Lord of Azure Flame Feedback

[Phoenix]

2 cents:

From the get go it should have been the place of the characters within the world to determine for themselves who was CORRUPT, who was GOOD, and who was EVIL. Hell, Ixion wouldn't care either way regarding the LoAF and would probably welcome the challenge had he not been only a year old at the time. Others likely form their own opinions too.

Not going to really try to wail on Snowy here but I think it was generally a bad idea to write something in a way that hinted at any sort of true alignment. Calling him not evil is pointless when you could have just called him LoAF and left it at that. Calling Harold corrupt when you could have just left it up to characters to decide was also needless. I didn't mind the titles of corrupt and evil at first since it used to let me know how things were but in hindsight it really hasn't. It's just influenced my posts in the wrong ways. We're far better off just calling things what they are and not tagging little things like corrupt or evil on them just so we can trick the party into hating one thing but not the other.

A good example is us having an absolute hatred for the demons, but now we must go free their boss because ... we just can't beat Helenos. I say let Tanair kill her and call it a day.

EDIT: Inserted a thing.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Phoenix

[Dark Sage]

You know I'd rather read more about Helenos than your Mary Sue known as Mana Snowy. Mainly because you know, HELENOS ACCORDING TO YOU IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE BIG BAD!

Also, please look at Chat so we can determine the punishment for cheating.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Yoshimitsu

[Snike]

2 cents:

From the get go it should have been the place of the characters within the world to determine for themselves who was CORRUPT, who was GOOD, and who was EVIL. Hell, Ixion wouldn't care either way regarding the LoAF and would probably welcome the challenge had he not been only a year old at the time. Others likely form their own opinions too.

Bold: American or Canadian?

This is true. Like, my characters all hate Jace, but others, on the other hand, admire his genius and his vision, which I ended up writing. Had I known initially how he was going to end up, I would've probably made a softer stance on him. As-is, the opinion that he's evil is dependent on points of view.

Not going to really try to wail on Snowy here but I think it was generally a bad idea to write something in a way that hinted at any sort of true alignment. Calling him not evil is pointless when you could have just called him LoAF and left it at that. Calling Harold corrupt when you could have just left it up to characters to decide was also needless. I didn't mind the titles of corrupt and evil at first since it used to let me know how things were but in hindsight it really hasn't. It's just influenced my posts in the wrong ways. We're far better off just calling things what they are and not tagging little things like corrupt or evil on them just so we can trick the party into hating one thing but not the other.

Yeah, corrupt implies evil, and evil implies competent. Which is not the word to describe the heroes in general. The bias is evident, and probably not well-earned. =/

A good example is us having an absolute hatred for the demons, but now we must go free their boss because ... we just can't beat Helenos. I say let Tanair kill her and call it a day.

The hatred is well-earned, in this case. Which is a problem, since we're basically unleashing hell to fight a non-present threat. As for why we can't beat Helenos, apparently fire doesn't work on decaying flesh. I say we cast Aum on her, and rejoice.

Edit: Changed a line.

Edit2: Added first line.

Edit 3: Added edit 2.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Snike

[Phoenix]

@ Cents

American ... and no insurance for another six months :D

@ Jace

He's become the type of character that makes it easier to avoid titles altogether. During the ball the party was beaten over the head with an alternate point of view and it actually did shape some opinions in a righter way than "CORRUPT" ever did.

Makes me wonder what Ixion's title would have been if he had to get one in the beginning based on his own things. "ASSHOLE" most likely.

[Snowy_One]

Ok. Let's say God did that. If God did that to his people to make the world stronger, he'd be the most dickish being ever. People have DIED for this so called "strengthening". There is plenty of evil in the world without putting in a bunch of demons. Take Ra's Al Ghul. Ra's Al Ghul may have good intentions but he is evil because of his actions. The actions being murder and arson and the like. A Knight Templar. It's the same with LoAF.

Then it's a good thing that he is not God, eh?

B) This sounds a bit unfair to pin on just Sage, considering that various other people, myself included, have been influencing the plot

There is a difference between influencing a plot, and outright trying to muscle it into what you think is right.

The very premise of the demons killing people off and taking weapons and such totally shatters this image. If he isn't so bad, then why can't his servants just go and ask the wielders to set their boss free? Like, literally, all it would take is a demon in human for, asking one of the wielders to go hit the seal, and boom, the lord is free. Why is it that they go and sever and try to kill the wielders?

When you have taken up the role of being the source of demons within the world, regardless of your reasoning, people are not exactly eager to help you out.

So, the Dragon that doesn't do anything is the big villain? So far, I'd argue that any of the recurring human antagonists are more evil then her. And, why can't you post with her more?

She's currently tied up in a fight with Kiryn's dragon. I would adore to finish it, or at least get some closure with it so that Helenos can start rampaging about again.

This is where evil versus evil comes into play. Now, with the LoAF around, there was all but three nations that got razed, and people died left, right, center. Altogether, a crapsack world. Now, without him, there is relative peace in play, despite bandits and other misfortunes which afflict most. A bit of a crappy would, but not as bad as the constant death and destruction before the LoAF. Kaileen made the right choice, I would say, since the death toll is drastically lower than the one during the LoAF years. If you say otherwise, I'm going to have to ask what substance you are on.

And I'd like to argue that in some ways, the 'corrupt' heroes are more productive than the uncorrupt. I mean, Jace is trying to unite the continent under his rule, which could help restore the continent, whereas Kaileen has been doing absolutely nothing, from day 1.

You are judging from a post-effect world as well as ignoring motives. Before the LoAF came about, it's likely things were even worse than they are now. After all, he rose up and it took until only three nations remained intact for them to finally be able to do something about it.

You called Kelas weird and uninteresting, so, you have Sage there. As for the unoriginality comment, if you haven't noticed, originality is overrated, to an extent, when regarding characters. If they're characterized solidly, it isn't a problem. If they aren't, well, that IS a problem. Said problem affects the quality of writing and story, which is never good.

I wish I had more time to spend writing to be sure. I don't. As I'm writing this, the only reason I even have time was because a storm took down the net long enough to get raid-booted.

Has anyone informed you that cliches are not bad? In this case, it makes no sense whatsoever for him to be non-evil, unless you're going to turn around and say that his minions are misguided, which creates another slew of problems altogether. If you make him evil, on the other hand, we might actually have a glint of a plot. This isn't an issue with the originality. It's an issue of writing.

There is a difference between a cliche and a trope. Cliche's are bad. They make a story boring, obvious, uninteresting, and the like. A crutch if you will. A trope is simply how things are and defining traits of something. If tropes are walking/running, then cliche's are hobbling along on one leg while using crutches.

Well, in this particular case, if you wish to step down, why are you arguing antagonists, when another GM could step up and wipe that out?

No one has accepted, or even tried to become another GM. Until that happens, I still am the acting GM and have to keep going.

[Dark Sage]

Then it's a good thing that he is not God, eh?

He's a godlike being and you're defending him.

There is a difference between influencing a plot, and outright trying to muscle it into what you think is right.

Yes, how dare I actually want things to make sense on a narrative level.

When you have taken up the role of being the source of demons within the world, regardless of your reasoning, people are not exactly eager to help you out.

Of course not, SINCE HE JUST TRIED TO WIPE THEM OUT! WHICH IS EVIL! What part of that do you not get?

She's currently tied up in a fight with Kiryn's dragon. I would adore to finish it, or at least get some closure with it so that Helenos can start rampaging about again.

So give closure and stop focusing on Mary Sue.

You are judging from a post-effect world as well as ignoring motives. Before the LoAF came about, it's likely things were even worse than they are now. After all, he rose up and it took until only three nations remained intact for them to finally be able to do something about it.

Yes because unity through fear and genocide is better than unity through peace.

There is a difference between a cliche and a trope. Cliche's are bad. They make a story boring, obvious, uninteresting, and the like. A crutch if you will. A trope is simply how things are and defining traits of something. If tropes are walking/running, then cliche's are hobbling along on one leg while using crutches.

Which, coincidentally, you're using cliches and still make no sense.

[Kanami]

Going to sideline Phoenix for a bit and respond to the overwhelming comments from others.

@Kiryn, yes it's more about arguing views and attitudes towards LoAF, opposed to arguing about the LoAF itself. Arguing Selizara was crap isn't going to go anywhere since it's near unanimous. Phoenix has insisted I am talking to "him" and not the others so why not? I'll address others as they arrive. As for involved in the argument, it's because you're a participant in LoAF.

@Sage

SQ'ers have indicated already that with the amount of "stupidity" in LoAF it's a lost caused unless everyone changes their attitudes drastically, their solution was to work towards a conclusion and start anew.

@Cynthia

The RP moving slower is a good thing right? Or are you wanting the "100posts a day" days back? They were engaging... but god were they rushed. As for plot hooks, it's not all that important. I mean the plot ideas we did have. Head to Capitol, meet Mana, go swamp. Apparently we had a lot of "plotters" in the RP, so even without Snowy I'm sure something would have come out of it. Jerdon for one is a nation built without Snowy plot right? And from what I've heard people are doing a China colonization with the plot anyway and taking over bits of it as is.

@LoAF

First stating my stance, that I too was appalled that the Demon Lord wasn't evil. A big bad being non-evil is not a trope Snowy, it's your "cliche." And while I personally don't mind cliche's or tropes, as always your plans lack plausibility. Snike's already highlighted how massacring the world is generally the work of evil. And from SQ chat. "Evil for the sake of evil"(Helenos) is as cliche as it gets.

Just a thought that came to me now, but LoAF..... he wanted to make the humans "stronger" right? So.... going over to unseal the LoAF would probably just get you a "Do it yourself" comment. If he does cooperate, it's likely he'd recommence his world cleansing shortly after.

Another problem is demons. Whatever happened to your "demons aren't evil" rubbish? You know, the thing about how they have no "free-will" and are closer to programmed machines then actual characters? Shanice has made me frown from the beginning, but I've yet to see a demon not working with free will.

As for Morigan and Kelas being uninteresting. Have you looked at Mana and Katie? Even Esphyr? Hell Esphyr can be completely summarized as the "Wailing Emo Damsel whore" Original? Hardly. I don't place much value on originality, but there isn't much in LoAF which can outright be called an original concept.

In regards to evil/not evil and there not being middle ground, how old are you? 8? No evem an eight year old would know that the world isn't split into good and evil these days. I think the term "big bad" in itself is unneccessary, why can't there be a collective of "evils?" why does there have to be one enemy which needs to take responsibility for everything that's gone wrong?

@Muscling in on the plot: You're joking right? You're not honestly saying that after Helenos Swamp, and Heading to Ilyphina. Better someone muscle in into the plot and directs in then the crap you had planned.

If you're going to argue the LoAF not being evil, let me rejoin and I'll kill a few PC's. In a sense I'm similar to the LoAF in the sense I tried to get plausibility in violently, and got hated on for it. (LoAF make people stronger and killed them?) Both are apparently evil. If you think otherwise, let me adopt Phoenix idea and blow up a powder keg situated next to Mana. I assure you, my intentions are to make mankind stronger the RP better <_<

Yes, how dare I actually want things to make sense on a narrative level.

I'm glad someone still values sense and plausibility. Since quite frankly "I'm going to spout wings since I don't want to die after free-falling from a skyscraper" seems to be the main way people feel. If people don't like the outcome, the option here seems to be to godmode their way out before hand.