Preliminary Tier List Discussion (Lunatic Mode)

[Don Draper]

How do you even manipulate the AI into attacking my unit if it's NOT a mage on P-2? Is he really stupid enough to target you on the fort even if he could have attacked Ryan instead?

Depends on the class. He'll attack you on the fort if you're anything but a Merc or Knight from what I've tested (If you're a Merc/Knight he'll attack Ryan).

BTW, Caeda deals 1x2 damage to My_Knight in Prologue 3. Lol :P

[Colonel M]

How do you even manipulate the AI into attacking my unit if it's NOT a mage on P-2? Is he really stupid enough to target you on the fort even if he could have attacked Ryan instead?

Pretty much. It seems like they put a "Mercy Mode" on him or something. Wonder why he doesn't target Mercenary though...

[dondon151]

Luke will attack MU if he is a cavalier as well.

[Dat Nick]

Wonder why he doesn't target Mercenary though...

THAT'S why I was banging my head against the wall trying to get him to attack me...

[grandjackal]

Speaking of Cecile, since we aren't taking her seriously as a cavalier, what of Archer?

This comes with some noticeable weaknesses, obviously. Firstly, 5 move, and secondly no counter along with E rank. This will solely be a question of future use.

95% Speed growth. Makes up for the 2 speed deficit from cav (of which she was not even doubling in the first place) in 5 levels, which is stupidly short when compared to...Anyone else ducking into this class. From there on, the archer is faster. Comes to great benefit when promoting her. 5levels is pretty much 5 speed, so in 5 levels she has 12. Another 5, that's 17. 13 levels then a seal, we got 25 speed, which can double dragons, and other prospects such as Swordmaster, or even reverting back to paladin.

There is also Myrm, for which she can be trained early on (I think we have t accept that early on she is being babied). She starts with 14 Speed and 6 Lck, alogn with supports (I believe anyways). I believe she joins some point in prologue. I just want confirmation, can those supports substantiate by chapter 1? Because it's entirely possible she could match Arran's avoid as a Swordmaster despite not having the avoid bonus.

I still don't know much, but I keep hearing Cecile's OHKOd early on. Define early on. Like in the prologue, or chapter 1? If the prologue then yeah, things might be bleak regardless.

EDIT: Ahhh, os Shiida doesn't have the Wing Sear? Badass, My Knight just became a little more awesome early on.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Colonel M]

Cecile dies in one shot as a Myrmidion or Cavalier so...

...Not seeing the major difference here.

EDIT: Chapter 1.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

She's at risk for it ever since her joining chapter in the prologue. Thieves in P-8 are even one rounding her if she hasn't procd enough speed (and with such a bad start of hers, she's going to have issues getting even one level; besides, that only blocks out low-end 13 AS theives)

There is also Myrm, for which she can be trained early on (I think we have t accept that early on she is being babied)

Yeah....but do you really want to make it worse? Now her move is average, it's even harder for her to snipe kills due to her lower strength, and it takes her even longer to get out of getting one shotted. If you can somehow make it work, the payoff won't be worth all the effort.

If we're reclassing Cecile to anything (and we are, absolutely, but I don't think Archer/Mage saves her, it's just kind of like finding a half-full canteen in the desert), it's a chipper class.

EDIT: Chapter 1.

No, it happens all the time in the prologue as well. I've seen it.

Oh, and dividing EVERY possible My Unit class seems like too much of a hassle since it's really just for prologue performance. I vote that three My Units are tiered; My Class A Unit, My Class B Unit, My Female Unit.

Edited July 19, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[grandjackal]

Again, it's probably me just talking prematurely, so I have to wonder what the stats actually are for the prologue. After all, I can't base much when there's no stats to work with.

Might be a bit much to as so early though. We barely got growths.

[Fei Mao]

Speaking of Cecile, since we aren't taking her seriously as a cavalier, what of Archer?

This comes with some noticeable weaknesses, obviously. Firstly, 5 move, and secondly no counter along with E rank. This will solely be a question of future use.

95% Speed growth. Makes up for the 2 speed deficit from cav (of which she was not even doubling in the first place) in 5 levels, which is stupidly short when compared to...Anyone else ducking into this class. From there on, the archer is faster. Comes to great benefit when promoting her. 5levels is pretty much 5 speed, so in 5 levels she has 12. Another 5, that's 17. 13 levels then a seal, we got 25 speed, which can double dragons, and other prospects such as Swordmaster, or even reverting back to paladin.

There is also Myrm, for which she can be trained early on (I think we have t accept that early on she is being babied). She starts with 14 Speed and 6 Lck, alogn with supports (I believe anyways). I believe she joins some point in prologue. I just want confirmation, can those supports substantiate by chapter 1? Because it's entirely possible she could match Arran's avoid as a Swordmaster despite not having the avoid bonus.

I still don't know much, but I keep hearing Cecile's OHKOd early on. Define early on. Like in the prologue, or chapter 1? If the prologue then yeah, things might be bleak regardless.

EDIT: Ahhh, os Shiida doesn't have the Wing Sear? Badass, My Knight just became a little more awesome early on.

I'm not certain but Cecile seems to have a reliable magic growth so she could go mage. Unfortunately she has 0 Def as a mage.

From what I'm told of the prolouge boss stat I don't remember it all btw. Boss: Jeigan 12 speed, Sheeda has 15 speed, Oguma 15 speed, George 15 speed, Athena 15-17(I dont recall).

Edited July 19, 2010 by Generic Officer

[Dat Nick]

Mage has hideous bases though. 3 mag and 6 speed is disgusting. It'll take her ages to piece together any form of offense.

[Don Draper]

Oh, and dividing EVERY possible My Unit class seems like too much of a hassle since it's really just for prologue performance. I vote that three My Units are tiered; My Class A Unit, My Class B Unit, My Female Unit.

I guess that'll be a wait and see type thing. For example, My_Knight is currently soloing the prologue (Athena tinked, lol) but I know he'll be useless once he gets to Chapter 1. He'll have capped Def sure, but even +Spd growth doesn't net him sufficient speed (Mine's sitting at 3 at Lvl 7)

So we'll wait and see how things go.

[Dat Nick]

Actually, that's exactly why I propose to just divvy it up into class sets. It only makes so much sense to tier My Knight when he's going to be shipped off to Hunter or something ASAP instead, you know?

[grandjackal]

I guess that'll be a wait and see type thing. For example, My_Knight is currently soloing the prologue (Athena tinked, lol) but I know he'll be useless once he gets to Chapter 1. He'll have capped Def sure, but even +Spd growth doesn't net him sufficient speed (Mine's sitting at 3 at Lvl 7)

So we'll wait and see how things go.

Allow me a bit of theorycraft.

What if it goes by the FEDS old rules where by chapter 1 he's got enough defense to pull a durability lead over most other people? Or what if he maxes out defense? More often than not, you won't see a lot of people going general muster up doubling speed (in fact, by the time you would cap a general's speed of 23, that's still incapable of doubling dragons even in the dragon's valley).

Issue is, can he pull that off? His other problem is obviously chapter 2 having balls move, but if he can muster up the defense for let's say chapter 3? He can pull away a draco near the start that has a nearby fort for added fortification.

From there on, it's uncertain to me.

Also, what of My Mage's early Elfire?

Edited July 19, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Don Draper]

Actually, that's exactly why I propose to just divvy it up into class sets. It only makes so much sense to tier My Knight when he's going to be shipped off to Hunter or something ASAP instead, you know?

Good point. The only real issue would be weapon ranks, but they probably wouldn't hinder MU for too long (especially with female class, since they get uber exclusive E weapons like Resire and Lady Sword)

[Colonel M]

Here, lemme tell the story to you. Bandits in Chapter 1 have 27 Atk | 10 AS. Max Def AK takes 16 damage in one round. I highly doubt that he's taking more than one, but I guess it is possible to take at least 1 if his Def has grown that much. Then again, we're talking max Defense.

With AK, his biggest advantage is he gets starting Lance Rank, then pops into Hunter for some time to pull some good ol' Hunter -> General, but I feel that Mercenary and Fighter are simply more versatile to make up for it.

She's at risk for it ever since her joining chapter in the prologue. Thieves in P-8 are even one rounding her if she hasn't procd enough speed (and with such a bad start of hers, she's going to have issues getting even one level; besides, that only blocks out low-end 13 AS theives)

Haha, wow, they really took the biggest nerfbat on her. No auto-Silver Lance, dies in one shot. Damn.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

I still don't see the point in saying how no Silver Lance is a "nerf", because face it, everybody saw it coming. I consider it a result of the Weapon Rank system not being retarded, not an actual Nerf to Cecile.

What I DON'T get is why they made her bases take a nosedive. Is this IS's way of saying gingers have no souls?

[Colonel M]

I'm just mad that they weren't kind to people like Barst and Cord in regards to weapon ranks. I mean, come on, E Axes for Cord? He's worse than Draug now for sure!

What I DON'T get is why they made her bases take a nosedive. Is this IS's way of saying gingers have no souls?

Must be the headband on top of it.

[grandjackal]

Here, lemme tell the story to you. Bandits in Chapter 1 have 27 Atk | 10 AS. Max Def AK takes 16 damage in one round. I highly doubt that he's taking more than one, but I guess it is possible to take at least 1 if his Def has grown that much. Then again, we're talking max Defense.

Glad to have this bit of info.

*Runs a bit of numbers in my head*

Shit, Cecile just barely gets OHKOd on a regular basis. 4 levels giving her 21 HP and 6 Def, just ever so barely...

That is, unless mustering more levels is possible.

With AK, his biggest advantage is he gets starting Lance Rank, then pops into Hunter for some time to pull some good ol' Hunter -> General, but I feel that Mercenary and Fighter are simply more versatile to make up for it.

Well, that's true. However, we can still tell the absurd amount of power My Knight has in prologue at least.

Haha, wow, they really took the biggest nerfbat on her. No auto-Silver Lance, dies in one shot. Damn.

Doubling with Silver no less. She needed a good thwack with it, but jesus...A bit much, don't ya think?

[Dat Nick]

D axes is doable for Barst. No slayers, but he's got plenty of time to get access to those (And there's a long period where Slayers wouldn't have helped him, anyway). C would have been nice if only to get Silver quicker, but he can live with D.

That is, unless mustering more levels is possible.

Considering how horrible her start is, I think asking ONE level out of her is a lot.

By the way? I think people are coming down too hard on Cord. He's got C2 utility if absolutely nothing else. I found him rather helpful in that chapter, anyway (3HKOs soldiers and can take 2 hits before dying) He's not great, but he's a free extra pair of hands, and that's always nice to have.

Matthis should just go down to below Est. Seriously. You have to go WAY out of your way to recruit the goddamn guy and all you get is a piece of rubbish for your troubles. I don't even want to hear that "recruitment costs shouldn't cost against a character" because anybody who's said that must not have tried to recruit the asshole. If nothing else? It's absurdly time-consuming.

Edited July 19, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Colonel M]

I did use Cord in Chapter 2, but he didn't really add a whole lot to the field. He was pretty minor, and the only reason he became necessary was because I put Ryan as a Mage instead of an Archer. He's okay to have in Chapter 2, but he just seems outclassed in almost every way by Draug. Only advantage is the Triangle Attack... which isn't much.

[grandjackal]

I did use Cord in Chapter 2, but he didn't really add a whole lot to the field. He was pretty minor, and the only reason he became necessary was because I put Ryan as a Mage instead of an Archer. He's okay to have in Chapter 2, but he just seems outclassed in almost every way by Draug. Only advantage is the Triangle Attack... which isn't much.

No hammer triangle for Lang? I think that would save a lot on time and resources, and if I recall, triangle always hits. Hell, they'd get there at the same time My Unit did.

Then again, I dunno how hard Lang actually is.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Etzel's Hips

[Colonel M]

No hammer triangle for Lang? I think that would save a lot on time and resources, and if I recall, triangle always hits. Hell, they'd get there at the same time My Unit did.

Barst isn't around until Caeda's joining chapter.

[grandjackal]

Barst isn't around until Caeda's joining chapter.

Which means you will have all 3 of them by Lang's chapter.

[Momo]

Matthis should just go down to below Est. Seriously. You have to go WAY out of your way to recruit the goddamn guy and all you get is a piece of rubbish for your troubles. I don't even want to hear that "recruitment costs shouldn't cost against a character" because anybody who's said that must not have tried to recruit the asshole. If nothing else? It's absurdly time-consuming.

Julian should too then, since he forces you to waste about 10 turns just getting to him and back.

[Dat Nick]

I did use Cord in Chapter 2, but he didn't really add a whole lot to the field. He was pretty minor, and the only reason he became necessary was because I put Ryan as a Mage instead of an Archer. He's okay to have in Chapter 2, but he just seems outclassed in almost every way by Draug. Only advantage is the Triangle Attack... which isn't much.

I didn't say he was wtfpwnsome utility. I just said he was contributing something to the field. And since he can be nabbed on Turn 1, why wouldn't you?

I don't really buy "Outclassed by Draug" as an argument, btw. Draug's growths got souped up absurdly. (Smash might say he's inherited Gatrie's growth spread) I can see how he has trouble because of eh bases and all, but that's not really a good argument. Draug's mid tier for being growths+early join if nothing else. Cord may or may not pass for mid-low.

Julian should too then, since he forces you to waste about 10 turns just getting to him and back.

Well, due to the whole Lena deal, there's actual incentive to recruit Julian whereas there isn't any for Matthis. But if that's not being considered, then yeah, I 100% agree.

Besides, it's also worth mentioning the no Julian equals no thieving utility whatsoever, because No Julian pans out to no Rickard. I guess thieving's a bit less useful because of the Thief staff, but that's only 5 uses.

Edited July 19, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty