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Snowy_One

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SlaveBlade's point, and OtherPhase's point conflict with each other. That's interesting.

If we make longer posts we'll be catering to outsiders rather than ourselves and we'll still discourage newcomers because not only will we have thousands of posts, but if they're all incredibly detailed and full of context(which in interaction will cause multiple explanations of the exact same scenario), then no one will have the patience to read it all anyway.

IMO, you're doing it very wrong if you still have 1000s of posts that are super descriptive. I would actually be very intrigued if you could give that much detail in such a short time. And please, catering to outsiders instead of yourselves? That's a cop out.

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We're one big dysfunctional family. It's no cop out. This was never intended to be a fanfic for the pleasure of outsiders. If you want to enjoy the rp, best to join it.

As for thousands of posts. Being too descriptive causes ridiculous interaction complications and can be very destructive to its own purpose.

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We're playing a game, not putting on a play. The whole point is for us (the current players) and whoever joins us to have fun. This is starting to look a bit like "Your RP is bad and you should feel bad."

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We're playing a game, not putting on a play. The whole point is for us (the current players) and whoever joins us to have fun. This is starting to look a bit like "Your RP is bad and you should feel bad."

Maybe you should stop taking it as a slander against your RP and instead as a healthy criticism that should be explored, perhaps?

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The only people who would be there to explore it are Kai and a couple of others. Kiryn actually get's pretty damn descriptive in her posts without making them too long.

Yes the Phoenix has a compliment for every member of the rp ^_^

EDIT:

BTW

Kiryn=Clockwork Alch

Edited by Phoenix

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I think the issue is that our system works well enough for us, and we're enjoying ourselves (which is the point), and yet changes keep being called for that, from the perspective of what we're trying to do (just have fun), are a bit of fixing things that aren't broken. Besides, we do have some other problems, that we are still working on, that are bigger than this.

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The only people who would be there to explore it are Kai and a couple of others. Kiryn actually get's pretty damn descriptive in her posts without making them too long.

Yes the Phoenix has a compliment for every member of the rp ^_^

EDIT:

BTW

Kiryn=Clockwork Alch

And they should explore it. It can only help as far as I know, so long as it doesn't go off on unrelated tangents...

EDIT: Also, CA, why has none of it been brought up in the Feedback topic? I mean, christ, you were all super focussed on getting me here >_>

Edited by SlaveBlade

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Maybe you should stop taking it as a slander against your RP and instead as a healthy criticism that should be explored, perhaps?

It would be more helpful criticism if you would explain why less posts that are longer> more posts that are shorter. So far, all I've seen is "description is good", which has been countered with "unecessary description that doesn't add anything doesn't need to be there"

Frankly, I think you're just used to other RPs which have much longer posts, but tend to have less of them. You make the assumption that shorter posts= less interaction and development, but it's simply spread out more for reasons already stated.

Agrees with Kiryn on the fun part. If it works for us, I see no need for change.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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It would be more helpful criticism if you would explain why less posts that are longer> more posts that are shorter. So far, all I've seen is "description is good", which has been countered with "unecessary description that doesn't add anything doesn't need to be there"

Frankly, I think you're just used to other RPs which have much longer posts, but tend to have less of them. You make the assumption that shorter posts= less interaction and development, but it's simply spread out more for reasons already stated.

Agrees with Kiryn on the fun part. If it works for us, I see no need for change.

And to that I say: I think you're going for quantity over quality. And yes, description is good, but as to why you think I said you should put in unnecessary description is beyond me. I think it's far more spread out for your case because you people are treating it like it's a race for some reason. I mean, yeesh, 240+ posts in one day for a single topic? You see absolutely nothing wrong with this? To me that screams 'Gotta post before so and so posts so my post can be in there before that person posts and I can interact first lolz'

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In order for criticism to be constructive or healthy it needs to have an important facet. It needs to be capable of building up whatever is being criticized. If I said e_s's RP was 'long winded and more focused on the pubic hair count of his characters and exactly how three beers in a bar were arranged than on character growth and interaction' that would be criticism. Not healthy criticism. Not constructive criticism. Not advise. I wouldn't even call it criticism to be honest because, at least with that example, it's more based on opinion than on anything factual. Please, do not hide your opinion behind the guise of criticism. No one is deceived and it makes you look like a pompous ass.

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I certainly don't see it as a race and I doubt anyone else does either.

I still have not seen any sort of reasoning of why less longer posts> more shorter posts. So far your argument seems to consist of "It's bad because I don't like it" (probably because it's different from other RPs). I don't actually care about your opinion, so your criticism would be taken more seriously if you had some sort of logical reasoning behind it.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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Please, do not hide your opinion behind the guise of criticism. No one is deceived and it makes you look like a pompous ass.

I've been as nice as I can be, sir. In fact, I've only been trying to suggest what can be done to make it better for everyone, but I'm only met with, "we don't wanna".

You know what? That's fine and all, but don't turn the tables and say I'm not being helpful when you're willfully disregarding what I say.

I certainly don't see it as a race and I doubt anyone else does either.

I still have not seen any sort of reasoning of why less longer posts> more shorter posts. So far your argument seems to consist of "It's bad because I don't like it" (probably because it's different from other RPs). I don't actually care about your opinion, so your criticism would be taken more seriously if you had some sort of logical reasoning behind it.

Description gives immersion. Immersion in a RP is key, right? Less description = less immersion = bad. There's your reasoning, it's simple. And good job reading my argument, since you read stuff that wasn't there somehow. I appear to not know what I'm saying half the time now!

Also, a key fact you seem to be missing. Longer =/= better. HOWEVER, more description = better than less description.

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I've been as nice as I can be, sir. In fact, I've only been trying to suggest what can be done to make it better for everyone, but I'm only met with, "we don't wanna".

You know what? That's fine and all, but don't turn the tables and say I'm not being helpful when you're willfully disregarding what I say. Description gives immersion. Immersion in a RP is key, right? Less description = less immersion = bad. There's your reasoning, it's simple. And good job reading my argument, since you read stuff that wasn't there somehow. I appear to not know what I'm saying half the time now!

Also, a key fact you seem to be missing. Longer =/= better. HOWEVER, more description = better than less description.

Way to totally misunderstand what we're saying. We're saying you're wrong because there's already a crapload of description. That and longer posts doesn't automatically immersion. In some cases, it might mean less immersion considering how some people can't climb over that wall of text.

Edited by Red Magister

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I don't have the time to properly weigh in on the issue as much as I'd like to, but for the moment, I would just like to present a case study.

The following posts happened while I was asleep, as posts are often wont to do, and I must admit I was seriously befuddled when I was going over them. My reactions were important, as my character was in the room, and I had to reread this page several times.

I think the main culprit in this particular instance was the fact that Snowy's essential line of dialogue was utterly swamped by pointless drivel assigned to interacting with a separate character, and without that, I was left utterly confused what was going on with Morgan because Cynthia didn't provide sufficient context in her reply. It was clear for the two who were interacting apparently, but not for others who would necessarily need to respond to the situation, and I do find that a few additional words would have helped enormously. Coupled of course with a suggestion of much better delineation in what is going on in posts where multiple entirely unrelated instances are being addressed. (My opinion is that such posts are hideous, and should be eradicated, and each thing properly addressed in its own fashion, but maybe that's just me.)

I'll be back with more later, but I will also chime in and state that my dislike of Phoenix's initial Screenplay posting format is quite likely connected to the issue of lack of surrounding description and context, but that over the course of the RP he's been much improving it, and I don't have nearly the same objections I once did.

For Slaveblade, and the others commenting on issues, I find it would be helpful if you singled out particular instances, or failing that, particular individuals, to make your constructive criticism much more applicable, rather than simply painting the entire RP with one broad brush.

Morgan asked "Who's at the door?"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The mage trio linked hands with Esphyr and Damian and did their traditional magical chant. The power of the Warp staff sent them back to their quarters at TISME.

Eric's book.

Mana Networking for the Common Man

Table of Contents

1) Table of Contents. You Are Here.

2) Preface. Page i

3) The First Entry You Actually Care About. We Don't Even Give The Prior Pages Numbers To Show How Little You Care About Them. What Is Mana Networking? Page 1

4) Restating entry 3 in easier to understand words because there was no way you understood it the first time. Page 7

5) Going into depth about some seemingly minor detail mentioned in 3 that no one cares about and we included just for padding and to jack up publishing costs. Page 23

6) The seemingly pointless history entry that you will not care one bit about until you realize that it involves people using their Mana network in some obscenely cool way which you will try to immediately duplicate and end up in the temple for. Page 78

7) Tear-out excuses for the shenanigans you pulled because of chapter 6. Page 79

8) Wind magic. The magic you think is horribly underpowered until you fight someone who didn't think it was underpowered and got your rear handed too you and will be reading this chapter immediatly afterwards. Page 86.

9) Fire magic. We know you are going to read this chapter first no matter what. Page 127. Facial Reconstruction due to Fire Damage sold separately.

10) Thunder Magic. For the Budding sociopath! Now with 25% more god complex! Page 152.

11) Staffs. Screw it. Covered here. If you are capable of using a staff, you don't need this book. Page 183

12) Dark Magic. Satisfy your inner emo! Page 183

13) Skipped due to superstition.

14) Notes and acknowledgments. Stored at the back so they won't get in your way even though half our knowledge came from the town drunk and we're passing it off as fact! Page 241.

---

"A wyvern." came back the response through the woodwork of the door.

...And this is a mage's book? No wonder they're a bit... eccentric, Eric thought. Anyways, I'll start at page 1...

"I am in no mood for nonsense. If you have business, speak it, if not be on your way."

Edited by Balcerzak

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Way to totally disagree with what we're saying. We're saying you're wrong because there's already a crapload of description. That and longer posts doesn't automatically immersion. In some cases, it might mean less immersion considering how some people can't climb over that wall of text.

I honestly feel I'm walking into a wall constantly. Oh well, I'll go till I pass out.

Read my post again, sir. I wholeheartedly agree Longer =/= better, but MORE RELEVANT DESCRIPTION = better. No doubt in my mind. And I'm struggling to see how I've disagreed with myself anywhere in here. I've kept the same stance the whole time >_>

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I don't think immersion is the primary focus of the RP though. The lack of specific details allows people to use their imaginations more IMO, and RPs are about imagination I think. I probably picture situations pretty differently from other RPers, which I don't think is a bad thing because everyone has a unique perspective.

Some descriptions don't really add anything. Let's say we come upon a cave.

"The cave's mouth opens wide as you gaze into its stony maw. The cave's walls are damp and you can smell the mildew from here. Mushrooms line the floor of the cave, hidden amongst the numerous stalactites and stalagmites. A screech of a bat can be be heard from inside. A pool of still water lies in the distance, dark and murky."

Which I would just replace with "It's a cave". People generally know what caves are and even if they form different impressions of it, it probably won't matter anyway. If the bats for example, are particularly relevant I might mention that.

I'm probably biased in this area due to years of D&D. As a player and DM, the last thing people want to do is hear the DM read long descriptions. Things happening are pretty much always more exciting than descriptions.

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@ This is a race to post first

No, SlaveBlade, you've got it wrong.

It's not actually a race to post before someone else does, at least not all the time. For the most part, you want to get in as many interactions with people while they're online(we have very different online time periods). When we post quick reactions, it's almost always motivated by our time constraints, especially for those of us who won't be on all day. The goal isn't always to cockblock someone else. It's mostly just trying to finish a convo before someone suddenly has to go.

@ My screenplay format

Yeah like I said, I've been adding more context to my posts to try to offset the earlier issues. Live and learn, and when in doubt, imitate Bal's description style B)

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On the other hand, Cynthia. I respectfully disagree. Lightning's major shortcomings with the Cobalt Caves in my opinion, was his failure to properly set them up.

"Well, there's a few every on the wall once in a while, but otherwise, not really... damn, I should've thought of this. We could take one off the first holder in the wall that we find, though."

OOC: Guys, think more of "large tunnels" than "caves".

"Think 'large tunnels'", was all we ever got from him in terms of description. No mention of whether they were large enough for wyverns (an important plot point that bogged us down considerably when he pulled one of his traditional, "I'm going to post an important action that demands resolution, but then sign off before letting you get it" moves).

In fact, I specifically requested more from him in Chat (then Feedback), and was pointedly ignored.

Rein, you're going to have to do a lot better explaining this. Lay out a picture of the situation, describe what we're seeing here.

"Think large tunnels" doesn't tell me jack. Are they naturally occurring, or are they rough-hewn stone that is obviously the result of human construction. How high are they. What is the entrance like, is it wide-open, hidden by brush and trees? How deep underground does it take ups, is it a steep slope and a harsh descent, or is it much gentler. Are there stala(gm/ct)ites, pillars, pools of water. Paint us a picture man.

I would argue that at least many of those descriptions are necessary, relevant, and needed. Particularly in regards to man-made/natural, size, etc. Otherwise we were going into these things completely blind, not knowing anything to expect, and that makes it hard to build off.

Edited by Balcerzak

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I would say that the height is rather relevant, but the other details not necessarily. It might have stalactites or stalagmites, probably does being a cave, but it probably doesn't affect anything either way.

If you have a question about the situation, it can be brought up in Chat, like you did. The main problem here was that Rein got off and never gave you an answer.

Sometimes you go into things blind, but this also allows you to take control of the situation yourself. You can decide whether it's natural or man-made. If people have serious issues with your decision, it can be brought up in Chat.

Personally I'm not a big fan of long descriptive posts in the RP, because I find long descriptions terribly boring. You do make a good point about context though, and I've tried to be better with that.

Descriptions do serve their purpose, don't get me wrong, and eliminating all descriptive posts would be bad. I just don't see the need to attach a description to every line of dialogue.

Edited by -Cynthia-

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In fact, I specifically requested more from him in Chat (then Feedback), and was pointedly ignored.

I think I missed that post in the feedback. They're not supposed to be "super important" anyways and it seemed like people just wanted to get there and go, so I didn't bother. I'm pretty sure I said "Think Diglett's Cave in Pokemon" somewhere. Not quite sure if I did though.

SlaveBlade, the point is that we don't need to describe every little thing just so people who aren't part of the RP can enjoy it. Like Balcerzak said (I think it was Balcerzak), we're not putting on a play.

Edited by Lightning

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@ This is a race to post first

No, SlaveBlade, you've got it wrong.

It's not actually a race to post before someone else does, at least not all the time. For the most part, you want to get in as many interactions with people while they're online(we have very different online time periods). When we post quick reactions, it's almost always motivated by our time constraints, especially for those of us who won't be on all day. The goal isn't always to cockblock someone else. It's mostly just trying to finish a convo before someone suddenly has to go.

If this was a chatroom, I'd be all over super quick interactions because that'd be real time (but CR RPs are another can of worms I'd rather not open). However, your post will not disappear, there's no real timer set, why do you need to post ASAP and as much as possible? You're treating it like a race there, and RPs aren't about getting to the finish line first, unless this one is, in which case, my bad >_>

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If this was a chatroom, I'd be all over super quick interactions because that'd be real time (but CR RPs are another can of worms I'd rather not open). However, your post will not disappear, there's no real timer set, why do you need to post ASAP and as much as possible? You're treating it like a race there, and RPs aren't about getting to the finish line first, unless this one is, in which case, my bad >_>

You didn't even read what I posted before quoting it did you? We're all on very different time schedules in this rp. Take Lightning for example. He's never on for more than four hours. On the opposite end of the spectrum is me. I'm on pretty much all day multitasking and foreting to do my exercises but now that I just remembered I'll take care of that after this post >_<

Point is, it is not a race. We're trying to interact while we can. When we fall asleep situations tend to progress without us. If we were all on 24/7 and didn't have lives outside the rp, then it wouldn't matter, but we do. We have to do what we can while we can, and calling a desire to be apart of the rp a "race" is more than a little inaccurate here. There's no finish line to cross, nobody to beat for first place. Yeah we make ninja jokes but that's part of the rp, having fun and laughing when somebody has to edit their post because someone else solved a problem and they forgot to hit the preview button ahead of time. It's fun that way.

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Bingo. I can't be on for too long, therefore a lot of my posts reflect that. Sure, I could go on and on describing everything Chase does to the most minute detail like how he breaths and stuff, but that'd be really boring and nobody would read my posts.

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Both sides of this argument are using extremes to try and prove points. Try moving a little closer to a middle ground guys. You don't have to reach an agreement, but stop giving wacky examples.

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What wacky examples? I'm literally on all day, and Lightning on average is only on for four hours, maybe more on some days but that's the average.

If you're referring to other examples besides that, I'll leave that to the respective posters.

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