goose-egg fights, but the enemies are also higher level in Hard Mode, which mitigates the difference somewhat.

still get bonus exp and 2 valuable characters capped save before every turn, or if your on hm well id assume 5-6 (maybe 7) turns isn't that hard to redo.

Elincihax is good, and worth training because of her flying + Canto and combat parameters with Amiti, but Lucia is no better than the other Trueblades, and in some ways is actually worse.

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yes i suppose i forgot that i did have paragon on them, due to them being the only other characters on elincias team that im using on my endgame team besides Tibarn, and Marcia/Jill (which by then are 20/20/20 or close enough where the bonus exp will top them off). I apologize for leaving that detail out. ya i know bonds add crit, with her +10/20 class bonus ontop off +10 bond bonus ontop of her pretty good skill (and if you forged a silversword ahead of time), you'd have to be pretty unlucky to not crit. if you send her in on a high neutral that goes into good/best, you have a pretty good chance of getting vantage/adept. not to mention astra, or you can walk dangerously and give her near 100% crit with wrath.

Stefan ya he has good growths, and great stats and no exp available to him to get to 20/20/20 before endgame unless you promote miccy then stuff her and sanaki in a corner for endgame, because distortions is the easiest map to level mages due low build (so the most movement other then fliers). not to mention sothe. so thats a pretty logically reason why i just steal his sword.

considering zihark is more then likely going to have a support on miccys or ikes team and its probably not going to be someone who your going to even use in endgame unless you use Nolan, thats a pretty good reason not use him on elincias team unless you don't take advantage of miccys bond with nolan. (unless im mistaken they have one i may be thinking of someone else though) same thing with eddy.

So with that being said setting your "stat statistics" aside, Lucia (imo) still is the most practical 2nd trueblade to use, because unless you kill her before hand out of spite, you dont really have to go out of your way to train her besides maybe resetting a couple times; since elincia's team by default comes with two paradons (geoffrey and Astrid), and elincia and lucia have a C support by default that benefits both of their leveling and a +10 bond for critical hits.

The "logic" you are providing with stephan, and zihark, is basically just saying i'm wrong because theirs stats are better, not really providing any explanation on how your actually training them.

but my major point is, i said i like lucia, i gave a very solid reason why (i apologize for the couple irrelevant mistakes i made), i have successfully gotten her to all the caps i need and level 20/20/20 along with the all the beorc members i used in end game and within the turn counts. And beaten endgame with everyone alive, (except my first playthrough i lost laura)

I wasn't saying eddy/zihark/stefan were bad just very impractical (imo), and thusfar you've just tossed stats and speculations in the air and said shes still going to be worse in the end cuz stephan/zihark have a higher str cap that probably will never be reached. I didn't say you had to like her, but I have obviously do, and proven shes not nearly as poor as you (or anyone else) claim she is. sorry i just believe stat growths always should always dictate everything in FE, her lack of availability doesn't hinder her reaching lv cap and if you fall short by 3-4 str just give her 2 energy drops since no one else really needs them.

Sorry for the rant and if i offended anybody, it wasn't my intention.

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I'm only going to correct your factual errors in this post (open to interpretation). Other arguments I'll leave to whomever wants to take them.

considering zihark is more then likely going to have a support on miccys or ikes team and its probably not going to be someone who your going to even use in endgame unless you use Nolan, thats a pretty good reason not use him on elincias team unless you don't take advantage of miccys bond with nolan. (unless im mistaken they have one i may be thinking of someone else though) same thing with eddy.

Nolan and Micaiah do not have a Bond. Micaiah only Bonds with Sothe, Nolan with no one.

So with that being said setting your "stat statistics" aside, Lucia (imo) still is the most practical 2nd trueblade to use, because unless you kill her before hand out of spite,

If by "beforehand" you mean 2-2, it's actually impossible to kill her there without a Game Over.

since elincia's team by default comes with two paradons (geoffrey and Astrid), and elincia and lucia have a C support by default

Both wrong. You get access to the two Paragon's at 3-12, so they can end up on any team. Elincia and Lucia do not have a C support by default, only a Bond. Their support builds fast, but they still can't have C until 4-5.

The "logic" you are providing with stephan, and zihark, is basically just saying i'm wrong because theirs stats are better, not really providing any explanation on how your actually training them.

Well, usually better stats = better unit, class differences and such aside (these are the same classes, after all).

I wasn't saying eddy/zihark/stefan were bad just very impractical (imo), and thusfar you've just tossed stats and speculations in the air and said shes still going to be worse in the end cuz stephan/zihark have a higher str cap that probably will never be reached.

Stefan actually can reasonably reach his Str cap. Zihark not as easily, but more easily than Lucia. Also, Interceptor's arguments are not speculation, they are points backed by fact and probability, while most of your arguments are simply unreliable personal experience and preferences.

I didn't say you had to like her, but I have obviously do, and proven shes not nearly as poor as you (or anyone else) claim she is.

You can like her all you want, no one will stop you. Interceptor stated that he likes her as well. But this doesn't mean she's a good unit. She gets underrated on occasion, but you are overrating her.

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Ok you know what i'm sorry i didn't get all the facts straight as I said its been a year or two since i played it, but i was close enough to still make them relevant. Since you guys obviously don't agree with my reasoning that I have proved works for me which is really all that matters, since its my opinion, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. Point is, unless i read the topic title wrong, its "who do you think is the best trueblue?" keywords: do you think, i interprit that as what is your opinion. Therefore my opinion isn't anymore right or wrong then anyone else here. Maybe interceptor wanted to take away from jill, sothes, miccys exp and train zihark in their stead. But in no way does that mean he is right or zihark is better. that is just his opinion. Obviously my way, worked for me and i still got great finish times etc. If he didn't feel the need to tell me my way less effecient (or however you want to put it) for whatever reason, then i wouldn't have to get defensive. So interceptor debate all you want, but in the end its still just my opinion vs yours neither right or wrong.

Edit: its whos the best, not who you think is the best. but its pretty much semantics >_>

Edited by XxWolfxX

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Whoa, no need to get offended. Just because we use objective logic in response doesn't mean we're trying to ridicule you. If you come into a topic that asks for the best (though I still think adding a poll for something like this is meaningless) and use personal biases to attempt to prove your own side, you shouldn't be surprised to see others coming in to correct you. The "opinion" defense in this case is and always will be very weak.

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Whoa, no need to get offended. Just because we use objective logic in response doesn't mean we're trying to ridicule you. If you come into a topic that asks for the best (though I still think adding a poll for something like this is meaningless) and use personal biases to attempt to prove your own side, you shouldn't be surprised to see others coming in to correct you. The "opinion" defense in this case is and always will be very weak.

White right does anyone have to correct anyone elses opinion, as if their way better because it was easier for them? Sure the general consesis might say to use mia and zihark, but guess what that far from means is the correct thing to do. Threads like these would be a lot more productive if people didn't waste time telling people their points are wrong, then they get suprised when said person either gets defensive and retialates or just doesn't post anymore etc. A guy before me suggested giving Iiyana adept instead of mia. Doesn't mean he necessarily thought it was better then what someone else said iit just must have helped him somewhere along the line. And he should be allowed express that without being made to feel stupid. How can you honestly say that personal experience is moot and unreliable? How pompous is that? Personal experience is the only realiable thing that helps a player get through a game. I'm so sick of hearing people say "you're opinion isn't worth anything, or your personal experience means nothing" completely holding no regard for the feelings of the person they are talking to. Using averages as guidelines is fine by using my supposedly useless exprerience got me through the game without the help of someone else and quite effeciently I might add. If you think I'm wrong? Get over yourself and learn that everyone has their own way of playing games, you think that arguments weak? Thats your problem, not mine. Again sorry if that seems a bit abrasive, but you just didn't seem to get my point the first time.

Fact is Mia and Lucha were the best 2 on my playthrough, zihark had to rely on killing edge to do any possible decent damage and on the maps you can train him on for me he was worthless, and I opted to push Jill's experience, because her being a flier just seemed all-round more useful. Nolan seemed stronger then both zihark and edward since he can dodge and actuzlly take a hit, and also KO someone without having to always soften them first. Congrats if thats not how you went about it. but it doesnt mean my way is better or worse then yours or anyones.

Edited by XxWolfxX

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Personal experience is the only realiable thing that helps a player get through a game.

Just because someone jumps of a bridge and survives does not mean that everybody else should do the same thing.

If you weren't prepared to defend yourself, you shouldn't have tried to make arguments for Lucia. From where everyone else was standing, that meant that you were prepared to defend your position should they criticize some of the things you said. Sure, every unit has potential - as long as their caps are good - and everyone can max this and that with enough abuse. That doesn't mean that they're the best option.

Personal experience does not mean anything when arguing who's better. In my first playthrough of Path of Radiance, Oscar turned out epic. In my second, he couldn't double to save his life. Personal experience really isn't leading me to any hard conclusion; an objective approach is needed. (In my current, he's rapetastic, which is sad because I don't plan on actually using him. :()

The topic says "Who's the best trueblade?," not "Who's your favorite trueblade?" or something like that. Nobody here has a personal beef with you; these arguments are for sport.

Edited by Sykil

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What you just is slightly invalid to me since you obviously didn't read everything I said. Who is the best is an opinion*, not fact since, its based on percents not straight numbers not all ziharks growths > lucias, i gave a strong defense as to why Lucia was better then zihark on my playthrough. next time try actually saying something useful instead of being smartass. no offense. <-- best way i could put how I was feeling.

for sport or not its still annoying being shot down even though it was the best way for me as you clearly just stated it can change on every playthrough.

*waits patiently for nagra's speech on how im wrong* lol

Edited by XxWolfxX

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White right does anyone have to correct anyone elses opinion, as if their way better because it was easier for them? Sure the general consesis might say to use mia and zihark, but guess what that far from means is the correct thing to do. Threads like these would be a lot more productive if people didn't waste time telling people their points are wrong, then they get suprised when said person either gets defensive and retialates or just doesn't post anymore etc. A guy before me suggested giving Iiyana adept instead of mia. Doesn't mean he necessarily thought it was better then what someone else said iit just must have helped him somewhere along the line. And he should be allowed express that without being made to feel stupid. How can you honestly say that personal experience is moot and unreliable? How pompous is that? Personal experience is the only realiable thing that helps a player get through a game. I'm so sick of hearing people say "you're opinion isn't worth anything, or your personal experience means nothing" completely holding no regard for the feelings of the person they are talking to. Using averages as guidelines is fine by using my supposedly useless exprerience got me through the game without the help of someone else and quite effeciently I might add. If you think I'm wrong? Get over yourself and learn that everyone has their own way of playing games, you think that arguments weak? Thats your problem, not mine. Again sorry if that seems a bit abrasive, but you just didn't seem to get my point the first time.

Fact is Mia and Lucha were the best 2 on my playthrough, zihark had to rely on killing edge to do any possible decent damage and on the maps you can train him on for me he was worthless, and I opted to push Jill's experience, because her being a flier just seemed all-round more useful. Nolan seemed stronger then both zihark and edward since he can dodge and actuzlly take a hit, and also KO someone without having to always soften them first. Congrats if thats not how you went about it. but it doesnt mean my way is better or worse then yours or anyones.

person A: The moon is a ball of cheese.

person B: Um, no it isn't.

person A: But that's my opinion. You can't tell me I'm wrong!

person B: facepalminfinity

person C: 1+1 = 3

person D: no, it isn't

person C: But that's my opinion. You can't tell me I'm wrong!

person D: Hey, person B, let's go have an intelligent conversation and leave A and C to talk about "opinions".

Look, this game is really easy. Especially on the mode you played. Favouring any units will turn them into gods. However, on HM you can't do that (make just any unit a god with little effort). And some units are easier to make good then others. And based on reasonable levels, even you could compare their averages and see what it looks like. Take Lucia v. Zihark, for example. It should be obvious that she isn't gaining a level in 2-2 on HM. By her averages, she has 18 str. It should be quite obvious that if you use Zihark he can get more than 3 levels in part 3. He has 3 chapters and two of them have high exp giving Laguz. And he has 7 chapters in which to build supports before part 4. Hence, he'll be at least as strong as Lucia. Further, he'll have an A support, giving him at least an extra 23 avo. That's a huge advantage over Lucia, who will be base level with no support. It should be blatantly obvious that at the start Zihark will be better. Here's the thing, though: He starts at level 3 and she at level 14. He'll be leveling faster than her (due to lower level) and have better stats when they are both there and he has a better str growth. Which basically means that, by their averages, Zihark will pretty much always be better unless you favour Lucia to the point where you are giving her like 3 times as many kills as Zihark. But if you do that, is it really a fair comparison?

Now, you say your Zihark had trouble killing anything (though in this game you are rich and can buy killing edges in every part 4 chapter, so if you think he is actually good with the things then what's the problem?) and Lucia didn't. Well fine, maybe your Zihark got unlucky in str and Lucia got lucky. But here's the problem: If unit A, on average, were to get 10 more str at any given level than unit B, but someone plays through and just happens to pull the one in a trillion chance of having the differential swing the other way, and then this mystery person comes along and says "unit B is way better than unit A. Unit A can never cause damage and unit B kills everything" is it wrong to say to him: "Except unit A is normally better than unit B for reasons EFG". Or to say "Well, on average unit A is the one without damage dealing problems". Or stuff like that? Well, in this community, most people understand that "Personal Experience Means Nothing" applies to when you get crazy things happen to averages like this. It isn't some personal attack like you seem to think it is where your personal experience is getting singled out and everybody else's personal experience means everything. It applies to everyone equally, and is in no way meant to say that your opinion "isn't worth anything" or anything you seem to be getting from it. It merely states that if you got some weird character stats because of some fluke, that doesn't make one unit better than the other. There's a reason we go to the averages for comparing characters (after debating reasonable levels for each chapter). It's because personal experience, when it comes to character stats, means zilch. Why should it mean anything? You may have gotten lucky with Lucia and unlucky with Zihark. Others will get lucky with Meg and think she's the bestest charactor evar! That doesn't make it true. Why must you take all this personally when it isn't meant that way? Zihark will, on average, have more str than Lucia at any moment assuming you are using them equally. That's practically a fact. The same applies to some of their other stats, especially their avoid due to Zihark having a full support while Lucia has nothing. If Zihark is statistically better than Lucia in every meaningful way, then why would Lucia be better? Is it wrong to claim that objectively Lucia is inferior to Zihark?

Threads like these would be a lot more productive if people didn't waste time telling people their points are wrong, then they get suprised when said person either gets defensive and retialates or just doesn't post anymore etc.

Um, how does this seem logical to you?

Unit A is the best because ABC.

Unit B is the best because EDF.

Gee, how are we going to determine who the best unit is if we aren't allowed to dispute those 6 points? Well, we aren't allowed because wolfie can't take his whittle points getting countered. Gee, isn't this a productive topic. Look at our amazing discussion analyzing nothing and reaching no conclusions.

The idea isn't to get defensive. Do you go to a debate and then when the other person counters your point start acting like this? No! Make better points. The way a debate works isn't that you make a point and then everyone leaves it alone. Don't make a debate post if you aren't prepared to take the counter and either back up what you said or acknowledge being wrong. We don't expect people to get defensive because we expect them to have some knowledge of how the game works. By game I mean the debate thing, not RD. Make a point. Back it up with facts or a story. Facts being stuff like "At level xx this character can do yy against the enemies zz because they have abc stats". A story would be things like "well, sure, unit A may have trouble with dd, but if they go over to this part of the map they do very well against ee and thus they are good here". Or things like that. And then the opposing side doesn't just say "Oh that's nice" and leave it alone. That wouldn't be much of a debate, now would it? Instead, they say "Well, it's nice that at level xx the character has those stats, but that character won't be level xx at that point because the preceding chapters are too difficult for it to gain levels for XYZ reasons". Or, for my other pro example, the con is "Well, maybe, except the unit may die trying to get over there" or "Except units D, E, F all do that better so it is inefficient to try to use your unit in that way". Or stuff like that. That's how it works, and most of us are quite happy to defend our points with objective reasoning.

"If you come into a topic that asks for the best (though I still think adding a poll for something like this is meaningless) and use personal biases to attempt to prove your own side, you shouldn't be surprised to see others coming in to correct you"

If you say things that are easily disputed by statistics or circumstances of the game, you can obviously expect somebody to point it out. That doesn't mean we are trying to ridicule you. That just means we saw something with which we disagreed, and this being the type of topic where debate-style things happen, guess what we did? At this point, the expectation isn't for you to complain about getting countered, it's for you to either say "Yeah, I was wrong", or, "well, I disagree because xyz". And then it goes back and forth. That's kinda how it works. If you don't like it, then I'd recommend not making posts in these types of topic.

Don't come into a debate topic and expect to be able to lay down an "opinion" and us leave it alone. That's not how these things work.

(and quit insulting people and then saying "no offence". If you lay out the insult it will be taken seriously. saying "no offence" doesn't make mods ignore the fact you insulted him)

Edited by Narga_Rocks

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What you just is slightly invalid to me since you obviously didn't read everything I said. Who is the best is an opinion*, not fact since, its based on percents not straight numbers not all ziharks growths > lucias, i gave a strong defense as to why Lucia was better then zihark on my playthrough. next time try actually saying something useful instead of being smartass. no offense. <-- best way i could put how I was feeling.

for sport or not its still annoying being shot down even though it was the best way for me as you clearly just stated it can change on every playthrough.

*waits patiently for nagra's speech on how im wrong* lol

Wow, nevermind. You're a lost case. I was trying to get you to understand that debate is kind of what this topic is about, but... whatevs.

Lawl.

For the record, I actually read every word you said.

I digress.

Edited by Sykil

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@nagra: lol i have nothing really to say to that, my point was obviously completely missed. Sorry if the thread having a poll was completely and utterly misleading me to the fact that this was a place where people share opinions not debate them about characters on hardmode (which in no way pointed out ahead of time). So you know whatever.

@sykil: sorry it was my bad, generally when someone posts a poll to me that isn't meant to be a debate.

I thought thats what the "fire emblem debate" sub forum was used for. oh and nagra id really appreciate it if you wouldn't mock me. its not my fault he posted the topic in the wrong area with a poll. kaythx

Edited by XxWolfxX

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@nagra: lol i have nothing really to say to that, my point was obviously completely missed.

I read Narga's post; he understands where you are coming from. Your essential argument is that we as a community ought to refrain from pointing out the obvious flaws in other people's logic, so as to not hurt their feelings. He disagrees, arguing that it results in boring, content-free analyses that reach no interesting conclusions. He doesn't misunderstand you, he disagrees with your interpretation of events. This might blow your mind, but it's possible to disagree with someone without "missing the point".

Opinions are not sacred cows around here.

Sorry if the thread having a poll was completely and utterly misleading me to the fact that this was a place where people share opinions not debate them about characters on hardmode (which in no way pointed out ahead of time). So you know whatever.

Let me clue you in on something that you will find useful both on the internets, and in real life: nobody likes non-apology apologies. In fact, much of the time you'll find that they piss people off. For example, suppose that I punched someone in the face, and then apologized:

Correct: "I'm sorry for punching you, it was wrong of me to do that."

Mediocre: "I'm sorry for letting my anger get the best of me."

Wrong: "I'm sorry that you're mad at getting hit."

XxWolfxX: "I'm sorry that you put your face in the way of my fist."

Hopefully this will help you understand the distinction.

I thought thats what the "fire emblem debate" sub forum was used for. oh and nagra id really appreciate it if you wouldn't mock me. its not my fault he posted the topic in the wrong area with a poll. kaythx

The debate subforum is for formal debates between two people, to be judged by their peers at the end. Informal debates pop up whenever people disagree on things, but tend to happen most often in tiering threads and "who is better?" threads like this poll. LunaOrangeCrush is a known troll, but his intentions for the thread don't diminish the fact that arguing about the best Trueblade is a subject upon which reasonable people can disagree.

I have responses to the things that you've posted WRT Lucia, but I don't see this going anywhere fast.

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White right does anyone have to correct anyone elses opinion, as if their way better because it was easier for them? Sure the general consesis might say to use mia and zihark, but guess what that far from means is the correct thing to do. Threads like these would be a lot more productive if people didn't waste time telling people their points are wrong, then they get suprised when said person either gets defensive and retialates or just doesn't post anymore etc. A guy before me suggested giving Iiyana adept instead of mia. Doesn't mean he necessarily thought it was better then what someone else said iit just must have helped him somewhere along the line. And he should be allowed express that without being made to feel stupid. How can you honestly say that personal experience is moot and unreliable? How pompous is that? Personal experience is the only realiable thing that helps a player get through a game. I'm so sick of hearing people say "you're opinion isn't worth anything, or your personal experience means nothing" completely holding no regard for the feelings of the person they are talking to. Using averages as guidelines is fine by using my supposedly useless exprerience got me through the game without the help of someone else and quite effeciently I might add. If you think I'm wrong? Get over yourself and learn that everyone has their own way of playing games, you think that arguments weak? Thats your problem, not mine. Again sorry if that seems a bit abrasive, but you just didn't seem to get my point the first time.

Most of the time the people here try to give advice. When you shove it back up their faces, then we get hostile. Don't blame us, blame yourself.

The guy who said give Ilyana Adept is wrong. You're never getting any use out of it on her. It's like giving Shinon Resolve - mostly pointless, doesn't help much, works better on other people.

Personal experience is COMPLETELY unreliable. If that were true, Nolan and Neph are on top of top of whatever tier list I make. Why? Because they capped all their stats. And for that matter, then I can go around telling people to put Geoffrey in top tier just because he got a perfect level on my game. Or I can ask for Haar to be in bottom for getting a +Mag only level up.

See how it's unreliable now?

Completely no regard for feelings? Look at your posts for an example of that. You come up with whatever stuff we have to say, we point out your mistakes. You get pissed, we get pissed, so on and so forth until everyone gets banned.

Fact is Mia and Lucha were the best 2 on my playthrough, zihark had to rely on killing edge to do any possible decent damage and on the maps you can train him on for me he was worthless, and I opted to push Jill's experience, because her being a flier just seemed all-round more useful. Nolan seemed stronger then both zihark and edward since he can dodge and actuzlly take a hit, and also KO someone without having to always soften them first. Congrats if thats not how you went about it. but it doesnt mean my way is better or worse then yours or anyones.

Dude, it's pretty hard to get reliable ORKOs on HM. Best thing is like Transfer Ike in Part 3 or something, and probably Part 4 for trained guys. And Royals not called Kurthnaga.

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I'm so sick of hearing people say "you're opinion isn't worth anything, or your personal experience means nothing" completely holding no regard for the feelings of the person they are talking to. Using averages as guidelines is fine by using my supposedly useless exprerience got me through the game without the help of someone else and quite effeciently I might add.

Fact is Mia and Lucha were the best 2 on my playthrough

Depends on what you mean efficient, and was it on HM?

Also, once again. PEMN when it comes to debating. You're trying to convince Lucia is a better unit than Mia AND Zihark and they're the best swordmasters you could get in RD.

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I must admit, I am surprised that Lucia has gotten no votes at all. I fully expected her to receive at least 1 for her part 2 performance or something (not a FE10 expert). Honestly, the notion that both Stefan and Edward got votes while she got nothing is a tad shocking. I honestly considered her the second best TB in the game in my PE... though I can see how that happened due to Zihark's **** luck at dodging. Eh. Either way, I don't really have anything to add to this topic aside from the observation that Lucia has no votes and it's a bit shocking.

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Lucia would get some props if it were possible to have polls where people ranked the choices in order of preference. The problem is that Lucia fits only one niche, and it's not gameplay related.

Mia is your flat-out best Hard Mode Swordmaster in terms of significant contributions over the long term, and that's probably where she got a lot of her votes. Zihark has the pre-promote thing going for him, his affinity embodies what a lot of people like about Swordmasters, plus he turns out decent. Eddie represents the scrappy growth unit that's around for a while, spends some time being invaluable, and pays off in the long term if you put up with his bullshit. Stefan is your RNG-proof Endgame filler unit, it's impossible for him to suck because of his bases.

Lucia doesn't have those things; her natural constituency consists of people who like blue hair and tits. This makes it hard to get a "best" ranking from people who take themselves seriously.

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