Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Don Draper]

I thought it would be a good idea to start a topic like this to keep character discussion concentrated in one topic instead of across several. This topic will discuss the usefulness of the various characters in the game, so that we can start to build the basis of an actual tier list. At the moment we have nowhere near enough info for a tier list, but this topic may help.

A few things I've noticed from my playthrough and Paperblade's video playthrough:

1) My Unit seems to be best off as a Fighter in Lunatic mode. He's often 3RKO'd in the prologue (Sometimes even 4RKO'd) with +2 HP/+2 Def backgrounds, and can ORKO Chapter 1 Pirates with consistent leveling. On the topic of My Unit, I think its best to rank them similarly to children from the Gen 2 FE4 Tier List (although individual builds will not be ranked; only classes)

2) Palla and Catria seem to clearly be Top Tier Units. Paperblade's playthrough seems to cement this pretty hard.

3) Luke, Linde and Sirius will likely be highly ranked. Rody, Cecile, Cord, Bord and Draug will likely be ranked low

4) Avoid is once again relevant. Paperblade's playthrough clearly demonstrates this, as he often faces hit rates less then 50%

That gives us a few topics to start off with. Feel free to add any more opinions on useful units/class combinations etc.

[Deliriyum]

Are we really ranking this in Lunatic rather than Maniac(?)? Considering the huge difficulty, it seems that it could be reasonable, or make separate lists for a lesser difficulty

[Vyland]

Lunatic should the be basis on how useful the characters can be in an efficient run.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Yaranaika

[Colonel M]

Draug might be able to scratch Mid. While his Weapon Ranks are definitely down the toilet, he at least has a good Spd base and growth behind him. Given that he gets a level in Prologue (P-7 or P-8, P-7 is likely better) and nets +HP or Def he should be able to go fine in Chapter 1 as a Mercenary. He's got good leveling opportunities since Hunter is better than Archer in Chapter 3 and DracoKnights give nice EXP.

Cavalier seems best for Class A, Fighter for Class B as far as My Unit goes. I can see Cavalier being useful since it gives the player access to A Class after promotion and Cavalier can get solid growths behind it. +2 Spd would be my recommendation from speculation. I can definitely attest that My Unit Fighter is a machine though. He could ORKO DracoKnights in Chapter 2 with a Spd proc.

Rody and Cecil are really unsures. Luke looks solid, though I'd have to see what Rody's growths are like. Rody needs +1 Spd and +2 HP or Def to survive Chapter 1. Cecil looks doomed since she needs +4 HP or Def. On the bright side, she's at least got a use in Chapter 2 (Pegasus Knight Cecil + Pegasus Knight Catria w/Steel Lance KOes the Lady Sword Thief).

I think we're going to treat My Units as their respective class. Probably will tier the others too even if they are mediocre in most ways.

Are we really ranking this in Lunatic rather than Maniac(?)? Considering the huge difficulty, it seems that it could be reasonable, or make separate lists for a lesser difficulty

I asked around about how H2 was like. If it can at least be comparable to some of the Hard Modes, I don't see the "major" issue with making a separate tier list for those.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[viyut]

1)My Unit should be Top Tier Regardless of his Class

3)How should Belf and Laiden be ranked then?

Also you need to include the character's supports as a topic.

[Deliriyum]

Draug might be able to scratch Mid. While his Weapon Ranks are definitely down the toilet, he at least has a good Spd base and growth behind him. Given that he gets a level in Prologue (P-7 or P-8, P-7 is likely better) and nets +HP or Def he should be able to go fine in Chapter 1 as a Mercenary. He's got good leveling opportunities since Hunter is better than Archer in Chapter 3 and DracoKnights give nice EXP.

Have you considered the benefits of Pirate Draug?

[Colonel M]

Have you considered the benefits of Pirate Draug?

I've swapped around with both Fighter and Hunter for preference reasons. It's certainly doable, but I'm going to say that Draug is borderline iffy as it is. I'd stick with Hunter if you can since it avoids counterattacks. Fighter / Pirate seems alright though.

[Don Draper]

Are we really ranking this in Lunatic rather than Maniac(?)? Considering the huge difficulty, it seems that it could be reasonable, or make separate lists for a lesser difficulty

There's no reason why we can't have both Lunatic and Maniac lists if there are demand for both, but for now I'd like concentrate on Lunatic. As Yaranaika said, it is the basis of efficient play.

1)My Unit should be Top Tier Regardless of his Class

3)How should Belf and Laiden be ranked then?

Also you need to include the character's supports as a topic.

1) I really don't think thats true. A Knight My-unit for example would be a liability throughout the entire prologue

3?) What about them?

Character supports should also be discussed, yes. They do seem to benefit Swordmasters the most, augmenting their already stellar avoid.

[Deliriyum]

I've swapped around with both Fighter and Hunter for preference reasons. It's certainly doable, but I'm going to say that Draug is borderline iffy as it is. I'd stick with Hunter if you can since it avoids counterattacks. Fighter / Pirate seems alright though.

Pirate Draug seems especially notable in chapter 3 where he can go on the water to get 20 avoid, that and he's got WTA. Give Draug a vulnerary, and he should be able to do fairly well. Berserker seems pretty high priority for Draug as well because he can actually fill out the caps quite nicely.

[Colonel M]

Yeah, I think the biggest problem is someone else really wants that class: Fighter My Unit. If you don't have him though then Pirate Draug is an okay bet.

[Fei Mao]

I wouldn't say my unit knight is a liability since they can easily reach 20 Def (since apparently they are guarantee to gain Def each level) during the prolouge also my unit knight seems to have decent speed growth, so they won't be doubled the only threat in the prolouge for my unit are mages and levin sword thieves. Anyways I'm saying my unit knight would be the best choice for lunatic since after the prolouge he's the most durable person in your party. As for placements it might be like the FE3 list with Paola at top and Sirius below her.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Generic Officer

[viyut]

1)^Once My Unit gets some Spd it should stop being a issue(if you are talking about Mov, keep in mind that archers have 5 Mov too)

3)They are Cavaliers, ready to promote, have a decent weapon rank(C lances)and join as decent units on mid-game. They should be ranked high too.

[fatgamecat]

Any ideas which choices would be best for a fighter my unit? I'm thinking +def, +hp, and spd/skl growth bonus, which would hopefully outstrip a flat +1 or +2 skl/spd bonus eventually.

[grandjackal]

1) I really don't think thats true. A Knight My-unit for example would be a liability throughout the entire prologue

3?) What about them?

Not entirely true, as it's possible to have a My Unit Knight that's got 22 HP and 13 Def. I'm not sure how great that is against Luke since we don't have stats, but I know of Athena. She has 19 might and 17 AS, signifying that she's probably doubling everything but myrmidons and most likely destroying them. With lances nulling the weapon rank bonus, she's down to 16 might, she's 4RKOing you. That goes for those damn thieves.

Not sure how good he's on hunters, but I think the painful parts are most likely the bandits and Shiida (I'm not sure if she has the Wing Spear or not). Not sure how well he does from there, since we have no growths.

I am probably speaking prematurely, since I don't have the game (I'll be importing it though), but I figured I'd throw my thoughts in.

Character supports should also be discussed, yes. They do seem to benefit Swordmasters the most, augmenting their already stellar avoid.

Navarre's got supports with Ogma and Shiida still? Cause he comes to mind instantly with that thought.

[Deliriyum]

Yeah, I think the biggest problem is someone else really wants that class: Fighter My Unit. If you don't have him though then Pirate Draug is an okay bet.

Keep in mind that Pirate!Draug's growth's are:

100 hp

65 str

45 skl

60 spd

40 lck

25 def

looking at average stats, A 20/1 zerker Draug that got every level as a pirate will be

44 hp

22 str

11 skl

21 spd

9 lck

10 def

So it looks like he'll be capping HP, Strength, and Speed by endgame, if not capped, then very close. He'll be even better if he got some levels as a knight or hunter or mercenary because those all improve his weak points of skill, and defense. He has the makings to be one of the best offensive units in the game, when you consider the critical boost(not sure how much it is in this game)

[Rewjeo]

What do we want to do with the prep screen arena? I figure that we can actually just say use it as much as you can since we actually aren't swimming in cash and we want forges. Especially since it takes up our weapon uses and I'm guessing you'll rarely get in a situation where you know you can win.

[Don Draper]

Any ideas which choices would be best for a fighter my unit? I'm thinking +def, +hp, and spd/skl growth bonus, which would hopefully outstrip a flat +1 or +2 skl/spd bonus eventually.

The best setup I tried out was +2 HP, +2 Def and Skl/Spd Growth. Most durable combination, and the speed growth lets him double by Chapter 1.

On the subject of Armor Knight, you guys may be right. I tested it out (+1 Skl/Spd and +2 Def), and he is 10RKO'd by the first soldier in Prologue 1, 4RKO'd by Jagen, and Luke does 1x2 against him in Prologue 2. I'm going to test if he'll hold up. Still, there's no way we can assume that every My-Unit combination is Top Tier.

As for Belf and Laiden, they're mediocre at best. Even promoting them immediately gives them stats barely better then Base Abel.

EDIT:

What do we want to do with the prep screen arena? I figure that we can actually just say use it as much as you can since we actually aren't swimming in cash and we want forges. Especially since it takes up our weapon uses and I'm guessing you'll rarely get in a situation where you know you can win.

Controlled levelups seems to be its only real purpose when a character is at 80-90 exp for example.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ari Gold

[grandjackal]

On the subject of Armor Knight, you guys may be right. I tested it out (+1 Skl/Spd and +2 Def), and he is 10RKO'd by the first soldier in Prologue 1, 4RKO'd by Jagen, and Luke does 1x2 against him in Prologue 2. I'm going to test if he'll hold up. Still, there's no way we can assume that every My-Unit combination is Top Tier.

Well of course, he comes with the problem of being Bandit/Shiida fodder and has the issue of only 5 move. I think the bigger question is "Which version of My Unit is more flexible once class swap comes in?", since we know a vlass like Pirate is plenty flexible. Decent mobility with terrain advantage, and most classes like a built up axe rank.

As for Belf and Laiden, they're mediocre at best. Even promoting them immediately gives them stats barely better then Base Abel.

So they're no good as any other class? What about Robert? He's got built up ranks and access to the promoted B set class, what's he like?

Controlled levelups seems to be its only real purpose when a character is at 80-90 exp for example.

How would we even be able to measure that?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Mr. Francis York Morgan]

Honestly, my personal opinion is that the tier list doesn't really suit fire emblem.

We should be doing a best possible insanity speedrun guide instead. Then using the speedrun guide we can easily define an ultimate team based on whatever factors are deemed most important to helping us speed through the chapters and actually beating the game. Your either on the team or your not. That's how we should be gauging all units. It doesn't matter what a team member does and how much more they do than the rest; all that matters is that what they do is essential to actually beating the game at fastest possible speed even if they die in the process or get benched after being deployed only once.

There's no defined limit on how many members an ultimate team can have. It's basically who you should use and why you should use them and what purposes they serve and when you should drop them.

What that means is Caeda and Tiki in shadow dragon for example are effectively equal on the ultimate team despite one existing for far longer than the other and pulling off far more chapter solo's. Tiki's weakening or finishing off of medeus is required to actually beat the game at optimal play on h5. The funny thing is Caeda also becomes necessary to beating the game at optimal play on h5. How can we possibly place greater value on one unit over another under these circumstances? It's the ultimate seize argument. We could say Caeda has more opportunities and nets a greater gain throughout the game but at the end of the day we still need both of them to beat the game at max efficiency so it's a moot discussion. You could even say Marth is equal to Caeda/Tiki.

Doesn't really matter what I think though since I won't be able to play this game till the american release.

[Don Draper]

So they're no good as any other class? What about Robert? He's got built up ranks and access to the promoted B set class, what's he like?

I haven't really tested them in other classes, but if you want to give it a try then go ahead :P

How would we even be able to measure that?

Essentially its the same as giving a unit an extra kill in the previous chapter. Its also a way of preventing RNG screw-age. Therefore it wouldn't have too great an influence on the tier list.

[grandjackal]

I haven't really tested them in other classes, but if you want to give it a try then go ahead :P

I will once I import this bad boy. Gonna test Robert out mainly to see how the promoted classes treat him, since I know Horsemen have some shit base stats.

Gonna use Raiden however for the hell of it. Bitches gonna GIMMEMAHMONEH!

Essentially its the same as giving a unit an extra kill in the previous chapter. Its also a way of preventing RNG screw-age. Therefore it wouldn't have too great an influence on the tier list.

I shall put it simply. When people sa there is an uncertainty that a certain unit will reach a certain level by a certain chapter, the arena for the most part dismisses that uncertainty?

[Dat Nick]

Either I got ridiculously RNG blessed, or Barst is easily top tier. Capped str, skill, and speed before promotion. Guy would make an absurd berserker...

But like I said, I could have gotten absurdly RNG blessed. I just felt like throwing that out.

And frankly, I still don't understand why 1 str/spd/def makes such an absurd difference between Luke and Rody; it's not like it's always the difference between life and death like it is with Cecile (C1 bandits, but Javelin counters that) Yes, it obviously pans out in Luke's favor, but Steel Lance has 1 more mt than Steel Sword which nullifies the str a bit, plus Javelins counter for the times where Rody's at risk for being doubled (And he's had 8 prologue levels to do decent in, I kind of think it's unlikely he wouldn't have procd 1 spd, but I'll concede that an HP and a defense isn't guaranteed). I'd still say Lances are better than swords overall; Luke's E rank makes it a bit of a big deal that he can't mess around with them.

Kind of challenge Sirius being ranked uber high as well; his bases are only so much better than Arran's, and with his EXP gain being diminished a bit for a lot of earlygame he might need a bit of time to catch up. I'm not saying he's lower than Upper Mid, but he's got problems, problems he didn't have in B2.

[grandjackal]

As a note, I did some number running, and if we're considering My Unit as a Mage? I'm not sure what points would be best for his start. Giving him speed is ineffective, since A. At best he has 5 base speed, and B. He's never getting any more durable with 50% HP and 5% Def. HP and Def are ineffective as well, since at best he'll have like 18 HP and 4 Def, which is one again worse than Cecile durability.

Really, I don't think My Mage will work out well until Excalibur/Resire come into play. Might have B rank when Excalibur shows up, not sure what rank Resire is. Comes with the benefit of being able to sip out to Cleric without harming his future progress, and of course the staff utility that comes with it, but I don't think chip should be worth much early on since I've been told the Archer is actually capable of better at the start.

[Don Draper]

I shall put it simply. When people sa there is an uncertainty that a certain unit will reach a certain level by a certain chapter, the arena for the most part dismisses that uncertainty?

Thats a good way of putting it.

Either I got ridiculously RNG blessed, or Barst is easily top tier. Capped str, skill, and speed before promotion. Guy would make an absurd berserker...

He was incredible in normal mode, but I have a feeling that his usefulness will diminish in Lunatic mode. He seems to need some babying that he didn't require in normal. More info on his viability in Lunatic will be needed, as I don't think it has really been tested extensively.

And frankly, I still don't understand why 1 str/spd/def makes such an absurd difference between Luke and Rody; it's not like it's always the difference between life and death like it is with Cecile (C1 bandits, but Javelin counters that) Yes, it obviously pans out in Luke's favor, but Steel Lance has 1 more mt than Steel Sword which nullifies the str a bit, plus Javelins counter for the times where Rody's at risk for being doubled (And he's had 8 prologue levels to do decent in, I kind of think it's unlikely he wouldn't have procd 1 spd, but I'll concede that an HP and a defense isn't guaranteed). I'd still say Lances are better than swords overall; Luke's E rank makes it a bit of a big deal that he can't mess around with them.

Fair enough. Most of Rody's growths are still unknown so he could potentially be viable along with Luke. Luke's sword rank is very useful for class swapping to Swordmaster though, as demonstrated in Paperblade's playthrough.

Kind of challenge Sirius being ranked uber high as well; his bases are only so much better than Arran's, and with his EXP gain being diminished a bit for a lot of earlygame he might need a bit of time to catch up. I'm not saying he's lower than Upper Mid, but he's got problems, problems he didn't have in B2.

His growth rates seem to be solid enough, sustaining his utility for longer then most prepromotes. Another character that we need growths for to evaluate fully. He is seeing quite a bit of use in Paperblade's playthrough at least.

EDIT:

As a note, I did some number running, and if we're considering My Unit as a Mage? I'm not sure what points would be best for his start. Giving him speed is ineffective, since A. At best he has 5 base speed, and B. He's never getting any more durable with 50% HP and 5% Def. HP and Def are ineffective as well, since at best he'll have like 18 HP and 4 Def, which is one again worse than Cecile durability.

Really, I don't think My Mage will work out well until Excalibur/Resire come into play. Might have B rank when Excalibur shows up, not sure what rank Resire is. Comes with the benefit of being able to sip out to Cleric without harming his future progress, and of course the staff utility that comes with it, but I don't think chip should be worth much early on since I've been told the Archer is actually capable of better at the start.

Paperblade made it work, although he has admitted to it being somewhat of a disappointment (Essentially he has Linde who can take 2 Hits instead of 1). That might require a bit of experimentation with different backgrounds.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Ari Gold

[Dat Nick]

How do you even manipulate the AI into attacking my unit if it's NOT a mage on P-2? Is he really stupid enough to target you on the fort even if he could have attacked Ryan instead?

He was incredible in normal mode, but I have a feeling that his usefulness will diminish in Lunatic mode.

Probably; but his bases really don't seem that bad even for Lunatic (He's 2 speed, a bit of durability, and a horsie down on Sirius, which makes a notable difference, but I'm having a hard time believing that's going to make the difference between "I can get kills and not die from shit and you can't"), especially since he can chuck hand axes/steel right from the start. Maybe not TOP TOP tier, but I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be ranked high if it turns out that Personal Experience might mean something.

Edited July 19, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty